Searching for a foolproof finish [Archive]

Wongo

2nd March 2008, 11:00 AM

I am a big fan of the poly/linseed oil/tung oil mix finish. It is so easy to apply like most oil finishes but it is stronger because of the polyurethane in it. I had just made this little table for the in-laws. Here is how I did it.

Sanding: it is very important to put in the best effort in sanding. A smooth surface gives a smooth finish, it is as simple as that. Like uncle Neil said you get what you deserve.

Sealer: I always use a 50% poly / 50% turpentine mix to seal the wood. Do not flood the wood or it will be take a long time to dry.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=68370&stc=1&d=1204415313

Sand the piece with some fine sand papers. Here I use 800 grit and 1000 grit wet and dry.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=68371&stc=1&d=1204415313

Clean up with a clean cloth.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=68372&stc=1&d=1204415313

Mix equal part of polyu, linseed oil and tung oil.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=68373&stc=1&d=1204415313

Rub the finish on. Leave it for a few minutes and rub off any excess completely with a clean cloth. Repeat the process 2 to 3 times.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=68374&stc=1&d=1204415313

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=68375&stc=1&d=1204415313

Polish the whole piece with Uncle Neil's magical wax and it is done.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=68376&stc=1&d=1204415313

Do try.:2tsup:

Wongo

2nd March 2008, 11:02 AM

:D

It is red cedar and jarrah.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=68377&stc=1&d=1204416096

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=68378&stc=1&d=1204416096

pal

2nd March 2008, 11:40 AM

Hi wongo,
the finish comes up a treat table looks great will definately try your brew
regards
pal

Ron Dunn

2nd March 2008, 11:50 AM

That table is NICE.

I thought your recent coffee table was a bit chunky ... but this table looks beautifully proportioned in my eyes.

artme

2nd March 2008, 12:13 PM

My first reaction:roflmao::roflmao2:

My second reaction:shakehead::shakehead:

:realbighug:and this if Joe Public can use it and prove you right.

Nice table and lamp BTW!:2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

old_picker

2nd March 2008, 01:55 PM

mmm
i just went and bought some danish yesterday
i bet yours didnt cost as much
by the way where did you get the tung oil??

jerryc

2nd March 2008, 04:08 PM

Wongo,

I also use the "one third finish" but with spar varnish instead of polyurethane. My reason is that spar varnish is more flexible and can stand temperature extremes better than polyurethane.
Wood movement can fracture polyurethane more easily than spar varnish.Also spar varnish gives a slightly darker finish that mimics ageing. I say this so people who are new to the idea can choose the mixture and not feel poly is the only way to go.
One experiment I'm conducting with "one third finish" is to be as rough as possible. I am building a tool cabinet for the workshop so I felt this was the time to push the limits and see what happens.
I have flooded parts of the wood with the finish and then roughly pushed it around with a circular motion not worrying too much about an even finish. Although the wood was well finished to start with, I left sawdust in the corners and wiped over it. I dropped the cloth on the unclean floor of the workshop, picked it up and used it without even shaking it. I used gloves but they were glazier's gloves that I use in the garden. I grabbed the cabinet on parts that had finish applied and moved it around. Because I use thin coats there were no finger prints. True I did the same as you suggest and used another cloth to burnish the finish. I have used this finish for some years now but never have I thought to see what abuse it stands up to when applying it. Naturally I don't advocate this treatment as a standard way to finish a piece of work, but just want people to see what you have already said.
One thing I should point out with care is that I am an advocate of several thin coats rather than a few thick coats. Might take a fraction longer but the effort is worth it.

It really is a foolproof finish.

Jerry

Eveeryone is entitled to my opinion

munruben

2nd March 2008, 08:28 PM

mmm
by the way where did you get the tung oil??Bunnings or any hardware store should carry it in stock.

jow104

2nd March 2008, 08:36 PM

Wongo, I think I have read somewhere that boiled linseed oil will yellow with time as against basic linseed.
However others may say I have got it the wrong way round.:B

echnidna

2nd March 2008, 08:57 PM

all linseed oil yellows John.

Boiled oil is unnecessary as the poly contains sufficient driers

old_picker

2nd March 2008, 10:33 PM

"Rub the finish on. Leave it for a few minutes and rub off any excess completely with a clean cloth. Repeat the process 2 to 3 times."

how long between the coats??

jerryc

3rd March 2008, 09:21 AM

Wongo,

Just noticed that you use linseed oil and tung oil. Since both perform the same or at least similar functions I'm interested in why you use both? I did say in my previous post that I use the one third finish. What I use is a varnish--turps--linseed oil combination. The turps helps the mix to penetrate the wood.

Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

Wongo

3rd March 2008, 09:32 AM

by the way where did you get the tung oil??

Picker, you can get tung oil from Bunnings and Timbecon.

http://www.timbecon.com.au/productsearch/default.aspx?txtSearchBox=tung+oil

I got mine from Anagote timber.

It is 1L for $35. I think.

"Rub the finish on. Leave it for a few minutes and rub off any excess completely with a clean cloth. Repeat the process 2 to 3 times."

how long between the coats??

I would say 20 hours.

BUT...

I put 1 coat on Saturday morning, another coat on Saturday night and I waxed it on Sunday morning. So maybe 12 hours is OK. When you feel it you will be able to tell it is ready for another coat.

Wongo, I think I have read somewhere that boiled linseed oil will yellow with time as against basic linseed.
However others may say I have got it the wrong way round.:B

Jon, it doesn't bother me.

Thanks for the comments people :2tsup:

Thanks for the read Jerry.

Wongo

3rd March 2008, 09:36 AM

Wongo,
Just noticed that you use linseed oil and tung oil. Since both perform the same or at least similar functions I'm interested in why you use both? I did say in my previous post that I use the one third finish. What I use is a varnish--turps--linseed oil combination. The turps helps the mix to penetrate the wood.

I am not a guru in finishing.:- I use all 3 because Sam Maloof uses it and I see not reason to change a wining formula. Sam is my role model.:D

jerryc

3rd March 2008, 04:03 PM

Wongo,
You gave a clear illustration at the start of this thread on a foolproof finish. What I have tried to do is support your good work with a little more research and I came up with this info. Hope it will be of help to others searching for an easy solution to finishing.

Sam Maloof finish
Pros:
Easy, Virtually foolproof to apply
No rips/runs/sags
No dust nibs
Easy to mix your own.
Satin sheen
hand-rubbed finish
Penetrates into the wood fibres.

Cons;
Requires many coats to get reasonable depth and protection
Lengthy application time for large surfaces.

The
Sam Maloof finish consists of two finishes; a varnish/oil mixture followed by an oil/varnish/beeswax mixture. The first mixture is applied until you are satisfied with the build-up.
Then you apply the second finish, which does require some elbow grease. There are two mixture one recipes.
Mixture one version one is the traditional Sam Maloof finish. It takes a while to dry -- leave for 24hours between coats.
Mixture one version two is an oft used finish that provides a little better penetration, is easier to apply and dries faster.

Mixture one recipe (version one)

Mix equal parts of following.;

Boiled linseed oil
raw tung oil
Semi gloss urethane varnish

Mixture one recipe ( version two easier to apply, better penetration, dries faster.

Mix equal parts of th following;

Turps or other suitable thinner. Can use less or more thinner to choice as it's purpose is to help finish penetrate wood
Varnish of choice
Oil. Either boiled linseed oil or tung oil

Mixture two recipe
Mix two handfuls of shredded beeswax to equal parts of boiled linseed oil and raw tung oil. Heat the mixture carefully . (This part can be a problem. I have made beeswax polish without heat using natural turpentine) However I feel a bought wax might be safer.

Application

Apply three or four coats of mixture one. Let oil sit on surface for 5-10 minutes. Or you can sand the mixture into wood using 400-600 wet and dry. Remove excess oil with clean cloth/paper towel. Allow at least twenty four hours drying time between each coat. Apply two to three coats of mixture two. Rub each coat into surface very vigorously.

We appear to be using the two versions.

Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

Wongo

3rd March 2008, 04:21 PM

Thanks Jerry.:2tsup: You are working hard today aren't you? :D

For me this is only one formula

For a hard wearing surface - Satin wipe on poly (you know I just love my wipe on poly don't you? :D)

for a non hard wearing surface - The Maloof mix and sometimes with wax.

I LIKE IT.:cool:

jerryc

3rd March 2008, 10:39 PM

Wongo,

All I was doing was backing up your info. My workshop gets too dusty for spraying, although I have spray guns and a 12cfm compressor. Brushing's OK when it has to be done but like you I prefer a foolproof easy to apply wipe on.

Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

Rookie

5th March 2008, 08:55 AM

HI all. Interestinhg reading and I've been meaning to try a poly/tung oil mix since watching David Marks peaked my interest in this wonderful hobby.

But..I am assuming when we say "poly", we are talking about the poly that you buy off the shelf in a tin such as a satin or gloss from Cabots or similar manufacturer?

Wongo

5th March 2008, 09:11 AM

I will say any oil based poly will do.

Rookie

5th March 2008, 01:07 PM

Thanks Wongo. Got some of that. I'll mix up a batch and start playing.

32hyb

5th March 2008, 05:29 PM

:2tsup:You talk about a finish that is hard and is easy to apply well now I was taught to do it the ONLY way by hand ,in that first you filled the grain with a whiting base filler that was coloured to siut the desired finish ie maple ,blode etc wipe on wipe off.
Then afterit dried one would dry sand it smooth then apply sheelac to the desired colour then sand smooth and last but not least apply lacquer with a rubber now you young blokes may not understand what I mean only to say a nice soft cloth made to the correct shape .the cloth is dipped into the lacquer ans applied one way every coat is allowed to dry and then sanded with triple 0 paper.
The more coats applied the more depth was achieved thats how this gentleman who has now passed on some 40 yrs ago did "Grand Pianos" I know that spray is quicker but you cant beat a hand rubbered finish for depth Im affraid its just about a lost art now but those were the days of craftsman .
Hope you enjoyed this brief piece of history
Regards Allan

jerryc

6th March 2008, 08:18 AM

Allan,

Need a little clarification here. You talk of "lacquer" so I presume that is what you mean, and not varnish or any other coating. I know the method you prescribe, but personally I don't use lacquer because it tends to be too fast drying.

Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

Earthling#44-9a

18th March 2008, 03:16 PM

Turps or other suitable thinner. Can use less or more thinner to choice as it's purpose is to help finish penetrate wood
Varnish of choice
Oil. Either boiled linseed oil or tung oil

Mixture two recipe
Mix two handfuls of shredded beeswax to equal parts of boiled linseed oil and raw tung oil. Heat the mixture carefully . (This part can be a problem. I have made beeswax polish without heat using natural turpentine) However I feel a bought wax might be safer.

Application

Apply three or four coats of mixture one. Let oil sit on surface for 5-10 minutes. Or you can sand the mixture into wood using 400-600 wet and dry. Remove excess oil with clean cloth/paper towel. Allow at least twenty four hours drying time between each coat. Apply two to three coats of mixture two. Rub each coat into surface very vigorously.

How would this method go for outdoor use? I imagine it would last longer then a straight outdoor decking oil finish correct?
If you just do stage one (turps, varnish, oil mix) is 4 or 5 coats of that adequate, as the beeswax and tungoil isnt going to penetrate the wood much, if at all, after the previous mixture sealing the wood? I imagine its more for sheen, yes? Thoughts?

Toasty

22nd March 2008, 04:14 PM

For people reading this thread. I made up this mixture but bought Cabot's Gelclear Poly (cause it was the only thing on the shelf that said Poly). It is actually in a gel form, so probably not ideal. Because I had already spent the money I am giving it a go because if you give it a stir the gel releases and it becomes more liquidy.

Also anyone who is wondering "How do I get exactly 1/3-1/3-1/3 without ruining the missus' good measuring cup?" Well depending on how much you need try a syringe from a chemist. I bought a 25cc syringe for 50 cents and measured out exactly 20ml of each into a jar. The total of 60ml has lasted me quite sufficiently to use on two large burl bowls, three coats each, and still some left over for probably another two coats.

Please don't ask how it has gone so far, I didn't read the instructions properly that said, wipe on, leave for a few minutes, then wipe of excess completly. The second coat was obviously loaded with bubbles and stuff so I had to sand both bowls back and have started over :~

jerryc

23rd March 2008, 08:50 AM

Earthling,

Can't help with how finish would go on exterior application because I haven't tried it. I never give advice unless I have had personal experience. I imagine a varnish based wipe on would work but a polyurethane would not. My reason is that wood expands and contacts on exposure to weather and polyurethane is too rigid. I have had experience of polyurethane on a counter top by a west facing window and can tell you it broke up very quickly. Varnish is more flexible and spar varnish is the most flexible of all, hence it's use on boats.
Hope that helps.

Toasty,

The proportions are a guide and don't have to be adhered to rigidly. That said one way of measuring is with a ruler or even a marked stick in a transparent jar. I don't know if the gel had any unforseen effects as I haven't used gel. The bubbles however suggest you might have been a little enthusiastic in mixing. You have to be very careful not to introduce bubbles into the mix as they can be a real problem when applying. Another problem which might have introduced bubbles is if the wiping cloth had a crease in the part that touches the wood. Always aim to make that areas smooth.

Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

plunger

27th March 2008, 03:03 PM

I'm ready to put a finish on a marri dining table. Spraying is not an option for me so after reading this and many other posts on wipe on oil/poly mixes Ive decided to go for :
table base 1/3 poly - 1/3 tung oil - 1/3 white spirits OR
1/3 poly - 1/3 linseed oil - 1/3 tung oil
would either be OK?

table top I can't fid MinWax wipe on poly anywhere so from the tip on Blue Mountains Woodturners site http://www.pnc.com.au/~k_j/woodturner/Pages/TipsOils.htm: if I use:
1 part tung oil - 4 parts poly - 6 parts white spirit
would this be a close substitute to get a more durable finish?

Am I on the right track?

Cheers
Garry

Zarguld

6th April 2008, 09:14 PM

Nice mixture table looks great and sam is a very good role model indeed I thought he must have been a strong influence in your work,your rocking chairs very much seem to have a lot of sam's style in them, and I dont think that anyone could pay you a higher compliment than that.:2tsup::2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

Mick47

11th May 2008, 05:01 PM

Good afternoon Gentlemen,

I've been having all sorts of stife trying to spay a satin polyurethane finish onto a red gum coffee table top. For various reasons I've had to strip it back to bare wood at least three times now, so I'm ready for a change. I was going to go for Cabot's Danish oil, but then found this thread. The table top won't see very much direct use, coasters etc and the kids have moved, so no more table top dances! Afew questions then.

1.In your opinions (which I greatly respect) would you use something like Cabot's Danish oil or similar OR go for the thirds mix?

2.When you talk of tung oil, is it in it's pure form or one of the mixes like Intergrain etc?

Many thanks for your time,
Mick

Burnsy

2nd July 2008, 01:08 PM

Can I use metalated spirits (from molases) in place of turps? Do you let it dry or wipe off after a short period like oil? I would have thought that if it dries it would straek and go nasty if you wipe it off?

Cheers,
Mike

Wongo

2nd July 2008, 01:33 PM

Mike, I usually leave it for a few minutes or just ripe it off right away. BUT don’t leave it for too long. It will get nasty as you suggested.

I have been making a lot of hall tables lately. The way I do it is I wipe on the top first and wipe off right away then I will do the base.

Burnsy

2nd July 2008, 03:44 PM

Thanks Scott. I am going to try it this afternoon with the kids on their tool boxes. Straight laquer is to stinky. Found some Turps so hopefully it should be enough. Anyone know about the metho?

Chipman

2nd July 2008, 04:31 PM

Thanks Scott. I am going to try it this afternoon with the kids on their tool boxes. Straight laquer is to stinky. Found some Turps so hopefully it should be enough. Anyone know about the metho?
Burnsy,

Only use Turps...not methylated spirits

Chipman

Burnsy

2nd July 2008, 05:32 PM

Thanks, ran out of turps so did the last three using half linseed half poly. Will be good to see the difference in them tomorrow to compare the effect the turps has.

ciscokid

9th July 2008, 09:37 PM

Nice table, Wongo. Nicely built. Nicely finished. Much as been written over here (US) regarding the finish you employed. I went the easy route and just bought the Sam Maloof brand finish in a can from Woodcraft. It's great for bringing out the figuring in a piece and provides reasonable protection for minimal work. :)

jackliveshere

9th October 2008, 08:06 PM

Hey Wongo,

Quick question on the finish mate; how important is the first step of sealing the timber with 1/2 poly 1/2 turps? I'm still pretty new to different types of finishing - what advantages does the sealing give you? Can you progress straight to the 1/3 mix instead of sealing first?

Your table looks awesome as well :2tsup:

Cheers,

Will

Wongo

10th October 2008, 09:19 AM

Will,

The first coat without the oils is important. It raises and seals the grain, so you can sand the surface smooth. Using the oil mix as the first coat might not seal the grain properly.

jackliveshere

10th October 2008, 09:27 AM

Thanks Wongo :2tsup:

jackliveshere

12th October 2008, 03:48 PM

Hey Wongo one more question mate, do you sand or do anything between the coats of oil? :B

Cheers,

Will

Wongo

12th October 2008, 07:35 PM

You sand the work piece after the sealer is dry but you don't sand between each coat of the oil mix.

cadeuceus

12th October 2008, 07:50 PM

at the risk of being the butt of many jokes - has anyone used cabots gel clear for varnishing pine? it is a thick gel consistency and is brushed on or wiped on and because of the consistency does not run extensively. it is clear but gives a slight yellow tinge that darkens with repeated applications. Care must be taken to not lather it on or the wood appears too plastic, but it seems to be easy to apply covers the wood nicely for kids toys. Any thoughts?

zelk

13th October 2008, 04:21 PM

cadeuceus

13th October 2008, 04:28 PM

Thanks Zelk, i agree with the use on large items, but i make toys for kids and so the maximum size is still small.

Eldanos of KDM

13th October 2008, 10:32 PM

Hey Wongo,
A few quick questions mate as your recipe interets me greatly!
i)Do I repeat the sealing process 2-3 times? Or just the poly and oil mix?
ii) Are you using 2 pack Polyurethane?
iii)And this may be a silly questions, but do you have any problems mixing the oils and polyurethane together?

Thanks!!

Wongo

14th October 2008, 09:44 AM

i) 1 coat of sealer then 5-6 coats of oil/poly mix
ii) No. I always use Estapol oil based poly. To get a semi gloss finish, I use the estapol gloss. To get a low sheen finish, I use the estapol satin.
iii) Never

Good luck

http://www.wattyl.com.au/NR/rdonlyres/B18208CD-7348-47E0-A0B4-9D649EA4B13E/0/EstapolGloss_1L.jpg

Eldanos of KDM

14th October 2008, 01:13 PM

Burnsy

19th October 2008, 11:36 PM

I have been using this mix your own wipe on finish and am loving it. I still have a few queries through as to what is poly and what isn't and what the oil does.

I have a drum of Becker Acroma left over from spraying my timber ceiling and tried making the mix using it. A waxy layer separates out when using it as can bee seen. I have used it and it still seems to work although the finish seems more like an oil finish, it dries quickly and looks good. The product is suppose to be thinned using thinners and I have tried making up the wipe on finish using both turps and thinners and I get the same result with both. I used linseed oil as the oil component. Anyone have any idea of what is happening or why?

Next question, I was chatting to another member today about the turps/poly wipe on finish and was lucky to see the result he was getting using it, it was fantastic. What is the big difference between adding the oil or not adding it?

Burnsy

21st October 2008, 11:30 AM

Wongo

21st October 2008, 11:55 AM

For goodness’ sake Burnsy, how are we supposed to know? We are no experts here. :smack: :D:D:D

Next question, I was chatting to another member today about the turps/poly wipe on finish and was lucky to see the result he was getting using it, it was fantastic. What is the big difference between adding the oil or not adding it?

I don’t see it as adding oil to the poly. I see it as adding poly to oil. The poly adds strength to the finish and it still allows you to apply it like an oil finish.

Don't think too hard bro, just do it.

jackliveshere

21st October 2008, 12:03 PM

Don't think too hard bro, just do it.

Totally agree - a week or so back I tried this 1/3 mix finish just as Wongo outlayed it, including the wax. Turned out an absolute treat! Will definitely become a regular in the finishing arsenal.

Cheers,

Will

Burnsy

21st October 2008, 03:54 PM

For goodness’ sake Burnsy, how are we supposed to know? We are no experts here. :smack: :D:D:D

I don’t see it as adding oil to the poly. I see it as adding poly to oil. The poly adds strength to the finish and it still allows you to apply it like an oil finish.

Don't think too hard bro, just do it.

That makes sense about the adding oil to poly, then it is stonger and you can wipe it on, but how does adding mineral turps to poly allow you to wipe it one, isn't that just thinning it down?

Someonemust know about the Beckers,is it poly? I am asuming it is the Beckers that has caused the stuff I made up to separate.

Wongo

21st October 2008, 04:21 PM

but how does adding mineral turps to poly allow you to wipe it one, isn't that just thinning it down?

Can you wipe it off completely like you do with an oil/poly finish? If no then I suspect it is just like the minwax wipe-on poly and it is hard to get a smooth finish.

Burnsy

22nd October 2008, 01:01 AM

Can you wipe it off completely like you do with an oil/poly finish? If no then I suspect it is just like the minwax wipe-on poly and it is hard to get a smooth finish.

Can't answer that one as I have not tried it.

Think I found the problem with my mix. I believe that the Becker Acroma stuff I have is a laquer and not a poly, happy to be corrected though as I am really none the wiser when it comes to laquers and polys. Bummer if it is laquer and is not suitable as I have about 18 litres of the stuff oo: