finishing timber kitchen cupboard doors - need advice ASAP please!

[LeonieB]

Hi everyone
As you may see, we are finishing our recycled timber kitchen at present. I have had lots of good feedback regarding our slab and now I wondered if anyone had any advice on finishing our recycled timber doors? I dont know what species they are - a reddish timber but not ironbark is all I can say.

We would like to keep away from formaldehyde and isocyanate and possibly the petroleum distillates because of the possibility of containing benzene (all these are carcinogenic).

We need a hard wearing product and a satin finish.

So far we are considering satin Treatex, Feast Watson Floor Clear, Sikkens Vloerlak and Intergrain Ultraclear.
We got a sprayed sample of Mirotone single pack polyurethane (3210 is a code for it) and it looks good but has formaldehyde in it, and we considered MIrotone's brushon singel pack but it may have benzene in it.

We have a young family so want to be fairly non-toxic.
Does anyone have any comments on these or any other suggestions?

PS Our door manufacturer said we need to coat them within 5-7 days of manufacture to stop cupping, which puts us at about Tomorrow! So I need feedback ASAP if possible. HOwever we may be able to stretch it a bit perhaps.

Thank you very much in advance
LeonieB

[astrid]

Use whatever you decided to use on the slab.
If you want to stay away from possible carcinogens you are going to have to compromise and be prepared to re finish every year or so and use a pure oil.
Some here have often suggested parafin oil (this is not parafin but is sold as an edible product for constipation i think).
This is not as arduous as it sounds, you simply clean the wood and rub in a new coat of oil when you need to

There is no way you can have the best of both worlds there is no product that is totally non carcinogenic and give a permanent hard wearing finish.

there have been lengthy (and sometimes heated) discussions on this topic on this forum if you search youll find them.Use the search tool on the menu bar .Neil has some advise here, Type in food safe

Good luck, you might cop a bit of flack for daring to want to try to be ecco friendly, just ignor it, its your choice.

In the end its a "compared to what?" debate ie
Raw timber - will look like cr p in 3 weeks
Veg oils- some are more poisonous or carcinogenic than benzines, Gum turps springs to mind and tung oil and there have been suggestions that some edible oils may harbour bacteria.
Regular maintainance required


Pollyeurothane, vapour when drying has low carcinogenic risk, once try risk very small.

Good luck

Astrid:)

[durwood]

No matter what finish you use there will be a tiny risk from the contents of the material as it is applied and as it dries.

Benzine is used as a solvent to dissolve the resin of the paint from a solid to a liquid. Its sole purpose is to allow the painter to apply the paint to the surface once on the surface the benzine (and all the other solvents) evaporate off. Same applies to the polyurethanes, the isocyanate hardener is used to set the resin hard. Its only a problem when you breath the fumes and overspray if you spray so you have to wear a mask. It can only become a problem after its dries if you then sand it dry and inhale the dust. ( one of the reasons they wet rub)

Same goes for all the other dangerous products, take lead for instance. A problem if you spray on paints containing it but not a problem once its is in place and is dry. Except if you then set about chewing on the paint as happens with kids toys. Lead paint is out there on thousands of articles ( houses and motor vehicles ) but its not a problem that requires the government to ban the contact with those products containing it as we don't usually go around chewing the on the weather boards of house or the bonnets of cars. People have been living in houses with lead based paints that were applied in the early 1900's they don't get lead poisoning unless they decide to renovate and madly start dry sanding walls down.

If you want to avoid all the benzine, formaldahide, isocyanate, benzine, xylene, etc products around you won't ever be able to ride in a motor car or live in a house with any furniture or appliances in it.

Whatever finish you decide to apply to your kitchen, do it in a well ventilated area, preferably outside or at least with the windows open and a nice breeze blowing through and leave it to cure or dry for at least a day or longer. Once dry and in use keep the kids from eating the finish and you will be KO.

[Big Shed]

Benzine and benzene are 2 totally different chemicals and should not be confused, see here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzine)

I would be very surprised if any Mirrotone product contains benzene, or indeed any surface coating produced in Australia.

Benzene is a carcinogenic and is mainly used a a chemical intermediate under controlled conditions.

[jerryc]

leonie,

I am a great fan of shellac and use it on many surfaces. To me it would be ideal on the vertical surfaces. It is easy to apply with a rubber. the rubber can be stored indefinitely in a sealed container, so there is no brush clean up, it is a totally natural finish, used to coat pills so must be safe. Can be applied over most other finishes and touch up is sooo! easy. I've said this so often before but I've used it on two vanity units, in the interiors of three yachts and on my kitchen without any trouble. Attached photos show vanity unit and two shots of the kitchen. The area photographed is directly over the cook top and has been there for at least five years. One surface is beginning to show the effects of cooking steam and all I need to do is to get my rubber and some shellac and give it a wipe. I did it recently to the area next to the dish washer and it came up as good as new with no elaborate pre working. So many people try to turn finishing into a dark art, it's not.


Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

[jerryc]

I know you wanted a quick reply and so I did what I could to illustrate my argument. Tomorrow I'll restore the worn surfaces and if possible photograph the work as it progresses.

Jerry


everyone is entitled to my opinion

[astrid]

can she use it on a bench top too?
and will it withstand the heavy use of a young family, Paint, play doh, kids making recipes,playng cars on it.
and doed she have the skill to touch it up?
some of us forget the hard use a kitchen can get and that we can do without thinking what takes years to aquire.
i too am a great fan of shellac, and use wherever practical.
But with a 14yo learning to cook, and a 10 yo boy I would save its beauty until they leave home!

Astrid:)

[jmaxwell]

treatex is a user friendly product its like a wax but harder waring and can be re applied in small areas without striping the whole job to re apply

[jerryc]

Astrid,
The whole thrust of this thread was on a finish for cupboard doors, vertical surfaces. The bench top had already been dealt with as far as I can understand.
As for shellac standing up to abuse I an speak with experience. Normally I don't use it on horizontal surfaces but in my present yacht I have used it on the saloon table. The table has had red wine spilt on it, hot and cold cups and has stood up to it much to my surprise.
In using it I have showed friends the capacity for quick repair by lightly scratching the surface and fixing the damage with one quick rub. So I think it would stand some abuse.

Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

[jerryc]

Astrid,
Sorry I think I missed part of your argument that it takes a long period of time to acquire the skill to apply shellac. My wife helped apply shellac on my previous boat and learned the skill in about an hour. She even ran into a problem of the finish crocodiling and was able to do a pullover with a meth rag which cured the mistake.

Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

[astrid]

Well good for you jerry,
I can only say that maybe you don't have a mum that comes around and uses spray and wipe on your cupboards.

This is not an argument but a considered concern from one mum with small kids, with careless friends to another.

As i tried to gently suggest, maybe you've forgotten the beating young families give to furniture.

I had my kitchen finished in two pac and thoughtless and ignorant tennents innocently wrecked some vertical surfaces with something they sprayed on.

I also note that you said you lightly scratched a surface to demonstrate how easily you can repair it, try a tonka truck with no tyers next time.

I love shellac but would not be so irresponsible as to recommend it to a client with small children in the kitchen.
I also agree that some people like to make a big deal mystery out of it.
Check my post to Anne on the next thread, no there is no mystery ,
but it is different and needs more respect than the average mum is able to give it.

Kind regards
Astrid

[jerryc]

Astrid,
I had restricted my rely on a recommended finish to the requirements requested by Leone, i.e. a non toxic easily applied and repaired finish.
You appear to want a finish that stands up to over enthusiastic mothers, children and knuckle dragging tenants. By your own admission, treatment that even two pack epoxy is unable to withstand. What would be your recommendation to counter ALL the attacks you outlined in your reply and still be environmentally friendly?

You also commented n the fact that I had LIGHTLY scratched the finish to prove my point. Who, in their right mind would heavily score a surface? To do so would damage the wood. Lightly meant I scored the finish, not the wood.

And do you really think I was IRRESPONSIBLE to advocate using shellac.?

I do no more than offer advice, as I hope we all do. It's up to Leone to sift through that advice and make up her own mind, not up to us to attack each other's viewpoint.

Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

[astrid]

My point exactly

Astrid:U

[Toyboy]

My vote on an easy finish would be shellac. I built a complete solid timber kitchen a few years back, and because I had 2 boisterous kids who seemed to always crash into the cupboard doors and a dog who wanted to sticky-beak at everything that was on the counter-top, it was the only choice for me.
It was so easy to maintain and always looked new with a wipe over. When the house was sold with the now 6 year old kitchen, the new owners were impressed with the 'new' kitchen. The bloke who bought the house happens to be a woody also, and a few months back he commented that his friends have commented on his new kitchen as well. It is now 8 years old and apparently still looks new.
It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I am so impressed with shellac, that I am considering starting a new religion. I think I'll call it "The Church of Shellac" and I'll sell little bottles of pre-mixed shellac to the congregation.
I'm going outside to shellac the car and let you know how that goes....I think I might be onto another scam...ooops....idea.:doh:

[jerryc]

My point exactly

Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

[astrid]

Well we all have our opinions and are entitled to them.
as i have said, Im a big fan of shellac myself but in a kitchen, no,
I would personaly go for an oil, that is easier to maintain.If she wants to go non toxic.
But i think Leonie's run away anyway.

Astrid

[LeonieB]

HI everyone
Thank you for all the comments - very helpful.
I know there is white shellac - are there other types and which are you recommending?

What do I need to learn in the hour someone mentioned regarding the skill needed? IN other words, how do you do it?

What was the crocodiling etc?

Is shellac non-toxic and does it yellow the timber over time? Does it make the timber look much darker?

Astrid, I dont want to use what we used on the slab because it is a bit shiny, even the satin version, and darkens the timber a lot.
Thank you
LeonieB

[jerryc]

Leonie,

There are various levels of shellac from a very dark to a white finish. The example I used from my kitchen was the "normal" which is orange shellac. As it's name suggests it does impart a colour, a warm glow which many like. My kitchen is jarrah which is of course a reddish timber and as you can see from my previous attachment the colour of the finish is not unattractive, but taste is something very individual.
To apply the finish I do not use a brush but a rubber (see attachments). The rubber starts with a ball of unmedicated cotton wool, about the size of a cricket ball and a piece of lint free cloth, preferably linen about the size of a man's handkerchief. When folded you will see the rubber finishes with a slight point which is handy for getting into corners.

You will hear some people talk of one pound, two pound mixes which come from the USA. Personally I'm a simple person. When I mix shellac I put the dry flakes into a container and just cover them with meth. If the mix is too dry I add a little more meth. If too wet I throw in a few more flakes.

To charge the rubber I use a squeeze bottle and pour the shellac mix into the back. It has the advantage of being a great filter of any lumps that may be in the mix and also you have great control over the amount you put on the wood. Want more shellac give it a squeeze.. I make up two to three rubbers. The main work rubber, small rubber for awkward spots and a meth rubber which I use as a pull over. Useful for correcting mistakes

I use a light mix because I can take advantage of the quick drying properties of shellac. By the time you've been around once the work is dry and it's possible to put on another coat. On the interior of my present yacht we got six coats on in a morning and the interior of a yacht can be a fiddly place to work. Another advantage of light coats is you have no worries about overlap or tear drops

The first coat I apply by working in circles to make sure the grain is filled. After that I mainly work with the grain.

Don't be afraid to make mistakes. Unlike any other finish shellac is forgiving.
"Crocodiling" is when the surface shrinks and causes fissures similar to crocodile skin. It can result from several causes. On the boat it happened when my wife got over enthusiastic and put too thick a layer on a locker door which was directly in the sun. As it was her first attempt she was horrified until I gave her the pull over meth rubber and explained that the shellac could be reworked and some of the excess would come off on the meth pullover. Both my wife and my daughter mastered the basics in about an hour. If you are at all worried, just grab a piece of wood and practice. I know you will get the hang of it in no time.

If you have any questions don't hesitate to ask. True you'll have more opinions than you can handle but from them you can extract what suits you


Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

[jerryc]

leone,

I mentioned how safe shellac is in one of the submissions above but it's worth repeating as the toxicity problem comes up regularly.
Shellac is used to coat many prescription and general chemist pills.

Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

[astrid]

Leonie
if you check few threads down, you'll see a thread "cedar table" by Anne
I posted baby step instructions here.
Astrid

And yes white shellac is a purer and harder form of shellac and yes you can use it as asealer coat under danish oil. but only one or two coats at most

[jerryc]

Leonie,
My apologies in that I did not mention sanding. Was in too much of a hurry to get further info to you as I know you want to get the job done quickly. What I have found to be effective is to put on two coats with the rubber (remember I use light coats because I find several light coats easier than a lesser number of heavier coats). These first coats seal the surface and raise the grain. These coats are very lightly sanded back with 240 grit paper. I"m only sanding enough to denib the surface. After that I rarely sand at all. Because the coats are light and numerous you quickly develop a feel and the rubber becomes a burnisher, polishing the surface as you go. It's another reason for the meth rubber, which does the same thing as a finishing rubber. (Hope I make myself clear.) The kitchen as you can see was done allowing the grain to show. below is a different approach where I wanted the vanity unit to have a certain amount of gloss. Therefore with this unit I allowed a thicker build up and finished with the meth rubber. The unit has had no polish applied, it is a straight off the rubber finish with no sanding