Hot Water System is Leaking (uh-oh) !

[dammit]

Hi All

Got a bit of a problem with the hot water system I am hoping someone can give me some advice on solving...

I went away for a weeks holiday so silly me decided to turn the Gas HWS off rather than leaving it on for a week when no ones home to save money. Before I went away there was no leaks and it was working A1 fine. I turned the dial to VACATION and then turned off the gas/pilot light. I didn't turn off the water inlet tap because I didn't think it was necessary.

Anyways upon returning home and firing up the HWS again, it now constantly leaks, all day and night, just a bit of a drip/puddle at the bottom of it (its outside so no great deal). I dont know if its just a coincidence this has happened after I fiddled with the controls and went away or just bad timing. I pulled the front cover off to try and have a good look but because it has insulation wrapped around it, its hard to tell where exactly the leak is coming from. (does this insulation have a join in it somewhere? should I completely dismantle the casing to try and find it so i can remove the insulation to try and find what/how it is leaking?) Can these sort of leaks be repaired like with epoxy or a patch kit or something like that or is it once you get a leak its had it.

I am not sure how old the system is because we only recently bought the house, but the relief valve has a tinfoil seal thing on it which says 4/10/2005 so I assume the HWS was serviced then and the relief valve replaced (the brand of valve said remanufactured so i don't think its the original one, which would mean the HWS is more than 2.5yrs old).

When I pulled the cover off to do some investigating, I can see a drip of water approx every 3 seconds dripping, and its coming from the lower LHS, the insulation below the water inlet pipe thing is wet but above it is dry. I checked the join where the copper pipe hooks up with the heater and it doesn't appear to be dripping, although I can only check the join that is about 4cm away from the actual tank as the insulation obscures the real join (i don't know if this would be a screw fitting or weld or ??)

Does anyone have any tips on what I can do to troubleshoot or fix this? Does it sound like the HWS has reached the end of its life and needs replacing? We are planning on selling in approx. 9 months so if we can avoid having to fork out for a new HWS it would be good. Do plumbers generally repair systems or always opt for replacing?

Other than the small leak outside which never seems to go away/dry up, the HWS is functioning fine and providing enough hot water and working well etc.

Pics are attached below of the puddle of water, the connections on LHS (the relief valve is on RHS but this isnt dripping at all) and of the insides (does this look like its extra rusty/corroded for a HWS or do they all look like this?). Thnx for your help everyone :)



http://aycu09.webshots.com/image/48408/2001475107363989767_rs.jpg

http://aycu33.webshots.com/image/47832/2001454831209900025_rs.jpg

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[juan]

Looks like a Rheem 31 series 135litre fast recovery unit. Also looks stuffed but I will let the plumbers here tell u that as I am only a sparkie. Remove the lift off cover plate at the bottom front and the date of manufacture will be on the printed label inside.
I guess about 10-12 years old so probably at the end of its life.
cheers

[Smurf]

I'm not a plumber (sparkie) but it looks stuffed to me judging by the rust stains.

Leaks usually occur because the cylinder has corroded from the inside. The metal would be getting pretty thin in lots of places and at one point its developed a leak.

If left, the cylinder will burst eventually and you'll get its entire contents plus constant full flow of water from the mains coming out. Maybe not a problem with flooding etc if outside but be aware that the unit will fail completely before too much longer.

All vitreous enamel cylinders (gas, electric, solar, heat pump) WILL rust out if the anode isn't replaced when its due. An anode is normally good for about 5 years and costs about $40 (plus labour if you get a plumber to do it).

[davo2310]

as Juan said, the date of manufacture should be on the reverse side of the cover. if it is close to 10 years, its time to replace it. removing the cover and insulation wouldnt be considered, even if you were able to epoxy or patch the leak, it will blow out elsewhere.



Oh and you may need a limiting valve on the inlet, depending on the pressure you have, aswell as a new one will need a tempering valve by law, if you dont already have one....... more dollars..... sorry for the bad news

[dammit]

Thnx for your posts-Damn, I just checked the inside cover and it says date of manufacture 11-92, so I assume it was installed late 1992 or early 1993, which would mean its at least 15 years old? *sobs*

[Ashore]

In Newcastle the about two months ago same day replacement with a new one was $890, same size as yours 95' model and they did it that afternoon, the leak was bigger and needed immediate attention :C

[dammit]

In Newcastle the about two months ago same day replacement with a new one was $890, same size as yours 95' model and they did it that afternoon, the leak was bigger and needed immediate attention :C

ah cool, bugger of things HWS aren't they?

did the $890 include installation and supply of the new unit? thats fairly reasonable. How does this price compare to the instant gas hot water systems? Can you get one of those supplied + installed for under a thousand or are they a lot dearer??

[China]

Go for instant gas replacement you will save heaps on gas

[davo2310]

very unlikely it'll be under a grand mate, insantaneous heater means adapting all the pipework to suit. a rinnai will be around 1200. you may get a bosch or rheem for under a 1000. some will also need a power point, bosch has a hydropower or an external pilot unit that needs no elecricity, but like I said, a tempering valve should be fitted to the bathroom line to make it legal.

[Ashore]

did the $890 include installation and supply of the new unit?
Yes they were out that afternoon and took the old one away , without fittings :U
How does this price compare to the instant gas hot water systems?
Have no idea didn't even price around, had instainious at a previous house and would never go back
:2tsup:

[woodbe]

While you're at it, might as well check to see if you can get a solar rebate on a new solar system.

I'm about to start looking at this, we're in a no-town-gas area, and our old electric hws is about 14 years old...

woodbe.

[Turpy]

very unlikely it'll be under a grand mate, insantaneous heater means adapting all the pipework to suit. a rinnai will be around 1200. you may get a bosch or rheem for under a 1000. some will also need a power point, bosch has a hydropower or an external pilot unit that needs no elecricity, but like I said, a tempering valve should be fitted to the bathroom line to make it legal.

What does the tempering do? I assume it is to do with reducing the water temperature for kids. If this is correct are they adjustable and are they required in all states?

What's the cost of these do-dads?

Cheers.

[wonderplumb]

If you simply swap the existing heater with one exactly the same, you dont need a tempering valve, as the AS3500 states you only need to install one if you significantly alter the hot water pipework, the NSW COP says the same thing. You would have to check the rules for different states.
If you put a rinnai or similar in you will need to change the pipework, 3/4 CW feed, 3/4 HW from the heater to the first branch and 3/4 gas into the heater, and that may mean a different regulator on your gas meter, depending on its set working pressure.
And yes, changing the type of heater will require a tempering valve unless you install an instantaneous unit that is factory pre-set to 50 deg.

[Smurf]

And yes, changing the type of heater will require a tempering valve unless you install an instantaneous unit that is factory pre-set to 50 deg.
Be warned that if you end up with one of these tempering valves installed on the kitchen supply then in practice your hot water is useless. At best you'll be forever running it through the pipes to get the temperature close to usable. At worst, it's useless and you'll be boiling kettles to wash dishes.

Also if the tank temperature drops to, say, 50 then the damn valve still blends in cold water. So look forward to a few rather cool showers especially if you have solar and turn the booster off to save power. The tank may be hot enough but the valve will leave you cold.

It's illegal to mess with these valves but the ones I've seen are VERY easy to adjust if you are so inclined. I don't advocate breaking the law but you do need working hot water in the kitchen especially.

[wonderplumb]

Thats what sucks about the whole tempering valve thing, the code tells you that you shall have not less than 60deg at the kitchen sink and laundry, though an inspector will happily go along with a tempering valve at the heater, which defeats the purpose. I strongly believe that a valve installed on an existing installation should be installed in such a way that it serves bathroom fixtures only................
but thats only my opinion.

[juan]

I have a Rinnai 26 Plus that has had the dip switches set to deliver 60 degrees max. The tempering valve is below the unit but the hot water to the kitchen and laundry is taken off before the tempering valve which supplies the bathrooms.
Works a charm and the water at the kitchen sink is HOT. Controller in kitchen near sink and another in the bathroom.

Cheers

[wonderplumb]

I have a Rinnai 26 Plus that has had the dip switches set to deliver 60 degrees max. The tempering valve is below the unit but the hot water to the kitchen and laundry is taken off before the tempering valve which supplies the bathrooms.
Works a charm and the water at the kitchen sink is HOT. Controller in kitchen near sink and another in the bathroom.

Cheers
The way it should be exactly!:2tsup:

[dammit]

Thanks all, is it definite that this can't be patched or repaired ? Im just thinking because if you have a car radiator leaking, you can do a patch/repair of that to stop the leak and keep driving - yeah it will prob spring a leak again soon but it might last until we sell our house, rather than paying to get a new hot water which will prob not add as much value to the $ we get compare to what we pay for the new HWS... ?

I think from a $ point of view if it can't be repaired or patched it will probably be better to do a straight swap/similar swap rather than convert from like gas storage to instant gas hws

[Smurf]

You could patch it and it would probably work. But if there's a hole then it means the whole cylinder is almost certainly very rusty on the inside (and will still be rapidly corroding away assuming the anode has gone and rust is lifting the lining off) so it's likely to be fix one leak and another one appears.

I have patched an old copper tank successfully, but they corrode much more slowly and aren't under mains pressure. That one is still in use (at work) and was patched with gutter silicone about 3 years ago. It was only planned to be temporary but it's been working fine ever since. It's a very low pressure unit though.

[wonderplumb]

The best advice I can give is dont bugger around with it, go through the trading post or ebay and see if you can pick up a cheap 2nd hand one.

[wonderplumb]

And yes its definately beyond being patched or repaired. The tanks are enamelled on the inside and once this starts going its all over. The best way out of it would be a straight swap and a new duo valve on the CW inlet.

[Terrian]

Looks like a Rheem 31 series 135litre fast recovery unit. Also looks stuffed but I will let the plumbers here tell u that as I am only a sparkie. Remove the lift off cover plate at the bottom front and the date of manufacture will be on the printed label inside.
I guess about 10-12 years old so probably at the end of its life.
cheers

10- 12 years... my 135l unit is 15 years old, and (almost) as good now as the day it was made (fingers crossed, touch wood :) )

[Smurf]

10- 12 years... my 135l unit is 15 years old, and (almost) as good now as the day it was made (fingers crossed, touch wood :) )
Put a new anode in and with a bit of luck it will last a while yet.

[Terrian]

Put a new anode in and with a bit of luck it will last a while yet.

At this stage I believe in the 'if it aint broke, don't fix it' motto :)

I paid $300 for it about 15 years ago (it was bought from a work mate who had just had a new unit built and it was smaller than what he wanted) I wouild say I have had my moneys worth out of it :)

[billym]

Elgas had an offer of I think $ 300.
sorry I cant remember all the details but it looked damm good. I Had LPG installed about six years ago and thought mickey mouse. Got the plumbers quote including this temp valve over $1200. No go. I learned late that with the instant heaters, If you have a shower and just a few minutes pass and someone else showers they will get the remaining hot water in the line and cold water until the heater catched up. Think this would be very be very off putting good luck :):)

[dazzler]

Go for instant gas replacement you will save heaps on gas

yes yes yes :2tsup:

[juan]

I learned late that with the instant heaters, If you have a shower and just a few minutes pass and someone else showers they will get the remaining hot water in the line and cold water until the heater catched up. Think this would be very be very off putting good luckHow can it be different with storage hot water? The water that has cooled in the pipes has to be discharged and replaced with hot water before you get hot water again. Besides the water would cool relatively evenly in the hot water pipe so why would they get hot water at first then cold. It would be cool at first and gradually warm up regardless of the water heating system (unless you have some pre heat device).

cheers