More Sorry Suggestions

[HappyHammer]

I can empathise with the passion for the desire of an apology but i cant understand the objection...when as far as i can see, there will be no direct negative effect on anyone not directly involved.
The problem might be that there are obviously many people with this view whether you understand it or not and they will look at the apology in a negative way if it's put forward on behalf of all Australians.

This negativity may find it's way passed the apology and impact on aborigines as people associate the apology with Aborigines. Not suggesting this will happen with SilentC but it may with people who have a negativitiy towards aborigines already. This means the apology may have a negative not positive impact if pitched as from all australians.

Let's see what Kevin comes up with......

HH.

[Clinton1]

Apologies for past Government policies which caused harm or were 'wrong' have been done before.

I know a lot of Govt policies usually end up with poor outcomes, but some outcomes are so poor that they need to be re-addressed.

Silent has pointed out that it is the Stolen Generation that is to receive the apology, and I'm waiting and see the details.

Regardless of the individual circumstances of the children that were removed from their families (I'll even grant that 100% were removed from a rather dismal situation - I don't believe it, but 'just for the sake of the argument')... the fact remains that a lot of the Stolen Generation experienced something that was destructive and led to a hell of a lot of harm.

My view is that if the Govt policy/legislation at the time was to remove some children, then the Govt at that time had a responsibility to those children to ensure that they were cared for to an acceptable standard.
The doctors standard of "do no harm' springs to mind.

The current govt can certainly seek to redress the harm caused by previous Govt policy, and can seek to offer an apology and/or compensation.

Basically, my view is that if the past Govt policy was so bad, then the current Govt is morally obliged (legally - I hope so) to redress the issue.

How far back in time this obligation extends... well, I think that the British Govt is never going to say sorry for 'transportation'... but they can say sorry for inflicting the Spice Girls on us all.

As to 'fixing' the rather woeful situation that some Aboriginal Australians find themselves in.... I have no idea, but hopefully better minds than mine can get in and help to resolve some of the issues.

Suggesting that "we" gave "them" this, that and the next thing is rather unhelpful, and misses the point that "they" are part of that wonderful thing called "the Australian community" and it should really be one rather large and happy family.
Obviously some of the family have rather specific needs at the moment... hopefully the nation can lend a hand, as is both the obligation and the right.

[woodbe]

sounds like you have submitted rather than come around? Weary of the constant political game, the point scoring, the concentration on one issue that certainly isnt the most important one - after all you cant eat or live under an apology.

Yes, sick of the political game on this issue.

I have never understood what the problem with making an apology was. At one time, I thought that the government's reticence was because of the potential costs, but now, post-intervention, I'm not so sure.

woodbe.

[silentC]

The real challenge in Aboriginal policy is to "get away from all this romantic about Aboriginal culture" and to "get rid of this PC crap and confront some very, very tough issues". The person who said this last week was not a Liberal politician but Warren Mundine, an Aborigine and the Labor Party's former national president.

[B]The risk of reinforcing the victim mindset, which Mundine bluntly warns against, was one of the principal reasons why the former Howard government refused to make a formal apology. Instead, the former government tried to work with people such as Mundine and Noel Pearson to encourage Aboriginal people to take more personal responsibility for their own lives.
From Tony Abbott's opinion piece in the Sydney Morning Herald

[dazzler]

Im just courious...why people get so worked up about this so called apology. Is it really going to effect anyone that the "apology" is'nt directed at.

I mean for the average non aboriginal Australian is this apology going to make one little bit of difference to their life ?.

I understand some are concerned about the possible legal ramifications due to compensation....but as far as i understand anyone with a genuine claim already has the right under the law to make a case for compensation

cheers
BD:)

Hi BD

Interesting points you make. I dont get passionate but enjoy a debate about something that interests me.

I am for compensation as victims of crime for all children taken from thier parents and abused / neglected as a result and would go further. A court or commission solely set up for this function where the person can go before and thier circumstances set out for the court to decide if reparation and an apology is needed. If it is then the compensation should reflect the hurt caused. Unlimited medical care and mental health care where required should be offered.

Each case needs to be assessed on its merits and in some cases huge compensation should be paid. In some cases no compensation need be paid if the child was removed from a bad place and put in a good place so to speak and turned out better for the experience.

The canadians spent $1.9 billion canadian paying reparation. It boiled down to a payment of about $10k per person. What a croc.

What gets me is this. If a group of people are so mentally unwell that they require an apology from another group before they can move forward then they are going to require a lot of psychological help to deal with it afterwards.

What has Mr Rudd put in place for this.

Tomorrow we are going to have a large number of people effected by his apology and many will need counselling or more to deal with it. There will be a large void to fill and I doubt there is anything to fill it with.

Has anyone picked up on the fact that the midday news on ABC stated that a large number of indigenous people are attending not from the group being apologised to but to protest the "intervention". Priorities all screwed up:rolleyes:

[Brown Dog]

The problem might be that there are obviously many people with this view whether you understand it or not and they will look at the apology in a negative way if it's put forward on behalf of all Australians.



I agree that many may people think that this apology is negative for Australia HH...and i will argue to the death for this right

Im trying not arguing one way or the other( althought I do have an opinion)I understand that many Australians are opposed to the current government saying sorry....i suppose what im after is a logical reason why ? I may have missed it but so far I have'nt come across an argument that demonstrates conclusively that this apology is going to effect the average Australian in a negative way..,..dont get me wrong I still respect people who have a different opinion... I am just yet to be convinced

A little back ground of where i am coming from... I dont believe or respect anything that appears in the printed/televised media (based on personnel experience)and that may be to my detriment. Though I do regard one on one interviews with the main principal (Kevin Ruddin this case ) as being a reasonable indication of intentions. And from what I can gather after the interview with Laurie Oaks on the Sunday program... Is that KR is trying to resolve the difference between the average Aussie and indegineous Aussie's life span. Which personally I cant see the harm in whether or not an apology is involved.

cheers
BD:)

[woodbe]

SilentC,

Oh wait. A politician telling us after the event why they didn't do something, in lightly veiled dig at the new government, who is doing it.

Excuse my cynicism. :)

woodbe

[pharmaboy2]

Silentc, the problem with the "reason" given by Tony Abbott, is that the element of society that is angry at aboriginals (for want of a better (read more accurate), word) sided strongly with the govt. So as a result the pragmatists AND the "anti aboriginals", get lumped into the same boat.

The end result of that was the govt was acused quite widely of pandering towards racism by their policy - its a rock and a hard place.

On the positive side, men such as Noel Pearson and Warren Mundine werent voicing these opinions a decade ago, so maybe we are getting somewhere, and it will build, and hence maybe real actual action will be taken in the future......

[HappyHammer]

... Is that KR is trying to resolve the difference between the average Aussie and indegineous Aussie's life span. Which personally I cant see the harm in whether or not an apology is involved
That's a great intention and apparently was actually achieved by the last government. I'd like to see Kevins plan to continue and improve upon this trend.

HH.

[HappyHammer]

SilentC,

Oh wait. A politician telling us after the event why they didn't do something, in lightly veiled dig at the new government, who is doing it.

Excuse my cynicism. :)

woodbe
He actually suggests in the article that they did do something which was to increase the average life expectancy.

Apart from a grandstand apology what has Kevin actually done or does he plan to do? I guess we'll have to wait and see.

HH.

[silentC]

Brown dog: a thing doesn't have to directly affect you in a negative (or positive) way for you to have a strong opinion concerning it.

Woodbe: You can say the same for anything that a politician says or does, so we might as well remove them from the equation if we take that line. I'm not supporting his opinion, I just posted it in response to the question asked. Your guess is as good as mine as to the real reasons.

[Brown Dog]

That's a great intention and apparently was actually achieved by the last government


was it ? why is there still an issue then ?

Im not a massive Kevin devote..really I couldnt care less who is in power (their all the same to me).....but.... all we have to go on so far is intentions. And as far as i can remember KR promised he would address this issue as an election promise...just like JH promised there would never be a GST :rolleyes:

[woodbe]

SilentC,

Understood.

Thanks for posting it, my politicalBS filter needed a bit of calibration :)

woodbe.

[Brown Dog]

Brown dog: a thing doesn't have to directly affect you in a negative (or positive) way for you to have a strong opinion concerning it.


I totally agree SC
Im not arguing anyones right to an opinion ...Im just saying...so far I havent heard an argument that to me.... supports the negative(to my satisfaction)... for me to change my opinion (which is always open to change:rolleyes:)

But I would would really like too... as i said Im undecided on whether or not this apology is a good thing...though I am leaning to one side ...that doesnt mean to say I cant be convinced one way or the other... As i said i dont hold much stead in what the media says....but I am more than willing for some one to convince me that this apology is a negative thing or confirm that my opinion so far is valid

[silentC]

OK, well apart from the knee-jerk reaction, which is to ask "why should I apologise to these people for anything, I didn't do it to them", the main argument against an apology that I guess I favour above any of the others is the promotion of the victim mentality. I reckon it just gives them another reason to say "poor fella me" instead of grabbing themselves by the seat of the pants and doing something about their situation, which is pretty much what would be expected of me if I was wallowing in similar circumstances. That's pretty much it for me. I'm not going to shout for the overthrow of the government, or fire bomb parliament, or start kicking every indigenous person I see as a result of an apology being given. It will just cause me to sigh and roll my eyes. And then we'll have to find something else to talk about :)

[dazzler]

was it ? why is there still an issue then ?

Im not a massive Kevin devote..really I couldnt care less who is in power (their all the same to me).....but.... all we have to go on so far is intentions. And as far as i can remember KR promised he would address this issue as an election promise...just like JH promised there would never be a GST :rolleyes:

This from Reconcile;

8. Why is the word ‘sorry’ important as part of the apology?

The word ‘sorry’ holds special meaning in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander culture. In many Aboriginal communities, sorry is an adapted English word used to describe the rituals surrounding death (Sorry Business). Sorry, in these contexts, is also often used to express empathy or sympathy rather than responsibility.

During the 2007 election campaign, then Opposition Leader Kevin Rudd also recognised the significance of the word sorry:

“… simply saying that you’re sorry is such a powerful symbol. Powerful not because it represents some expiation of guilt. Powerful not because it represents any form of legal requirement. But powerful simply because it restores respect”

No wonder people like me get confused and dont "get it". Why not use the actual aboriginal word for empathy or sympathy instead of a bastardised englishword.

So here goes, truly from my heart.

"Dazzler wishes to express his Madja for the gaayinmara who were inappropriately taken from thier ngambaa and wish thier gii is thanga."

[Rossluck]

I can see that my red-neck reference was offensive, but I refuse to apologise, because that was in the past and I've disassociated myself from it on the grounds that I was in a different mood then. My vague and distorted memory of it is that, like Astrid, I was angered by some offensive threads. By red-neck I suppose I simple mean right-wing viewpoints such as those in the offensive threads, but I didn't have anyone in mind in particular.

What we have had in this thread is a whole series of members deciding what the indigenous people should want, how they should behave. This is at the crux of the problem: we've been pushing them around for 200 years. If we really do accept that they are our equals then we have to ask them what we need to do to fully accept them as ... us. They have told us that they have been hurt by some of our actions in the past, and that the first real step, albeit symbolic, is an apology for these actions. It really isn't that big a deal you know, and some of you who have contributed to this thread need to ask yourselves why it inspires such strong emotions in you. What is it saying about you? Is it because you're re ... , ooops, umm, people with a conservative outlook?:)

[woodbe]

Ross,

Very ironic first paragraph. Well done.

woodbe.

[bitingmidge]

IIt really isn't that big a deal you know, and some of you who have contributed to this thread need to ask yourselves why it inspires such strong emotions in you. What is it saying about you? Is it because you're re ... , ooops, umm, people with a conservative outlook?:)

No, it says we really don't think it's a big deal, and we're mystified as to why it's being made to be one.

P
:cool:

[Gingermick]

"Dazzler wishes to express his Madja for the gaayinmara who were inappropriately taken from thier ngambaa and wish thier gii is thanga."

Did I see pics of you working in PNG building houses or something a while back?

[silentC]

some of you who have contributed to this thread need to ask yourselves why it inspires such strong emotions in you
Hmm, "redneck" is a somewhat emotive term, wouldn't you say? So have you asked yourself (and maybe Astrid can ask herself the same question) why the desire for an apology inspires such strong emotions in you? Why do you feel all this guilt that you need to be forgiven for? Is there something you'd like to tell us?

[Gingermick]

Well I feel strong empathy (after watching Rabbit proof fence) and feel that it can only do good.

[silentC]

Maybe they should make a movie about that girl who died in the dirt last year because her indigenous foster mother couldn't be bothered taking her to a hospital? I feel empathy for her too.

[HappyHammer]

Maybe they should make a movie about that girl who died in the dirt last year because her indigenous foster mother couldn't be bothered taking her to a hospital? I feel empathy for her too.
And the white girl who starved to death in Hawks Nest. I think whatever is bought in to solve the problems of the aboriginies should apply to all of these "people" regardless of colour or ethnic background. This might help to relieve the perception that things are being done to Aboriginies as a special case.

HH.

[Clinton1]

I can see that my red-neck reference was offensive, but I refuse to apologise, because that was in the past and I've disassociated myself from it on the grounds that I was in a different mood then.


:D :D :D

[Waldo]

... should apply to all of these "people" regardless of colour or ethnic background. This might help to relieve the perception that things are being done to Aboriginies as a special case.

HH.

:iagree: :2tsup: Probably the best put so far and succinctly too. :clap:

[MICKYG]

Forum members who have contributed to this thread if you do a search of www.news.com.au/heraldsun/ (http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/) a Victorian paper ?

There is an article written by Andrew Bolt on January 30 2008 which really puts this into perspective. The title of the article is "Why we should not be saying sorry"

It is in the items numbered 91 to 100. This is non emotional, non derogatory, does not refer to anyone as being a redneck, just a very good factual article in my opinion regardless of which side of the fence you may be on.

There is a link which will save a search down on post 131 Thanks

Regards Mike

[silentC]

should apply to all of these "people" regardless of colour or ethnic background. This might help to relieve the perception that things are being done to Aboriginies as a special case.
Yes I agree. Unfortunately, there are too many 'special' processes in place. Like the one that says an indigenous child can't be taken into protective foster care until all avenues within the indigenous community have been exhausted - and then it has to be approved by tribal elders.

Do you think this situation exists because social workers thought it was best for all concerned?

[Big Shed]

Forum members who have contributed to this thread if you do a search of www.news.com.au/heraldsun/ (http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/) a Victorian paper ?

There is an article written by Andrew Bolt on January 30 2008 which really puts this into perspective. The title of the article is "Why we should not be saying sorry"

It is in the items numbered 91 to 100. This is non emotional, non derogatory, does not refer to anyone as being a redneck, just a very good factual article in my opinion regardless of which side of the fence you may be on.

Regards Mike


The article is HERE (http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23130015-25717,00.html).

Haven't read it yet, still finishing the book:D

[Waldo]

Thanks Mike, I'd been looking for that story by Bolt. :2tsup:

[HappyHammer]

Yes I agree. Unfortunately, there are too many 'special' processes in place. Like the one that says an indigenous child can't be taken into protective foster care until all avenues within the indigenous community have been exhausted - and then it has to be approved by tribal elders.

Do you think this situation exists because social workers thought it was best for all concerned?
Well that's just rubbish it should be one law for all, not taking the chance that a child may suffer prelonged abuse because of an overly consultative approach.

The do-gooders may say this applies our values and does not allow for cultural differences but in the case of child safety I wouldn't have a problem with that.

Uhmm maybe this was the thought process back in the day.......

HH.

[silentC]

Well it's just one example of special rules that have been created for them because we must tip toe around their sensibilities. I can't see how an apology that officially recognises special circumstances is going to improve that situation. I'm sure it will make it worse. It will be the reference point for all future indigenous policy.

[Incoming!]

Is an apology a culturally appropriate response? Given the "traditional" method of settling disputes, I wonder if an apology to the stolen generation has any meaning, or if it simply affirms a greater loss of aboriginal culture. Rather like the taboo against seeing pictures or hearing voices of dead aboriginals on television. How recent is that particular "tradition"?

But - if it helps, if it removes the hold, if it can make a difference, then do it, regardless of any personal sense of responsibility. It clears one particular patch of air, and might enable some forward movement, or at least the initial unravelling of what indigenous Australians feel is the real issue.

Politicians were ever a bunch of realists, and Mr Rudd, in the finest tradition of Macchiavelli, is simply carrying on a political tradition - necessita - to do that which is necessary. Regardless of whether you feel the apology is from you or not, this apology by the Government establishes a moral precedent for intervention in aboriginal affairs. Which is, I feel, why so many aboriginals are reluctant to accept an apology. Just my thoughts.

[Gingermick]

Maybe they should make a movie about that girl who died in the dirt last year because her indigenous foster mother couldn't be bothered taking her to a hospital? I feel empathy for her too.

No, we should just apologise for giving them the grog :rolleyes: and the dole with which to buy it. :wink:

[dazzler]

Come on Governer Ross,

Stand by your comments, dont hide behind rubbish, as clever as it may be. You stuck your head out, dont hide like Astrid.

Tell us what you are going to do?

[Greg Ward]

Hey Dazzler,

I gave my sixpenth worth early in the piece and nothing I have read has changed my thoughts in any way.

All I know is that most of those who I read pontificating or I hear on the radio breaking into tears as they feel so good about tomorrow are hypocrites.

Not for them the hard work in the red centre struggling to teach dysfunctional locals or assisting at Moree in educating poor kids, or understanding the reality that around 5% of kids in the NT have STDs.

Kevin will make them feel good, so they don't have to do anything else and the problem of the colonial past will be addressed.

A pox on the lot of them.
I'm no hypocrite, I'll be cutting up trees and I enjoy it.

Greg

[dazzler]

I can see that my red-neck reference was offensive, but I refuse to apologise, because that was in the past and I've disassociated myself from it on the grounds that I was in a different mood then. My vague and distorted memory of it is that, like Astrid, I was angered by some offensive threads. By red-neck I suppose I simple mean right-wing viewpoints such as those in the offensive threads, but I didn't have anyone in mind in particular.



I would like to say sorry on behalf of Rossluck.

Sorry :D

[MICKYG]

Well said dazzler:D:D:D:2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

Regards Mike

[Blarney]

I have been following this thread with interest. It reminds me of a speech that was made on Tuesday, 10th September 1996. by a politician.

For this speech she was hung out to dry by the press at that time.

Read the WHOLE speech and the comments on the yellow panel next to it. http://www.australian-news.com.au/maiden_speech.htm

To Astrid, have you ever lived or worked wth Aboriginals?

[Jack E]

What I actually said was

put it in the hands of idiots,

Most everyone else must be idiots, mustn't they.
As for this comment, I guess we'll see over the next 4 years.

Cheers, Jack

[Jack E]

To Astrid, have you ever lived or worked wth Aboriginals?

Probably not, but a few books on the subject surely equals life experience:)

Cheers, Jack

[Big Shed]

The full wording of KR's apology (http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/pms-sorry-address/2008/02/12/1202760291188.html) is now available.

[Blarney]

Not a bad bit of writing but the last para will be interesting to see if it is embraced.

A future where all Australians, whatever their origins, are truly equal partners, with equal opportunities and with an equal stake in shaping the next chapter in the history of this great country, Australia.

[Rossluck]

I would like to say sorry on behalf of Rossluck.

Sorry :D


Thanks Daz.:2tsup:

[Rocker]

He didn't say a word about Bob Collins:(

Rocker

[Incoming!]

Weeeeelllll - there will, no doubt, be more penetrating analyses over the next few days than mine - but my first impression is that it will not satisfy.

I'm not sure how much formality there should be in a formal apology, but this one seems to lack - heart. There's an unfortunate use of ringing rhetoric designed to immortalise the speaker in Hansard rather than generate much good will. Not quite as bad as John Howard's Centenary of Federation speech, but almost as likely to be forgotten as quickly.

It's a fairly sweeping apology as well, which while singling out the members of the stolen generation, also encompasses descendants as well as acknowledging an impact on the wider aboriginal community. The speech tries to do too much in too short a sound grab, and leaves plenty of openings for the disaffected to read "opportunity to capitalise".

Sorry KR - it wasn't a bad first draft, but I don't think it will achieve what we'd all like it to.

[Gingermick]

Well I think he's struck a nice balance.

[Groggy]

The Government has taken their best shot, I'll give them credit for that. Let's see how it is accepted.

[fred.n]

The Government has taken their best shot, I'll give them credit for that. Let's see how it is accepted.

or, if it will be accepted.

[woodbe]

And the white girl who starved to death in Hawks Nest. I think whatever is bought in to solve the problems of the aboriginies should apply to all of these "people" regardless of colour or ethnic background. This might help to relieve the perception that things are being done to Aboriginies as a special case.

HH.

The story of Shellay Ward is particularly compelling, and especially because it occurred within the bounds of a theoretically 'normal' white Australian family. Her death occurred under the very noses of the Dept of Community Services. That the child was suffering from a disability makes the story even more poignant, but try as I might, I cannot see anything other than vague parallels with the apparently generalised child abuse that has been reported of late in some indigenous communities.

Call me a bleeding heart if you want, but I shed a tear for Shellay, and I shed a tear for those terrified Aboriginal kids.

Something has to be done, and if an apology is part of the solution lets get on with it. I'm not looking for our relatively safe and comfortable white society to get equal treatment, we're not living in that particular hell, and neither are our kids.

woodbe.

[silentC]

Weeeeelllll - there will, no doubt, be more penetrating analyses over the next few days than mine
Wishy washy meaningless watery pap. How's that for penetrating?

Not at all suprised at the lack of content, reads just like any of his other speeches I suppose. Oh well, tick that box - delivered as promised.

Now we await the profound changes it will bring...

[patty]

Well I tell ya what if I was on living in such a nice place such as this hunting and gathering like my past families for the last 40,000 years without a financial worry in the world no cars no employment, no tax man no petrol bills and nobody else except for fellow tribes and brothers and the bush and waterholes stockpiled full of fish and all of a sudden strangers come into my world and shoot at me and my family then we finally get accepted on the condition we have no real rights and then these strangers decide what is right for your family and take them away from you whaty is so right about that????

[bitingmidge]

Now we await the profound changes it will bring...
Will that happen before or after I get my broadband?

P
:p

[astrid]

Hi there gang,
didnt post and run, it was getting on for 1am.
posting and running is really not my style.
now as this thread is running to some 150 posts it will probably take a while to read it all.
And my comment re reading one book, of course refered to one non fictional, contemporary book on the subject.

And i make absolutely no apollogie for for calling a spade a spade,
different opinion is one thing, trivializing peoples sorrow is another, and those who do, deserve what they get.

Astrid

[dazzler]

Well I tell ya what if I was on living in such a nice place such as this hunting and gathering like my past families for the last 40,000 years without a financial worry in the world no cars no employment, no tax man no petrol bills and nobody else except for fellow tribes and brothers and the bush and waterholes stockpiled full of fish and all of a sudden strangers come into my world and shoot at me and my family then we finally get accepted on the condition we have no real rights and then these strangers decide what is right for your family and take them away from you whaty is so right about that????

Hi Patty,

It sucks big time. The question is are Australians of today accountable and should they offer an apology. A mute point as it will happen tommorow morning. Lets hope it can assauge the sadness of those affected.

cheers

darren

[Calm]

Well I think he's struck a nice balance.

I would suggest that a couple of Lawyers and a few native australians will definitely try to improve their "nice balance" from the wording of this speech.

I am not necasarily against compensation for those affected - BUT will it do them any good in the long run? or will it end up with the other millions that Mr Clarke was in charge of distributing/handling.

[johnc]

There was an interview on ABC radio with an Elder from goodness knows where other than somewhere up North. He was happy about the apology but wanted Government intervention to end because black fellas law was capable of dealing with all their problems (just leave them alone and they will create a perfect society). What a crock of rubbish, pressed on sexual abuse of children he just declined to answer. Let's get on with the apology, but it is going to be a long road before some of these people get the idea that the law is for everyone as that is the only way you will get security, safety and an opportunity for the next generation to live a better life free of the domestic violence, poverty, poor health and hopelessness that pervades some of these camps. Men like these are no better than the so called red necks because they choose to believe what they want to rather than open their eyes to the truth of whats around them.

However I think these voices have lost there clout, there are a large number now that want to ackowledge what is really happening out there and those living in cloud cuckoo land are loosing their relevance.

[wayfarer]

I wonder if people here see the indigenous population as a section of the greater "Australian" culture or whether, one day, they'll realise that there are really two cultures living in one land? It seems to me that many posts here have an underlying thought that indigenous people ought to be judged/rewarded/cared-for by "our" standards rather than accept there is a real difference. That the needs and outlook of each are different as the colour of skin.

How long is it going to be before "white Australia" realises and accepts that "aboriginal" people don't want to be another form of white Australia? That they do not want to be assimilated. They have their own culture which they wish to preserve. And that it's their human right to retain their culture? That we have no right to expect anything different.

Who the hell are we to dispute that? What arrogance!

You'd have to think we'd be mature enough as a nation to be doing our utmost to change our attitude to accept our differences and to provide for them; to be their guardian; to protect them from the worst of our society. It's OUR responsibility to set things right.

We seem to try, but, like a poor marksman, we fail to hit the target time and time again.

To me, saying "sorry" is not about liability, it's about empathy for the worst of our relationship with each other. It's not about guilt, it's about sympathy. It's about healing and moving forward. Not a solution in itself, but a step forward.

The fact that people, all over, are talking about this is evidence of that very step forward.

[wayfarer]

There was an interview on ABC radio with an Elder from goodness knows where other than somewhere up North. He was happy about the apology but wanted Government intervention to end because black fellas law was capable of dealing with all their problems (just leave them alone and they will create a perfect society).

I'd hate to be seen as "selective" here, but I wonder if the media purposely find "experts" with outlandish opinions to help make a good story a sensational one? Call me a critic of "reporting" in this country, but they do and say stuff that makes me wonder.

[wayfarer]

Is this it? Is that all?

What utter crappola.

Seriously, why didn't he just give them beads and cut glass?

Bloody platitude central!

Obviously it's a hard thing to write and to get right... so many people want 2c and so many divergent opinions but this is.. well... wishy washy sound grabbing white washing white man's grand standing chest beating patriotic waffle.

Did George Bush write it?

Someone should have asked Malcolm Fraser if he had a spare ten minutes.

oh well, I suppose it's the act that counts, not the words.



I give notice that, at the next sitting, I will move:
That
Today we honour the Indigenous peoples of this land, the oldest continuing cultures in human history.
We reflect on their past mistreatment.
We reflect in particular on the mistreatment of those who were Stolen Generations - this blemished chapter in our nation's history.
The time has now come for the nation to turn a new page in Australia's history by righting the wrongs of the past and so moving forward with confidence to the future.
We apologise for the laws and policies of successive Parliaments and governments that have inflicted profound grief, suffering and loss on these our fellow Australians.
We apologise especially for the removal of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children from their families, their communities and their country.
For the pain, suffering and hurt of these Stolen Generations, their descendants and for their families left behind, we say sorry.
To the mothers and the fathers, the brothers and the sisters, for the breaking up of families and communities, we say sorry.
And for the indignity and degradation thus inflicted on a proud people and a proud culture, we say sorry.
We the Parliament of Australia respectfully request that this apology be received in the spirit in which it is offered as part of the healing of the nation.
For the future we take heart; resolving that this new page in the history of our great continent can now be written.
We today take this first step by acknowledging the past and laying claim to a future that embraces all Australians.
A future where this Parliament resolves that the injustices of the past must never, never happen again.
A future where we harness the determination of all Australians, Indigenous and non-Indigenous, to close the gap that lies between us in life expectancy, educational achievement and economic opportunity.
A future where we embrace the possibility of new solutions to enduring problems where old approaches have failed.
A future based on mutual respect, mutual resolve and mutual responsibility.
A future where all Australians, whatever their origins, are truly equal partners, with equal opportunities and with an equal stake in shaping the next chapter in the history of this great country, Australia.

[journeyman Mick]

...............and nobody else except for fellow tribes and brothers and the bush and waterholes stockpiled full of fish.............

Patty,
this is romantic nonsense. "Fellow tribes" used to fight each other to the death. There were over a hundered different languages (not dialects, but languages). It wasn't an idyllic, happy and easy existence, it was a grim struggle for survival most of the time. Some tribes practiced cannabalism when seasons were really tough and this included eating babies.:(

Mick

[HappyHammer]

.........., but try as I might, I cannot see anything other than vague parallels with the apparently generalised child abuse that has been reported of late in some indigenous communities.

Something has to be done, and if an apology is part of the solution lets get on with it. I'm not looking for our relatively safe and comfortable white society to get equal treatment, we're not living in that particular hell, and neither are our kids.
I attempted to draw the parallel to highlight the fact that whilst there are special rules, a level of mistrust and resentment will exist and solving the problem will be harder. Why not one rule for all.

I think that there are kids in safe, secure and loving environments in our culture as well as in the Aboriginal culture. Also there are sadly children suffering abuse on both sides also. The big difference seems to be that some of the elders within the aboriginal culture won't condemn the behaviour.


How long is it going to be before "white Australia" realises and accepts that "aboriginal" people don't want to be another form of white Australia? That they do not want to be assimilated. They have their own culture which they wish to preserve. And that it's their human right to retain their culture? That we have no right to expect anything different.

You'd have to think we'd be mature enough as a nation to be doing our utmost to change our attitude to accept our differences and to provide for them; to be their guardian; to protect them from the worst of our society. It's OUR responsibility to set things right.
Isn't it arrogant to assume we're thier guardian? Just a question.....

Also I'm assuming you don't include the acceptance of child abuse as an acceptable difference we should stand by and allow to occur?

I don't think anyone wants to make aborigines vanilla in anyway I think thier culture is very interesting and it would be a great loss to Australia to lose the knowledge and stories passed down generation to generation.

HH.

[astrid]

Some people cant seem to get the idea that no-one is asking individuals to apologize for something they had no hand in.

The cynical and cruel policies to achieve the genocide of the original inhabitants was the decision of the parlement of the day.
The responsibility to face up to the damage done, belongs to the parlement of today.
that is why both sides of the house are being asked to vote for it.

this is no different to the Japanese apologising to australia in 1956 (i think)
or the german gov apologizing to the Jews.

Its a confusing issue, but thats what its about.

The beauty of it is that the apology can be made to people still living.
This alone gives it meaning.

Astrid

[wayfarer]

Isn't it arrogant to assume we're thier guardian? Just a question..... I don't know for sure. I was thinking in a different context. My use of "Guardianship" was more akin to helping out because we can rather than "do as I say"


Also I'm assuming you don't include the acceptance of child abuse as an acceptable difference we should stand by and allow to occur?
HH.
Obviously not, ditto for any other human rights abuses. There has to be a responsibility to ourselves as well as our responsibility to "them". This implies some common ground, but it doesn't mean cultural oblivion. It's a more complex issue that I can explain in a woodworking forum and I don't pretend to understand all the issues and not much of most of them. :)

[HappyHammer]

Some people cant seem to get the idea that no-one is asking individuals to apologize for something they had no hand in.

The cynical and cruel policies to achieve the genocide of the original inhabitants was the decision of the parlement of the day.
The responsibility to face up to the damage done, belongs to the parlement of today.
that is why both sides of the house are being asked to vote for it.

this is no different to the Japanese apologising to australia in 1956 (i think)
or the german gov apologizing to the Jews.

Its a confusing issue, but thats what its about.

The beauty of it is that the apology can be made to people still living.
This alone gives it meaning.

Astrid
Thanks for clearing that up Astrid a total waste of 162 posts, why didn't you say that in the beginning :roll::?

Also if you want to call me a racist do it in the open forum not via PMs.:U

HH.

[HappyHammer]

There has to be a responsibility to ourselves as well as our responsibility to "them". This implies some common ground, but it doesn't mean cultural oblivion. It's a more complex issue that I can explain in a woodworking forum and I don't pretend to understand all the issues and not much of most of them. :)
Agreed this is what I was trying to get across in a previous post and this is also what makes it difficult and complicated. With the best intentions on both sides I think some hard calls need to be made and with politicians forever seeking popularity and the vote of the city dwelling psuedo lefties I doubt these calls will be made which is what frustrates me the most about this and many other issues.

HH.

[rod@plasterbrok]

Astrid, There was no plan for genocide by any Australian Government that is a blatant lie.

In fact every name put forward as a "stolen" person so far have been shown to be "saved" rather than stolen. Very very few and yet to be proven as taken or stolen purley of racial grounds. Half catse children back then were abused and abandoned, without intervention many or most would have died.

Rudd is saying sorry to all children taken without any consideration for those that indeed had to be taken for there own safety.

I guess its ok to leave a child to suffer sexual abuse that at age 10 is riddled with syphlis. If it is so wrong to take a child into care regardles black or white why are they still doing it this very day! And why is Rudd saying sory for doing what was and still is the right thing to do.

Saying sorry should be defined as those few who were taken purley on racist grounds. What he is doing here is undermining the welfare of kids that are being rapped and abused in the most horiffic circumstances that would never be tollerated in a normal community.

I don't have a problem him saying sorry to those genuinly taken for racist reasons. What he is about to do is wrong wrong wrong. My heart bleeds for the poor kids left in circumstances you could not imagine because it is seen as wrong to help them as defined by Rudd's blanket appology.

This will have the very opposite effect than what it is intended.

It will go down in history as the worst speach ever given in paliament purley because it does not recoginse or the good from the evil.

BTW books don't always tell the truth either! You would be one hell of a mixed up puppy if you believed everything you read.

[wayfarer]

I like spirited, meaningful, thoughtful conversation.
Name calling doesn't do it for me though.


I can get that from my sister in law. The evil witch. :)

[astrid]

OK,
Ill tell you a true story
In the early days of Australian silent film, a move was made about a little boy who escaped the aboriginee's chasing him and got back safe to the homestead,(the name of the film escapes me)
This was based on an incident that happened to "uncle Willie" an ancestor of my husbands family
What the film didnt show was that after willie got back safe, the men of the homestead mounted up, rode out to the aboriginal camp and shot every woman and child except one who they took back and brought up as an unpaid servant untill the day he died.
This was told to us by the daughter of the family before she died 10 years ago, she grew up with that boy.
I could name names and families,but i wont.
No action was taken against the perpetraitors of this atrocity although everyone knew about it.
This would have been about 1910

Astrid

[Fuzzie]

But Astrid that is nothing (edit: which I mean pre-dates) to do with the stolen generation stuff. It is an entirely different (edit: and more far reaching) issue that should be argued on grounds of racism or human rights or criminal law.

[Toyboy]

That 'story' is very similar to a number of factual recorded historical events that have taken place all over western Queensland, NSW, Tasmania and no doubt all the other states and territories. This does not for one moment make it right, but almost every country on Earth has a story to tell.
My point is that this bears no relevance to the 'sorry' issue at hand, so let's not muddy the waters any more than has already happened. It seems that all this business is allowing people to open old wounds.
There's obviously a lot of baggage being carried by a lot of people and at some point we have to build some bridges.
Whilst I disagree personally with the 'sorry' thing, it is another attempt at building a bridge, and let's face it, along this particular road, there will be many more to build, methinks.
So I think we should work on getting this one right with the tools that we've now been handed lest we follow off onto other tangents.

[johnc]

In answer to Rod, there can be little doubt that Government Officials either sanctioned or turned a blind eye to the multiple murders of Aboriginies. The wiping out of the Tasmanian population through organised shoots and miss treatment fit the title genocide. In our own town the local tribe was wiped out through the rounding up and shooting of large numbers, with the stragglers placed in a camp for their protection. Yet flour was delivered laced with arsenic, and that flour came from the Government. In the end the local problem was solved by wonton murder of innocents.

There can be little doubt that many children were unjustly removed and that the policies although misguided had their roots in the attitudes of the past. I don't think you can isolate the issue, the treatment of the original inhabitants has a lot to do with the current situation, because of the damage caused to those societies and the later inability to merge effectively with contempory Australian culture.

However I do think we need to seperate the past from the present, to mend the problem you have to put aside the past and work to rebuild communities and opportunity. Hopefully after the apology we will see the Aboriginal groups begin to engage in greater discussions on the changes they have to make in their own communities to improve their lot in life. It is up to the Government to help with resources and make damn sure we waste a darn sight less money then we have been. If the amount spent per capita was just given to them in their hands most native families could live in the lap of luxury. I actually think we are getting to excited about the apology, we should be more focused on what comes next.

[Waldo]

... I actually think we are getting to excited about the apology, we should be more focused on what comes next.

Unfortunately, I think it'll be compensation claims like never seen before. 07Ruds speech is too open and too generalised which will leave it open for interpretation by all parties whichever way you feel about this subject.

And please, don't misinterpret me, I am not racist in any manner - whatsoever.

[silentC]

How long is it going to be before "white Australia" realises and accepts that "aboriginal" people don't want to be another form of white Australia? That they do not want to be assimilated. They have their own culture which they wish to preserve. And that it's their human right to retain their culture? That we have no right to expect anything different.
Doesn't stop them from lining up at the white man's dole queue, does it? :)

But seriously, when was the last time you asked an Aboriginal person what they wanted? I know a handful and what they want is the same as what I want: somewhere to live, food on the table, a job, a future for their kids. Pride in their ancestry while acknowledging that the old ways are gone. Nothing wrong with that, is there? Why does "the white man's world" have to be the boogey man? No-one is forcing them to buy plasma TVs.

[rod@plasterbrok]

John, I understand many atrocities occured in the early settelment of Australia in particular, Tasmania.

I know this because it did not cost my parents a cent to put me through school and in primary school I received $7 per fornight (pocket money) that doubled to $14 while at high school. I was told this was compensation for the atrocities inflicted on my ancestors.

This does not change for a second what I posted above about Rudds sorry statement that will achieve nothing but division and suffering children well into the future. It literally makes me want to puke at the thought.

[dazzler]

The cynical and cruel policies to achieve the genocide of the original inhabitants was the decision of the parlement of the day.

Astrid

Which decision, which policy was passed by the "parlement of the day" to "achieve the genocide of the original inhabitants".

Dont worry about the bill number or which party was in power, just state which year or years it occurred?

[Toyboy]

Well put silentc. I reckon you've nailed it.....but if we took that approach, common sense that is, then there wouldn't be anything to bitch about, and without someone or something to whine about or something to throw money at, then the 'industry' would fold and everyone could have all those things you mention.:U

My God, we can't have that!:oo:

I read somewhere recently that some bloke had a vision.
"I wish there was a world without conflict, a world at peace etc.....then we could attack and they wouldn't be expecting it.":doh:

How scary is that? It was obviously said in jest, but sadly it seems to bear some truth as well. It reminds me of that old adage, "Many a true word is spoken in jest."

[patty]

the fact is White Australians have looked after and accomodated all sorts of races/religions in this country for a long time allowing them to build their churches mosques and communiites what positives have we done for for the real and original owners of this country???

[silentC]

Yeah mate, we haven't done a thing for them :rolleyes:

Well, it's all over now. Now we'll see what happens in the aftermath...

[Gingermick]

The prevailing Us and Them attitude got us into this mess. It needs to be redressed if we are ever to get out. :wink:

[silentC]

Yes that crossed my mind. It's hard to avoid when people say things like "what have we done for them" or "what are you going to do for us".

Just listening to the ABC wrap up interviewing some bloke from Reconciliation Australia, who saw such importance in the apology that he watched it from Spain. He says that "we live to fight another day" on the subject of compensation. He understands that governments often can be made to change their view on things and he will be devoting his energies now to obtaining compensation for the people who our kind PM has just apologised to.

[Andy Mac]

To me, saying "sorry" is not about liability, it's about empathy for the worst of our relationship with each other. It's not about guilt, it's about sympathy. It's about healing and moving forward. Not a solution in itself, but a step forward.

Well said, probably sums it up for me.

The big concern now is how child welfare agencies can intercede to save Aboriginal children from an unacceptable domestic situation, the same as can (and should) happen if it was a white family, without the accusation of racism, 'stolen generation' or genocide being brought against them. That can only work if Indigenous people accept one law for all Australians, not select which ones suit them.

Regards,

[Gingermick]

These problems follow from problems like lack of education, opportunity. When people have nothing to do they lose the plot and end up drinking or taking other drugs or even bloomin inhalants. (DAMHIK)
Why isn't someone setting up kangaroo meatworks and tanneries in the bush. And crocodile tanneries too. That is an earner. :oo:

[silentC]

To me, saying "sorry" is not about liability

Mick Dodson is his name. Speaking from Spain:

"Reparation is not complete until that [compensation] has taken place and so long as I have strength in my body, I'll be fighting hard for it."

[Bleedin Thumb]

Is Spain far enough away for Mick Dodson? We should ring NASA and see if theres any seats available.

[Gra]

I read somewhere recently that some bloke had a vision.
"I wish there was a world without conflict, a world at peace

Look what happened to him.....:cool:

[MICKYG]

Now that the sorry bit is out of the way I believe that the working population from kindergarten up will experience paying for something they had no say or part in. There has been a lot of chatter on this forum during the last few days with all sorts of views put forth, quite a lot of them are very good common sense, as well as the element of emotional crap.

There has been name calling, and there has been a display of bigotry and it has been an interesting exercise in what we as a nation believe. I doubt that the words spoken in the parliament today are much more than lipservice. For people to change their ways and to improve their lot in life it must come from within the individual, but there is nothing wrong with extending a helping hand as may now be the case.

I wish the aboriginal people well but living in the past is not the way forward. Sadly the events of today will not do a single thing for those who are being abused, and stuck in a rut because of their situation. A lot of the visitors to Canberra were there to protest the intervention in Northern Territory.

The only thing for certain will be the current parliament will get into the history books for future generations to read and ponder. I guess in twenty or fifty years from now we will still be pandering to the gimme gimme gimme minorities which are springing up all over the country.

Regards Mike

[johnc]

John, I understand many atrocities occured in the early settelment of Australia in particular, Tasmania.

I know this because it did not cost my parents a cent to put me through school and in primary school I received $7 per fornight (pocket money) that doubled to $14 while at high school. I was told this was compensation for the atrocities inflicted on my ancestors.

This does not change for a second what I posted above about Rudds sorry statement that will achieve nothing but division and suffering children well into the future. It literally makes me want to puke at the thought.

I fully agree that this does not make any difference to the suffering of children, and I have probably missunderstood your intent. I am hopeful Rudds speach will be a clearing of the air and not create the division you are worried about. Others baying about compensation does not sit well with me either because I can't see how putting a fist full of dollars in someones pocket will make any difference either. The response has to be community focused.

Your comment about the amount you received at school is interesting because there is a misconception that having some aboriginality gives you easy access to all sorts of welfare payments which is not true. The education supplement you received was no fortune. There are also many regardless of background who are very adept at screwing the system, but they seem to go unnoticed

[Fuzzie]

All humans living today can trace their DNA back to a handful of common individuals http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

Tasmanian aborigines probably differ to Torres Straight islanders only slightly less than they differ to Europeans.

The way I learnt it the Tasmanian aborigines moved into Gondwanaland first and were gradually pushed further south as stronger tribes followed them in. Eventually a European tribe moved in that overpowered even the most powerful aboriginal tribes.

What we have now is a society that is trying to work out how to achieve reasonable equality for all citizens of the country. I'm proud to be part of that rather than being part of a group trying to kill off the neighbouring tribe.

Are Tasmanian aborigines entitled to different treatment to Torres Strait Islanders because their ancestors were here earlier?

The move from the attitudes of 19C genocide to mid 20C integration to 21C reconciliation seems to be moving in the right direction to me. Maybe it is glacially slow but it is promising.

As a person of mostly European heritage I have no thought that returning to some sort of idealized Nordic/Celtic society is going to achieve anything or that returning to the social mores of Victorian England or 50's Australia or anywhere else is a good platform for the future.

We all live in this country on this planet in the present and we will live in the future, the past is gone. An apology is for the past but we HAVE to concentrate on the way forward, there is no way back.

[mic-d]

When I hopped in the car this morning after listening to KR and the start of BN's speech, I had a warm fuzzy feeling. I popped on the ABC radio to hear the rest of BN's speech and there's a racket in the background, After the speech, the commentator explained what had taken place in the (public gallery?) I am disgusted and rather more deflated. On this day of apology, amidst bipartisan support from the parliment, when both sides of parliment are clearly reaching out to heal wounds, I find it repugnant that some should behave in such a small-minded manner. It clearly says to me, that even with this apology, some elements in the indiginous community will just never be happy. I want to ask them, just what the hell are we supposed to do then so you'll be bloody happy?

sucks.

Michael

[silentC]

The education supplement you received was no fortune.
That depends on how old he is. Our whole family lived on about $100pw back when I was at school. $14 a week would have been a king's ransom to me at age 11 :)


Others baying about compensation does not sit well with me either because I can't see how putting a fist full of dollars in someones pocket will make any difference either. The response has to be community focused.
A few people have made assumptions about what Aboriginal people want. Based on all of the reactions to Rudd's speech that I have witnessed so far, what they want is compensation. They view this apology as the first step in that process: not as an end in itself.

[astrid]

Dazzler, the prime minister quoted what you were looking for in his speech at about 9.10 this morning.

I am hopeful that this apology will help us all move on to a better understanding and some positive effects.
I think its appropriate that we start with the children. If they are given a decent opportunity at school from an early age this should have a beneficial flow on to the entire community.
I also think Rudd is spot on in inviting the opposition to be a productive part of this process.
as he said, the issue is too big to play political football with, a very generous and sincere offer i thought.

Maybe this time we'll all get it right.

Astrid

[bitingmidge]

as he said, the issue is too big to play political football with, a very generous and sincere offer i thought.
As indeed was the acceptance of it by the opposition.

Pity the indigenies are only about playing political football.

As Mic-d says, their behaviour was a disgrace, and I didn't even see it.

The time to show disapproval was at an election, and I thought that happened.

Cheers,

P
:p

[silentC]

I think its appropriate that we start with the children.
Yes I thought that was interesting. Kind of flies in the face of some suggestions that they should be allowed to maintain their own culture. So instead of taking them away from their families to assimilate them, we'll force them all to go to pre school and get at them that way. So do they want to join the white man's world, or don't they? I'm confused.

[bitingmidge]

So do they want to join the white man's world, or don't they? I'm confused.

Was it just a year ago that the minister copped a caning for suggesting that all should learn to speak English?

P
:p

[dazzler]

Hi

Watched the broadcast this morning. Hope those it applies to get some closure.

But both Rudd and Nelson need a belt in the mouth. What would possess Rudd, after moving the apology, to bring on a debate about policies that have nothing to do with the apology and then to have Nelson come on and start justifying what occurred.

Watching the crowd you could see the elation in the crowd from Rudds apology turn to sadness once Nelson began to go on about how bad there current situation is. Brendan, i think they know its up the creek mate :rolleyes:.

Rudd also decided to make the apology his big thing in life, four times he said "Today, I .do this, i do that......". What a self promoter.

When Nelson spoke it started out good, I was thinking "Yep, this is good, he's apologising but keeping it in perspective and in context of what occurred" and then he just didnt shut up and i started to feel uncomfortable and in the end his speech soured it somewhat.

Why these two clowns couldnt get together for an hour and agree just to say sorry and move on. Idiots.

[Bleedin Thumb]

I think its appropriate that we start with the children. If they are given a decent opportunity at school from an early age this should have a beneficial flow on to the entire community.



Astrid the aboriginal kids have and are given the opportunity to schooling even in remote areas via school of the air.

Parents (or loving carers) turn children into well balanced adults.

Without the input and discipline of caring parents - having a fully resourced school next door won't do a thing.

Its not up the children to influence the community its the communities responsibility to influence the children.

[woodbe]

Point of order. :)

From what I have seen and heard both personally and through the stinkin media, the problem has not been children's access to education. The problem is that the kids just don't reliably turn up. I think that was one of the things the previous government was threatening to hold welfare etc over.

As you were :)

woodbe.

[silentC]

Yeah and Rudd has just announced that every kid four years of age will be given preschool education. So how's he going to get them to turn up for that? Bribe them with bags of lollies?

[MICKYG]

Woodbe , you are correct on the schooling issue. I have two who are over thirty and I am unaware of any child regardless of colour being deprived a good education. The problem arose exactly as you say, did not want to participate. This applies to the Commonwealth of Australia.

Another firphy as are many of the yarns you hear. There is a good joke under Woodies Jokes "Pollies"

Regards Mike