Hi and please help.

[Ben Jones]

G'day to whoever reads this and those who can help.
I'm a sparky of 9 years and of this just about all of that time has been spent either in the mines or suplting to the related industry. I am now in the throws of becoming a contract sparky and am having a struggle with the required knowledge. The reason being is that, at no time have had the incentive or urge to become a 'house basher'. This has proven to be a thorn in my side as the majority of the focus is domestic orientated.
...now with that in the fore, I have been struggling with finding some clarity and direction as to some of the smaller details needed. Such as how many socket outlets are allowed on a 16A circuit breaker. I remember there being an easily found answer in the yellow covered AS 3000, yet have had no luck in finding it in the newer edition(which, I am told has just been superceeded a month or so ago).
Now as you read this you may be asking why don't I go to those at the training institute that I am taking the course from? Good question, although I have already done this a number of occasions and have been told to look for design features of the installation and the requirements for soket outlets in a domestic installation. My problem is that I am LOST. A GPO is now a socket outlet and with numerous other definition, standard and title changes, I am beating through bush that I have not trodden in for about 9 years....with my eyes closed and following vague directions.
Now I have been told by the higher authorities that they can't tell me where the answer is....because that is cheating... and they can't teach me what to look for and where exactly to find the answer...because they aren't a teaching institute (which is what I thought "training" meaned)...so I am left to find other sources of aid.
I am hoping that someone would be kind enough to lend a hand and some insight so that I can put a marker in my rule book and add the information to my newly written 'Sparky cheat book' that I have written as a study and reference material for myself.

[Ben Jones]

I have just been looking through "Conduit2000_12" and found this...

Number of socket outlets per
final sub circuit, domestic and
non-domestic

There have been several instances of installation of
inadequate power circuits in that the number of outlets
on a circuit have far exceeded the acceptable number.
You should keep in mind that although the new book,
AS/NZS 3000:2000 no longer specifies the number of
socket outlets per final sub circuit other factors must
be taken into account. In theory the number of points
is unlimited, however you need to take into account:
• Clause 1.8 Design of an electrical
installation
• Clause 1.8.3 Maximum demand
• Clause 1.8.4 Voltage drop
• Clause 1.8.5 Electrical installation circuit
arrangement
• Clause 1.9 Selection of electrical
equipment
• Clause 2.4.3 Protection against overload
current
• Clause 2.5 Protection against earth leakage
current
• Clause 4.9 Socket outlets


I have checked these Clauses and have found no specific number. The paragraph above the list states this very fact.....so why the hell am I sposed to come up with a specific number? After taking into account the above list I would have to say that from all the confusion and hassel that I have recieved over this question, the result is pivotal on the customers requirements. Only then would a more accurate number of socket outlets could be aquired. Is this sound?

[Ben Jones]

Please forgive my spelling of some words, I am having troubles with my keyboard....it's new and I haven't beat it senseless yet. :wink:

[thatirwinfella]

well yes, it is basically infinite. you just figure out the maximum demand that a given number of socket outlets will have, then select cable and breakers as appropriate. There is estimating software there for things like this, try googling a few things and see what you can come up with. there'd be a few excel spreadsheets out there available.

don't bother learning 3000:2000, get your hands on 3000:2007. your training organisation may have a standards australia licence, which will allow them to download any standard free of charge... the catch, it deletes itself in three days, so you need to print them off for permanent useage. The plus... it cost me $45 to print and bind 3000:2007, or $120 to buy it.

Try getting a copy of 3012 or 3018... i can't remember the number but it is basically a manual on how to wire a house according to 3000:2000. Hopefully it will help you.

[patty]

Are you going to go out on your own Ben? or are you going to work for a firm? Either way mate if I was in your position and you are going to hate what I have to say but have you thought about going to work with a contractor like a one man band for a few months to get up to speed on this.... the worst part about this and it always is the case is you will be treated like an apprentice again which is just part and parcel of the process I have no doubt you have the knowledge! it is just the knowhow and the so called tricks of the trade that you will learn in this time that will help you out and make you an effective worker in the wire jerking industry..

[Ben Jones]

I spoke to the Training Manager of the course provider and gave a vague enough answer to pass the question. Turns out that when they changed the ruling and regulations, the once all important AS wring rules book, is now a lesser figure. Go figure.?. My brother and I are ging out on our own Patty. He has a business already established and so I will work under his banner as an electrician. However, he is a fitter and machinist and as such I have to complete the nominee side of the licencing. No probs I thought. Pull out my ol TAFE stuff from my apprentice days and I'll be set. BING BONG! Didn't I get that wrong. With full time work in a small business and trying to complete the contracting paperwork, I've struggled to get the time to correspond with the appropriate personage. Not to mention the course material being hard to comprehend. This all contributing to a confusing dilema. Look in your books...... did that and got lost. Got told to look again.....with the changes in terminology and such I've gone round in more circles than that time my ol pappy n me were way bush looking for fire bugs.... but that's another story for a later can of rum n cola. :U

The advice about getting ahold of the new wiring rules... I'm glad to inform you that I've ordered one. My filing system is better when it's stuck together in the first place. I did find reference to a publication with HB something in the title. It seemed to have a similar gist to what you wrote. Have you heard of something along those lines Irwin fella?

The biggest stab in the butt was that we weren't allowed to get a subsidy because we are going to be supplying a unit that goes to a mine site. Correction...wiring a unit.......... One light, One A/C and a 240 to 12VDC power supply... this and a small electrical service works on an existing comercial building. The latter is spasmotic and I will be working there for a couple days every couple of months. I live in Perth and have no concern about goingback to the mining industry, yet we areging to be providing 'A' service to the mines. The subsidy would have saved my brothers company about a thousand bucks. Needless to say I have had serious thoughts about continuing. But I'm sticking with it for the sheer love of the punishment.

[thatirwinfella]

AS3001:2001 Electrical installations - Domestic installations is the 'how to' that i referred to. I've seen it before, and it's quite handy.

good to hear that you've ordered the wiring rules. Give your training organization a call, or a mate in a large company, and see if they have a licence to print the standards. Having 3018 up your sleeve wouldn't hurt, but it probably costs too much to buy. I myself am in the position where I have to acquire a half dozen different standards at the one time.

[Ivan in Oz]

G'Day Ben,
Welcome to the Bedlam:;

I am in a Similar position to yourself.

All my time has been in Industry.
XXXX Brewery, Mines, and Printing indusrty.
Now Elect Inst Tech in a Power Stn

About the best way for me to do it would be to get a few months working as a Lacky....No, not Lecky; to get the Run of the mill to house Wiring also Flats and Motels :2tsup:

Printed off a Hardcopy of 3000 at work..............2 1/2 to 3 Hours BEFORE being Ring Bound

The 3000 Rules not me :- :- :o

[Smurf]

Best way I've found to brush up on skills is to apply them. If you own any property then (this might vary by state?) you don't need a contractor's license to do electrical work on it. Likewise any other non-paid electrical work you can do without a contractor's license.

So go and find a house belonging to someone you know that needs completely rewiring (or a new one being built) and do it free of charge (get whoever owns it to supply the materials). You'll learn plenty and the time will be well spent.

Everything I know about domestic metering regulations was learnt about 5 metres from where I'm sitting now. Never done anything with meters until I needed to sort out mine (moved house). Knew the rules backwards by the time I'd done it and it passed the inspection 100%. One short phone call to the utility, an hour looking at their serivice and installation rules and a bit of a look in AS3000 was all it took.

Check local regulations first though as what you can do without a contractor's license might vary state to state.

As for the original question, there's no limit subject to the clauses others mentioned and assuming there's at least two final sub-circuits installed.

[nev25]

Yeah I was in the same boat a few years ago
I worked in what was the called back then the SECV in the mines working on dredges and conveyor systems etc

I left there and worked in the entertainment industry for around ten years.

To cut a long story Short and for various reasons I got my Contractors license
And was completely lost as to where to start as you are

I contacted the local TAFE who run a (what was called then) a LEM refresher course

They told me Id be wasting my time as this was for people failing the LEM (Now called LEA)

They actually put me on to an X sparkie that ran the course and I had a few one on one sessions with him and many hours on the phone

First thing he got me to do was top go to the local TAFE collage and buy the class notes for the LEA and go though it as a brush up.
I did that as a lot of things come back to me.

My suggestion is to find someone like this or even an Electrical inspector and sit down with them and go though what you need to know offer to pay them an hourly rate Im sure you will find someone

Electrical Inspectors are suppose to be there to bounce thing off some do some don't.

[Ivan in Oz]

Electrical Inspectors are suppose to be there to bounce thing off some do some don't.

Are Electrical Inspectors still out there?
I understood everything was now self-accessed:doh:

[nev25]

Are Electrical Inspectors still out there?
I understood everything was now self-accessed:doh:

Not in Vic we still have Inspectors
Other states may be different
Would be interested to know

[Ben Jones]

Practical experience would be good, but due to time, availabiity of experienced domestic contract electrician and adequate funding, I'm hemmed into the corner I now call my private hell hole...(a room in my house I have converted for study and skills developement). The most informative info I have to go on at the mo that is always available is my old tafe notes. Trick has been in updating the notes to coincide with current regs.

I'll get onto getting the AS 3018 and anything else that will get me set to battle the stringent contractings assessments. I'll keep you posted as to how things pan out. After this is over, I should be full bottle for the next poor sucker that needs an electrical contracting ticket in West Aus.:U

[dan76]

when i was doing my contractors course questions like this used to annoy me as well, there is far too much leeway in as 3000 for my liking. i used to write "as many as required while still being fit for purpose"
out of interest how long does it take to do the course now? when i went through it was 3hrs two nights a week at tafe.

[Smurf]

Not in Vic we still have Inspectors
Other states may be different
Would be interested to know
In Tas we have electrical inspectors but most individual jobs aren't checked unless it's an unusual installation, involves high voltage, is done by a newly licensed person or is done by a person with a bad track record.

The power distributor, Aurora, also has a technical advice line. They won't tell you how to do the job or answer questions which should be common knowledge to any electrician but will sort out anything that's a bit unusual or deals with meters or anything else belonging to Aurora. So they won't tell you what size mains to install or how many lights on a circuit in a house but they will tell you what meter panel to install or what is acceptable earth for a commercial building (for example).