More Sorry Suggestions

[HappyHammer]

K07 now has to solve real problems like...

Ensuring the safety of Indigenous children
Ensuring education for aboriginal children
Providing law and order in aboriginal communities
Deciding what to do about intervention
Ensuring Aboriginies have a means of maintaining thier culture
Bringing all Australians together to help solve these issues
Address the perception / reality that aboriginies get too many unjustifiable handouts
......Then there is the list for the Aboriginies themselves.

Ensuring the safety of Indigenous children
Ensuring education for aboriginal children
Providing law and order in aboriginal communities
Deciding what to do about intervention
Ensuring Aboriginies have a means of maintaining thier culture
Bringing all Australians together to help solve these issues
Address the perception / reality that aboriginies get too many unjustifiable handouts
...HH.

[DrDread]

Astrid, There was no plan for genocide by any Australian Government that is a blatant lie.

In fact every name put forward as a "stolen" person so far have been shown to be "saved" rather than stolen. Very very few and yet to be proven as taken or stolen purley of racial grounds. Half catse children back then were abused and abandoned, without intervention many or most would have died.

Rudd is saying sorry to all children taken without any consideration for those that indeed had to be taken for there own safety.

I guess its ok to leave a child to suffer sexual abuse that at age 10 is riddled with syphlis. If it is so wrong to take a child into care regardles black or white why are they still doing it this very day! And why is Rudd saying sory for doing what was and still is the right thing to do.

Saying sorry should be defined as those few who were taken purley on racist grounds. What he is doing here is undermining the welfare of kids that are being rapped and abused in the most horiffic circumstances that would never be tollerated in a normal community.

I don't have a problem him saying sorry to those genuinly taken for racist reasons. What he is about to do is wrong wrong wrong. My heart bleeds for the poor kids left in circumstances you could not imagine because it is seen as wrong to help them as defined by Rudd's blanket appology.

This will have the very opposite effect than what it is intended.

It will go down in history as the worst speach ever given in paliament purley because it does not recoginse or the good from the evil.

BTW books don't always tell the truth either! You would be one hell of a mixed up puppy if you believed everything you read.

Did my first post yesterday then had a look around...and found this^.

Jeez mate, I would have thought that in the twenty first century, as a nation we are mature and gracious enough to acknowledge the brutality and subjugation of a 50,000 year old culture by way of a simple apology.

In the early part of the 19th century there was a deliberate and unrelenting agenda by Colonial agencies to de-populate southern Australia of Koori peoples to smooth the way for white settlement. This policy continued late into the 1800's and early 20th century. Maybe not genocide but certainly a concerted effort to dismantle an entire culture.


In fact every name put forward as a "stolen" person so far have been shown to be "saved" rather than stolen.

"Saved"? Says who? Some ideological throwback from 19th century squatocracy? Nicking these kids was still going on less than a generation ago. Many of these people are still alive today and by their own accounts were certainly not saved.


Very very few and yet to be proven as taken or stolen purley of racial grounds. Half catse children back then were abused and abandoned, without intervention many or most would have died.

Sweeping denialism to say the least, bordering on total nonsense. From just 1930 to the mid fifties, Bureau of statistics documents (available for anybody to study) clearly and unapologetically clinically describe the systematic removal of over 15,000 children from families purely on the basis of skin colour. Some were victims of abuse, others not but abuse on its own was never the over-riding consideration in a child's removal.

You conveniently ignore the fact that half-castes were born from the very racism, disposession and brutality that you seek to deny.

For gods sake we did not even have the decency to formerly recognise these people as human beings until the 1960's but here we are, in 2008 still indulging ourselves in the mean, blackhearted denialism of ulta-conservatism.

...And Rudds speech the "Worst ever"? You hadn't even heard it yesterday. I did today and also Nelson's reply if you could call it that. This so-called reply was nothing more than a weak sop to the black-hearted Tories who gave him the job. Mean spirited and without intellect.

Don't believe everything you read you say. In the case of your post I could not agree more.

[silentC]

Conspiracy theories and denialism aside, there might be some debate over why the children were taken, but none over the way the were taken, which is probably just as important, if not more so. There are plenty of accounts of that and you would be a hard person to not be moved by them. No doubt it was a terrible situation to be involved in, there can be no question about it.

I just watched Mike Dodson's brother Patrick speaking on Meet the Press. What an impressive chap he is, there should be more like him. Very practical and forward looking. A couple of points he made:

1. Talking about compensation: he feels there should be compensation as a part of reparation but compensation might consist of something different to what most people think. He didn't expand on that, but I take it to mean maybe actions to follow the words but not necessarily money. I like that kind of talk, it shows a recognition that money wont solve the problems.

2. A lot of the misunderstanding and/or fear felt by white people is because they don't know anything about the Aboriginal people. We are afraid of being exposed for the ignorant people we are. His suggestion was that this can be addressed by education and you need Aboriginal people to become the educators. I like that too: you fellas think us black fellas need educating - it's you who need the education and we're gonna give it to you.

3. People turning their back on Nelson: if people want to look to the past, that's understandable - the hurt doesn't go away that easily - but we need to move beyond that now and look to the future.

Remains to be seen if that sort of sentiment is converted into actions.

I still think Rudd has the wrong idea if he's going to try and force 4yo kids to go to pre school and 'get a good start'. That's getting a good start in the white man's world, and isn't that what they're struggling against?

[Blarney]

http://www.sydneyline.com/National%20Museum%20Frontier%20Conflict.htm

I think there is some fibs on both sides.

[silentC]

Get some background on the History Wars here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_Wars

[pharmaboy2]

http://www.sydneyline.com/National%20Museum%20Frontier%20Conflict.htm

I think there is some fibs on both sides.

i'm sure this one has been referenced before, but Noel Pearson's article from Tuesday is an interesting read and roundup of the politics of this topic..

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23196221-28737,00.html

[dazzler]

Jeez mate, I would have thought that in the twenty first century, as a nation we are mature and gracious enough to acknowledge the brutality and subjugation of a 50,000 year old culture by way of a simple apology.

.


Welcome aboard Dr,

Keep it to what we are discussing.....the apology for the "stolen generations", not colonialism or the terrible things that happened when the English arrived.

have fun now :)

[Waldo]

.

[Zed]

I didnt read all teh preceding pages as I dint have time and this is too much a serious subject for whatever reasons who ever hold. My take is this;

1) things are done for many reasons, good and bad. the taking of half caste kids was done PRIMARILY (I understand) so as to help those kids.
2) I reckon (subjecture only) that most of those kids had more oppotunities than thier peers who didnt get taken.
3) throughout history people have been abducted, not just oz aboriginals. no one said sorry to them. think of the african slaves in the america's
4) why should a present day govt admit liability for something that happened well before our times ? lets face it that is the next step in the sorry process... "you've admitted it.. now pay for it"
5) what mick said in an early post here is very pertinant wrt the "victim" mentality.... get on with it... how many breaks do you need to get over perceived ancestral injustices ?
6) I think the aboriginal community needs to adjust to the 21st century - everybody is busy running thier own lives rather than worry about other peoples problems.

its a sad situation, Im sorry it happened, I wish it didnt, I also wish WW1 & 2 didnt happen otherwise I might still be with my extended family back in europe. But I dont want an apology from any of the euro nations... I just get on with my life. Surely you can too...

[Waldo]

:aro-u: :2tsup:

[Ironwood]

3) throughout history people have been abducted, not just oz aboriginals. no one said sorry to them. think of the african slaves in the america's


They even did it to themselves.

When I worked up on the western side of Cape York, I was told by a couple of the Elders from the area, that years ago tribes from further north used to conduct raiding parties, where they would come down and abduct (stole?) women and young girls and take them back to their own area.

Rest assured the motive for this was more sinister than removing children for their own good.

At the time they seemed to have "gotten over" the fact it used to happen, I dont recall them expecting an apoligy from the Northern people.

[MICKYG]

One can be forgiven for wondering if this problem as aired of late: ie sexual abuse, drugs, alcohol, and other atrocities against the young children within the aboriginal communities adds new definition to the term grow your own. You would wonder why such a contingent of people turned up to protest against the intervention of Goverment into the Northern Territory. It sure seems that they are unable to sort out the problem themselves.

There are literally many hundreds of these communities through out Australia and if similiar events were taking place in ten percent of them it constitutes a large problem for the KR07 contingent of "we are gunna fix it's".

Well its done. The "Sorry" we were all having opinions about yesterday has been delivered, and methinks there will not be any thing worth writing about occuring during the next year. It remains to seen who was close to factual truth with regard the total of all these things which were given oodles of lipservice today.

I will hazard a guess that it will be less than six months and you will be reading about the area of compensation claim being brought about by free lawers that this particular society has at their disposal.

Regards Mike

[Gingermick]

Hey, they're our brothers.

[dazzler]

They even did it to themselves.

When I worked up on the western side of Cape York, I was told by a couple of the Elders from the area, that years ago tribes from further north used to conduct raiding parties, where they would come down and abduct (stole?) women and young girls and take them back to their own area.

.

Im not being smart here but I thought this was commonish amongst many tribes throughout the world to ensure gene pool diversity.

[Zed]

Im not being smart here but I thought this was commonish amongst many tribes throughout the world to ensure gene pool diversity.

yeah thats what the sociologists call it.. the tribes call it either "stealing the hotties next door" or "revenge for stealing my sister"

[Ironwood]

Im not being smart here but I thought this was commonish amongst many tribes throughout the world to ensure gene pool diversity.

Yes, well no dought it helped to alleviate inbreeding.

Though I wonder if that was their intension at the time, probably a mix of reasons perhaps.

[Burnsy]

Couple of points of interest (facts not my points):

In Perth they did not just turn their back on Nelson but turned of the audio so no-one could here it.

A poll of 13000 people by nine news today showed only 10% supported the appology.

Spoke to all the kids in my class about the apology today then watched it and some interviews of stolen aboriginals on the net. Interestingly, of the seven aboriginal kids in my class, only one of them knew about the apology or said it had been talked about at home, I was actually surprised that they were at school today as I expected them to be with their families.

[rod@plasterbrok]

Well thats done.

Now what?

How badly treated does an aboriginal child need to be tomorrow before being taken to a safe haven?

Will anyone have the courage to step in to protect a young life? Or maybe sorry day will prevent children in aboriginal communities being raped tomorrow?

Interesting that a child, just yesterday was taken from the camp on Paliament grounds in exactly the manner Rudd made his appology for today.

What I cant comprehend is the lack of acknowlegement of the need for child protection to continue regardless of race, he just apologized for every child removed regardless of reason.

My only concern is for the welfare of children past and present. I am very corncerned that with this apology we hurt children rather than make things better for them.

No one wants to hear about the atrocities occuring every week in aboriginal settlements as was evidenced today.

For all the do gooders out there shedding tears of happiness in their latte over todays apology, shed a few for the suffering kids of today and tomorrow.

[Ray153]

I watched both Rudd and Nelson give their speeches on television this morning.

My first impression was that Rudd spoke more along the lines of sorry, and this is what I want my government to achieve and this is how I think we can get started.

Nelson I felt was more mired in the past and spent too much of his opportunity in spouting statistics or figures without really coming up with any sort of a roadmap of possible goals or solutions. One of the advantages I suppose of opposition, he has no obligation to come up with ideas or solutions.

I am not surprised that many koori people at various venues turned their backs or more on Nelson. Perhaps it is their way of illustrating a belief that the speaker has no credibility in their eyes when it comes to aboriginal affairs and that they would rather he just didn't say anything? I think that no matter who the leader of the opposition might be, they were always going to suffer a credibility problem given the continued and insistent refusal of Howard to do what Rudd just did.

I watched the speeches with several koori and others who work daily with those koori who come to the attention of the legal system and they all stated that Nelson had absolutely no credibility as he represented a body that had 11 years to take action and only recently found that there seemed to be a problem and put in place an interventionist programme. To them, the perception is that the NT intervention has been a critical imperative just because of the then fast approaching election.

One made the point that the policy that was the subject of todays events was itself originally described as an "interventionist programme". I won't be around to see it but in around 2108 it would be very interesting to see how history and society view the results of this point in time

[Gypsy]

We whites can justify anything without even trying. All we have to do now is point out how 'good' we were to rip children from the arms of loving parents and dump them into totally foreign white families, farms, work stations and how we did them sooooo much good. So there were some parents who were bad parents (whites never have these problems of course) because WE introduced them to alcahol, forced them to adopt our cultures (thats a laugh with all our problems) deny their own culture, language etc. We gave them nothing, forced everything on them. We did not arrive peacefully, we invaded and murdered, raped and stole. Today's white generation benefitted from all of this, Aboriginals still suffer. Imagine it was only in the 60s that we had a referendum to 'allow' Aboriginals become part of Australia. In the 60s! Their own country. The treatment when they returned from war! Not even allowed into pubs...and of course whites can go into pubs as when they get drunk they behave so much better!!! Whites do not beat up their wives in the streets, they go behind closed doors! I am saying sorry not for what I did but for what has been done in my name. I am truly sorry that this group of Australians were treated as second class citizens. And as for the amounts of money given, it was once said "If the govt stopped giving money to Aborigines, 10,000 whites would be on the dole line". In the 1930's New Zealand schools were teaching Maori history, culture etc. 2008 and we can say single words in Italian, Greek, Spanish etc. Not one word in any Aboriginal language I will bet. Most who would deny the Sorry would also deny any kind of respect/acknowledgement for their culture, history etc. Yet we willing give this to migrants. We know more about the cultures of migrants than we do about Aborigines. Oh yes. We can justify our actions by pointing fingers and showing how 'generous' we have been. What is the definition of 'mean spirited?'

[Wood Borer]

I agree with Kevin Rudd apologising to the Aboriginal people.

Our previous Prime Minister stated on numerous occasions that because the atrocities happened in the past that there is no need to say sorry.

Many terrible things have happened in the past including WW1, WW2, the murdering of Jews, the current slaughter of Palestinians .....

Some conservatives feel that we should be sorry and hold annual ceromonies for some of these horrible events but not for others.

I cannot differentiate between these atrocities and I feel that we should be sorry for the lot of them, not just the ones for whites or just for the atrocities committed against our allies. How can you shed a tear on Anzac day and at the same time say stuff the Aboriginal people?

Holding back on apologies for economic reasons (they might seek compensation) under the guise of it happened in the past is shallow thinking and not ethical.

Some of the greatest examples of how to live and how to treat the land has been demonstrated to me first hand by Aboriginal people.

I am not proud of the way the Aboriginal culture has been severely eroded, I am not proud of the state of health of Aboriginal people, nor am I proud of Aboriginal kids being taken away from their communites and brought up with European values.

My vocal support for the Aboriginal people in the past has had me labelled as an "Abbo Lover" by racists and conservatives possibly as an attempt to scare me into becoming a racist moron. It hasn't worked.

The usual response to my fondness of the Aboriginal people is that I haven't seen drunken and violent Aboriginal people. I have seen my fair share of drunken and violent people both European and Aboriginal. I have been robbed and assaulted by both.

Today was great day in the history of Australia.

For those who have a different view I feel sorry for you.

[Woodlee]

Why isn't someone setting up kangaroo meatworks and tanneries in the bush. And crocodile tanneries too. That is an earner. :oo:[/quote]

It is being done up here in the NT ,at least crocodile farms on remote communities .
Trouble is getting the workers to turn up for work on a regular basis ,its left to a few caucasians to do the work ,when they get disheartened they leave and the whole business falls in a heap .
There is and has been a few of successful outcomes , but the failures far outweigh the successes,and the financial costs are enormous.
I've seen it time and time again on many communities that I've worked at.
hundreds of thousands of dollars poured into community projects to get some sort of employment going ,to give a sense of worth and self determination ,only to be abandoned months later and the whole project turn into crumbling ruins.

I spent 12 1/2 years travelling around the Northern Territory carrying out maintenance on community power stations ,some time spending two or three weeks at time in one community.
I know what goes on in these places ,I've seen it first hand and don't have to read books or newspapers to find out.
I't won't matter how much money gets poured into these places ,the outcome will be the same .

Kev

[Wood Borer]

I agree with you Kev which suggests that pouring only money towards a solution hasn't worked in the past and probably won't work in the future.

If I lost all my pride and if I thought I had no future then I too would probably act in a negative way. If you gave me money I would probably spend it on alcohol - so what if I was constantly drunk, it would be preferable to facing the bleak hopeless future. This response is not unique to Aboriginal people.

Helping me regain my pride and then giving me money would most likely lead to a different outcome.

I don't think anybody has an immediate solution to the problem however the majority of people (including both white and Aboriginal people) feel that there is a terrible problem that must be fixed.

Recognising past mistakes and not repeating them might point to a solution.

[dazzler]

For those who have a different view I fell sorry for you.

Please dont feel sorry for me woodborer. I would rather you try to understand why it is that I have this viewpoint.

I accept your views totally. I have an analytical mind. Perhaps that makes me a lot less compassionate than others.

I like to deal with facts, not feelings, which is probably where it comes from.

What is interesting is that many who embrace the apology label anyone who doesnt in a negative light and even stoop to offensive language and as in the case yesterday turning thier backs on the speaker.

In a nutshell I am in favour of an apology and reparation where its appropriate, and as yet those who are owed an apology have not been correctly identified. The bringing them home report, whilst a sad, terrible, embarrassing inditement on the issue, is a flawed document. It is flawed because people had thier stories listened and recorded but then no investigation into why they were taken in the first place.

Yesterday was a classic example. Both leaders quoted sad stories of children being taken from thier mothers. Both heartrenching. However the basis for thier removal was not explained so its not in context. Sad absolutley, warranted due to welfare issues, god knows because we are not told. Nelsons story was of a young child living with her father in a tent on the outskirts of Tennant Creek. Was she going to school. What family support did she have? She may have been taken just because she of here race/colour or lack thereof, but we dont know. Mum was taken from her mother by welfare a number of times and it was justified. Her Mum was a drunken hag. Had a chat to mum last night and she said that she had been talking to her sisters last night.

Mum comes from a family of 15 kids. Six are from one father, two from another, six from another and one from the the first sixs fathers brother. There is aboriginal lineage in the first six and in the single one. My uncles and aunts are very mixed in colour, some obviously aboriginal, many not. Mums Grandmother was a European Gypsy so was dark as well. Mum said they were always running from welfare. They would see a new model car coming (they lived in very poor parts of town) and mum would tell them to run. Most times they would get away while welfare checked on them. Occassionally some of the kids would get taken into care for a period. Mum went to at least 30 different primary schools and never got to go to high school as she was kept at home to care for the young children. This left her vulnerable to advances from drunken men that would be there when her mum was 'entertaining'. Not a very healthy environment for a young girl and she was sexually assaulted at least once and when she told her mother she was beaten for 'lying'.

Mum left when she was 16 by getting pregnant and luckily getting married. Mum said that she wishes to god that she had been taken by welfare. Two of her sisters agree. She was in foster care for a short period. Some of the younger ones were taken and fostered out. Overall they turned out pretty good. No rhodes scholars but generally have made a good go of life.

I have removed a lot of children from mothers and fathers, particularly in Tasmania from 2002 to 2007, and every one was a sad affair where we were pulling them out of parents arms, wrestling them away and locking them in the back of our cars. Most were genuine welfare cases but some didnt seem so. I also helped deport an afghani family from launceston and it made me feel sick at the time.

So dont feel sorry for me, just make a small attempt to understand why I think the way I do. :)

[MICKYG]

If you do a search ( 26/08/1999 John Howard ) it comes up with an interesting read. :B

I believe that Rod in post #218 has made a good comment and one which is very close to reality with regard the most precious of all, the children.

Regards Mike

[silentC]

Now hang on a minute. Did anyone watch the ABC news last night? What about the lady who ran a mission up there and looked after a heap of these kids? She reckons that not one of them ever wanted to be taken back. She doesn't know the circumstances under which they were brought to her, but she does know that those kids were happy and all got a good start in life. If they feel so much resentment towards her, why did they all have a reunion recently where they paid tribute to her? How come they don't wheel any of those kids out when they're talking about the stolen generations?

So do you reckon she deserves to be criticised for what she did? Why should she be expected to feel sorry when all she wanted was to give them a better life than the one they came from?

I think that just like anything in life there are two sides to every story. I think it's a bit much to suggest that people who want to listen to the less popular side and make up their own minds have a problem. After all, you have a bloke like Noel Pearson himself uncertain that an apology was a good idea and for some very good reasons, not just because he's a white apologist or is protecting his hip pocket.

[Kaiser Soze]

We whites can justify anything without even trying. All we have to do now is point out how 'good' we were to rip children from the arms of loving parents and dump them into totally foreign white families, farms, work stations and how we did them sooooo much good. So there were some parents who were bad parents (whites never have these problems of course) because WE introduced them to alcahol, forced them to adopt our cultures (thats a laugh with all our problems) deny their own culture, language etc. We gave them nothing, forced everything on them. We did not arrive peacefully, we invaded and murdered, raped and stole. Today's white generation benefitted from all of this, Aboriginals still suffer. Imagine it was only in the 60s that we had a referendum to 'allow' Aboriginals become part of Australia. In the 60s! Their own country. The treatment when they returned from war! Not even allowed into pubs...and of course whites can go into pubs as when they get drunk they behave so much better!!! Whites do not beat up their wives in the streets, they go behind closed doors! I am saying sorry not for what I did but for what has been done in my name. I am truly sorry that this group of Australians were treated as second class citizens. And as for the amounts of money given, it was once said "If the govt stopped giving money to Aborigines, 10,000 whites would be on the dole line". In the 1930's New Zealand schools were teaching Maori history, culture etc. 2008 and we can say single words in Italian, Greek, Spanish etc. Not one word in any Aboriginal language I will bet. Most who would deny the Sorry would also deny any kind of respect/acknowledgement for their culture, history etc. Yet we willing give this to migrants. We know more about the cultures of migrants than we do about Aborigines. Oh yes. We can justify our actions by pointing fingers and showing how 'generous' we have been. What is the definition of 'mean spirited?'

Turning our back on the vulnerable!


Have you read ANY of the last 200 odd posts

[Incoming!]

I live in a small remote community where at least 50% of the population is aboriginal. Very few are full bloods and to the best of local knowledge, none were ever stolen, although quite a few are of the stolen generation age.

Interestingly enough, none of the aboriginal community here think the apology is necessary, and most are quite embarrassed about the whole shebang. Strangely enough, although we have our fair share of crime, alcohol abuse, domestic violence etc. (mostly perpetrated by younger members of the community), if any of the aboriginal families here were in pain, and felt that an apology for past wrongs to their nation would help, I'd be first in line to give it. Simply because these people, here in this community, are worth it.

We work along side them, we grab their kids, dangle them upside down and tickle them - yell at the aforementioned kids when we catch them throwing rocks at passing trucks, roar at them to get to school instead of hanging out down near the river, and tut tut when one of the kids gets caught spraying graffiti or doing donuts on the school oval. For those who have been here for a long time, and have worked tirelessly out on one of the stations, brought up their kids (with varying levels of success) there is nothing but respect. We attend their funerals.

None of these people want an apology, but if they felt that it would help to heal old hurts, I'd be first in line. As I would want to help heal anyone who felt the pain of a past injustice.

I am sure that this is not an isolated event. I am pretty sure that similar (relatively) harmonious co-existence between white and aboriginal communities exists elsewhere in Australia. And if any of those aboriginals need an apology to move on, then I'm glad that the apology has been given.

But the future ...

The intervention must go on. We send multi-lateral peacekeeping forces to failed states to provide medical, economic aid, security, infrastructure development and welfare to those failed states. Why not to failed communities? Most of the adults in these communities may be beyond help. But if one child can be retrieved, can have a decent future, then ... send in the troops, the welfare people, the police, the economic aid people, the infrastructure development people. It may be a long process - look how much time we've spent in Cambodia, Timor Leste, Iraq and afghanistan. But if we can justify that money spent in support of a failed state, the rationale being that it contributes to our local security, then we have no reason not to go into failed aboriginal communities and support the future of immediate local security and young Australians.

[silentC]

But if one child can be retrieved, can have a decent future, then ...
I agree with that 100%. I've said it before, if they don't like it, stuff 'em. I don't care about the feelings of a community if it means saving a kid from the worst sort of abuse. There's too much tiptoing around as it is. And too many bad things are happening to kids that are the age of my two or younger. It's not fair.

But that's the problem with this apology business. What is it going to mean in terms of intervention? We've apologised for intervention in the past, so are we now going to ignore what's going on to honour the apology, or are we going to go right ahead and do it again?

Some communities have made it very clear they don't want the intervention - turning their backs on Nelson was part of that - so what does that mean for kids caught in bad situations?

[Incoming!]

If our politicians can't spin "intervention" into "compensation" then I'll hand in my membership to the Macchiavelli society. It needs workshopping, consultation, a few highly priced consultants and good media support, but I think it can be done.

And damn the communities who don't want intervention. There should be no such thing as a "no go" area for Australian police. Not where crimes against children are rampant. If we have to apologise again in fifty years time, then so be it.

We don't have to remove the children from their community anyway. It'd be better to set up residential care facilities with committed, trained and non-partisan aboriginal carers in place, with the full support of our welfare and law enforcement and medical authorities.

That, my friends, is where any compensation monies should be allocated. To the future, not to the damaged past.

[Wood Borer]

I appreciate your candid reply Dazzler. Like many issues there are not just two simple sides where the goodies wear a white hat and the baddies wear a black hat.

I doubt if anyone would resist removing kids from an environment where the kids are threatened, not being clothed or fed appropriately etc.

I think there are two important issues that should be considered if a kid is removed from their home.

Firstly where do you move them to? I think it would be innappropriate to move a kid to an environment where the culture, language, customs and food are totally different from their home environment.

For example, if it had been deemed necessary to remove me from my family (white European with Christian background) into an environment of say Eskimos. Not only would I have looked different to the Eskimos but the food would have been different, the customs would have been different etc. My life in regards to survival would have been secure though.

Secondly, I think the home situation should be monitored with the view of returning the kids.

I think you will find that many Aboriginal kids were taken from remote areas where their people lived a more traditional life into places like Sydney with no or little chance of returning.

There is no doubt that the intention of the foster parents was genuine and the care given to these kids was tops in many cases however these kids were removed from their extended family, their language, their customs etc.

It has been suggested that this was an intentional action by the authorities for purposes of weakening the Aboriginal race in order to ovecome "The Native Black Problem". The problem being that the Aboriginals were upset and becoming violent because they were no longer able to access their traditional land.

If that is the case, then the results are consistent with that suggestion.

I believe that this is mainly what the apology was all about. Not necessarily the abuse of some kids by their foster parents, not necessarily the sadness felt by a kid being dragged away from inept drunken parents but the intentional and systematic actions by past Australian Governments to weaken the Aboriginal Race for economic reasons under the guise of helping suffering kids. For that I think that the Australian Government should be sorry.

[HappyHammer]

In the 1930's New Zealand schools were teaching Maori history, culture etc. 2008 and we can say single words in Italian, Greek, Spanish etc. Not one word in any Aboriginal language I will bet.
Actually my kids have learnt about aboriginal culture at school and day care and last year at the age of 4 my son went on an excursion to a predominantly aboriginal school in Kempsey.

The trip inspired him to want to know more about Aboriginals and when my wife takes the kids to the library he always chooses at least one book from the Aboriginal section of the childrens library.

This has resulted in both us learning more about Aboriginal dreamtime which most of the books are based on.

HH.

[silentC]

Our Primary school flies the Aboriginal flag, is visited by Elders on special occasions, and has a segment of the opening address at every assembly that acknowledges the 'original custodians'. There isn't a single Aboriginal kid in the school.

My own experience with Aboriginal kids at school was mixed. Some were just normal kids, others you avoided at all costs. They tended to hunt in packs and woe betide any white kid who happened to walk down the wrong corridor or behind the wrong building at the wrong time. I admit I was sh*t scared of them for most of my school life.

Of course there were white kids who were as bad - I have the privilege of having done part of my high schooling next to a guy who went to Sydney, hired a cab, bashed and robbed the driver, put him in the boot and then set fire to the cab and another guy who tracked down and stabbed two of his ex-girlfriends with an ice pick. But they were just run of the mill nutters.

But there was no Aboriginal education of any sort that I remember. We basically carried on as if they never existed. So it's good that the schools now include it in the curriculum.

BTW, of the three Aboriginal guys in my year, one went on to join the army and now is a family man working for a local business. The other two both went to jail within a year of leaving school. I have no idea what happened to them after that.

[HappyHammer]

We don't have to remove the children from their community anyway. It'd be better to set up residential care facilities with committed, trained and non-partisan aboriginal carers in place, with the full support of our welfare and law enforcement and medical authorities.

That, my friends, is where any compensation monies should be allocated. To the future, not to the damaged past.
I was thinking exactly the same thing as I read your post.

Why can't the communities be evaluated and rated. From "Imminent danger for minors" to "Community able to temporarily house removed children" or something like that, you can see I haven't thought it through but to start discussion......

If the community as a whole was rated and that was a factor in you getting your kids back as well as your own behaviour and circumstances maybe this would generate pressure within the community to sort things out, just a thought....

HH.

[silentC]

Would still be viewed as the white fella sticking his nose in where it's not wanted.

[HappyHammer]

Would still be viewed as the white fella sticking his nose in where it's not wanted.
Agreed but that's gonna happen whatever the solution so I reckon everyone needs to get over that. My fear is that K07 won't have the cashews to make the tough decisions now that he thinks he's the most popular white person in Australia with the Aboriginals.

HH.

[Wood Borer]

The Pom's response (http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2008/02/14/1202760432552.html)

Maybe we should consider removing their smudge from our flag and replacing it with something relevant.

[Gra]

Maybe we should consider removing their smudge from our flag and replacing it with something relevant.

WB I have always said that, but thats another argument....

[dazzler]

I appreciate your candid reply Dazzler. Like many issues there are not just two simple sides where the goodies wear a white hat and the baddies wear a black hat.

.

Cheers Wood borer,

I think this just about sums it up for me. I would love to know the full history of our country, warts and all. A truthful, researched and documented history that is not written through rose coloured glasses as it has been up to this date.

Obviously I love a debate, :rolleyes:, but will sign off now for others to continue.
(cue: clapping from the sidelines):)

For those who the apology was for I wish you all the best.

cheers

dazzler

[Fuzzie]

The Pom's response (http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2008/02/14/1202760432552.html)

Maybe we should consider removing their smudge from our flag and replacing it with something relevant.

They'd have to say sorry to the 10000 stolen English children sent to Australia after WWII as well.......

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/1999/03/24/60II/main40269.shtml

[HappyHammer]

A couple of quotes in the SMH


Mr Rudd set his Government the following tasks: to provide every indigenous four-year-old in a remote community with early childhood education within five years; to halve the gap between white and black Australia in literacy, numeracy and literacy within a decade; to halve the infant mortality rates within a generation; and close the life expectancy gap.
"None of this will be easy, most of it will be hard, very hard," he said. "But none of it is impossible." Referring to the joint approach with Dr Nelson, Mr Rudd said: "It's not sentiment that makes history, it's actions. The nation is calling on us, the politicians, to move beyond our infantile bickering, our point-scoring and our mindlessly partisan politics and elevate at least this one core area of national responsibility to a rare position beyond the partisan divide.

Dr Bill Glasson, the medical leader of the Northern Territory intervention, said the targets were "absolutely possible". But there was a need to combat violence and alcohol abuse and improve schooling, housing, sanitation and fresh food supply.
Well we have a plan and some targets. I think the co-chairmen idea of the "war-room" is a good idea. Not sure about War-room bit though....

Some indigenous leaders said the issue would not go away. "It's not important today, but it will still be on the agenda," Lowitja O'Donoghue said. She said there should be a statutory authority set up to deal with compensation claims.
The man dubbed the father of reconciliation, Pat Dodson, also supported compensation, but said he would prefer to concentrate on the "reservoir of goodwill" created by the Government's apology.
"Don't be disappointed if you don't get all the things you wanted on the one day," said Mr Dodson, the former chairman of the Council for Aboriginal Reconciliation. "Any group of people who have been treated badly under laws made legitimately by the crown deserve to pursue compensation judicially, legally or politically and they deserve our support."

So compensation claims are on the way. My opinion on these claims has shifted to allow them for those directly affected but for no general payments to be made unless put into a fund to assist with other issues in the community which would be a nice gesture form those affected by the stolen generation....

HH.

[HappyHammer]

The Pom's response (http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2008/02/14/1202760432552.html)

Maybe we should consider removing their smudge from our flag and replacing it with something relevant.
A good opportunity for Geoffrey to get some free press I reckon. He knows that if the poms put there hands up to this then over 2 billion former citizens of the empire will be lodging claims for compensation which is why it won't happen.

HH.

[Wood Borer]

They'd have to say sorry to the 10000 stolen English children sent to Australia after WWII as well.......

Or say sorry to those they left behind.:wink:

[pharmaboy2]

I would love to know the full history of our country, warts and all. A truthful, researched and documented history that is not written through rose coloured glasses as it has been up to this date.

cheers

dazzler

the problem with a "truthful, researched and documented history" is that the inclusion of "documented" thus excludes the version that doesnt have a written history, so all of that side is "oral"! The other side of course, includes all "oral" on the same strength as written, and thus for any one event there are 2 often entirely different versions. The history debate is extremely polarised on the use of oral information versus documentation and thus the neutral view is a utopia that doesnt exist, because of the bias of method.

You are either a "black armband" viewer of history, ala reynolds/Clark, OR a European documented historian, ala Blainey/ Windschuttle - there is no in between version.

[HappyHammer]

http://www.sydneyline.com/National%20Museum%20Frontier%20Conflict.htm

I think there is some fibs on both sides.
An interesting read. It would be good to get someone independent of the techniques and the history itself to deliver some kind of mythbusters report.

HH.

[MICKYG]

It will be quite a lot of years yet before Utopia is delivered to the Aboriginal communities, and I do not think Kevs Goverment has the answers to these age old problems. There have been billions of dollars thrown at this problem and it is no closer to being sorted. This will be something with opinions of difference being debated very comfortably for the next 50 Years.

Regards Mike.

[madrat]

This thread sucks.
and i'll say no more to all you pathetic sods regarding your trivial little whinges
I am disgusted

Astrid


I'm with you Dazzler!

...and to Astrid, i think you need to say sorry for your reference, 'pathetic sods'. Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

We are still in Australia aren't we? Freedom of speech and all??

[madrat]

Show me where we legally have freedom of speech??

Point taken Gra.
You know, thinking about it, we don't really have freedom of speech nowadays do we?
Everything has to be 'politically correct' or else it's seen as racism or harrassment.
I admit my anti sorry is most probably for all the wrong reasons.
I have worked in an industry for the last 20years where I see the Aboriginals decline job offers due to 'walkabout' and still receive their dole cheques. I also saw cases of a non-aboriginals unable to attend job interviews for 'ligit' reasons and they battled to get their Unemp benefits back!
I was assaulted by an Aboriginal and had to fight my case. No 'sorry' was given to me for that.
Pretty much got nothing to do with the 'apparent reason' for the apology, but just wanted to say that my opinion was based on personal experience and admittedly am too stubborn and bitter to change it for whatever reason.
Shame really, i never had a bad word to say against them until they directly affected me in a negative way.
"shallow" I hear you all say?
I can sleep at night!

[silentC]

The way you're supposed to look at events like those is to blame the individual, not the whole race. Unfortunately, there's a bit of a repeating pattern there that's difficult to ignore.

Regarding employment, jobs frequently appear in the local paper where indigenous ancestry is a requirement. "Aboriginality is registered as a legitimate job criteria under the anti-discrimination act 1996". I always thought that was a bit ironic.

[Zed]

ok flame me but :

Until the aboriginal communities decide to :

1) STOP drinking and taking drugs
2) get jobs and spend the money they've earned wisely
3) not abuse eachother or thier kids
4) grow up and join the 21st century instead of lamenting a lost culture (which they can hold on to by the way - just like other cultures arund the world have done...)
5) use the pillars in there communities as role models rather than call 'em "lucky" (Goolagong, Meninga, Mundine etc etc...)
6) consider leaving thier ancestral homelands (like billions!!! of people elsewhere have done) to get ahead and a headstart
7) stop blaming past injustices for thier present plight

then they will always remain the same. Who said "if you always do the same thing the same way you should always expect the same result!" ??? how true is that. Ok they had a rough trot. suck it up and GET ON WITH IT!!! yeah ?

I wish my oldies had more than a $10 boat ride and 3 suitcases when we came to this country.... Sorry, but.... handouts should stop. stand on your own feet.. please!

[Wood Borer]

Geez Zed, you have just wiped out the Western World.

Perhaps we could have different ideas about what the sorry was for. Perhaps some people feel the sorry is for saving kids who were at risk from their parents.

I suggested in an earlier post that I saw the "sorry" as an apology for previous governments (mainly British but also Australian) for having policies to deliberately wipe out the Aboriginal culture and possibly the entire race by attempting to break the link between generations under the guise of protecting kids. I see the reason for this as purely economical greed.

Nothing to do with some contempory Aboriginals hitting the bottle, nothing to do with squandering money, nothing to with child abuse, nothing to do with you being beaten up by some drunken Aboriginal yobbo etc.

To not say sorry for those apalling policies for the reasons above is like not believing the holocaust was a terrible thing because a Jew short changed you last week.

[Zed]

you got me wrong WB, My post had nothing to do with being sorry about anything, coz I aint. My ansectors didnt steal babies... and neither did I. One of my uncles was on the losing side of WW2; He aint sorry tho - he died in the conflict.... mind u the recruitment policies of the time were sorta like the stolen genreations in some ways; "come with me now... put on this uniform. now. do As I say. now."

My comment in the above post was meant to be a statement of observation wrt to the current plight of indigenious communities in Oz... not about how good or bad individuals are or a backahnd sorry from an elected official.

[silentC]

I suggested in an earlier post that I saw the "sorry" as an apology for previous governments (mainly British but also Australian) for having policies to deliberately wipe out the Aboriginal culture and possibly the entire race by attempting to break the link between generations under the guise of protecting kids. I see the reason for this as purely economical greed.
Trouble is, there isn't universal agreement that those policies actually existed in that form. There is ongoing debate concerning the findings of the Bringing Them Home report and as far as a lot of academics are concerned, it is far from a given that those policies existed.

Now I'm not saying that these things didn't happen the way they have been presented, because I don't know. All I'm saying is that the case is not as clear cut as some would have us believe.

Again I highlight the missionary workers who looked after these kids. How would you feel if you had spent your working life helping people like that, only to have your government turn around and apologise for your efforts?

[astrid]

Well. whats done is done, a sincere and heartfelt apology has been made from one Australian parlement, for the wrong doing of another.
As you guys seem to demand, get over it and move on.

Astrid:U

[Wood Borer]

Or, how would I feel if I was one of the caring missionaries who discovered that I had been hoodwinked into doing the governments dirty work under the guise of caring for the dear little children.

I have no hatred of the missionaries however I have reservations about the intentions of the people who organised the missionaries.

I have been desperately looking for a book that made reference to the Poms sending out Scientists to prove that the Tasmanian Aborigines were destined for extinction anyway so wiping them out now merely accelerated nature's way.

[silentC]

Yes I could easily believe that. It's common knowledge that they thought the 'coloured' races were inferior back then. As for the missionaries, they might have held similar views too but thought they were doing the right thing by helping the heathen savages. Thankfully we've moved on from that kind of thinking now.

Look, I don't begrudge them this apology - there seemed to be a lot of happy faces there yesterday (except when Nelson was speaking) - but I'm sceptical about what real good it's going to bring. I'm also cynical about Rudd's motivations. He is a politician after all.

[madrat]

I'm also cynical about Rudd's motivations. He is a politician after all.


Hmmm. tend to agree.

Pollies looking for brownie points???? Who'd have thought.

[silentC]

Exactly. No matter what else he does while he's in office, Rudd will always be "the PM who apologised to the Stolen Generation".

[madrat]

Exactly. No matter what else he does while he's in office, Rudd will always be "the PM who apologised to the Stolen Generation".

silentC, you just hit the nail right on the head.

At the end of the day, just about every PM and/or President is famous for something they have either said or done and I think this is it for Rudd.

He started early, let's see if he can top it throughout his duration in his current seat in power.

[jow104]

From a Pom.

Can anyone tell me of any political leader in the world today that hasnt got the need to apologise for his previous predeccors actions?

I cant think of one.

Its not the general public, its politicians who have got the guilty conscience.

[Woodlee]

They'd have to say sorry to the 10000 stolen English children sent to Australia after WWII as well.......

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/1999/03/24/60II/main40269.shtml



And to all the people of all the other nations they pillaged and sacked in the name of the British Empire.

Kev.

[Woodlee]

[quote=madrat;682877]Point taken Gra.
You know, thinking about it, we don't really have freedom of speech nowadays do we?


Australians will never have any rights until we have a bill of rights enacted and inserted into the constitution or at least an annex or addendum to it.

The "rights" we have are only assumed and at governments pleasure.
Maybe the new Government will take this issue on board.

Even Communist Russia has a bill of rights for its citizens.

[wayfarer]

...
...
"By 1990, no child shall be living in poverty"







...And we'll plant a few trees too.

[journeyman Mick]

Or say sorry to those they left behind.:wink:

:D:D

Mick

[RETIRED]

Thank you Ladies and Gentlemen for a most interesting debate. It is starting to get off course now after being a done deal so....................