More Sorry Suggestions

[dazzler]

Hi

Just got off the phone with Kev, thats Mr Rudd to you lot, and he just wanted to check if there was anything else that was done before I was born that we should apologise for, seeing as he's in the mood for it.

So he's agreed to add in an apology for the following;

1. On behalf of the Army to my Grandad who was a deaf mute and the army didnt believe him and made him undergo invasive tests during WW2.

2. On behalf of Births Deaths and Marriages for spelling my fathers middle name incorrectly on his certificate

3. On behalf of the French Govt for killing my Great Great Great Great Grandfather for being a Hugenot, stealing his land and exiling his family to the Channel Islands with nothing but the clothes they were wearing.

4. On behalf of my Grandmother for taking my mother and uncle off her and placing them in foster care (Just because she was a drunken scrag is no excuse)

So thats my short list but he is very excited to be apologising for others so feel free to give him a ring and he can add yours to the list. Just remember it needs to be before you were born and outside your control.

cheers

dazzler

[Gingermick]

Well I'd like to him to apologise for Dazzler.:p

[dazzler]

Well I'd like to him to apologise for Dazzler.:p

I agree....but only from them what wasnt here when he was created :wink:

[Greg Ward]

For all the hard work and injuries my poor grandfather suffered to manually cut down trees to clear his selection, at a time when it was mandatory for clearances to be made to keep the land.
Greg

[Sebastiaan56]

School in the 60's/70's, Bronwyn Bishop, Menzies.

[ernknot]

Sorry for what? I didn't do anything to anybody to be sorry for. The sins of my forefathers are not my sisns. Here in Tassie Micheal Manson wants a Billion $ from us ( the taxpayers) to put in a trust fund. Saying sorry for what is going to be flamin expensive. What about all the other displaced people in the world? Are they going to be compensated by those who took their lands, possesions, children, mothers and fathers, not only took them but murdered them etc. Think about it.
Sure, a wrong was done but it does mean it needs to be $ompensated. What about all those English kiddies that were taken to Oz for their "own protection". Most of them have never or will never see their families again. I get whole heartly sick of the whinging "indigounous" people. Why don't they pull their finger out and join the rest of the civilised world? No money in that I guess.

[Waldo]

Dazzler,

Just don't apologise on my part, I didn't do anything, okay?


Saying sorry for what is going to be flamin expensive. What about all the other displaced people in the world? Are they going to be
Yeah, look what happened in Canada.

It also happened to "white" people too.

[Pheonix]

We apologise for giving you doctors and free medical care,which allows you to survive and multiply so that you can demand apologies.
We apologise for helping you to read and teaching you the english langauage and thus we opened up to you the entire European civilisation,thought and enterprise.
We feel that we must apolgise for building hundreds of homes for you ,which you have vandalised and destroyed.
We apologise for giving you law and order which has helped tp prevent you from slaughtering one another and using the unfortunate for food purposes.
We apologise for developing large farms and properties ,which today feed you people, where before, you had the benefits of living off the land and staving during droughts.
We apologise for providing you with warm clothing made of fabrics to replace animal skins you used before.

etc etc etc :((

[Gra]

who is going to apologise for sending my relos all the way from England to Australia against their will,

[astrid]

This thread sucks.
and i'll say no more to all you pathetic sods regarding your trivial little whinges
I am disgusted

Astrid

[wayfarer]

As far as I can understand the "apology" is not from individuals for wrongs they've not done even if they do benefit from those wrongs.

It's from one society to another.

One society has done well in this country often at the expense and at best ignorance or arrogance and spite of the other. And it's not wealth or health they're on about.
It's about destroying a culture and admitting it was destroyed and realising how serious a thing it was/is.

Imagine if almost all of your heritage was wiped from your society.

Obliterated.

How "displaced" would you feel? What if your only real choice is to adapt to another culture or perish. And even if you adapt they still hate you and never accept you.

Our past societies committed genocide, not us. But it's time to take a stand and admit the actions of the past were wrong even if we as individuals did not commit them.

Sure, if it wasn't the British Empire it would have been the Japanese, or the Americans, or Indonesian, someone, eventually, was going to come along and devastate a culture, take over the land and benefit from it's resources and opportunities.
But it wasn't any of them.
It was us.
It was OUR responsibility and we handled it badly.
Not weas individuals, we as a society.

As far as Kevin Krudd making the GOVERNMENT apologise; well, I happen to disagree. A formal apology from the government is insincere. An apology has to come from people, not politicians claiming to represent us. I know that sounds contradictory, and that, in my opinion, is why this problem will never go away (apology or not) until there is only one society left.

And what a sad day that will be.

[Burnsy]

I thought the apology was for the stolen generation and had nothing to do with the genocide initiated and perpetrated by the English government. This is half the problem here, many Australians are not sure what the apology is for and are therefore not totally happy with it. The apology debate has also caused many people who have sat in silence for a long time to finally feel that it is OK to speak up about what they perceive to be the additional benefits that many Aboriginal Australians receive that they are not able to receive. I think there is going to be alot of this talk this year to the point that the government may have to create equailty in regard to social security and other benefits.

The West Aust on Saturday had an interesting article about a retired aboriginal welfare officer who was responsible from removing children half caste from their parents as was the policy of he day. He indicates that he feels that there were many who were better off being removed, however does state that there were those who suffered because they were removed from functional families.

Edit - I can't spell apology so had to change it - who is going to apologise for that?

[dazzler]

This thread sucks.
and i'll say no more to all you pathetic sods

Astrid

Why astrid?

Because I find it wrong for the prime minister of my country to apologise on my behalf for something that I had no part in committing.

We had sorry day and all and sundry could sign books and express guilt at what had occurred to Indigenous People. I am pleased that they could do that if they felt it was what they wanted to do. Have another Sorry Day by all means, a Festival for those that survived by all means. Whatever takes ones fancy, but dont apologise on our behalf without asking first, or showing ones guilt.

As a nation we have been bullied into this and it will just further weaken our society that already sees many viewing life as a victim.

And heres the thing Astrid, a friend of my wifes has just returned from a remote community in the NT as part of the intervention. She would be one of the most caring and culturally tolerant people on this planet and her summation after six months trying to help was that the children need to be taken and raised away from these communities so they have some chance in life. Sounds familiar doesnt it. But of course we are now so limp that we would prefer to shut our eyes and pretend that they are all living a happy life and everything is great because we are saying sorry for something that happened before most of us were born.

My mother was taken from her unfit mother as a child, does she deserve an apology as well. If not why not?. If you are responsible for the one then your responsible for the other.

I totally support victims compensation for those who as a result of being removed from unfit parents were abused/neglected or hurt in any way. I also support prosecutions regardless of age of offenders who committed crimes. I support free medical and psychological help for anyone who needs it. This is how we as a society can help people who have been injured by others.

Perhaps you can explain how and why saying sorry will help, without insulting me as in your last post. :)

[wayfarer]

I thought the apology was for the stolen generation and had nothing to do with the genocide initiated and perpetrated by the English government. This is half the problem here, many Australians are not sure what the apology is for and are therefore not totally happy with it. The apology debate has also caused many people who have sat in silence for a long time to finally feel that it is OK to speak up about what they perceive to be the additional benefits that many Aboriginal Australians receive that they are not able to receive. I think there is going to be alot of this talk this year to the point that the government may have to create equailty in regard to social security and other benefits.

The West Aust on Saturday had an interesting article about a retired aboriginal welfare officer who was responsible from removing children half caste from their parents as was the policy of he day. He indicates that he feels that there were many who were better off being removed, however does state that there were those who suffered because they were removed from functional families.

Edit - I can't spell apology so had to change it - who is going to apologise for that?

The stolen generation thing has morphed into a focal point for the wider problem. IMHO, the stolen generation is not something to apologuise for where children were removed from dangerous situations, but it wasn't always the case either.

It's a hopeless situation, but demeaning or belittling it with "I want an apology because I stubbed my toe" doesn't help.

[Wongo]

We apologise for giving you doctors and free medical care,which allows you to survive and multiply so that you can demand apologies.
We apologise for helping you to read and teaching you the english langauage and thus we opened up to you the entire European civilisation,thought and enterprise.
We feel that we must apolgise for building hundreds of homes for you ,which you have vandalised and destroyed.
We apologise for giving you law and order which has helped tp prevent you from slaughtering one another and using the unfortunate for food purposes.
We apologise for developing large farms and properties ,which today feed you people, where before, you had the benefits of living off the land and staving during droughts.
We apologise for providing you with warm clothing made of fabrics to replace animal skins you used before.

etc etc etc :((

I want some too. That sounds bloody fantastic. :rolleyes:

[astrid]

get over you, dazzler,
This apology is about the representitives of the non indiginous australian people saying sorry for the destruction of another culture, by deliberately breaking up the ties that held that culture together, its not about you, or your grandad.
If any one of you has read one book on this subject, not the herald or the australian, but has bothered to go to the library and read one book,
then you may be entitled to an opinion


Astrid

[RETIRED]

Keep it nice kiddies or this thread may disappear.

[Burnsy]

We apologise for giving you doctors and free medical care,which allows you to survive and multiply so that you can demand apologies.
We apologise for helping you to read and teaching you the english langauage and thus we opened up to you the entire European civilisation,thought and enterprise.
We feel that we must apolgise for building hundreds of homes for you ,which you have vandalised and destroyed.
We apologise for giving you law and order which has helped tp prevent you from slaughtering one another and using the unfortunate for food purposes.
We apologise for developing large farms and properties ,which today feed you people, where before, you had the benefits of living off the land and staving during droughts.
We apologise for providing you with warm clothing made of fabrics to replace animal skins you used before.

etc etc etc :((
I thought I had said everything I wanted but no there's more............

I have received the email with the above on it from at least 10 people. Most of these people I believe to be very compasionate and non-discriminatory. The fact that these type of people are sending on this message that we all really know is inappropriate and should not be condoned really does show that many Australians are not comfortable with the current situation and are of the belief that saying sorry is not the answer. As I said earlier, I don't believe that the Australian public as a whole are going to stomach the whole sorry thing without demanding that some changes occur in regard to the equality of all Australians.

Personally, I believe that John Howard was right with not saying sorry as a nation and with intervention as well. I think sorry needs to come from individuals and actions always speak louder than words in this regard. I also think intervention should have been Australia wide and without race boundaries. There are plenty of Anglo Australians that should have their benefits and children removed from them today as they are creating a cycle of abuse that appears to keep getting bigger with each generation (and the generations are getting larger and closer together).

[johnc]

I don't have a problem with the Government saying sorry for past injustices and errors. From forced removals sometimes without adequate justification and for the massacres often handed out by local pastoralists, with tacit approval from the authorities at the time. This is a side show to the very real problems faced by the Aboriginal community and sorry seems to be a hurdle that must be cleared. The real issues are the intractible ones of health, education, opportunity and attitiude. The indiginous community also has to face up to the fact that it is part of the problem as well and rather than the odd claim for compensation realise that a lot of money is being thrown at the problem and they now need to become part of the solution. This will be a very long road and one not helped by bleating on about who should be saying sorry. It is time the debate moved onto what needs to be done and the past allowed to rest.

[astrid]

so, burnsy, have you read one book.

Astrid

Johnc I agree in ageneral sense, but sorry has to be said,

[wayfarer]

EDIT>>>

Personally, I believe that John Howard was right with not saying sorry as a nation and with intervention as well. I think sorry needs to come from individuals and actions always speak louder than words in this regard. I also think intervention should have been Australia wide and without race boundaries. There are plenty of Anglo Australians that should have their benefits and children removed from them today as they are creating a cycle of abuse that appears to keep getting bigger with each generation (and the generations are getting larger and closer together).

The NSW Dept of Community Services (DOCS), while it doesn't have a great record, does remove children from dangerous families as often as it can. It's not restricted to ethic groups as far as I know.
I don't know how removing benefits helps people; just the opposite I'd imagine.

[wayfarer]

I don't have a problem with the Government saying sorry for past injustices and errors. From forced removals sometimes without adequate justification and for the massacres often handed out by local pastoralists, with tacit approval from the authorities at the time. This is a side show to the very real problems faced by the Aboriginal community and sorry seems to be a hurdle that must be cleared. The real issues are the intractible ones of health, education, opportunity and attitiude. The indiginous community also has to face up to the fact that it is part of the problem as well and rather than the odd claim for compensation realise that a lot of money is being thrown at the problem and they now need to become part of the solution. This will be a very long road and one not helped by bleating on about who should be saying sorry. It is time the debate moved onto what needs to be done and the past allowed to rest.

Top post! :D

[astrid]

Good point, wayfarer, but dont let them have an excuse to change the subject.
Astrid

[Wongo]

:rico:

[astrid]

Thanks wongo, but stop sitting on the fence.

this is serious,
astrid

[Burnsy]

so, burnsy, have you read one book.

Astrid

Johnc I agree in ageneral sense, but sorry has to be said,

I have read a couple, actually have Grief Gaiety and Aborigines in front of me now. I am nowhere near full bottle on the topic and don't for a minute believe that removing all children without reason as was the policy was the right thing to do (I am sure it was best for some but nowhere near all) however I don't believe that the government saying sorry is going to help anyone. I think it could be the opposite. I may however be wrong and as JohnC has said it may well be what is needed to move forward.


The NSW Dept of Community Services (DOCS), while it doesn't have a great record, does remove children from dangerous families as often as it can. It's not restricted to ethic groups as far as I know.
I don't know how removing benefits helps people; just the opposite I'd imagine.

Same here Wayfarer, but it does not happen enough. I have worked with non-aboriginal children who are one of seven and mum is 24 and she was quoted as saying she does it for the money. By removal of benefits I really should have said management of benefits such as the use of finance cards that only allow for the purchase of certain goods through certain outlets to stop child benefits and other payments being squanded on alcohol and drugs.

[artme]

I'm with Astrid.
How many of you have had contact with people who were taken from their families?
How many of you have bothered to sit and discern the real issues?
The Aboriginal people of this country have been subjected to the rough end of the pineapple too many times. Read your history and learn about the disgraceful and supercillious manner in which these peolple were treated!!
Let me tell you a little story. An Aboriginal YACS worker I knew years ago, and had the pleasure of working with, was raised on a "mission".
At intervals "The Inspector" would drive to the "mission" unannounced.
Many in the community, on hearing his vehicle approaching over a nearby rattley bridge would simply take to the bush.
My mate's mother would line the family up at the end of the kitchen table and wait patiently as "The Inspector" freely inspected the house checking off a long list - beds made, clothes clean, floors swept eyc., etc., etc.,.
"The Inspector" would then sit at the table and write a report while the family watched in silence. The result of that report determined God knows what.
I cannot imagine the humiliation of such an experience once let alone time after time.
Another Aboriginal co-worker of mine was taken to Cootamundra for no other reason than the fact that she was an Aboriginal child. I was at a gathering one day of fellow workers, many of whom were Aboriginal. This was when this lady (in her forties!) finally learnt much about the blank pages in her life simply because she met another lady with a similar background and they had realtives in common. The excitement on later meeting up with long lost relatives can only be imagined.
When this happens with the rest of the population it is cause for celebration in the media. Why Not with Aboriginal people?
How many of us saw the program "The Leaving of Liverpool' and were apalled by the story it told?
How many of you have read Dee Brown's book "Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee"? If you haven't then I suggest you do and translate it straight to Australia and it's treatment of the Aboriginal inhabitants.
I don't feel retroguilt. It was nothing to do with me.I am not a religious peson in the sense that most of us understand. But I caannot sit this out and not feel some parallel with the parable of "the Good Samaritan." By that I mean I am not about to let something go by that is wrong on the grounds that it is not my fault or my problem.
For all those who wish to take a snide and despicable position on this issue then take a good look at the broader picture and at least try to work out what this apology really means.

[astrid]

Burnsie
I'm glad you have enough real interest to read books:2tsup:
but dont confuse the sad situations that some people end up in with the general issue of cultural geneoside

and many of those so called benefits, are the same as given to white folk under a different name.
beware of stuff read in the mainsteam.
my father in law thought koori aquaintance was getting free petrol.
He was a Telstra liney .
There has been so much mischievious misinformation put about, that it's hard to separate fact from fiction.

please keep on topic

Astrid

[flynnsart]

This is a very controversial subject I think I will just bite my tongue:p

Donna

[Jack E]

Astrid,

What is your experince or qualification on the subject?
Please note where I live, I believe I have a little experience on the topic.

Cheers, Jack

[astrid]

goodo, jackE what is your experience, and what books have you read.
we're talking about the stolen generation here, not individual opinions.
astrid

[jow104]

All colonials are welcome back, I will meet them off the boat if necessary.:D

[bitingmidge]

Having lived where Jack lives in the fifties and early sixties, although i was just a kid, I lived with "stolen" kids, in fact some of them used to stay with us on their way home to visit their parents - yep, they weren't all incarcerated.

I also lived with kids who weren't "stolen".

I have to say if there was any angst among the kids that i knew, they hid it well. That is not to say that some weren't treated badly or harshly, nor that the whole thing wasn't immensely wrong or at best misguided, but a lot of books have been written by people who weren't there.

A lot of white kids were treated badly and harshly in those days too, often by their own parents.

There are a couple of pics from the late 50's that I have that are a bit relevant, but I'm guessing you blokes with your book learnin' won't spot the stolen kids. I'm not being cryptic, and I'm not going to explain, but you're welcome to check out the first batch I've uploaded:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bitingmidge/collections/72157603668260915/

Cheers,

P

[Jack E]

Astrid,

The thing with books is that they are mostly written to express a point of view from one side.
I think the apology needs to be clarified.
If there is proof of a stolen generation, then it should be possible to track down those DIRECTLY affected by it an issue an apology to them only.

Cheers, Jack

[astrid]

JackE ' I think that has already been done.
have you gone to the library and read any books, keith windshuttle is on your side, have you bothered to read him?
and midge , we are talking about those stolen by the government, and hence the apology.Have you read any books midge?
Just to show my unbias on this, there was a land owners daughter in heywood,vic
who amused herself with writing local histories in the 1960'6 and 70's.
She wrote a whole book on the wars, and stolen generation before it became mainstream,
her name was Vanda Saville, and you may get her books through the local historical society.
I wont vouch for accuracy, but it exists.

Astrid

astrid

[Jack E]

Are you a librarian or do you own a book shop?
How about experience?

How do you know what "my side" is?

My side is not whether what the government did at the time is morally correct or incorrect.

My argument is that everything done was within the laws at the time and consequently no apology is justified.

Simple really.

Cheers, Jack

[bitingmidge]

Astrid, some of my best friends were "stolen". I've met kids who had a fearful time, and kids who had the opportunity of their life.

I know white kids who were sent away to boarding school in the fifties at age 6 not to return to their properties till they'd finished high school nine years later. Their suffering was no less than many. It was a common thing in those days. It's the whole cultural context which gets ignored from this whole argument.

Bloody labour government. It was them that did it you know! :wink:

Have I read books? No.

I have no wish to read them. I was there. I've sung songs, I've heard them sung. I've cried real tears too.

but I still don't need to apologise.

P
:cool:

[astrid]

Oh hello, (not you midge, i'll get to you later)
what the nazi's did to the gypsies, homosexuals and Jews, was within the law at the time,
when it happens in living memory, are you too small to appologise, or in this case let your government apologise on your ancestors behalf.
Shame on you

Astrid

[Jack E]

What the Nazi's did was, in their view, for the betterment of the Nazi's.
What happened to the "stolen generation", in the view of the government of the time, was for the betterment of the "stolen generation"

I consider your comparasin of genocide to our "stolen generation" a great insult to the jews, gays and gypsies of Europe in WWII.

Cheers, Jack

[journeyman Mick]

OK,
here's my take on it.
Please note: I haven't read any books at all on the subject. My knowledge and views on the subject comes from a quarter of a century of personal experience. It includes my first experience of working at a local community, with one of the older ladies putting her arm around me during morning tea and saying "You know Michael, we glad you got this job, us coloured folks got to stick together"
I have several small indigenous communities a few minutes drive from my home and a larger one about 40 minutes away, flat out in our rural fire truck.
I have spent a bit of time on other, larger indigenous communities in the region
I have worked for/with/on some of these communities.
I have worked at an indigenous alcohol rehab centre
I have worked at the local high school which has a high percentage of indigenous students
I've worked at a school for indigenous students
I've seen a lot of potential but I've seen a hell of a lot of grief, misery, squalor and hopelessness.

Sometimes when I see what happens I really believe that in many cases many kids would be far better off away from their home environment, away from the alcohol, the petrol sniffing, the paint sniffing ("chroming") laundry detergent eating (yes, it really happens) the physical abuse, the pack rapes of chlldren, the environment of violence and fear, the poor hygiene, the malnutrition, the home environment that doesn't support or encourage reading or education, all the crap that no kid in Austalia in this day and age should endure.

I don't know what the motivation was for the forced removal of children from their families, but I do know that knowing what I know and seeing what I've seen, that if I had the power to take kids out of this environment and place them in one where they could be nurtured and educated I'd do so. So flame me.

Another interesting point, I heard Noel Pearson (Indigenous leader, with the Cape York Institute) talking on the radio. He was talking about the "victim mentality" and the fact that many indigenous organisations had painted the picture of their people as victims as a strategic move in order to win concessions/money/whatever from the government. He said that in many cases it had been succesful but that the price was that their people had come to see themselves as victims. Victims are passive, they don't "do" they wait for someone to "do" for them. He contrasted this with the Jewish people who endured an intense and murderous persection during WWII and for ceturies prior to this. They however, did not identify themselves as victims but did ensure that their persecution was not allowed to be forgotten.

I've had a pretty tough time for the last decade, not being persecuted but caring for an ailing wife who finally succumbed to brain tumours last year. For that entire time I toughed it out and never allowed myself to feel sorry for myself and the situation I was in. Just recently I allowed myself to do so as part of the "grieving process". Bloody hell, that was almost harder than what had happened prior. I allowed myself to be a "victim", feel sorry for myself and I sunk into clinical depression. I've clawed my way out and I can tell you that being a "victim" doesn't do you any good at all.

What is considered to be a wise course of action today may be looked back on in 50 years time as very unenlightened. I got the cane when i was a kid. My parents skills weren't as warm and fuzzy as many of today's parents are. I was spanked, belted and yelled at. I was seldom, if ever, encouraged. There's a whole heap of things in my upbringing I could identify and say "well, I don't think that was the best way to do it and I'd do it better". Should I spend the rest of my life moaning that I've been hard done by and expect my parents to apologise for not doing a better job? I think I've been better served by getting on with life and making the best of things.

Will an apology help indigenous people solve their problems? And it's they who need to come up with the solutions to the problems, not because they created the problems - because they didn't. But because they're the only ones that can create real and enduring solutions and that's what they need, not apologies.

Mick
(the soapbox orator)

[Jack E]

Spot on Mick.
I think the best thing would be if we all just called each other "Australian"
No black, white, islander aboriginal or any other name.

Cheers, Jack

[astrid]

HOW many times do I have to say this, we are not talking about individual cases,
we are supposed to be talking about an apology to the generation that were for political reasons, taken from there parents and families because they were half black,
Sorry is a small word, but apparently only big people can say it.
Sometimes i think that some people are politicising this, for there own trivial self interest,

Astrid

[Jack E]

Sorry is a small word, but apparently only big people can say it.
That statement implies that we all AGREE an apology is necessary but are too small to say sorry.
You don't seem to be able to comprehend that not everybody believes we should say sorry.
I am not too small to say sorry, if I believe an apology is justified.

Sometimes i think that some people are politicising this, for there own trivial self interest, or the interest of a political party, such as kevin dudd, our short term leader:)

Cheers, Jack

[Greg Ward]

Most Australians are city based. They get their 'learnin' from books.

For these, 'Sorry' it is an emotional thing, an easy way to get out of having to really do anything of consequence.

Most city folks who agree with 'the sorry' dont know any aborigonals, have never met any aboriginals, have hardly seen them, have never been to the outback or even Purfleet, wouldn't have any knowledge of their problems or any solutions either: saying sorry makes them feel good.

It achieves little else.

I guess the debate does generate awareness of problems in our society, but I admit to being confused......I thought Mal Brough was doing a great job, assisting in the NT but I must have been wrong as he wasn't re-elected.

Greg

[Gingermick]

Perhaps you can explain how and why saying sorry will help

Symbolic reconciliation

[artme]

Exactly Mick!!:2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

[MICKYG]

This has been an interesting read. I have just realised my lack of compassion is because I have not read a book. I have always been a believer in helping others where you can, be it financially or by any other method. The past thirty five years has seen literally billions of dollars spent trying to help those who need help.
"you cannot help those who have no desire or will to help themselves, except maybe take away the bloody grog".
The "Stolen" generations which are written about can be said of every people on this earth and the people of today really did not play a part in this. I believe that the quicker the Goverment of the day starts to treat every body as equal in Australia the quicker this crap will mend itself, it may take another fifty years or so.

Would someone please tell me why on every form that you fill out you are asked if you are aboriginal or torres straight islander. Perhaps if every one ticked this box on every form we may solve a few problems created by the powers to be ourselves.

I hope Kev does not say sorry on my behalf, I do not consider that I have done any one on this earth a wrong of any type or description.:no:

Regards Mike

[Sturdee]

I'm an immigrant who came after these injustices were done. I personally did not do any of this.

BUT I'm glad that the nation, through its natianal parliament tackles this problem and acknowledges that wrongs were done by previous generations and says sorry.

Hopefully this will be a turning point in our relations with the original people of this country and that we now start to deal with each other as Australians, not white or black or aboriginals or dutch or chinese Australians, but Australians, like our anthem says. That race and racial backgrounds become obsolete and irrelevant.


BTW there are already legal mechanisms in place for anyone aggrieved by previous governments action to claim compensation if a court considers it to be just, so there is no reason not to say sorry in that regard.


Peter.

[Andy Mac]

Interesting thread, and goes to show there is more than woodshavings talked about here!
If saying the S word clears the air and enables everyone to move on, with a real effort from both sides to improve to living standards of indigenous people, I'm all for it. I detest that other word 'closure' too, but if that what it takes...
As long as it doesn't open up the floodgates for compensation claims, as many people fear (prompted no doubt by self-serving legal parasites), I can't see the problem.
It would appear to be specifically about the stolen generation, but has come to include a wider cultural disruption, and as said earlier, its a symbolic gesture.

(Personally I'm waiting for an apology from the thieving English myself, for their part in clearing the Highlands of Scotland; and then another from the Danes and Swedes for the depredations on my forebears in the Hebrides! I don't want compensation, just an acknowledgement they were (and still are) murderous, thieving, rapacious Imperialists etc, and we were here before them.:wink:)
Yes astrid I read.

[silentC]

What I want to know is whether there will be an equally official "statement of forgiveness"? I mean, what's the point of apology if someone isn't going to stand up and say "that's ok, we forgive you"? Who is going to do that?

Bet they don't.

[dazzler]

get over you, dazzler,
This apology is about the representitives of the non indiginous australian people saying sorry for the destruction of another culture, by deliberately breaking up the ties that held that culture together, its not about you, or your grandad.
If any one of you has read one book on this subject, not the herald or the australian, but has bothered to go to the library and read one book,
then you may be entitled to an opinion


Astrid

Hi Astrid,

Once again you feel the need to attack me on a personal level as my thoughts dont align with yours. So I am not entitled to an opinion because you think I dont go to the library?. Are you for real?. Or is it simply the case that you dont possess the skills to debate an issue on facts and instead aggressively attack people to make them back away.

This is about me, because MY Prime Minister is about to apologise on MY behalf. Something I believe he has no right to do. If I need to apologise for something then I will apologise.

Clear your mind for a moment, have no perceptions of who or what you think I am, and I will give you my reasons for being against this. Its a bit long, but I have taken the time to read what you have written so please recipricate.

Mind clear?
Ready?
Here goes;

Governments in Australia try to do the right thing at the time they do it. Australians in general are decent people. I totally accept and am saddened by the terrible things that happened to indigenous people. This is to say that when I read or hear about them I feel sad. I dont personalise the feeling because I didnt do it, no more than I would for the people of Iraq, who are suffering a terrible fate. I am saddened by thier fate, but feel no guilt for the occurance.

I reject the idea that previous governments set out to destroy aboriginal culture. I believe that previous governments, like our previous one, genuinely wanted to help aboriginal people, and did thier best using methodoligies of the day. I base this on the belief that we have shown through the ages that we are decent bunch, by the values of the time.

In relation to the removal of half caste children I believe it was done without malice, but in an attempt to keep the aborignal population undiluted (that doesnt sound nice but I cant think of a better word) by removing them. My understanding is that many half caste children were not treated well by the communities and it was considered better to bring them up as "white kids". To give them a "chance" so to speak of having a "better" life. I believe this was done with the best interests of the children and with the wisdom of the time. The govt wasnt to know that there were sick &^&&'s within the church and foster homes that would target children put in thier care and damage them, in many cases irrepairably. The police and other welfare people in my opinion didnt know either the fate that would beset many children, of all colours, once they went into care.

I dont believe that any Australian Govt ever set out with the intention of committing genocide or destroying Aboriginal People. However, the govts through our history have been stuck with one problem. Either put a fence between Indigenous and Non Indigenous people to keep thier culture intact, or try and integrate. And this is the problem. Its a one foot in and one foot out approach that leaves them in nowhere land.

I also believe that any child who is/was neglected should be removed from the parents. Kids get one crack at life and parents who cant perform the role forfeit the right. As a cop I saw this at least once ever two or three days and it colour/race/religion is no barrier. And yes it made me very sad.

Why no apology on MY behalf?

I HATE victimhood. I mean I really HATE it. It serves no purpose other than to allow people to wallow in self pity. My own personal experience of victimhood is like this;

My mother, as I said earlier, was taken from her unfit mother. (Her mothers side are Tasmanian Aboriginal from the 1830's New Norfolk). Mum was molested while in care. She dealt with it through strength. She is proud that she survived it and never personalised it and does not identify as a victim. My dad was in the Navy and suffered PTSD. He fell in with the Vietnam Veterans because he was in mission at sea during Vietnam. He now identifys as a vet. He goes to vet counselling and is now a victim, to his detriment. He identifies as a victim and he gets more mentally unwell each year.

So for someone to apologise for something that I, nor my children, had anything to do with is inappropriate. It will also achieve nothing. It might make a few people feel better for a short time, but in the end it will do more damage than good.

What I do support is full and just compensation for these people who have had crimes committed against them. I support free medical and psychological help for them. I support assisted living and accommodation for them. ALL a hell of a lot more than Mr RUDD is about to do, seeing as compensation is not part of His Sorry agenda.

regards

Dazzler

[Waldo]

Fully agree with Journeyman Mick's comments, those of Bittingmidge's and Dazzler. And those of Noel Pearson who I have a great respect for because he's putting aside all the carp and getting on with trying to make lives better for those that he has been elected into his office to do - which is more than can be said for 07Rudd and his self-serving interests.

Yes I've been through Purfleet - fast. I've dodged bricks and others stuff thrown at cars going through the round about at Purfleet. (just letting you know that i know where it is - so you don't think I'm a city bloke who knows nothing okay, I could go on with more about people I knew etc. but there's no point).

While the "fence" remains and until boxes need not be ticked anymore, there will be lines waiting for their what is "theirs" because that is what they have grown up to know.

We are all Australian under the same sky.

[Big Shed]

This thread sucks.
and i'll say no more to all you pathetic sods regarding your trivial little whinges
I am disgusted

Astrid

Wow, just read this thread.

Me thinks, you didn't keep your promise Astrid:rolleyes:

(BTW someone asked for your qualifications in this area, unles I missed your reply, I don't think you answered that question)

[pharmaboy2]

Most Australians are city based. They get their 'learnin' from books.

For these, 'Sorry' it is an emotional thing, an easy way to get out of having to really do anything of consequence.

Most city folks who agree with 'the sorry' dont know any aborigionals, have never met any aboriginals, have hardly seen them, have never been to the outback or even Purfleet, wouldn't have any knowledge of their problems or any solutions either: saying sorry makes them feel good.

It achieves little else.



Greg

This thread is a microcosm of Australia, and this quote sums it up not to badly. there are some great stories and posts here, and strangely the poster who is most emotional about others peoples views is judgemental about those views rather than empathetic towards others experience.

Here's a tough one for many to handle, but I used to visit Taree a week at a time every 2nd month for a number of years - because of my upbringing - academic socialist parent in the city, I was gobsmacked at how racist the locals were - and openly so within their own confines - no embarrassment at all.

After a few years, and also understanding why purfleet is the way it is, i didnt share their views but i did come to the realisation that had I been brought up with their experiences in their town I would very likely be just like them with their racism - there for the grace of God go I.

If there is anything to be sorry about vis a vis the aboriginals (and their many nations), it is the relocation and provision of housing estates etc that has done most to ensure a poor future, and ensure a divide - but at the same time it kept the "problem" out of the eyes of the city dwellers that made the policy - a problem unseen is not my problem......

Oh, and Noel Pearson for PM!

[Toyboy]

Let's face it, this whole business is becoming an 'industry'. My family is littered with Australian Aboriginal, Chinese, English, Scots and Irish and
all our forebears have conducted acts that we today, and God only knows why, think should be compensated for. What's that saying? "The 'sins' of the father etc.?" What sins? Holy dooley, sounds like a never-ending feud.
Let's acknowledge that things MIGHT have been done differently, but only with the benefit of hindsight, of course.
Mia culpa? I don't think so.

An idea has just come to me while typing this.
Let's not do that stuff any more and treat each other with mutual respect.

OK. That won't work. I'll think of something else and get back to you.

[Sebastiaan56]

Let's not do that stuff any more and treat each other with mutual respect.

Isnt that the basis of the religions of the world?

South Africa and East Timor have had success with truth and reconciliation commissions. There are a lot of very painful stories on both sides and in the telling people can move on. This should be part of the process. The aboriginal people also need to forgive. We should drop our expectation that they will like/ want to adopt our culture.

I am also an immigrant so am not strictly personally culpable but if it helps the aboriginal nations move on it should be done. I am after all the recipient of the history of all of my ancestors and the country I choose to live in. The only approriate body left to apologise is the government as the individuals reponsible are mostly gone.

Sebastiaan

[silentC]

Isnt that the basis of the religions of the world?
I wouldn't have thought so. Based on appearances, I thought it was more to do with arguing to the death over whose invisible friend is better.

The other observation I would make is that people seem to be extending the idea of apology to the entire Aboriginal situation. I thought this was an issue involving a select number of individuals, not the whole race. We are supposedly apologising for what a past government did to a subset of the indigenous population (individuals who would not have existed if the Europeans had not come), not for coming here in the first place.

So how is an apology going to improve the lot of indigenous Australians in general, when the large majority of them are not affected by it?

[Waldo]

So how is an apology going to improve the lot of indigenous Australians in general, when the large majority of them are not affected by it?

:iagree:

[Sebastiaan56]

I dont think any apology will materially improve anyone's lot. What it may do is relieve some of the anger. But in the end the offended still have to forgive.

A bit like the Jews after WW2, or the Japanese comfort women, survivors of families necklaced by the ANC, families who lost the lot in East Timor. Some manage to move on, some dont. The received offense doesnt define a person but their individual response does. The Dalai Lama doesnt seem to carry a lot of anger and resentment to the Chinese, he seems to be able to move on. Ive met one elder who moved on and a lot of younger aboriginal people who havent.

The apology is for the Stolen Generation but any apology will recognise that there was communal hurt, I think that is the point,

[HappyHammer]

so, burnsy, have you read one book.

Astrid

Johnc I agree in ageneral sense, but sorry has to be said,
Come on Astrid you're obviously bursting to tell us.......how many books have you read ?:roll:


Oh hello, (not you midge, i'll get to you later)
what the nazi's did to the gypsies, homosexuals and Jews, was within the law at the time,
when it happens in living memory, are you too small to appologise, or in this case let your government apologise on your ancestors behalf.
Shame on you

Astrid
I think the Nazis read books I think Hitler even wrote one.:roll:

HH.

[wayfarer]

So how is an apology going to improve the lot of indigenous Australians in general, when the large majority of them are not affected by it?

I think you'd have to be on the other side of the fence to understand why.
It might not be important to non-indigenous people, but that's not the point, is it? It seems important to most indigenous people whether they were directly affected by TSG or not.

[Gingermick]

This is only one step in the reconciliation process. Another thing needed is to give the kids in remote areas some hope for the future. Some hope that they can turn out to be nothing like their uncle who raped them or .,.,/.,././ .,m/ I cant write any more than that.
They need something to do and something to aspire to,
Noel Pearson for PM is a bad idea as he would need a party machine to get him there and a party line to tow.

And I didn't bloody well do any of it, but I'm sorry that it happened.

[silentC]

I think you'd have to be on the other side of the fence to understand why.Obviously there's some mystical secret business here that common whiteys like myself can never understand, so we'll just wait and see how they come along in leaps and bounds after Wednesday shall we?

I think it's hilarious, all this philosophical waffling people go on about with the healing process and whatever, as if words are going to ever make a difference to anything. You've got a group of people who feel that they have had something taken away and no amount of politically correct BS is ever going to change their minds. Where did I read it? "With an apology normally comes reparation. Without compensation, 'sorry' is meaningless".

It's all just posturing. Just as meaningless as any election promise. Anybody who can't see that and actually believes their life or anyone else's will change as a result is fooling themselves and playing right into Rudd's hands.

[HappyHammer]

It might not be important to non-indigenous people, but that's not the point, is it?
I think this thread suggests it is because they don't feel part of, or want to be part of, the apology made by the government.

HH.

[Gingermick]

I wonder if anyone here has ever watched a sporting event and then proceeded to mention to someone that 'we' won when, in fact, they had nothing to do with the win.

[silentC]

Sporting teams are usually popular, governments are generally not :)

Nup sorry, there's no way I take ownership of something that was done before I was born and neither do I believe anybody alive at the time should either, unless they had a controlling influence or were a perpetrator. Maybe they should have a version of the Nuremburg trials and hunt them all down or something. That would be more meaningful than a blanket "sorry".

[MICKYG]

Perhaps the term Stolen Generation may have been coined over a bottle of metho in a park somewhere, perhaps it should be Rescued Generation. It is common knowledge that both white and black fit into the category but it has been and obvious fact not very many white people have been vocal about their possible misfortune. I never heard the term during the seventies or eighties regarding stolen generations.

Regards Mike

[Gingermick]

How does expressing sorrow for something give you ownership or culpability? :?

[silentC]

Well, we've been here before. Same answer as last time: depends on your definition of apology doesn't it? If you aren't responsible for something, how can you apologise for it? If you apologise for it, doesn't that suggest you're admitting culpability?

Expressing sorrow? Well that's a different matter. I don't think Rudd is planning to simply express sorrow though. John Howard did that already but it wasn't considered good enough. By apologising on my behalf, which is what I gather he's planning to do, he's making me a part of something that has nothing to do with me. If someone walks up to me on Thursday and says "thanks for the apology, mate" I'll say, "don't thank me, it was Kevin Rudd's apology, not mine".

Let's see what he's actually going to say, I suppose. But don't expect it to change anything. That's all I'm saying.

[Gingermick]

I dont expect it to change anything (nor do I think anyone would go up and thank you for it :) ) but something has to change and this is as good a place as any to start.

[dazzler]

From Reconcile.org.au;

In 1999, the Australian Government moved a motion for reconciliation with an expression of:
“deep and sincere regret that indigenous Australians suffered injustices under the practices of past generations, and for the hurt and trauma that many indigenous people continue to feel as a consequence of those practices".

Nuff said, get over it :)

[Gingermick]

That was the 99 australian government. They were a bunch of wonkers

And I feel similarly about persecuted jews from WW2. They got a free country out of it and are still whinging (the get over it bit)

[Fuzzie]

I like nice simple easy elegant solutions to things.

I grew up in Melbourne in the 50's and 60's and I knew that an /integration/ policy of some sort existed, even if I wasnt clear about the details. Why do so many people say they never knew what was happening? Hell, there was a referendum to give Aboriginies full rights as Australian citizens that was voted yes in a landslide during the same era. It seemed sensible to me then - help to bring a section of the community into the 20th century where they actually had to live. It appeared to me even in the 70's to be a truly caring approach compared to what the South Africans were doing with apartheid.

I also remember that at my school there were a couple of aboriginal kids in the boarding school, good footballers in the school team. I remember being horrified when I watched an inter-school game where the aboriginal kids were clearly targeted by the opposing side and realized for perhaps the first time that racism and intolerance were irrational and not just /normal/ bullying.

Then I remember in 1979 getting into an argument with a French/Canadian/First nation person about cultural issues and saying Australia was doing a good thing by trying to integrate aborigines and that integration was a 2 way street. We (white fellas) should also be assimilating some useful part of the aboriginal culture so we would all become some sort of homogenized Australian people. I'm not sure that didn't happen to me by just being born here. I don't know a lot of the dreamtime stories but I know I have a spiritual connection to the land. I have traveled extensively overseas and Í know there is some innate thing about the Australian bush that happens to me when I'm in it that doesn't happen elsewhere.

There are many different views being expressed here from what appears to be mostly one side of the fence, be they either yeah or nay. It's my guess there are just as many divergent views on the other side, some of which wont see any value in a sorry statement either.

Reality is that we all now live in the 21st century and by virtue of science, technology and population growth the world is getting smaller. It would be a nicer place if we could actually work out how to get along together.

However the homosapien animal has proved throughout its history and current affairs that as a species we tend to prefer to resolve things through conflict and conquering.

I'm sorry that I'm naive and like to think things were done with good intentions. I'm sorry the plan was wrong and didn't work. I'm not sorry that somebody tried to fix things up a bit.

I'm sorry there's no simple easy elegant solutions to things.

[mic-d]

We apologise for giving you doctors and free medical care,which allows you to survive and multiply so that you can demand apologies.
We apologise for helping you to read and teaching you the english langauage and thus we opened up to you the entire European civilisation,thought and enterprise.
We feel that we must apolgise for building hundreds of homes for you ,which you have vandalised and destroyed.
We apologise for giving you law and order which has helped tp prevent you from slaughtering one another and using the unfortunate for food purposes.
We apologise for developing large farms and properties ,which today feed you people, where before, you had the benefits of living off the land and staving during droughts.
We apologise for providing you with warm clothing made of fabrics to replace animal skins you used before.

etc etc etc :((

This is a terribly paternalstic statement which highlights the skewed belief that the indigenous people were the poorer for not having these western trappings. Plainly their life and culture was richer before these things. The fact is though that things have moved on irrevocably from that point and I believe there won't be great change in aboriginal's situation until they can be forward looking rather than living in the past. I'm neutral on an apology, I don't know enough about aboriginal culture, but if the elders see this apology as a an important payment of respect and herald a new era, then I'm all for it, I hope so. But I have a rather pessimistic outlook.

Cheers
Michael

[ernknot]

As long as we have religion, non religion and politics plus different coloured people and cultures we will never get on. I wish we could.

[Burnsy]

The replies to this thread have I feel, demonstrated my point regarding this apology being the turning point for many non-aboriginal Australians who have sat by quietly and watched the train wreck that is happening in many aboriginal communities to stand up and say enough is enough, Kevin better actually have the balls to do something about the current situation and not just use it as political grandstanding.



We (white fellas) should also be assimilating some useful part of the aboriginal culture so we would all become some sort of homogenized Australian people.

:2tsup: I have seen a few white youths in the news lately that could do with a spear in the leg as a wake up call.

[Master Splinter]

Well, I came here on a boat in the late 60's, so its not my problem to worry about.

However it does make me wonder if I'm due an apology from the Norman French, assorted Germanic tribes, the Romans and I'm not sure who else tromped across the UK in the last few thousand years.

The French at least could apologise for spelling/pronunciation atrocities such as "knight" and "queen" that we are stuck with to this day.

I do think the 'victim' mindset is an issue; if saying sorry helps some indigenous people come to terms with the fact that that the world has changed, and Australia will never be like it was 100, 500 or 40,000 years ago and it is time to move on, then good.

[AlexS]

I don't know how much good saying sorry will do, but I do know that not saying it will stop things from getting better.
Also, just throwing money will not solve the problem, but the solution will require money. Not in the form of compensation, but on education, health and possibly some social engineering. But all the money in the world won't solve the problem without the input of intelligent people of good will, and the exclusion of those out to feather their own nests.

[silentC]

Again I feel the need to point out that this apology is aimed specifically at people affected by the child removal policies of the Australian government and not at indigenous Australians in general. The people Rudd wants to apologise to are the people of mixed race who were taken from their birth parents, and the birth parents themselves and perhaps the extended families. Perhaps there may be a general apology to the Aboriginal people that such a policy was implemented at all.

The apology was called for following the "Bringing them home" report, which focused specifically on the forced removal of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children from their parents.

This is what Rudd will be apologising for. He wont be apologising for European settlement, confiscation of land, murder, assault, rape, forced slave labour (although there is an aspect of that associated with the child removal policy), deprivation of rights in general etc etc. It does nothing to address land rights or alcoholism or paedophilia or domestic violence or health. The apology affects something like 100,000 people over a period of 100 years. That's only a fraction of the number of Aboriginal or part Aboriginal people who have lived in this country since white settlers first came here.

If this apology is all that's stopping them from moving on, taking some control of their lives and sorting themselves out, then I would say it makes them look more than a little bit silly. Is that really all they have been waiting for? Come on...

[Big Shed]

Silent, whilst I think you may be right in your assumption as to what the apology will cover, no one person outside Rudd's immediate circle has seen the actual wording. There fore you, and I and a few million other Australians, can only "assume".

[Rossluck]

I've been keeping out of this thread because I wanted to see where it went. The net result is that Astrid has risen in my estimation quite dramatically. I'm with you, Astrid, and I like the way you stood up to the red-necks (a hobby of mine, by the way :wink:)

In the early part of this century in WHITE AUSTRALIA it was expected that the Aboriginal population would die off because of the natural processes of evolution (i.e., that the superiour race would prevail over the weaker, see Hitler and WWII). This meant policies of segregation where the indigenous people were herded into settlements (like the American indigenous people and the "Indian reservations") where this process could take place. We all accept these days that this process was given some assistance with bullets and poison.

In the 20s, 30s and 40s the indigenous population actually increased, mainly through a rising population of the so called "half castes". A range of policies were introduced to "solve this problem". At the same time the scientific community here suggested that, as Aboriginal people were a specific type, "Australoids", that were "pre-caucasion" rather than "negroid", there was little chance that there would be "black throwbacks" after inter-relationships between white people and the indigenous people.

Therefore, it was understood that in WHITE AUSTRALIA you could actually breed the black out of the indigenous population through continued inter-relationships with the larger white population. This meant new policies of continued segregation for the so-called "fullbloods" in the expectation that they would continue to die out, and policies of amalgamation for the "halfcastes" in order that they be absorbed into the white population.

This is why halfcaste children were taken from their parents, and we owe the indigenous population in this country an enormous apology for the horrendous and racist way we have treated them.

[Burnsy]

and I like the way you stood up to the red-necks (a hobby of mine, by the way :wink:)


There is no need for personal attacks and name calling based on the fact that someone has a different opinion to you. Thankfully we live in a democratic society and the fact that some people do not agree with what the government has chosen to do does not remove their right to put forward their point.

[Jack E]

I'm with you, Astrid, and I like the way you stood up to the red-necks (a hobby of mine, by the way :wink:)
Can you please provide a definition of the term "redneck"?
While your at it could you also provide the term given to those who are the opposite of redneck?
I am thinking it is along the lines of moralistic, do-gooder, opiniated, non contributor to society, whinger, one eyed, unable to accept others opinions, Kevin Rudd supporter. Or somewhere along those lines.

Cheers, Jack

[Gingermick]

Kevin Rudd supporter.

Must be a few of those, did you happen to see the election result?

[silentC]

Silent, whilst I think you may be right in your assumption as to what the apology will cover, no one person outside Rudd's immediate circle has seen the actual wording. There fore you, and I and a few million other Australians, can only "assume".
True. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see. We might all be surprised.

[MICKYG]

"

The net result is that Astrid has risen in my estimation quite dramatically. I'm with you, Astrid, and I like the way you stood up to the red-necks (a hobby of mine, by the way :wink:)"

Rossluck, it is offensive to call people rednecks because they post an opinion. It is equally offensive to suggest you should have read at least one book before offering an opinion as was proffered by Astrid .

It is my personal belief that no matter how much verbal diarrhoea flows in Canberra tomorrow, not a lot will change but it will probably help the 'industry" get a bit more momentum for further financial help.

I do have a problem being confronted with an aboriginal family beating their kids in shopping centres, this seems to be a common event these days and perhaps these poor little people should be taken from their parents, I certainly would not have a problem with that occuring despite the opinions being proffered here.

If reading books produces dialogue such as your post I will pass on that. It may be that I am possibly a redneck, or perhaps was not educated enough to understand some of the worldly problems but I am still offended by your comments.

Regards Mike

[dazzler]

The net result is that Astrid has risen in my estimation quite dramatically. I'm with you, Astrid, and I like the way you stood up to the red-necks (a hobby of mine, by the way :wink:).

1. Well seeing as Astrid "stood up" to me by insulting me then that would mean that you are talking about me and therefore consider me a redneck. She did a great job, come on, call people names, tell them to read a book and then leave.

Show me what I have said that is "rednecked"?

From the Oxford dictionary;

redneck


• noun N. Amer. informal, derogatory a working-class white person from the southern US, especially a politically conservative one.


Dont think daddy was from the south, maybe you have some other meaning.


2.

"Therefore, it was understood that in WHITE AUSTRALIA you could actually breed the black out of the indigenous population through continued inter-relationships with the larger white population. This meant new policies of continued segregation for the so-called "fullbloods" in the expectation that they would continue to die out, and policies of amalgamation for the "halfcastes" in order that they be absorbed into the white population. "

Was this a govt policy?

According to Reconcile.org.au;

"1. Who are the stolen generations?

The term ‘stolen generations’ refers to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Australians who were forcibly removed from their families and communities by government, welfare or church authorities as children and placed into institutional care or with non-Indigenous foster families. The forced removal of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children began as early as the mid 1800s and continued until 1970.

This removal occurred as the result of official laws and policies aimed at assimilating the Indigenous population into the wider community. "


The policy was assimilation, once again from the oxford;

"absorb and integrate into a people or culture."

Where is this breed it out of them policy?

3.

Obviously, the opposite policy would have been "segregation"

"the enforced separation of different racial groups in a country, community, or establishment."

So lets transport Rossluck back in time to the 1800's. Your now the governor and you have a two cultures. One is a very old culture and one is a very new culture. They are clashing with one another. Clashing over land, cattle and crops amongst other things.

They are beginning to interbreed with the offspring being rejected in many cases by both cultures.

Show us your policies Governer Rossluck. Dont forget though that you are back in the 1800's, some still think the world is flat, that ridges on your skull can determine intellect and across the world enslaving cultures is seen as a noble profession.

Whats the fix Guv:?

Oh, and keep in mind that you will be held accountable by a far more worldly and educated society long after your gone

[johnc]

If you are going to post an opinion I have no problem with quoting the reference it came from. However like Mick I don't think its useful to provide an unsupported opinion and then ask others to read a book to find the basis for that view, which by its nature is insulting. By all means state a view back it up with the reason, and accept that others will have different views. I'm sure most of us have read many articles and publications on the subject over the years, some have closer contact of varying forms, and this is not a black and white (no pun implied) issue it is very much shades of gray, and although I fully support an apology I can equally see the reasons why others don't even if I don't agree with them.

[ptc]

Just don't apologise on my part, I didn't do anything, okay?

[pharmaboy2]

If you are going to post an opinion I have no problem with quoting the reference it came from. However like Mick I don't think its useful to provide an unsupported opinion and then ask others to read a book to find the basis for that view, which by its nature is insulting. By all means state a view back it up with the reason, and accept that others will have different views. I'm sure most of us have read many articles and publications on the subject over the years, some have closer contact of varying forms, and this is not a black and white (no pun implied) issue it is very much shades of gray, and although I fully support an apology I can equally see the reasons why others don't even if I don't agree with them.

well said John.

no matter what side of the fence you sit on, those that insult the other side show a lack of tolerance of other views. surely posting on this subject without tolerance is the greatest of ironies?

anyone is entitled to an opinion, and entitled not to be insulted for voicing that opinion.

personally i cant help but look at the "progress" of the last 25 yrs, and see that things have got worse not better, and wonder whether our direction is entirely wrong. In many ways the intellectualised guilt has lead to much of the special treatment, atsic etc, and relatively has done nothing to improve the situation. I am concerned that today then following onto some form of official recognition and treaty in time will simply take the focus off efforts that will actually do something. Grandiose posturing is just that - seems to help some people in leadership positions, but will it actually help the people who need it?

[silentC]

I find myself in complete agreement with you. I just can't help thinking that if they really are sitting back waiting for an apology before moving on and actually doing something to help themselves (rather than expecting the government to do it for them) then they are cutting their noses off to spite their faces. I somehow doubt it.

I think this problem requires two things: support from the government and a willingness from the affected people to bring about change. Unfortunately, the latter just doesn't seem to be there, with the exception of a handful of individuals who actually do try, and the former seems to be squandered on things that don't help long term, or actually make things worse.

How much effort has been put into bringing about this apology? And it's not even a real tangible thing, like land rights, or fishing rights. Such a waste of resources for an end result that is going to give a few people warm and fuzzies and not much else.

Dazzler, in reply to your problem, if I was that Governor, I wouldn't know what to do either. Short of packing everyone up and shipping them back to England, I don't know what else would have worked.

[Brown Dog]

Im just courious...why people get so worked up about this so called apology. Is it really going to effect anyone that the "apology" is'nt directed at.

I mean for the average non aboriginal Australian is this apology going to make one little bit of difference to their life ?.

I understand some are concerned about the possible legal ramifications due to compensation....but as far as i understand anyone with a genuine claim already has the right under the law to make a case for compensation

cheers
BD:)

[silentC]

Here are just a few views that different people have expressed, in no particular order:

1. I don't want the government to apologise on my behalf because I have nothing to apologise for.

2. Making an apology gives the affected people an excuse for making themselves 'victims' - it removes the burden of doing something to help themselves because they now have someone to blame. Many of their problems are not the result of the child removal policy.

3. Making an apology opens the way for stronger calls for some sort of compensation.

4. Taking the children away in many cases was the best thing for them. There were obviously many cases where it was not, but on the whole the government at the time thought it was doing the right thing.

5. The government should not apologise for something that it has every intention of doing again - taking kids away from their birth parents if they see a need for it.

6. An apology is not going to change anything, it's just grandstanding by Kevin Rudd.

There you go, there are a handful of reasons why people object to it.

I'm actually undecided now. On the one hand, it's not going to impact my life and if it makes people feel better, it's like religion - pointless but some people seem to need it so what harm will it do? On the other, people like Michael Mansell make me want to dig my heels in.

[HappyHammer]

As long as we have religion, non religion and politics plus different coloured people and cultures we will never get on. I wish we could.
What have none believers ever done, extremely little compared to the religious and political elements.

HH.

[HappyHammer]

Well, I came here on a boat in the late 60's, so its not my problem to worry about.

While you like many people born here or not were not party to causing the problem we should all be prepared to contribute to the solution however unlikely that may be. If not then you should have your voting privileges removed.:U

HH.

[woodbe]

This thread shows is that there is still strong division over indigenous Australians in our society. We're also no closer to agreement, but that should come as no surprise, we woodworkers can't even agree to save native forests that were here when Captain Cook showed up, why should the native inhabitants get a break?

I also don't know a lot about Aborigines, but I have had the privilege of spending time with some of them in their own space rather than 'our' space. These people have their own way of life, history and culture, and it is not our way of life, history or culture. We often judge these people and their culture based upon our own, which is a natural thing to do, but I'm not convinced it is the right thing to do.

Will an apology help? I'm hopeful, but I really don't know. We cannot put things back the way they were, but one thing for sure is that a decent apology should stop all this wasted time talking about it and maybe it will sew the seeds of goodwill and we will see progress.

woodbe.

[bitingmidge]

100,000 people to apologise to, that's 0.5% of the population of Australia. If it was fair dinkum, they'd bus them down to Canberra and apologise in person. More people than that turn up in Canberra for the SummerNats.

How will disposessed indigenies receive the message if they don't have tele?

Mel and Koshie are going to broadcast live from Canberra, it must be really important.

P
:rolleyes:

[Brown Dog]

Will an apology help? I'm hopeful, but I really don't know


well put woodbe

SC

I understand all the views you have put forward on the behalf of others and why people object... what i dont understand is the passion behind the objections

I can empathise with the passion for the desire of an apology but i cant understand the objection...when as far as i can see, there will be no direct negative effect on anyone not directly involved.



I'm actually undecided now. On the one hand, it's not going to impact my life and if it makes people feel better, it's like religion - pointless but some people seem to need it so what harm will it do? On the other, people like Michael Mansell make me want to dig my heels in.


I agree....but what does digging your heel in actually do for you ?
cheers
BD:)

[pharmaboy2]

Will an apology help? I'm hopeful, but I really don't know. We cannot put things back the way they were, but one thing for sure is that a decent apology should stop all this wasted time talking about it and maybe it will sew the seeds of goodwill and we will see progress.

woodbe.

sounds like you have submitted rather than come around? Weary of the constant political game, the point scoring, the concentration on one issue that certainly isnt the most important one - after all you cant eat or live under an apology.

Just listening to the libs this past week, I sense a battle worn weariness, of just go with the flow - chances are nothing at all will change, and maybe something of substance will replace it.

"hope" is the right word - hoping is about the best its going to get - but just hope that the sydney city socialists dont suddenly think they've done their bit, released their guilt and move on to something more important in their eyes - apologies for the cynical view......

[Groggy]

An apology relies on an assumption that something "wrong" occurred. An apology by itself will not right a "wrong", so, what are the things that really need to be fixed? Have they been identified? Can they be fixed?

What happens AFTER the apology? Is that IT? Say sorry and walk away? If it were that simple I reckon it would have been done a while ago.

Some groups have said there must be compensation, some say no. I find myself asking what needs to be fixed, how, and for who? The entire aboriginal community or just the 'stolen' ones? Are the families included? What is family? Brothers and sisters or extended relatives too?

I can't see enough information to make an informed opinion.