floor sanding issue

[LeonieB]

HI everyone

Just wondered what your comments were about this:
We had a professoinal sand our floor - new forest red gum.

THe finish is a lovely red smooth look but there are wide - 100 ml - marks from the polishing machine - the polivac - at right angles to the grain. All over the floor about 3-400 ml apart and they dont go away with wetting the floor.

The sander refuses to even look at the floor and says it will be fine to coat. We are sceptical and dont think the product will cover up the marks.

There is also a poor blend between the edging and the main floor.

We have been suggested by a hire shop to go over it with a random orbital sander but the finest grit we can get for this is 100 grit. Tests of this show that the look produced is different - not as finely polished or as deeply red, though it takes away the marks.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

He is not going to come back - he did not even ring me back, after he said he would. So I am looking for what we could do ourselves, unfortunately.

We are grateful for any suggestions.

LeonieB

[johnc]

Leonie, 100 grit is far to coarse, generally you can get up to 400 grit in most hardware stores, you probably want to get out a have a look at other stores or do a ring round, however at this stage I would persist with your original suggestion. You might just give the sander one last call and ask him what was the final grit he used, should help you determine what paper to buy, and remember to go through the grades only you will probably be starting with one of the higher grades anyway.

[China]

Did he buff the the floor if not and you want to do it yourself you can hire floor buffing machines, the use glass paper and scocth bright pads

[LeonieB]

HI
He used 150 grit paper on a polivac machine - I think this is called buffing? though I am not sure.

I could not get anything finer than 100 grit for the random orbital sanding machine.

Thankyou
LeonieB

[Dusty]

I remember twenty years ago when I first started out as a floor sander, there was an older guy working for the company and I got to work with him for the first week.

On the first day he said to me "Never show a fool, or a woman, a half finished job" I laughed, of course.

However, over the years what he said had a ring of truth to it. Here is an example. Early last year, I had a lady ring me wanting me to have a look at a floor someone was doing for her and her partner. She explained to me over the phone that the sanding -to her- looked terrible, that there were unsightly marks everywhere and she was not happy. She also went to great lengths to point out to me, over the phone, that the Plasterer, the Carpenter and the Plumber also thought it was the worst thing they had ever seen.

There was no way, no how, that she was going to let the floor sander back into the house to finish what was obviously bad workmanship.

What she wanted from me was my advice, me to come and fix it for her and for me to point out to this other fellow just how bad he really is.

Instead I had her calm down. I had her tell the other tradesmen to butt out. I had her let the other sander finish off what he had started (this bit was hard as she had made up her mind to hate him).

Anyway, he finished the job. The things she was concerned about, such as, sanding marks from the buffing machine were no longer visible. The difference in the look of the sanding from the edging machine to the main machine was no longer noticeable. In short, all the things she was freaking out about were gone.

So, back to your floor. You have an obligation to let this guy finish what he started.
If, after he says it's completed, the floor looks terrible, then you have every right to complain, not pay, whinge, bitch, moan and kick up a fuss. But not before then.

I know it's a difficult issue, particularly when your pretty well convinced that what he is doing is poor work. But, you have to bear in mind, that he has been willing to fine sand your floor with 150 grit sandpaper and from where I sit, that appears to be someone willing to give you a very fine finish. 150 grit. That's some fine sandpaper right there. Some furniture makers don't even go that fine before applying their coatings. True.

Good luck with this. Hope it all ends well.

[LeonieB]

Hi Dusty
Thank you for your comments. very interesting. I wonder if you remember what product the lady had put on her floor? Was it a polyurethane?

Because we were putting treatex on our floor - ourselves - and the manufacturer says in the instructions a good quality sanding job is needed because treatex shows up all the sanding marks. I rang the rep who said basically it needs to be done better.

And because I had foolishly paid the sander already, I did not have much comeback. I certainly learnt something here. I did not inspect the job till after we had vacummed it - no he did not vacuum it at the end of the job.

Glad to hear that most of the sanding marks are not visible usually.

LeonieB

[Dusty]

OHH, Treatex. Yes. The sanding has to be done to a super fine finish, or in fact, a super, duper fine finish.

Surely the company selling the Treatex have their preferred tradesmen who are well versed in the art of applying this finish and the level of sanding required to produce a decent result. Get back to them and get their opinion.

As for my story. Yep. Polyurethane was the coating used there without any further ado or heart ache.

What you guys are trying to achieve with your floor can look magnificent, provided of course, it's done well. Did the sales rep have any concerns about you doing the finishing yourselves?
This Treatex is a fairly unique product requiring the utmost attention to detail when applying, cutting back and final finishing, often beyond the scope of what most home owners are capable of and are geared up to do.

Anyway, once again, good luck with the project and would dearly love to see some photo's when it's all said and done.

[LeonieB]

HI Dusty
What do you mean by super duper fine finish? Would 180 grit be OK?
Thanks
Leoenie

[Dusty]

It's not so much as to how fine a grit is being used, it's more about the attention to detail.

With the type of finish your looking for, even if there is just a slight sanding mark from the main sander when going with the grain it will show up with the product you've chosen, as a rough bit.
So, it's a case of going over and over it with a fine tooth comb.

Finishing the sanding with 150 or 180 grit with a Polivac is fine, but only if all the sanding marks from the drum sander has been buffed out with 80 grit paper first.

The big mistake I often see here is when people are very eager to get to the super fine sanding with the 150 grit paper but have over looked the steps necessary for the 150 grit to be of any benefit. If there are any sanding lines left from the drum sander the 150 grit Polivac paper simply does not have the cutting power to sand them out. All drum sanding marks and the transition where the edger and the drum sander meet have to be completely removed long before finally buffing with 150 - 180 grit.

I've attached a couple of photo's of a floor done in a similar way to what your planning to finish off your floor with. It has that very fine Matt type finish which looks quite thin on the boards, but has in fact penetrated into the timbers fibers. If it wasn't sanded that well it would of looked pretty ordinary, to say the least. I finished this floor with 80 grit on the Polivac and as I've pointed out, it's more about the attention to detail than anything else.

P.S. I also sanded around the edges with an Orbital sander with 100 grit paper after using the edging sander and the Polivac.

[LeonieB]

HI Dusty
Wow those floors look great. What a wonderful job.
What did you put on it?

We had a timeline to follow so have applied one coat of satin treatex even though the sanding job was not perfect. As you said, some issues of blending the edges with the main floor and a few scratches from both the drum sander and the polivac.

It looks OK but fairly thin - looks like it needs another coat. But also there are some roller marks and I am wondering whether these will sand out when it is sanded between coats?

Mu husband is proposing to sand it by hand between coats with 200 grit paper. But it is 78 square meters!

Also which will cover up a few sanding issues - eg some marks from the drum sander and from the POlivac - and the roller marks better - matt or satin treatex or even gloss? Apparently we can put any of these on top of satin.

Overall the floor looks a bit patchy - is there something specific we can do about that?

I am disappointed in the putty too - its too light - but I guess there isnt anything we can do about that. This was professionally done as well.

Thank you so much for your input Dusty.

LeonieB
PS Will try to post a photo tomorrow.

[ian]

We had a timeline to follow so have applied one coat of satin treatex even though the sanding job was not perfect. for others reading this thread, probably not a good decision

My husband is proposing to sand it by hand between coats with 200 grit paper. But it is 78 square meters!hope he likes sanding!
If he is serious, it will be worth getting a sander and attached dust collector, and probably cost effective to buy rather than rent.


ian

[Dusty]

LB.

Tell hubby to go for it, as far as cutting this floor back by hand. I suggest 180 grit no-fill paper which is the Grey stuff on the shelves at Bunnings and the like.

Have him go over all the overlaps and stop marks first to make sure they get a good going over. Then lightly rub back the rest. It should, provided it's properly dry, sand to a fine powder and he shouldn't have to rub too hard to create that fine powder.

The patchiness should go with the next coat (or two). The putty, if it's Timbermate, will darken a little as more coats go on. (Well, it does for me)

What I do prior to applying the final coat on any floor is after the final vacuum, I go over and over the floors with a Sabco Swiffer, which is a fine micro-fibre dust mop sort of thing (Bunnings-Big W....) And, what this does, is pick up even more of the fine powder from the cut back than what vacuuming does alone, leaving you with a virtually dust free surface to apply the top coat on.

Look forward to some pics.

[LeonieB]

HI all
How do you post a thumbnail - had difficulty getting the reduced picture into an attachment.

Also, has anyone heard of using a texta to darken up putty after sanding back the first coat?

Also the floor was a lovely pink/red color before coating and now it is a red/orange color (not like the samples we did, which were a lovely deep red). Can anything be done to tone down the orange color?

Also are we better off using a satin or a matt treatex to try and hide the defects in sanding and coating that have happened so far?

Thank you very much for your help
LeonieB

[BigCal]

As far as attaching a thumbnail goes, use the paper clip icon, it'll open a little window that will allow you to upload the picture which will then automatically be displayed as a thumbnail in your post... Only tip with this is resize/adjust your images so they are less than 100kb each or they wont upload.

[Dusty]

A texta?? Make sure it's colour fast with the coating, otherwise it will run.

Each sort of coating that we use has it's own unique way of colouring the floor, also, the sample pieces you used initially may be from a completely different batch of timber to what was laid in your home. You are now stuck with that colour. (A re-sand and coat with 2 pac polyurethane would create a much deeper red floor, than the Treatex)

I lean towards the Satin finish, but either should help with the over-laps.

When rolling on the next coat try to do it in a different pattern so that you don't end up with stop - start lines in the same places as this coat that you've already done. Also, try to feather the coating out, not just stop dead with the roller. Tricky to explain. But do your best to lift the roller up as it's moving, rather than rolling - stopping - and lifting the roller. Plus, never give the bit you've done time to start drying out. In other words, tell hubby to get on with it.

Again, good luck.

[LeonieB]

HI Dusty
Thank you for all your help.

What coating did you use for the pictures you posted?

Also, we did samples on a section of our floor insitu, so it was the same batch of timber. We compared water-based polyurethane with treatex and the treatex was a much richer red color and the polyurethane was a brown color. That is one reason why we went for the treatex.

We noticed a similar thing with testing lots of other timber samples. Maybe you were referring to solvent-based polyurethane?

We have noticed a similar color change issue with the slab we coated with treatex (its a window seat). An offcut went a beautiful deep red, but the real thing has gone brown, with a tinge of red. They were coated the same, so I dont understand this.

Thanks LeonieB

[scooter]

Leonie, to upload pics follow what BigCal said above, ie. keep images under 100kb, resize them to around 800x600 so they display OK.

Can do the image editing, resizing, compressing etc in a free program like Irfanview, or similar.


Cheers.....................Sean

[ian]

Also, we did samples on a section of our floor insitu, so it was the same batch of timber. We compared water-based polyurethane with treatex and the treatex was a much richer red color and the polyurethane was a brown color. That is one reason why we went for the treatex.

We noticed a similar thing with testing lots of other timber samples. Maybe you were referring to solvent-based polyurethane?

We have noticed a similar color change issue with the slab we coated with treatex (its a window seat). An offcut went a beautiful deep red, but the real thing has gone brown, with a tinge of red. They were coated the same, so I dont understand this.Leonie
the differences you are seeing could be related to how and how finely the sample was sanded compared to how the floor and slab were sanded.

It's fairly common for the degree of sanding to affect the colour timber goes when a finish is applied.


ian

[Dusty]

As Ian has suggested, the colour variation could in part be due to the amount of stock removal being different between samples and actual floor.

The floors in the above photo's have been coated with polyurethane. The first coat being a fast drying seal, the second coat is two pack polyurethane and the final coal was a low sheen (matt) polyurethane.

I very rarely use anything other than polyurethane.

Here are some other pictures of red type floors similar to what your doing. The gloss ones are the first coats with the Matt ones being the final finish. The timber is Red Ironbark.
This is two coats of 2 pac polyurethane, followed by a single pac low-sheen polyurethane.

Is this the sort of colour & depth you were hoping for?

[LeonieB]

Hi Dusty
Once again beautiful work! Was it a water based or solvent based polyurethane you used? Can you tell us the brand and the particular product? We are looking for something to use on our bottom floor.

Also do you have any contacts with good floor sanders in Brisbane? We are looking for someone to do the bottom floor, sand and coat.

Thanks
LeonieB

[LeonieB]

HI
One more thing - how hard is it to use a polivac if you have not used one before? My husband is considering this for the cutback on the mezzanine that I have discussed previously in this thread. He has sanded about four floors before, but not with a polivac.

However someone said that without railings on the mezzanine it may be a bit dangerous - the machine may try to drive off the edge.

On balance would it produce a much better between coat sanding result than hand sanding or an orbital sander?

Thanks for any thoughts
LeonieB

[Dusty]

Hi Dusty
Once again beautiful work! Was it a water based or solvent based polyurethane you used? Can you tell us the brand and the particular product? We are looking for something to use on our bottom floor.

Also do you have any contacts with good floor sanders in Brisbane? We are looking for someone to do the bottom floor, sand and coat.

Thanks
LeonieB

Solvent based. Polycure AK/BK 2 Pac. Polycure Lo-sheen single pac.

I don't know any one in Brisbane, and I mean not one person, let alone a sander.

If your husband has never used a Polivac, now, (while your half way through a cut back) is NOT the time to start practicing and learning.

Stick with the slow and steady hand sand for this Treatex product.

[BigCal]

Great looking floor in those pics dusty, man you do some great work!

[LeonieB]

HI Dusty
Just a few more questions:
DO you mean hand sand with a block or with a 150 ml handheld orbital sander?

I should add that my husband is very handy and has built our whole house and has sanded and coated four floors previously, but without a polivac.

What is the issue with the polivac - lack of skill causing sanding lines etc, badly balanced hire machine or dangerous in terms of driving off the unrailing-ed edge? Or something else?

DO you think satin treatex might disguise any roller marks and sanding marks better than matt, or show them up even more because of the contrast in sheen?
When you said you leaned towards satin, I wasnt sure of your reasoning.

What technique do you use to apply the treatex - firstly, the step back technique ie apply with roller, then step back and feather it in to the previous section, or secondly, apply onto one section, then apply onto the next section in a forward direction, then roll over the lot in one big roll? Or doesn't this matter a great deal?

Is a Sabco Swish extra going to do the same job as a swiffer? - couldn't get the swiffer.

Thanks for your help
LeonieB

[Extracare]

Leonie

The putty problem is a known issue with treatex. We always go 3 shades dark ( and then think we should have gone 4!!!). A texta will do a great job.

Most of your sanding marks will not disappear under a second coat unfortunately - as Dusty has pointed out - the attention to detail is essential when using the hard wax.

Between coats we usually use a worn screen or a red pad on a polivac - the sanding is all done BEFORE coating. Hubby could try using a red pad on the polivac as it wont try to escape from him and he can move it much slower without taking too much coating off.

As for roller marks - roll the coating out at 45 degrees across a run of 5 boards then run the roller down the full length of the boards to smooth the surface.

Apply the treatex sparingly.

Good luck.

Advice for others - use a treatex recommended sander and get him to complete the whole job - that way he is responsible for the final finish.

[glock40sw]

G'day Leonie.
In Brisbane, Contact D.R. Main Floors.
They are in the book.
They are members of the TFFAQ and also ATFA.

Try them.