Cedar table

[anne]

I am a rank amateur with a very old (more than 100 years) cedar table. I have removed the grime and the old finish using methylated spirits and fine steel wool and now need to refinish the top. I do not want to french polish as we use the table as a kitchen table. One recommendation is danish oil followed by beeswax. Is there a better solution?

[astrid]

what you you mean by a better solution?
If you mean a harder finish the your only option is a pollyeurothane.
But this wont give the same old lustre as shellac and danish oil.

its a balence between beauty and practicality.

I've used cabot danish oil(which is 95% sinthetic on all my clients tables.
With reasonable care it lasts well.
you cant put a superheated coffee mug on it, but you shouldnt do that to anything unless its a two pac polly, which will look ugly on a 100yo cedar table.

Astrid

[anne]

Thank you Astrid. I am very nervous about using shellac as I have no idea what to do. Is there a web site or similar where I can get "How to" information?

[Lumber Bunker]

You might want to go with a "Hard Shellac (http://www.lumberbunker.com.au/shopmastery.php?cat1=Finishing)" made by our great hosts, and available in most woodworking stores (such as ours) see here (http://www.lumberbunker.com.au/shopmastery.php?cat1=Finishing).
It's a shellac that is much more durable.

Good Luck.

Steve

[astrid]

Using shellac is not the same as french polishing if thats your worry.
French polishing is a technique used to apply shellac for a super glassier finish and definatly not suitable for a kitchen table.

Shellac can simply be brushed on with a very fine haired brush,
I use a MANICARE face powder brush.
If you decide to use shellac either ordinary or the superior and harder Ubeaut product, ill post some tips.
However, I think that even the Ubeaut white shellac would be unsuitable for a kitchen table (someone please correct me if i'm wrong)

Id go with the cabots danish oil.

Astrid:)
PS do Ubeaut have a wipe on poly?

[Evan Pavlidis]

I am a rank amateur with a very old (more than 100 years) cedar table. I have removed the grime and the old finish using methylated spirits and fine steel wool and now need to refinish the top. I do not want to french polish as we use the table as a kitchen table. One recommendation is danish oil followed by beeswax. Is there a better solution?

Hello Anne,

I would give it 2 coats of thin dewaxed super blonde shellac with a brush sanding very lightly with 2000 grit paper between coats after it is completly dry. The first coat will dry in about 20 minutes. This will act as a sealer. If you go with an oil finish on bare red cedar it will darken too much and obscure the natural color and not look like red cedar at all.
I've done in it in the past and regretted it. I made a large coffee table for a friend of the family using a red cedar slab, applied 2 coats of dewaxed shellac, let dry overnight after the last coat, sanded lightly and then applied a mixture of raw tung oil and orange oil. The ratio is 50/50. I applied 8 coats rubbing in well and allowing 24 hours drying between coats. It came up very well and the red cedar retained its color and it's stunning lustre. Our friend is very happy with the result.
When applying the mixture it is not necessary to flood the piece; just enough to cover the area, leave for about 10-15 minutes and with a clean cloth rub in hard until no mixture remains. Leave for 24 hours and repeat until you are satisfied. The more coats the better.
You can apply a good quality wax after your last oil coat to create some protection and the lustre you are looking for. But do this after 1 week to allow the finish to cure. A slight wet look without a high gloss looks really good on cedar. The good thing about oil and wax is that they are very forgiving; if you scratch your surface you can lightly cut away the affected area with steel wool and reapply the oil blending in with the surround. You cannot do this with polyurethane :no:. I have not used danish on red cedar and cannot comment.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, Evan

[astrid]

this sounds good. but i'd be worried about waxing a table that will be exposed to kitchen wear, id leave the wax off
sorry forgot to mention that if you used DO seal with shellac first,
as i said, cabots DO is not really an oil but wipe on polly dosent darken timber too much like oil and can be re coated

Astrid

[anne]

Thank you Evan and Astrid. Any tips on using shellac would be great.
Cheers
Anne

[astrid]

Applying shellac is pretty simple.
But the way you brush it on is different from paint
PRACTICE THE BRUSH STROKES FIRST on a scrap of smooth timber.
Then my rather muddled instruction will make sense and you'll work it out yourself.


Get a very soft round brush, about 2-3cm I buy face powder brushes from the chemist.
Try to get the MANICARE brand as their glue doesn't disolve in spirits.
soak you brush in meths and remove any loose hairs.
Dry excess meths off the brush
Put about 300ml of your shellac into a wide mouthed jar,
peanut butter jars are good
dip the brush in the shellac so theres enough to wet the brush but no drips.

tips are in italic

shellac will touch dry almost immediatly if you let one stroke dry before you apply the next, youll get a darker line where the two strokes touch.
This is because the first stroke is already dry and you have effectively put 2 coats in a line where the two strokes overlap.

you have to apply it in one long, even stroke from one end of the table to the other, with the grain. flick the brush upward at the end of the stroke or youll get a ridge or bleed back at the end.

because you dont want a double coat at the edge of your first stroke, apply the next stroke slightly overlapping the first, in the other direction.
As the first coat will still be wet (your being quick remember) the second stroke blends with the edge of the first rather than sitting on top of it.
Work your way across the practice piece backwards and forward.
when youve finished this first coat let dry for about an hour.

What im trying to explain is that once you start the first coat, you cant stop mid stroke or in the middle of the table.

If you miss a bit dont go back, leave it to the next coat or immediatly reapply that whole strip.

At the begining of your stroke, dont drag the brush across the edge of the table , better start the stroke a centimeter from the edge and catch the bare spot on the back stroke.

Now get a piece of 400 grit sand paper, cut it in half and rub the two rough sides together this is to knock off any rough grains that might scratch you polish.
using the paper lightly in your fingers, (dont use a sanding block) gently buff the first coat with the grain to knock off any dust or loose brush hairs.

As we aren't french polishing, youll get away with one or two imperfections.

Now off you go on the next coat.

It really Isnt that hard its just getting the knack of the strokes and understanding how the medium works.

DONT USE SHELLAC ON A DAY THAT IS HIGH HUMIDITY OR DAMP

dosent matter on the first two coats but it can react with moisture the while its drying at later stages.

Well I know the guys will shake their heads at my girly instructions.
but I've tried to explain in baby steps.

Any administrators who polish, feel free to edit

good luck

Astrid

[anne]

Astrid thank you very much. I have now put on 2 coats of shellac and it looks great. Now I have to start oiling.

Thank you eveyone for your help. This is a great web site.

Anne

[Evan Pavlidis]

Astrid thank you very much. I have now put on 2 coats of shellac and it looks great. Now I have to start oiling.

Thank you eveyone for your help. This is a great web site.

Anne


Anne, good to hear. Post some pics as you are progressing; we would like to see your results as we don't often see red cedar pieces.

Cheers, Evan

[anne]

Help!

I have put on 6 coats of the tung oil mixture and the surface, which after 4 coats was uniformly glossy, has gone blotchy as if it has soaked in in some places and not in others. What should I do now?:C
Anne

[rsser]

Six coats is really more than is needed.

How long did you leave it btwn coats?

Suggest you leave it to cure for a week and then see.

[MacS]

What look and sheen do you get from using the Hard Shellac. Is it like the Polyurethanes.

To other posters,what is the benefits of using Shellac under danish oil?

When one is evaportive and the other is reactive. Shellac is the softer coating, and as it evaporates as it shrinks downs, whereas, the DO once cured, builds up a to a better base, which builds up a better finish . The DO will probally give better protection for a table that is being used daily to eat on.

I cannot compare DO to the Hard Shellac, as I never used or tested it, maybe some one can answer that question.

[Evan Pavlidis]

Help!

I have put on 6 coats of the tung oil mixture and the surface, which after 4 coats was uniformly glossy, has gone blotchy as if it has soaked in in some places and not in others. What should I do now?:C
Anne


What Ern says Anne. What grit paper did you use to sand back the shellac base? From memory another poster advised you to use 400 grit which is too coarse, and by doing so you probably sanded more in one area than another going to bare timber. If this is the case the oil on bare timber will result in a different tone and can go blotchy. Is the blotchiness visible only in some areas and not others? Only use 1500 or 2000 grit paper to denib after applying the shellac base. Denibbing means to "knock off" the sharp ridges caused by the raising of grain after the shellac has dried. The whole principle behind this is to create a uniform ultra smooth surface to apply the finish of choice. The application of shellac as a base is to prevent blotching and reduce the darkening of oil on wood which can be very prominent on red cedar.

For now, with a clean cloth rub down hard; chances are that the tung oil did not dry properly before subsequent coats were applied.
Wait 2 days and rub down hard with mineral turps, let dry completely and sand lightly along the grain with 2000 grit paper only. Then remove all dust and reapply tung oil mixture, wait 10 minutes and again rub down hard and let dry thoroughly before applying further coats.
Can you specify what tung oil mixture you are using. If using raw tung oil neat, it takes at least 5 days to dry per coat and more to cure.
If you need more help we're here for you.

P.S. It's ok to use a sanding block or pad. You can buy these with a handle from bunnings or an auto parts shop in different sizes.

Cheers, Evan

[astrid]

400 grit if fine as long as used lightly and rubbed together as instructed.
More to the point is what kind of tung oil is being used and how long was it left to dry.
The point of shellac on soft timber is exacty to prevent this happening,
I, think you may have sanded too hard in spots or the tung oil isnt drying.
You should only need about 3 coats max. and should let dry at least 24 hours between coats.
I did suggest cabots Danish Oil not tung oil, but unless the tung oil is pure
as opposed to a the usually commercial product, the effect should be much the same.
Dont worry, as ern says, let it dry for a week and then take another look.
Once its thouroughly dry, you should be able to sand it back and put another coat on.
And I have never seen a professional restorer, and i know a few, to use a sanding block, when cutting back a finish, you cant "feel"
this finish through a block.

Astrid

[Evan Pavlidis]

There are many finishing products on the market that state they are tung oil based but rarely do they contain tung oil. The majority of the product contains poly with driers and oil finish made from plant extracts not necessarily tung. There is only one tung oil and it comes in raw or pure form which does not contain any driers, which explains the long wait for drying. To speed up drying, it is combined with pure orange oil for wood finishing; the more orange oil the quicker the drying time.
Using a sanding block for finishing flat surfaces is a personal preference, and also less tiring for large surfaces when used properly using long strokes. Professionals and non professionals use them; you cannot feel a finish, you can only see it with correct lighting and doing a certain test. I have used this method for many years without any problems and only getting better. :)

[MacS]

I agree with Evan, there are many finishers and repair people that use sanding blocks to keep the sanding flat, it prevents cupping, its also used for sanding fillers, burn in sticks, epoxies, primers, sealers, and clear coats.

Maybe, you ought to give it a try.

[astrid]

may i point out that when restoring an old table, the surface is very often not entirly flat, this is particularly true with australian cedar, which is prone to cupping,or bowing
there are usually at least a few dents etc.
If you use a sanding block, you will sand of the finish more on the raised areas more than the cupped areas.

Also tables of this vintage often have a curved edge. If you use a block here, you will leave a hard line of raw timber at the edge.

By all means, use a block when sanding timber, but not when cutting back polish on an old table

Astrid

[MacS]

When sanding in between polishes or sealers we call that "scuff sanding" its a light hand sanding to remove any nibs, dust, or dry resin particles.

All the sanding machines have a flat pad to keep the surface flat and level, to keep it true to level, the hand cannot do that, a sanding block can.

[ubeaut]

:jacked:Sorry about this slight hijack but might as well get it said whilst it's mentioned elsewhere.


Now get a piece of 400 grit sand paper, cut it in half and rub the two rough sides together this is to knock off any rough grains that might scratch you polish.:huh::?

400 grit if fine as long as used lightly and rubbed together as instructed:hmm:Why on earth would you rub it together. All that does is to give you 2 pieces of blunt abrasive.

If you use really good abrasive paper there won't be any rough grains.

Theory used to be rub 2 x 120 grit together and you get 240 grit, 2x 400 = 800 grit etc. RUBBISH all you get is a heap of useless blunt abrasive. Use the right grit and if you need to make sure there are no rough grains rub it on a bit of timber. It's not cheap so don't waste it. If it costs less than AU$1 it's probably not really good abrasive.

Cheers - Neil :)

[jerryc]

When working on a surface that should be flat and maybe isn't, I always use a light angled across the surface. In fact when final finishing of any flat work I use it. It picks up imperfections far better than the normal vision can and enables you to see whether an area is being oversanded. As to the use of sanding blocks, it has been stated so many times that the use of one means that the abrasive paper lasts longer, but more importantly it gives a better finish. Hand sanding with no support for the abrasive paper often results in uneven sanding, fingers apply a remarkable amount of pressure over a very small area compared with a block I use the small cork sanding blocks and in fact have three of different sizes. The small sanding blocks are a good compromise between hand sanding and a "handled" sander I have a "handled" hand sander but on an old table I would not use it because it lacks "feel", and can result in too much pressure being applied. I know this comment does not apply to "experts", but it is important to let the paper and not pressure do the sanding.


Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

[astrid]

most people do go to the hardwear shop and buy poor quality sandpaper, unless thet are expert finishers that know better.
when i get my high quality stuff, i buy it in bulk and its a 15k trip.

Does Anne know what to buy or where to buy it.?
on balance i think she probably went to the hardwear shop.

Astrid

[jerryc]

Astrid,

Agree with you about using good quality abrasive "paper". I don't use it often but would be interested to know name of your supplier..

Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

[astrid]

Jerry,
The brand is SIA and the supplyer is Magnetic Abraisives,
286 Neerim Rd, Carnegie,Melb
PH 95716811

[jerryc]

astrid,

Oi thank 'ee kindly.


Jerry


Everyone is entitled to my opinion

[ubeaut]

Astrid - And yet again you miss the point.:doh: You may do it, but you should not rub 2 pieces of abrasive together. Even if it's cheap stuff. Waste of time and abrasive.

jerryc - Most paint shops will have good abrasive paper, Hermes, SIA, Norton, 3M, etc. best bet is to go for the Wet n Dry although you should also be able to get really good grade no fil paper from any paint shop that sells to the automotive trade.

Cheers - Neil :U

[jerryc]

Neil,

Thank you for your information. As I said earlier, I do not use very much sandpaper at all, even on finishes. However I hope I'm not a know all.

My philosophy is simple. I'll gather any information I can when it's available, and only offer advice on things I have personally worked on.

Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

[ubeaut]

A good and worthy philosophy Jerry - One more of us should use.

Cheers - Neil :2tsup:

[Evan Pavlidis]

most people do go to the hardwear shop and buy poor quality sandpaper, unless thet are expert finishers that know better.
when i get my high quality stuff, i buy it in bulk and its a 15k trip.

Does Anne know what to buy or where to buy it.?
on balance i think she probably went to the hardwear shop.

Astrid


Anne asked for advise about applying a finish on her table and I responded to her request. The manner in which I responded was according to my experience and positive results. Rubbing 400 grit paper against 400 grit paper doesn't do anything for me; it only stuffs it up. As Neil stated if the paper is of high quality, it will not require to cut back any high spots. You on the other hand state that you use high quality paper and rub it against itself; why?
You can purchase high quality papers in hardware shops, eg, Norton, 3M, Festo, Bosch and also auto parts retailers.
No, I don't know if Anne knows what to buy and where to buy it; that question was not asked by her.

[rsser]

As I understand it grit is a measure of particles per sq. inch.

If that's right, than 400 against 400 isn't going to give you 800 but should break down the cutting edge of some of the particles and so provide something of a 'softer' cut. Doubt that it would be shallower though, with quality paper.

Just thinking out loud here. For myself as there are more notes in the scale I'd be singing a higher one.

[MacS]

If your frugel, you can start saving some of your used sanpaper, and use them for your light scuff sanding.

[rsser]

Well Anne I hope we haven't bamboozled you with all of this :(

Let us know how you go.