Hinge pin door stop - help please [Archive]

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Learner

24th January 2008, 11:25 PM

Help me with installation pictures please.

I want to install a hinge pin door stop to prevent my door opening more than 90 degrees.

I do not want to install a floor door stop because someone may trip over it.

Where can I buy hinge-pin door stop in Melbourne ?

How to install the hinge pin door stop -right opening inwards door?

Are there right and left door versions of hinge pin door stops?

journeyman Mick

24th January 2008, 11:40 PM

Learner

24th January 2008, 11:44 PM

Learner,
never heard of/seen a "hinge pin door stop". Even if they are available I would be wary of fitting one as the door creates an awful lot of leverage on the hinge if you stop it back near the hinges, easily enough to bend the hinge/rip the screws out of the jamb/door/all of the above.

Mick

These are hinge pin door stop pictures. They are used in doors all over USA. But I have no information or pictures on their installation. May be their door hinges in USA are stronger and screws are longer and better

http://hardware.hardwarestore.com/73-463-hinge-pin-door-stops.aspx

mic-d

24th January 2008, 11:55 PM

cool! Never seen them either. There is instruction on the site you linked. You need a removeable hinge pin and the stop fits on the pin. Like Mic said tho, you can generate a lot of leverage with a door and it looks like this type of stop creates a powerful fulcrum on the hinge.

Cheers
Michael

journeyman Mick

25th January 2008, 12:04 AM

Okay, followed the thread. I don't care how strong the jambs are, or what size screws are used, I wouldn't fit them.

Mick

Learner

25th January 2008, 12:13 AM

Okay, followed the thread. I don't care how strong the jambs are, or what size screws are used, I wouldn't fit them.

Mick

How would you limit a 180 degree opening door to 90 degree angle without a floor door stop someone would trip over? I need to limit the door opening to 90 degrees because I have heated towel rails protruding on the wall behind the door in the bathroom.

journeyman Mick

25th January 2008, 10:11 AM

Can you put a stop either on the door or on the wall which is long enough to prevent the door contacting the towel rail? Failing that, how about a door closer which limits the angle of opening.

Mick

joe greiner

26th January 2008, 12:51 AM

Learner

26th January 2008, 01:45 AM

Don't see them around here much anymore, although I haven't looked very close. Like they said, they put a horrendous leverage on the hinge, maybe even enough to wrench the hinge loose from the jamb. How about a rubber bumper placed on the door, exactly where it would contact the framing of the towel rail? If the doorknob hits first, might need to relocate the towel rail.

Joe

If big companies like Stanley make them they must work. Companies like Stanley would do calculations of forces acting on the hinge or they would have mass product recalls.

IMAGINE A DOOR FALLING OFF FROM ITS MOUNTING HINGE ANd CRUSHING A PERSONS FOOT.

STANLEY WOULD BE SUED FOR DESIGNING A PRODUCT THAT CAUSED THIS INJURY

Besides there are hundreds of vendors and brands of this item in the US. So I am going to try them.

How many doors are failing in the USA because of the use of these stops?

Are our door fittings and door quality inferior?

http://hardware.hardwarestore.com/73-463-hinge-pin-door-stops/hinge-pin-door-stop-658890.aspx

http://cgi.ebay.com/Multi-STANLEY-Hinge-Pin-Doorstop-door-stop-brass-finish_W0QQitemZ6062409751QQihZ013QQcategoryZ20593QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQtrksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQcmdZViewItem

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-hinge-pin-door-stops.htm

mic-d

26th January 2008, 08:24 AM

If big companies like Stanley make them they must work. Companies like Stanley would do calculations of forces acting on the hinge or they would have mass product recalls.

IMAGINE A DOOR FALLING OFF FROM ITS MOUNTING HINGE ANd CRUSHING A PERSONS FOOT.

STANLEY WOULD BE SUED FOR DESIGNING A PRODUCT THAT CAUSED THIS INJURY

Besides there are hundreds of vendors and brands of this item in the US. So I am going to try them.

How many doors are failing in the USA because of the use of these stops?

Are our door fittings and door quality inferior?

http://hardware.hardwarestore.com/73-463-hinge-pin-door-stops/hinge-pin-door-stop-658890.aspx

http://cgi.ebay.com/Multi-STANLEY-Hinge-Pin-Doorstop-door-stop-brass-finish_W0QQitemZ6062409751QQihZ013QQcategoryZ20593QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQtrksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQcmdZViewItem

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-hinge-pin-door-stops.htm

Settle down fella, no need to shout, we're just telling you a possible outcome of fitting this to your door. It's simple physics which tells you it must put very large forces on the hinges if you put a fulcrum like that so close to the hinge and have the rest of the door acting as a lever.
You might find years of trouble free service, but alternatively I reckon a boisterous child or an angry teen could work the screws loose pretty quickly.

Michael

Learner

26th January 2008, 09:56 AM

Settle down fella, no need to shout, we're just telling you a possible outcome of fitting this to your door. It's simple physics which tells you it must put very large forces on the hinges if you put a fulcrum like that so close to the hinge and have the rest of the door acting as a lever.
You might find years of trouble free service, but alternatively I reckon a boisterous child or an angry teen could work the screws loose pretty quickly.

Michael

I noticed the forces are distributed by two sided stoppers. Look at the construction.

Draw a diagram explaining the force distribution.

It is not one sided force acting on the hinge. One padded bumper hits the door and other padded bumper hits the external frame

The only problem with hollow core door where one side of the doorstop would possibly punch a hole in the door if it was slammed. I have got this information from discussion forums.

Otherwise it works fine.

http://absupply.net/ives-69-hinge-pin-door-stop-9572.aspx

journeyman Mick

26th January 2008, 10:02 AM

If big companies like Stanley make them they must work......................
Sure, and I'm sure Stanley has never made anything that didn't work well or wasn't a very good idea.:rolleyes:. No one is saying they don't work, we're just saying they're not a good idea.

...........................Companies like Stanley would do calculations of forces acting on the hinge or they would have mass product recalls.....................
Or possibly their marketing department has done their calculations and worked out the profit to risk ratio is favourable.:rolleyes:

Like Mic-D said, simple physics means they're not a good idea. You could get a block of wood and put it in the right spot on a bank vault door, slam it closed and stuff those hinges up. Nothing wrong with the strength of the door or the hinges, just asking them to withstand forces that they are not designed to withstand. Go ahead and fit them and good luck to you.:doh:

Mick

Learner

26th January 2008, 10:09 AM

I noticed the forces are distributed by two sided stoppers. Look at the construction.

Draw a diagram explaining the force distribution.

It is not one sided force acting on the hinge. One padded bumper hits the door and other padded bumper hits the external frame

The only problem with hollow core door where one side of the doorstop would possibly punch a hole in the door if it was slammed. I have got this information from discussion forums.

Otherwise it works fine.

http://absupply.net/ives-69-hinge-pin-door-stop-9572.aspx

Adding to this information the forces appear to to be distributed evenly on the centre of the hinge.

mic-d

26th January 2008, 10:09 AM

I noticed the forces are distributed by two sided stoppers. Look at the construction.

Draw a diagram explaining the force distribution.

It is not one sided force acting on the hinge.

The only problem with hollow core door where one side of the doorstop would possibly punch a hole in the door if it was slammed. I have got this information from discussion forums.

Otherwise it works fine

Sorry to disagree, the force is not "distributed", one stopper sits on the door, the other on the wall, that's a simple fulcrum and it makes a class one lever, with a mechanical advantage of around 10:1 ( assuming the pivot is 75mm from the hinge and the door is 750mm wide). That's a pretty powerful lever and even more powerfull if the stopper is even closer to the hinge. It means that any force applied to the latchside of the door is multiplied by 10 at the hinge.

Cheers
Michael

Groggy

26th January 2008, 10:37 AM

I agree with the fulcrum comments, the door would get loose hinges. A floor mounted door stop can be installed further up the wall or to the top corner of the door where it is out of the way.

I can only recall seeing these fitted to light duty doors, are they really intended for heavier doors?

Learner

26th January 2008, 11:22 AM

These designs are covered by many US patents. The idea and theory has been tested and shown to be solid. Hinges do not fail

example

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4998941.html?highlight=4998941&stemming=on

Groggy

26th January 2008, 11:48 AM

I did a search around but didn't find anything under that name in Oz.

Learner

26th January 2008, 12:39 PM

All that the hinge pin does is act as a pivot point. The forces are distributed on the door and door frame edge or wall.

The bumpers (stoppers) are at the ends of a semicircle or arc. So forces are on the door and door frame edge or wall.

http://absupply.net/images/ives-69-large.jpg

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http://absupply.net/Images/a_delivery.gif

</TD><TD scope=row borderColor=#0 width="94%">Availability: Ships within 2-3 days from receipt of order.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE borderColor=#19598d cellPadding=2 width="100%" bgColor=#155a8d><TBODY><TR><TD width="11%" bgColor=#0d588e height=36>http://absupply.net/images/ives-logo.jpg

</TD><TD width="41%" bgColor=#0d588e>
http://absupply.net/images/draw1.gif

</TD><TD bgColor=#0d588e>Hinge Pin Door Stop

</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#0d588e><TD class=style78 bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=3 height=23><TABLE width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=style34 width="71%">• Door Openings Adjustments: 70° to 100°
• For use on hinged doors where the installation of a standard door stop is not desirable.
• Positive slip proof adjustment.
• Non-marring rubber tips.
• Removable bushings accommodate 1/4" to 5/16" diameter hinge pins.
• Easy installation—only a screwdriver required.
• Made from burnished wrought steel.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Learner

26th January 2008, 01:01 PM

I did a search around but didn't find anything under that name in Oz.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Building-renovation/Fixtures-fittings/auction-136469093.htm

journeyman Mick

26th January 2008, 03:05 PM

Learner,
when a door is slammed shut onto a normal stopper near the end of a door there's roughly equal amounts of force applied to both the stopper and the hinges. With your hinge mounted stopper the stopper will act as the fulcrum point with the hinge as the load (think about lifting something very heavy with a crow bar). This will exert a huge amount of force onto the hinge.

I'm a carpenter by trade and have fitted literally hundreds of doors. Sometimes they need a bit of finessing to get all the margins the same. Often you spring the hinges to make this happen. You grab a punch and sit it between the two leaves of the hinge and gently close the door onto it. This bends the hinge so it sits out from the frame a bit more at that point. If you get over enthusiastic doing this the hinge will bend enough that the door will foul up on the opposite jamb. Your stopper will act in much the same way.

You've obviously made up your mind to fit the things, so don't let us stop you. Just slam the door a few times straight after you fit it - just to prove us wrong. Be sure to post your experiences, preferably with photographic documentation.:q

Mick

journeyman Mick

26th January 2008, 03:12 PM

I did a search around but didn't find anything under that name in Oz.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Building-renovation/Fixtures-fittings/auction-136469093.htm

Learner,
I think you'll find that New Zealand is not part of Australia (yet).

Mick

Dirty Doogie

26th January 2008, 03:53 PM

I encountered those self stopping hinges in the US ages ago. They are only suitable for light weight doors under 15 kg and you have to fix the hinges with 40 mm screws. In the US you can buy heavy hinges with the device or something similiar already fitted. But in a slam swinging situation the device fails regularly.

A normal jamb or floor fixed door stop positioned closer to the door frame would do the job better.

mic-d

26th January 2008, 04:07 PM

ausdesign

26th January 2008, 04:21 PM

I would agree with all the comments.
Which ever way you look at it there will be load on the screws.

At the end of the day, if you can locate the stops locally, for the price I'd give them a go.
The worst case is they'll punch a hole [maybe] in a hollow core or pull the hinge screws.
I think you'll find that the door will eventually end up jambing on the latch side.

Learner

26th January 2008, 05:17 PM

http://www.wipo.int/patentscopedb/en/wads.jsp?IA=US1997020238&LANGUAGE=EN&ID=id00000000505642&VOL=9001&DOC=0008c1&WO=99/020865&WEEK=17/1999&TYPE=A1&DOC_TYPE=PAMPH&PAGE=1

Skew ChiDAMN!!

26th January 2008, 05:31 PM

Hmmm... looking at those, what's to stop you from simply mounting a block of wood to either the door or architrave, maybe with a rubber bumper? If mounted at top and bottom of the door, there'd be no problem with punching holes in hollow core.

It'd look no worse than any of those mechanical contrivances and could be mounted/constructed so that it pulled out of the door/arch. instead of stressing the hinges, in a "slam" situation.

Once hinge screws have pulled free, there are only two real options: drill, plug and rescrew - which I've found isn't as strong as "virgin" screw-holes, or replacing the jamb. Personally, I reckon doing the same repairs to an architrave is easier and maybe cheaper, especially if you go for the replacement option.

Learner

26th January 2008, 05:45 PM

If you carefully study and examine specifications of kitchen cabinet door hinges you will notice that the hinges limit the maximum angle of door opening to just slightly more than 90 degrees

90 Degree Hinge : A hinge that only allows a door to open 90 degrees or perpendicular to the cabinets. Think of a quarter of a pie. These hinges are for mounting on flush-fitting surfaces. They can be used on a section of cabinetry that is recessed beside a wall, an appliance or other cabinets that protrude out further.

journeyman Mick

26th January 2008, 05:59 PM

If you carefully study and examine specifications of kitchen cabinet door hinges you will notice that the hinges limit the maximum angle of door opening to just slightly more than 90 degrees

Your standard "euro" type hinge opens to 110 degrees, however this is limited by the hinge itself so doesn't impose the same type of loads. The doors are also a whole lot lighter. If you try slamming a kitchen door open a few times you'll most likely reef the door off its hinges though.

Mick

Learner

26th January 2008, 06:22 PM

Your standard "euro" type hinge opens to 110 degrees, however this is limited by the hinge itself so doesn't impose the same type of loads. The doors are also a whole lot lighter. If you try slamming a kitchen door open a few times you'll most likely reef the door off its hinges though.

Mick

True its weak. I have seen 90 degree "euro" versions besides the 110 degree "euro" versions

Dirty Doogie

26th January 2008, 07:27 PM

I was a bunnies this arvo and they sell jamb mounted door stops which do exactly the same job.

Learner

6th February 2008, 10:32 PM

I got the hinge stop from ebay. Works like a charm.

God bless America.

Heavy car doors are also hinge stopped or restricted in their angle of opening at the hinge

God bless America:D:2tsup::U

journeyman Mick

7th February 2008, 12:20 AM

I got the hinge stop from ebay. Works like a charm.

God bless America.

Heavy car doors are also hinge stopped or restricted in their angle of opening at the hinge

God bless America:D:2tsup::U

So have you tried slamming it open a few times yet? Please do and post the results.:rolleyes:

Mick

Learner

7th February 2008, 04:30 AM

So have you tried slamming it open a few times yet? Please do and post the results.:rolleyes:

Mick

I put these stops on all hinges of the same door and precisely adjusted them to exactly the same angle. Now the forces are distributed.

I tried a few slams -NO PROBLEM

thesupervisor

7th February 2008, 05:39 PM

could you post a pic of your doors with this fitted just want to see what they look like

Learner

7th February 2008, 08:12 PM

could you post a pic of your doors with this fitted just want to see what they look like

Pictures are coming shortly.

In case you are wondering I could not even find a decent heated towel rail design in Australia.

I had to use an imported New Zealand "SCOPE " brand heated towel rail.

The greatness of America is the range of QUALITY hardware that is available for almost any application.