Shellac, tell me all you know!

[kekemo]

Shallac.... want to learn everything there is to know about it....tell me more....who ever reads this...if you know anything...

Have made up the general mix...250grams to 1 litre of metho....
it's like a dream to use...
But,as this is my first application with it...I would like to hear any of the properties or characters it has, that any other forumies have gleaned...while using it.

I've applied the first coat...to the pine...(making a queensized bed....) and have sanded back with a 800grit ready to reapply....for second coat....
its really great...so anyone who can give me more information I would be grateful....thanks...KEKEMO...we can all learn new things...even little oldme....lol.....

[jerryc]

kekemo,
Shellac is one of the best and most forgiving finishes for wood and greatly misunderstood, even on this forum. You will hear it cannot stand moisture, it cannot stand spirits, etc etc.
My best advice to you is to go to search on this forum, enter "shellac" and read all you can. There will be many conflicting viewpoints, mine included. For example, I am a great advocate of using a rubber, whilst others prefer brushing. Then come back to the forum with your questions. There will be plenty to offer advice..

Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

[silentC]

I discovered shellac last year (well, used it properly for the first time). I reckon it's wonderful stuff too. I usually apply it with a pad, which is loosely based on a rubber - a bit of cotton waste wadding wrapped in a bit of old T-shirt. I try to finish everything in flat form before assembly, which avoids having to get into nooks and crannies, but of course that can't always be avoided. I've got some artist's brushes that I use for that.

I don't follow any recipe when mixing it - a handful of flakes in a jar and then just cover with metho. I pad on several coats, then wet sand, then burnish with steel wool, then apply traditional wax (as per instructions in the Polisher's Handbook). Looks great.

I don't sand back between coats - as each successive coat melts in to the previous one. I usually set everything up on a table and then give it several coats every 15 minutes or so (as soon as each is dry). Very light coats, probably about 6 or 8. This works fine for the way I'm using it.

[RufflyRustic]

Hi Kekemo,

I'm a big fan of UBeaut's Shellacs - White, Hard and Sanding Sealer. The shellac gets mixed with as pure metho as I can source. I no longer brush it on, but apply with a rubber similar to SilentC's.

Apply a couple of coats, very lightly sand - 400, apply another couple of coats, very lightly sand - 800, another couple of coats, sand again 800 and if I go further than this, I will get into the 1500 and 2000 grits.

Then I try to let the piece stand and cure for as long as possible before waxing with Traditional Wax. I thinkt the curing time could be up to 2 weeks.

cheers
Wendy

[jmk89]

What Wendy (RR) said. Shellac is great and thinned down old shellac is great sanding sealer.

But all you need to know is in the Polisher's Handbook - the best $32 you will ever spend! (now can I win a prize draw Neil, can I huh, can I)

[Honorary Bloke]

What Wendy (RR) said. Shellac is great and thinned down old shellac is great sanding sealer.

But all you need to know is in the Polisher's Handbook - the best $32 you will ever spend! (now can I win a prize draw Neil, can I huh, can I)

JMK, No, you can't.

KK, shellac is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I keep a jar of thinned down shellac for sanding sealer and a brush hanging in the shellac thinner, ready to go at all times. A good finish by itself. A great sealer between coats of differing substance. Your friend. :)

[kekemo]

Oh...what a great response...I thank you all, everyone of you! :D
It is so good to discover something that your really like...makes such a difference ...but then to find out more information from others who use it...really great. Yes, I am going to do a fair bit of research....reading & enquiring...plus google + archives....I am really excited...and anticipating finding out more advantages to this "baby"...

Ok...I am really getting old now! What's a rubber.....in woodworking terms...I am lost with that one!:?

I used a rag....( actually I always use "winchy material" its knitted on one side....and very fluffy pile on the other side...leaves no threads & doesn't get caught in the wood ever...I apply using the knit side...rolled up the rage and placed in a sealed air-tight container...ready for the next lot....after it was dried...I sanded back ever so lightly with 800 grit....re-applied & that's all I have done so far....the colour on the pine is almost same as Baltic pine....just supurb....I'm definitely passionate about this stuff...been looking for about 8 yeasrs for just this, it has all these qualities ...easy... quick... smooth... sensational.....& doesn't really smell offensive, actually can't hardly smell it at all!

OK...( I'm not really nuts....but) .....Was just talking to my "Dearest Departed Hubby"...as we all do in our minds when we loose someone we love...you occassionally chat to them...about anything...& everything...but this time....TOLD him..." if you blunt all those tools in God's workshop before I get there ..... I ain't bringing you any Shallac..!!" :no: Do you think he will take heed of that!....lol It's really good stuff...specially requested I want my coffin coated with it....lol....

All I can say...."You little beauty...you bloody little BUG!"

Keep that info rolling in ....I am reading and really enjoying...not greedy but will take all I can get.....
Cheers to everyone....thanks again...
Kekemo....:2tsup:

Down the shed now....glue that bed together....should be able to post pictures tonight....

....

[jerryc]

kekemo

A properly made and folded rubber consists of a ball of unmedicated cotton wool about the size of a cricket ball. Then take a piece of lint free linen about the size of a man's handkerchief. (I use my wife's old pillow cases.) Fold as in the pictures shown, and make sure the face of the rubber is smooth with no creases from the fold. When using the rubber it is best to use a squeeze bottle to recharge the rubber from the back. This stops picking up any bits and transferring them to the work. The cotton wool reservoir is very useful because you can control the amount of shellac you put on the work just by squeezing the rubber. The rubber is folded with a point at the leading end to make it easier to get into small spots. I make at least two rubbers, one to put on general shellac and the other which is almost pure meth as a finish rubber. Keep the rubber in airtight jars and you'll be able to use them until the linen wears out.
After the initial coat to raise the grain, I rarely use abrasive. Use of the rubbers can give you a finish almost as good as glass, if you want it.


Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

[silentC]

Use of the rubbers can give you a finish almost as good as glass, if you want it.
Yes but don't expect to get it without some instruction and a lot of practice.

[jerryc]

Beauty of shellac is the ease of use. Wouldn't agree about needing instruction, but practise yes. As with all things, practice is the key to success. The person who has never made a mistake has never done anything worthwhile.

Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

[robyn2839]

great stuff to spray, keeps in gun for ages, then just spray wait 5 min spray again,and so on ,you can get a very good shiny finish after a bit of practice, no mention of where it comes from ,just google it,you will be amazed where it comes from,wont say though (may be wrong) and there are a few who watch posts waiting for someone to make a mistake ,them bamm,they're onto you.bob

[echnidna]

i always had trouble spraying it, maybe not enough metho

[silentC]

Wouldn't agree about needing instruction
So how did you find out what a rubber was and how to make one? How did you discover the purpose of a finishing rubber? Did you come across the way the rubber is swirled across the surface by chance, or did somebody show you? Did you discover these things through practice alone within no-one telling you how to do them?

All I'm really saying is that if you expect a glass-like finish from shellac on the first try, you'll be disappointed.

[kekemo]

Again thanks to everyone for posting your replies...seems I'd already make myself a "rubber" jiust didn't know it....lol....yes I like the method of wiping on the "shellac" its just glorious to use.

I guess that I am propbably going to disappoint a lot of woodworkers here...I understand the pursuit of the "glass finish"...but that is not exactuly what I am after in my case.

Don't need it to be finished to that extent...that beautiful smooth glossy look certainly can't help but make the furniture look absolutely magnificent. ......... so truely don't need to go to that extent...(hope you don't consider that cheating or being slack....I crave for that country-cottage look....don't want the glass reflection...lol....miight show the dust too much..:rolleyes:...)

Well must love & leave you all....Cancer support meeting today...(wont miss them....they have been great since I lost my dearest ED)...but hey...straight home from that & out the shed!..:p..Oh that aircon's nice!

Cheers everyone....thanks for the responses.
:2tsup: Kekemo

[silentC]

It's a personal thing, but I prefer the low-sheen look too. That's why I use the 'waxed French polish' method from Neil's book. It really is dead easy too. Difficult to muck up, unless you accidentally sand through the finish. Even a clot like me can good results from it.

[jerryc]

Silent,

If have ruffled your feathers over the word "instruction" I apologise. I took the word in it's narrowest sense as personal instruction. Mea culpa. The purpose of this thread is to help Kekemo to understand a little bit about shellac and not to engage in a semantic discussion.

Kekemo,

The problem with these short bursts of communication is that often things are not fully explained. Shellac CAN give a high gloss if that is what is required. However equally it can give the low sheen you require. I repeat my original suggestion to click on search on the tool bar of this forum and go over past threads. An example of a low sheen (my kitchen cabinet door) is attached below. Apart from wax there are other methods of lowering the sheen.

[Tex B]

Sounding a bit like the Shellac Appreciation Society here. Anything it can't do? Durability/water resistance/etc?

Tex

[silentC]

Jerry, I'm devoid of feathers. :)

I just wanted to make sure Kekemo knew that getting a glassy finish with shellac will not be as easy as brushing on gloss polyurethane and some instruction (whether through the forum, from a book, or a finishing class) will be required, as well as a lot of practice. I know this because I have yet to attain that level myself. :)

But as it turns out, she doesn't want the glassy finish anyway, so it's moot.

Great stuff, shellac.

[echnidna]

Sounding a bit like the Shellac Appreciation Society here. Anything it can't do? Durability/water resistance/etc?

Tex

well you can glaze cakes & bikkies with it,
(dunno if yer use metho fer that procedure)

[jerryc]

Tex,

You've found our guilty secret. Yes I am a member of the shellac appreciation society.

Durability? Magnificent. In a previous thread I explained I had used it on a kitchen door right next to the exhaust from our dishwasher. Hot caustic steam and it lasted five years before I gave it a rub over with the magic "rubber". Good as new. That covers heat, moisture, durability I think.

Oh yes and ease of repair.

Safe with low toxicity? Used to coat pills in the pharmacutical industry.

It's an in the wood finish. Different to many on the wood finishes, it imparts a warm glow to the wood Etc etc etc.

Could bore you some more but why not get some shellac, try it and join the Society?

Yes there are other finishes and I do use them occasionally.


Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

[silentC]

It has also been used to make picture frames, small boxes and other moulded objects, records (old 78's are made from it), as a protective coating on fruit, for the manufacture of dental plates, and who knows what else.

[Sebastiaan56]

Sounding a bit like the Shellac Appreciation Society here. Anything it can't do? Durability/water resistance/etc?

Tex

Well Tex, its not the best to drink, but hey with a bit of Coke it scrubs up, better after quite a few beers..... Ive also not seen it do the washing yet, I live in hope.

In all seriousness I think its wonderful. Even a klutz like me can get a good finish. Yes, it takes practise. Ive had it on musical instruments and Neils' advice of using linseed oil to lubricate the rubber is good. It greatly increases water resistance.

Kekemo, get Neils finishing book. Essential reading, I learn more each time I reread, plenty of "ahhh........thats what he means......" moments,

Sebastiaan

[Andy Mac]

I'm a relative novice with it from a fine woodwork sense, but recently used it on a pair of tables I made from recycled rosewood (thread here somewhere), and I was really impressed. Easy to buff to good shine, after building up layers.
I have used in art school a lot, on paper and wood, and mixed things into it like pigment and natural ochre. In Printmaking it is used on collagraphs to seal before inking up, and we also use it extensively in Ceramics and Sculpture studios on plaster when sealing a mould.
Add me to the Society!:D

Cheers

[MacS]

Shellac, is also used to seal the glass bulb to the metal base on light bulbs.

This is not a knock, but a fact. It is not a very durable finish, that is why it is used on antiques, or on furniture that must be well cared for and not abused. It is not "normally" used on production furniture, which is a clue why it is not used for commercial furniture.

Alcohol based products like perfume will dissolve shellac, cleaners will also damage shellac. One of its main features is that its very repairable, in fact damages can be made into invisible repairs. Shellac is an evaportive coating
which means it will redissolve in alcohol, and making it possible to "knit" the damages together again using the proper circular padding technique.

[kekemo]

Yep...I'll join this society for sure:D:cool:....we had never used varnish...we always used wax's & polishes....so have been very used of building up the layers....time staking labourous work...this is just so darn easy compared to the techniques ...that I have used before...only ever used varnish once...that was for the spa-table because it was near water....so really looking forward to the practicle side of my learning curve...I am so impressed ....already!

Yes, I will definitely look for that book...little more information on it if you please? ....don't travel to Perth much...and even getting 800 + 1200 grit sanding disc's is not easy....Mandurah...needs a woodworking specialty store....now if Carbatec....or Woodstock...or what's their name's,:? need good workers....or men or women... to run or open a new super-store.....a store...I'm here...yep....I need a good job....think I could go the distance & then some more.....encourage women to join & enjoy woodwork....don't know if I could encourage men to do much of anything other than woodwork....don't think they'll need their arms twistted so much......

Loving this thread...thankyou all for you wonderful supporst....cut all the buiscuts slots today...just over 64 in base & top.....
Gluing tomorrow...
Good meeting at cancer support group today...walked in sat down and then looked at my finger-nails....oh...crap....yep need to know what cleans it up pretty good too?
sincerely thanks...KEKEMO :2tsup:

[jerryc]

Kekemo,

as I told you early in this thread, many people; many ways of using shellac.

On the issue of making the rubber you notice that Macs and I have different views. It's a point we have discussed and agreed to differ. Mac says his works well for him, so be it. My way was the way I was taught by "Ye Olde English Craftsman" he was old back in the fifties. Worked quite a bit for antique "restorers" and hated the "b******s" "Want the best and pay the worst". I never accept anything without question and asked him why that way of making a rubber. "Charge from the back means a natural filter, my son. And it's a fuller reservoir so yer see squeeze control of the amount dispensed is easy."

One point I didn't make clearly is my aversion to pre mixed shellac. Flakes keep almost indefinitely if well stored. I only mix enough for the job in hand, plus a bit more.

Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

[silentC]

Neil's book has a much more detailed process for making the rubber, which I follow in part to make my pads. It more or less agrees with the method posted by Jerry. He also recommends adding the polish to the top of the rubber, never to the bottom. I've found this to be good advice, because I have occasionally had undissolved material or foreign matter find it's way into my jar and it can't get on the work if the polish has to go through the rubber to get there.

I hope Neil doesn't mind if I post this little comment from his book which accompanies his instructions on making a rubber:

"There are other slightly easier, but less practical and less efficient ways of making a rubber. However we will leave them to the handful of geniuses who always think they know a better way than the time honoured way the professionals do it."

:)

[Sebastiaan56]

Kekemo,

Link to the book here http://www.ubeaut.com.au/book.html mail order is a wonderful thing! Also, the Wild dingo is in your area, PM him he may be avble to help you,

[MacS]

As I said before, its the technique, and not in the way one makes the pad, those in the UK and in the AUS make a "rubber", we over here make a padding ball.

You, and the others here are familar with your technique of making the rubber, its no better then our way, nor worst then our way.

Iits not the rubber or the pad that makes for fine polishing, its in the tecnique of knowing how to polish.

I only sent the photo to show what the pads looks like, I am sure not many of you have ever seen a "pad" before, or I even heard of one.

Just like over here, the only polishers that use the term "rubber" are those who come over here from the UK and AUS..

[silentC]

Interesting. I've got a book here written by a fellow called Jeff Jewitt. It's called "Taunton's Complete Illustrated Guide to Finishing". I'm pretty sure he's an American author. He shows two techniques for applying shellac: one 'French Polishing', the other 'Padding Shellac'.

Although he avoids the term 'rubber', preferring to call it a 'pad for French Polishing' (possibly because 'rubber' has a different connotation), he describes the item as a "two-part pad made from an outer muslin cover and an absorbent inner cotton or wool core". He says that "the traditional pad for French polishing consists of wool wrapped with a linen cloth".

For padding shellac, he recommends a lint-free absorbent cloth wadded up into ball so that there are no wrinkles or seams on the bottom.

He goes on to describe the aircraft taking off and landing technique.

So I would suggest that what you describe as French Polishing in your extract above is actually what this author calls 'padding shellac', or something more akin to it.

[kekemo]

Glourious thread....wow....interesting reading...but hope I haven't managed to open....I was going to say "can of worms"....but think in this case I should say...."bucket of bugs"....lol...:C

Yes.... information is the basis...how we apply the information is up to us...and what techniques we use...are drafted by our character & personal application of product.....I am thankful for the advice...& knowledge that you have all given. I do appreicate your time & wisdom, hoping that I can become a skill crafts woman....who can one day pass on her own knowledge gleaned from my experience with the gorgeous product....:rolleyes:

So smooth. so easy. so inexpensive................So......I'm off to shed to throw this bed together....looks bloody great....feels better...only bed that I can say..."bed feels good" and not even be laying in it! :U

"Sh..ED's waiting........."
KEKEMO:2tsup:

[MacS]

Silent C

I know Jeff, he is a very knowledgable finisher.

This is my 2 cents on the subject.

French Polishing is a much more refined process, it is much more complex and requires more time to complete the French Polish finish.

I have mentioned pumice and rottensrtone on the forum before, these rubbing and polishing powders are used in some of the French Polishing process.

Wheras, padding shellac is a fast process of applying a coating with a pad or rubber instead of using a brush to apply the coatings.

The reason he avoids the term "rubber" is because it is not used over here.

Regarding, making up the "pad", althrogh it is normally made as Jeff describes it, I personally use a 12" x 12" piece of either trace or cheese cloth to make up the entire ball, the cloth inside the ball makes up the resoirvour (sp) so I don't use the cotton batting as Jeff does. Its a matter of preference, I have been doing this for over 50 years.

It is commonly taught as a airplane landing and then taking off, it makes it easy to describe to the students.

Did Jeff mention about padding lacquers and varnishes., these other padding agents are done as the same as the French Polish or the padding lacquers.

[silentC]

There are sections on various lacquer application techniques but he doesn't mention padding. He talks about 'wiping varnish' but not padding - possibly the same thing but he uses a flat folded cloth, rather than a wadded ball.

What I wanted to point out was that he, as an American and a published author in finishing techniques, still uses the traditional form of pad for French polishing and only uses a pad similar to your own when padding shellac. He might not call it a rubber, but it is by no means a custom limited to the UK and Australia as you suggested.

[Honorary Bloke]

I only sent the photo to show what the pads looks like, I am sure not many of you have ever seen a "pad" before, or I even heard of one.

My my, aren't the poppies tall this year. :)

[MacS]

There are sections on various lacquer application techniques but he doesn't mention padding. He talks about 'wiping varnish' but not padding - possibly the same thing but he uses a flat folded cloth, rather than a wadded ball.

No, its not padding, it would be like what you would call "wipe on oil finishes."

What, I wanted to point out was that he, as an American and a published author in finishing techniques, still uses the traditional form of pad for French polishing and only uses a pad similar to your own when padding shellac. He might not call it a rubber, but it is by no means a custom limited to the UK and Australia as you suggested.

I am not familar with all the countries that use a "rubber", I think the French also do. Its very rare to see " french polishers" using a rubber over here unless they are transplants.

Personally, I favor knowing the technique over whatever pad or rubber someone uses to do their french polishing or padding with lacquers.

[jerryc]

Bob,

Spot on.
When it gets to who's right and who's wrong I'm reminded of Jonathan Swift. Remember Gulliver's Travels? He had a delightful story of a war between the "Big enders" and the "Little enders". About what was the right way to crack a boiled egg.

Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

[silentC]

I favor knowing the technique over whatever pad or rubber someone uses
Well that would depend on whether or not you believe the technique is also comprised of the tools that are used. No doubt I could wave a piece of sponge or a scrunched up newspaper soaked in shellac in a manner imitating that used by French polishers but with dramatically poorer results. So you would have to concede that the form of the pad is important.

It then just remains to determine whether the traditional form of the rubber is more suited to the task than a wadded up ball of some material. I'm not expert enough to argue on that, so I'll leave that to others.

I'm also interested to note that your article makes no mention of the figure eight or circular movements that I usually associate with French polishing. Is that included as part of the technique, or is it also considered optional?

[jerryc]

Mac

Can't help you with what the French name for a rubber is, I doubt it is "rubber" but the Spanish word is muneca which means rag doll.

Just an addition to the waves of viewpoint and information this thread has, and always does, generate.

Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

[jerryc]

Silent,

Your point about interrelation between tool and technique is a very valid one. Using an analogy from woodwork, although both work, a sharp chisel does the work better than a blunt one.

Jerry


Everyone is entitled to my opinion

[MacS]

You guys do it your way, i'll stay with the pad and do it my way.

I thought it might be interesting to some of you to know french polishing is also done with a pad, I already knew what a "rubber" was I am sure some did not.

Jerry C, your right about the Spanish name "muneca," I heard and read that term before in some french polishing instructions on guitars..

[silentC]

I thought it might be interesting to some of you to know french polishing is also done with a pad
If I wanted to be controversial, I'd say that it doesn't appear to me that your method as documented above is French polishing at all, but rather a type of hybrid padding method that borrows a bit from the full French polishing technique. Which is fine, because that's just as legitimate a finish as anything else but I wouldn't call it French polishing.

I have here at my desk three books that describe French polishing and all agree that "French polishing" consists of 'rubbing' the shellac into the pores of the wood using a pad called a 'rubber' that is made from some sort of absorbent core wrapped in a lint-free material. A fourth book (Jeff Jewitt), as already discussed, also describes the same method, with the exception that the author does not refer to the applicator as a rubber, preferring to call it a pad. So to my mind, the rubbing motion and the use of the rubber are integral to the technique.

Your technique of applying the shellac in straight strokes similar to an aeroplane landing and taking off is what Neil refers to in his book as 'the swooge coat'. Which is a preliminary coat that takes place prior to using the rubber. It is done with the 'fad' which ultimately becomes the core of the rubber when it is wrapped in linen.

Jeff Jewitt also describes a similar technique, which he calls 'padding shellac' where he applies the shellac using the same aeroplane analogy - but always with the grain. This is where, if I understand it correctly, your method varies from true French polishing, in which the rubber is moved in a circular pattern over the surface.

[echnidna]

dontcha love it when a thread bottoms out and the discussion becomes over technical :D

[silentC]

I can't speak on a technical level because I'm a novice. I can only go by what I have read from the published experts. When there is a discrepancy between what I have read or understood and what someone else is telling me, I believe it's important to get to the heart of the misunderstanding. This is how we learn :)

[astrid]

Just curious,
If you dont use a rubber, how does a cloth fad hold enough polish to body up a 2 metre table without stopping half way to recharge, dont the whips harden up?
Astrid

[Sebastiaan56]

Well Im going to add to the technical arguments by commenting that there is a marked difference in the chatoyance of the finish depending on the type of shellac in use. I bought some ruby, button, blonde and garnet flakes to see if there was a better way to do sunbursts than dyeing. I took my piece from my woodwork lesson the other night, a lap joint, aussie cedar, gave it a lick of BLO and started on one piece with blonde, the other with garnet. How I can see the difference is the depth of the chatoyance, the garnet is showing more light. This is sooooo cool. Im waiting for an opportunity to try the others now.

I also want to propose that we dont use the term French Polish as well, we arent French are we? Lets call it Aussie polish, Pommie Polish, Yank Polish, Kiwi Polish etc, etc. Do you think going to Glenbrook Polish, Moorabbin Polish, York Polish and Clinton Polish (maybe call it a Monica?) would be pushing it?
bang bang crash!..... :doh:

[astrid]

interestingly enough, i believe that traditionaly the french dont french polish.
astrid

[silentC]

And they don't make french fries either :)

[MacS]

I think I will stop now, because this thread is now going no where.

There is more then one way of doing things, those of who prefer Neils' or Jeff's method then do it their way.

It makes no difference to me how you do it, most of you seem to be so closed minded and don't want to think that maybe there is another way that it can be done.. Its not for me to say which is the best way, and just because it is in print it don't mean its the right, or only way that it can be done.

I wrote a one page condensed article on how it can be done, Neil and Jeff wrote a book on the subject, do you expect the same amount of information in an article as in a book?

[Honorary Bloke]

Shallac.... want to learn everything there is to know about it....tell me more....who ever reads this...if you know anything...

Just another case of "Watch what you ask for, you might get it!" :rolleyes::D:D:D:D

[kekemo]

Gee Bob...this thread worked so well ...... thinking about putting it in the personal add...you know....tallented "wood buterfly"...looking for millionaire...with woodmill....must have own coffee machine....& 4WD...with room for excess wood....willing to share....most tools...BUT don't touch the FESTO...that's mine!!!!.......>>>>>>>>LOL...workshop comes with Airconditioning & enough power points to keep Alinta solvent!
......then ask if they know anything about SHELLAC? LOL....rolf..

No, really what a fantastic thread....now I have to keep just sitting here and reading it all the time....so information sinks in....trying to get copy of book....hey...I don't mind reading on all the techniques....know I will do it my way anyway....LOL.....but, hey my way hasn't been written...and yet to be experienced!!!

Just a little worried sounded like I had WW3 going on for a while....hope no-one got to upset.....

Just wanted to keep it light...and friendly...hey...promise I won't ask anymore questions....true!

Bedbase & bedhead....coming up a treat....should finish this by Friday....:2tsup:
Cheers KEKEMO

[silentC]

those of who prefer Neils' or Jeff's method then do it their way
I don't think either of them lay claim to it as being their way.


most of you seem to be so closed minded and don't want to think
That's a bit rude. Apart from Jerry having a couple of comments, which I found to be conciliatory, I'm the only one who has challenged your words. So how does that extend to 'most' of us?


I wrote a one page condensed article on how it can be done, Neil and Jeff wrote a book on the subject, do you expect the same amount of information in an article as in a book?
Jeff's French polishing section in his book covers a total of 2 pages, half of which is photos. He still manages to convey the fundamentals of the technique.

OK, ok, I will stop. :)

[Honorary Bloke]

Just wanted to keep it light...and friendly...hey...promise I won't ask anymore questions....true!



Kekemo,

Whatever you do, don't stop asking questions!! That's what the forum is all about. We're all adults (mostly) here and you can't get an answer if you don't ask the question. :2tsup:

[silentC]

Whatever you do, don't stop asking questions!!Yes, I apologise to Kekemo for being such an argumentative sod. :)

[jerryc]

Most noticeable feature of forums and life in general is "a LITTLE knowledge is a dangerous thing." So never take what is said as absolute truth. Always question and always be prepared to try things for yourself.

I'll give an example (Not woodwork) When I was learning to fly I was told "NEVER" side slip a high winged aircraft. It will spin and kill you. So I went up several thousand feet and did it. No problem. Flying with a crop duster pilot we were making an approach and he said we'd never make the field. I said I'd side slip. A crop duster pilot gripping the dash with white knuckles? It was quite a sight to see. Then he said "Can I try it? " A professional who had never tested the boundaries.

Whatever you do, within the bounds of safety, push the limits. Make mistakes and learn.

For example in using shellac I said I rarely use abrasives. What I didn't say was when I do sometimes in the early stages I don't clean of the dust but apply another coat straight over the work. The abrasive and shellac dust fills the grain quickly. Never saw it in print, although it might be, never been told to do it. Just thought about it and felt it worth a try.

Main thing is to enjoy the forum, enjoy the debate, and don't get personal.


Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

[RufflyRustic]

So back to Shellac, hints and tips of applying it.:)

Sebastian, What is 'chatoyance'? Any chance some photos of your work might help demonstrate this for me? I'm very intrigued with your idea of using different shellacs for, what was it, different tonings?:?



Mixed Shellac containers - I prefer to use a glass jar with a lid size that I can fit my fist through. Preferably a short, squat jar so that I only mix the amount of shellac needed for the job and a bit more.

cheers
Wendy

[Honorary Bloke]

Wendy,

Chatoyancy is the way the light is reflected from the finish, in other words, how the finish looks in different lights. It is borrowed from the jeweler's trade, which uses it to describe light reflection in gemstones. :)

[silentC]

I mix mine in old Maccona Coffee jars and I use empty U-Beaut bottles with the flip top lid to dispense it.

Jerry, I agree that experimentation is a good thing and to be encouraged - otherwise none of these things would ever have been discovered.

However I remember a conversation I had with my Dad when I was 19 and wanted to borrow $4,000 to buy a motorbike. He said "if only I could make you understand. I've been through all these things and if you'd only listen, I could stop you making the same mistakes I did". Another bloke once said "if I have seen further it is by standing on ye shoulders of Giants".

:)

[Honorary Bloke]

However I remember a conversation I had with my Dad when I was 19 and wanted to borrow $4,000 to buy a motorbike. He said "if only I could make you understand. I've been through all these things and if you'd only listen, I could stop you making the same mistakes I did".

Another vain hope, as I see it. I never did. Had to make 'em all meself. Did a right proper job of it too. :D

[jerryc]

Silent,

I did say within the bounds of safety. As for standing on the shoulders of giants it can be dangerous if he gets irritable and shakes you off.
Trouble with all these wise sayings there's always a counter. Could be the subject of a thread

Faint heart never won fair lady. Look before you leap.

I know your dad when he gave advice about m'cycle was following "You can't put an old head on young shoulders." Problem is if you could do so it wouldn't fit.

Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion:)

[silentC]

OK here's another analogy. I'm a drummer. Well, when I say that, I play drums in a band, but I have never had a lesson. I have enough of an intuitive feel for it that I can get away with it and most casual observers are fooled into thinking I know what I'm doing.

However, they might be surprised to know that I cannot do the most basic of stick techniques. Paradiddles are beyond me, as are Swiss Army triplets or any of those marching band rudiments. This lets me down badly and prevents me from being the drummer I could be, if only I knew the basics. I also find it difficult to go off beat with the kick (bass) drum.

These things are the type of technique that a few lessons when I was starting out would have instilled in me so that they became second nature. Then I could have built on these fundamentals. It's probably too late for me now, but my advice to anyone wanting to play the drums is to concentrate on the fundamentals and the flamboyance will come.

I think this applies to many things in life. :)

[Glennet]

The Taunton press also produce a Jeff Jewitt DVD "Hand Applied Finishes" where he demonstrates French polishing. I haven't tried his method, it looks great, but time consuming.
I'd have thought the DVD is worth getting, I don't know how you could explain it properly in writing. I've got a few of the Taunton DVD's and they are all good. They take a long time to arrive if you order them from the USA, and only play on a region free DVD player.

[Sebastiaan56]

So back to Shellac, hints and tips of applying it.:)

Sebastian, What is 'chatoyance'? Any chance some photos of your work might help demonstrate this for me? I'm very intrigued with your idea of using different shellacs for, what was it, different tonings?:?



Mixed Shellac containers - I prefer to use a glass jar with a lid size that I can fit my fist through. Preferably a short, squat jar so that I only mix the amount of shellac needed for the job and a bit more.

cheers
Wendy

Wendy, I cant lie, I picked the term up off the forum, off a liguistically erudite Skew. Im in a conference so I'll post when I get back to BM's. I also posted straight after applying the finish and havent seen the pieces for a few days.

[RufflyRustic]

Thanks Sebastian! Oh, and thanks Skew :D

[Groggy]

chatoyant
/shuh'toyuhnt/.
adjective
1. changing in lustre or colour.
2. Jewellery reflecting a single streak of light when cut in a cabochon.
[French, present participle of chatoyer change lustre like a cat's eye, from chat cat]


In woodworking it is often used in relation to a peculiar finishing problem. Sometimes an item that is matched and finished in artificial light will look completely different in natural light, and vice versa. It happens occasionally that a piece is made and finished to match another piece, but, when finally put together, the pieces do not match at all.

[Offcut71]

Hi everyone, first time post here...

Is shellac available clear or just coloured? I'm making a jewellery box from myrtle and huon pine and the shellac has made the huon much more honeyed coloured than I originally wanted... I've started with the tray so I can still back away from the shellac if I decide it's not the look I want.

Will the 15 or so coats of shellac darken the colour much further or will it remain similar to the first coat? I know multiple coats of stain will darken (obviously), kind of hoping this won't get darker but expecting that it will...

Cheers,

Pete

[RufflyRustic]

Dewaxed shellac or White Shellac is what you are looking for.

cheers
Wendy

[Sebastiaan56]

Hi Wendy,

After a week there is no difference between the two pieces apart from colour, maybe a trick of the light or overtired eyes? wishful thinking?

Sebastiaan

[RufflyRustic]

Wierd! I will have to remember this and see if I can play around with some different brands of shellac at some stage, just for fun.

thanks Sebastiaan

Cheers
Wendy

[Jon G]

Hopefully I am not stirring up a hornets nest, but I see that you guys all seem to mix Shellac flakes with metho.

I have been taught to use a 90% alcohol 10% shellac solution, called Shellac Finish, with the flakes, as this apparently gives a deeper finish, whereas "metho can leave it a bit cloudy".

As I have only used this method once so far and never with metho, I would be grateful if you guys can give me your opinions on this.

[jerryc]

Jon G

As an ex pom I vaguely remember that UK meth had a blue dye mixed with it. Is that the case? If so then the dye would certainly cloud the finish. Here meth is clear, although the addition of water with the cheaper meth could affect the clarity of the finish. It's not a pun but I am asking for clarification of this dye point. I'm dying to know the answer ( terrible pun).

Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion.

[Sebastiaan56]

Hopefully I am not stirring up a hornets nest, but I see that you guys all seem to mix Shellac flakes with metho.

I have been taught to use a 90% alcohol 10% shellac solution, called Shellac Finish, with the flakes, as this apparently gives a deeper finish, whereas "metho can leave it a bit cloudy".

As I have only used this method once so far and never with metho, I would be grateful if you guys can give me your opinions on this.

Metho here in Aus contains 5% water, I use "Industrial Metholated Spirits" which is <1% water and recommended by the gurus. Water in the solution can lead to cloudiness. Different dilutions are used at different stages, start with a lower cut finish with a high cut.

Of course if you are drinking it you can mix to taste,

[rsser]

It's amazing to see for example how a usually dull wood like Blackwood will with a Shellac or Oil finish 'pop', ie. show chatoyance or iridescence. It's a quality of reflecting the light differently as it falls from different angles making the surface look three-dimensional.

btw, I have a p/c of a very old book on French Polishing and it seems way back when they mixed various gums into the mix, eg. benzoin. Wonder if they added hardness or elasticity to the finish.

[Jon G]

Metho over here can have a dye in it, can't remember if it is blue or purple, but I believe my tutor was meaning the clear version.

Everywhere I look over here seems to sell Metho to mix with Shellac flakes, except for Mylands, who sell the mysterious Shellac Finish.

[MacS]

A small amount of dye is added to many solvents, this is done so they can tell which solvent it is by the color of the dye. A common chemical practice used in different solvents.

The amount is so small, you will not see it in the clear coats.

[Jon G]

Metho here in Aus contains 5% water, I use "Industrial Metholated Spirits" which is <1% water and recommended by the gurus. Water in the solution can lead to cloudiness. Different dilutions are used at different stages, start with a lower cut finish with a high cut.

Of course if you are drinking it you can mix to taste,
Thanks Sebastiaan56, I will see if I can find similar here and do a comparison to alcohol. :)

[Alastair]

Just some comments for the record, coming from someone who has just recently taken to FP, (self taught) after doing a lot of research and experimentation.

Ethanol, (which is sold in Oz as 'metho'), is formed by fermentation, and will naturally only reach about 15% alcohol. To concentrate this, it would be distilled over a rectification column. Due to the fact that ethanol forms a constant boiling "or azeotrope" mixture with water, the highest purity which can be reached like this is 95% ethanol. This is the normal "industrial metho" available. (In more modern times, most metho is manufactured by catalytic conversion, but the limitations on purity remain, for the most part.)

It is also the only "high test" metho which would have been available at the time that French Polishing was the classical standard of fine finishes.

Higher purities require technology more recent. In addition, unless kept in perfectly sealed containers, these will rapidly absorb water vapour from the atmosphere, until they also settle at 95%.

95% is perfectly suitable for all parts of shellac use. What one has to watch out for is that a lot of "metho" which is sold (through retail trade, chain hardware etc) actually carries no specification, and can be, and often is, significantly below this level. Neil has previously posted a quick test to check if metho is pure enough for shellac, in an exhaustative thread on metho last year.

I have done some looking around for "industrial metho" and where I have found it, it comes with a specification (on the drum) on 95% ethanol. By buying this, you are at least sure that you are getting material good enough for your requirements.

hope this helps

[rsser]

Thanks Alastair.

In Vic Mitre 10 often have or can get in 'industrial' meths made by Sceneys.

[Jon G]

Thanks Alistair :D

[bucket1]

One of the things I love about shellac is that you can get so many different kinds of finishes from the one product. Whether it be sprayed, brushed, wiped, rubbed or however you like to apply it, a finish like no other is relatively easily achievable. When you talk to "experts" it is often quite amusing to hear how many different forms the best method of application takes (and how wrong everyone else is).
My five cents worth is to remember it is not paint, if you try to use it like paint it will only frustrate you.
It is the easiest polish to use but can also be the hardest at the same time.
If you have a method that works for you then use it.
Always be open to new ideas as sometimes even a small change in your perfect method can yeild some great results.
I have been using shellac professionally for nearly 25 years now but would never claim to be an expert or to know all there is to know. I still surprise myself occasionally when I learn something new or try a new method.
And if you dont like how your finish came out, just wash it off with meths.
Hhhmmm, think that might have been 30 cents worth.
Anyhow, never be too afraid to experiment with how you apply shellac as you wont find a more forgiving polish.

[astrid]

Excellent 30 cents worth:2tsup:

Astrid:)

[redcentral]

A shellac related question.

I'm doing up a second hand desk and it has a fairly big dint (about 8mm deep) in the top that I will need to fill. The desk top is made of plywood and I'm wondering what I can use to fill the hole. I have an idea of using some of the wood just mixed with shellac and painted on in thin layers.

Are there any downsides to do this? Will the fill end up darker than the surrounding wood?

The desk is for a child so while it needs to be functional and I want it to look good, it's very cheap and I'm not worried about trying out new techniques on it.

[Groggy]

Get a plug cutter (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32320&cat=1,180,42288) and cut a plug from an area of the desk that is out of sight (underneath). Insert the plug into the hole then just fill any remaining fine imperfections. I'm assuming the hole is reasonably small of course.

[redcentral]

Groggy - Thanks for the info and link on the plugs. I am a real novice so wasn't even aware of the concept. The plugs look like a lot of fun...I could just imagine doing something decorative with different types of wood.

I didn't mention that I'm taking part in a "no spend" challenge so I was hoping to use items already at home.

I actually tried the shellac mixed with wood dust a bit earlier. It has worked really well though it's darker than the surrounding wood. The fill fits in quite well with the wood grain colour (even after finishing). For an even better colour match, in the future, I would try white shellac. At least the fill I used looks better than the existing, almost white plug on the side of the cabinet.