installing ceiling fans

[notenoughtoys]

I purchased some ceiling fans to install at home. The sort I bought include a light and are controlled by remote control, I chose these because the salesman told me they are easy to install and simply replace the existing light fitting. The instructions say they need to be wired through an isolation switch (the light switch?) and three wires, active, neutral and earth. The wire running to the lights is obviously two strand with no earth. Is it possible to leave the earth wire off or do I need to get power run through the ceiling to each fan (so much for a simple self installation).

[patty]

Is there an earth at the actual light fitting? if there is you have no problems
You have an Active and Switch wire at your light sw this has nothing to do with the remote control module for the fan!
BY law an earth must be provided at every light fitting if you do nothave an earth you will have to get an Lic Electrician to install

[nev25]

Here we go again

Heres what you do install them your self turn the light on touch the red and the black wires
Electrocute you self and SUE the a*se of the salesman who told you you could install it you're self
BECAUSE YOU CANNOT Legally

Get an electrician

And when the electrician presents the bill to you don't complain about the cost
When Electricians change a light fitting they have to earth the fitting BY LAW this often means a partial rewire

IMO if none of the light fitting are not earthed get the house rewired as I would assume the wiring is old

Then again its your life and your SAFETY and everybody else that enters the house

[Smurf]

I'm a tad puzzled about this no earth to the lights thing. Perhaps it varies by state but I've never come across it here in Tas other than with blatantly obvious DIY jobs using the good ole speaker wire.

Actually, off topic but I've often wondered if any speaker wire actually gets used for connecting speakers. So much seems to fall into the hands of DIY "electricians" wiring houses that I'm surprised there's any left for actually connecting speakers.

[malb]

Actually, off topic but I've often wondered if any speaker wire actually gets used for connecting speakers. So much seems to fall into the hands of DIY "electricians" wiring houses that I'm surprised there's any left for actually connecting speakers.

Not quite an answer to your question smurf, but the lightest cable that i run speakers through is 1.5m2 stranded twin active, I won't even use speaker cable for speakers.

[Ashore]

You Need electrician badly :2tsup:
Mate the three to the fan need to be actice neutral and earth , the fan has to be earthed, otherwise if there is a fault , one touch and your ash.

You have said " The wire running to the lights is obviously two strand with no earth." obviously humm an asumption on your part me thinks , start making asumptions with electricity and you can assume you will get zapped badly , the light fitting should have an active neutral and earth connection if it doesn't then
You Need electrician badly :2tsup:

Are you making the assumption that it is only an active and neutral or as you said two strand because there are only two wires to the switch if so then
You Need electrician badly :2tsup:

A little knowledge is a dangerious thing and when dealing with electricity is as bad as making asumptions or worse a deadly thing
Bottom line
You Need electrician badly :2tsup:

[elkangorito]

He (the OP) didn't reply so maybe he got zapped?

[Dirty Doogie]

Why dont you get double insulated ceiling fans? So many older ie pre 1980's houses only use 2 core on the light curcuit.

Electricians are a sneaky mob - they wont tell you can get double insulated fittings for light circiuts.

[familyguy]

It will work with out an earth but for SAFETY and legal reasons if you change the light fitting you have to run an earth connection to it. If the body of the fan is earthed and an internal fault develops in the fans insulation causing the fan body to become live the fuse and or elcb will trip alerting you that there is a problem. Without an earth the same fault could exist and the fan will operate normally until you get up to change the light globe and zap, it could be fatal, so in this case if you don't know what you're doing get an electrician not only for your own safety but any future owners of the house. There was a time when an earth wasn't included in the wiring for the lights. My parents house circa 1950 is one of these, in fact only one power point in the whole house was earthed. Mom used to complain about getting a tingle from the washing machine so an electrician from Dad's work came checked it out and found only one power point was earthed so from then an extension cord came out on each wash day.

[nev25]

Electricians are a sneaky mob - they wont tell you can get double insulated fittings for light circiuts.

Because the regulation refers to the lighting point not the fitting

I quote Regulation 5.7.3.3 AS/NZ3000:2000 and 5.4.3 AS/NZ3000:2008

" LIGHTING POINTS-A protective earthing conductor , connected to a terminal or suitably insulated and enclosed SHALL be provided at every lighting point including transformers supplying ELV lighting systems"

One regulation I disagree with but as I have stated many times I don't write the regs just obey them

Anyway I don't think I have ever seen Double insulated sweep fans

[Dirty Doogie]

Hi NeV - siemens make a range of remote control ceiling fans double insulated and were available through CETNAJ (but wasnt a standard stock item). The sparkie installed these last year and he was bamboozled as he was from the lights from IKEA. If a fualt occurrs it shuts down and a little led light comes on. There is no access to any transformer or any earth terminal.

What is an ELV fitting?

[nev25]

What is an ELV fitting?


ELV is EXTRA LOW VOLTAGE (less than 50volts ac)

Meaning down lights etc
The transformer must have an earth wire terminated at the transformer even tho there isn't a provision for one.
There is a legal way around this but thats a trade secret

[Dirty Doogie]

So even if there is no connection point on the fitting for an earth ,one still has to be installed "somehow" ? Hmm.

[Smurf]

The thing to realise is that electrical fittings are frequently replaced. Not often do you find a house that's more than a decade old where the power points, light fittings, cooker, hot water and heating / air-con are ALL the originals. Sooner or later something gets changed and in many cases it's a change of type rather than replacing like with like due to wearing out.

Hence regulations for minimum conductor size that in some circumstances exceed what is actually needed today. And likewise having to include and earth even though the equipment installed today might not need it. There's a high chance of these things being needed tomorrow.

Why not just rewire in 10 years time? Because in practice most people won't do it. Faced with the cost of a rewire, they'll just DIY without an earth. From a safety perspective if the earth is there it's more likely to be connected wither professionally or DIY.

ight being installed today is double insulated doesn't mean that the one installed in 10 years time will be. Hence the provision for an earth conductor.

[SilentButDeadly]

I purchased some ceiling fans to install at home. The sort I bought include a light and are controlled by remote control, I chose these because the salesman told me they are easy to install and simply replace the existing light fitting.

Apart from the obvious electricary issues previously mentioned, I'll wager that your friendly salesman didn't point out that in order to be covered by any sort of warranty you MUST get the fans installed by a licenced sparkie.

If you don't......not only will the installation be illegal (and therefore it'll void your home and contents insurance if your self installation manages to burn your house down) but you'll have no technical or financial comeback if the fans fail within the warranty period....and given that ceiling fans (especially cheap ones) are nearly as unreliable as front load washers then you might be needing that warranty...

[solid art]

What's the residential voltage down south? The wiring is 14/2 w/ground or 12/2 w/ground isn't?

[Jacksin]

Apart from the obvious electricary issues previously mentioned, I'll wager that your friendly salesman didn't point out that in order to be covered by any sort of warranty you MUST get the fans installed by a licenced sparkie.

If you don't......not only will the installation be illegal (and therefore it'll void your home and contents insurance if your self installation manages to burn your house down) but you'll have no technical or financial comeback if the fans fail within the warranty period....and given that ceiling fans (especially cheap ones) are nearly as unreliable as front load washers then you might be needing that warranty...

Yes I echo what he said!

Before recently having my air-con installed I got in a sparky to install a wired smoke detector and remove a ceiling fan installed by the previous owner. The sparky couldnt believe the way it was wired (he found an amateurish wiring diagram in the roof) so he stripped it back to the switch and started again PROPERLY.

With lack of insurance etc, risks of fire and electrocution I strongly believe this forum should ban any wiring advice.

[familyguy]

We had a an ELCB fitted some years back and when the power was first turned back on it would trip immediately. The sparkie fitting it, at first couldn't locate the fault, going over the whole house a couple of times pulling plugs left right and centre. Then I mentioned the garage and that's where he found it. The garage was wired by a qualified and licensed electrician, whose main job was as a fireman and on his rest days he moonlighted as a sparkie. I understand that many of them do this.
There are two lights hanging from the centre of the garage one at each end and he had the bright idea to control both with one three core cable using the earth as common neutral and the red and black as the two actives; one for each light. The cable he had used was the old type where the earth wire was bare and a green sleeve was slipped over end at the termination point except here he had neglected to to do this. The earth wire (which was being used as a common neutral) was touching the metal garage frame causing the ELCB to trip. The work was all very with neat cable ties etc and from the ground looked A1,it had worked flawlessly for about 6 yrs. A simple push with screwdriver to clear the frame and all was ok for the time being until I could rewire the light circuit how it should have been done initially. Just because someone is licensed amd qualified it doesn't automatically mean that they will do a good job, there is good and bad in ALL trades. Similarly just because someone is unlicensed it doesn't mean that they are complete idiots and can't follow instructions and do a good neat job.
If someone is determined to DIY then very often there is no stopping them, if they UNDERSTAND what needs to be done and also why it needs to be done there is no reason why they can't do a passable and safe job. If they want to DIY and get the short shift in this forum then they will ask elsewhere until they have the info they think they need, which may even be incorrect.
I think it is better and safer to get correct info from people who know. Once they have the full story they might decide its not as simple as they initialy thought and too hard and so hand it over to a licensed tradesman.
In my game (electronics) I regularly get asked how do I fix this ? how do I do that? I never say go see a technician, I always answer to the best of my ability ending with 'if you're even a little bit unsure find your self a technician'. Much of what I have learned over the years was given to me freely by others who knew. Information should be shared not kept secret. Bad unsafe work is done by people who don't know what they are doing, if they know and understand what they are doing then the only cause of bad work is slackness which everyone is capable of.
Hope this does'n't start a long discussion, its only my opinion.

[Jacksin]

Your argument doesn't wash with me and following your theory Familyguy there would be no need to licence anyone. It would be open slather for all.

Anyone could get advice and when it all went pear shaped they could say "it wasnt my fault, that what he told me". Trades are protected for a reason and with electrical it is to stop wannabees killing themselves or others. Thats why we have Compliance Certificates.

Perhaps if you consider members who offer advice on this forum that cause harm to the DIYer could be relieved of a lot of money through litigation (sued)? And I doubt if typing a waiver would cover them.

[silentC]

I think it is better and safer to get correct info from people who know. Once they have the full story they might decide its not as simple as they initialy thought and too hard and so hand it over to a licensed tradesman.
The reason they should hand it over to a licensed tradesman is not because it seems too hard, it's because it is against the law. Dead simple reasoning I reckon.


I never say go see a technician, I always answer to the best of my ability ending with 'if you're even a little bit unsure find your self a technician'.
That's fine if what they are proposing to do is difficult but still legal.

[familyguy]

My post was only my opinion nothing else, I'm not advocating law breaking or open slather.

Here's a quote from my earlier post in this thread 'get an electrician not only for your own safety but any future owners of the house'

But I do believe that the DIYers deserves a better answer than 'get a sparkie'. To many people this is like a red rag to a bull and makes them even more determined to prove you wrong, it doesn't take much time with google to find sites such as doityourself.com and selfhelpandmore.com one of which which has full tutorials on just about all domestic wiring projects including a complete house rewire. Being illegal will not stop them from having a go, most untrained DIYers have a go because they think its easy, explaining what's involved may make the DIYer stop and think that there is more involved than they thought. No amount 'get a sparkie' or 'its illegal' will stop the determined DIYer. People like this are usually driven by their wallets and just don't want to spend the money on a sparkie, nothing you say will stop them.

And yes delving into the inards of a valve amp running 550v ht is legal.

[silentC]

I'm not advocating law breaking
Well, strictly speaking you are. You're advocating encouraging people to do their own wiring, which is breaking the law.


I do believe that the DIYers deserves a better answer than 'get a sparkie'.
There are so many problems with this approach that I don't know where to start. How does the poster know you, as the advice giver, know what you are talking about? How do you know he's competent to follow your instructions? How do you know whether or not there are factors at his site that need to be taken into account? Is the existing wiring at his site safe? Will you take any responsibility if the advice you give is wrong and it causes damage or injury?

I disagree with your statement. I believe the only responsible answer you can give to these questions is "get a sparkie".

[anawanahuanana]

Hey Silent. Whilst I respect your opinion greatly (and the advice you give which is first rate) I do have to agree with familyguy on this one. I really don't want this to turn into another thread about why you should or shouldn't do your own wiring (which it probably will anyway and I'm probably just perpetuating it). I know we've had these discussions before too!
Right now in my garage I have a powerpoint in 1 corner. I want to power some tools in the opposite corner. I'd normally just run an extension lead across the floor but as this project will take me a few days, to reduce the chances of me, or someone else tripping over the cable, I'd like to clip it to the wall to keep it out of the way. What clips should I use on standard Gyprock?
Now, are you going to tell me to call a sparky (or 15 to try and find one desperate enough for the 15 minutes work, which may say something about the quality of his/her workmanship) as per another thread where it needs to be installed by a licensed guy as it's now fixed wiring? Seriously?:o
Professional electricians read these forums. If someone gives dud advice, the chances are that it will be jumped on quickly. Even if they are not willing to give the correct advice, I'm sure they would say "this is incorrect and if you do it blah blah blah will happen".

If you've done 65 km/h in a 60 zone you've broken the law and endangered yourself and others. The traffic report telling drivers where the radars are is helping people to break the law and get away with it. If they don't tell me there is a radar and I get caught by it, can I sue them for not giving me the correct information? Is it their fault or mine that I broke the law and suffered the consequenses?

I would never advocate actively encouraging people to break the law with DIY wiring, but to answer a question by someone who is going to do it regardless is more responsible that sitting back and saying "well I think he'll burn his house down, but as I haven't told him anything, I'll sleep easy tonight":no:

[silentC]

I appreciate the argument that, given people are going to do it anyway, we should give them the best advice so they at least do it properly. We treat our kids like that: you shouldn't drink but if you're going to, don't mix your drinks and make sure you eat first (advice from my Mum when I was 16). Sends a mixed message doesn't it? You shouldn't do it, but here's how to do it properly. Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

I reckon it's either a law or it isn't and if it is, it should be respected on a public forum like this, regardless of how we feel about it.

Then there's the whole question about whether or not the person you're giving advice to is competent to follow it. You can tell by some of the questions asked that some of these people should not be allowed near a 12v Christmas tree light, let alone a 240v installation. Add to that the fact that this is a public forum and anyone could be reading it. Yes I know that the information is out there if you want it - but why should we add to it?

I just think that the cons outweigh the pros.

[anawanahuanana]

I do agree with you to a certain extent. Trouble is, there would be a lot less posts if we were to go by the letter of the law here!

"I want to lift up my toilet and put a new one, exactly the same, down in the same place" - Don't you dare. Have to call a plumber incase you somehow put sewage in the stormwater.

"I want to duct my rangehood through the roof" - Sorry, call a roof plumber. And while you're at it, better call an electrician to install the rangehood. Unless the builder insists it's his job. Then get him round.

"I want to paint around my light switches and pull them forward slightly to get a good finish" - Sorry, call an electrician.

"My tap is making a funny noise" - Sorry, call a plumber.

"There's water sitting in my Telstra pit" - Don't dare drain it out, better call Telstra.

Where does it end?
Anyway, like you say those are the rules. I just think it's short sighted of the legislators to think that just because they say it's illegal, that people won't do it. :doh:

All the best.

[silentC]

Trouble is, there would be a lot less posts if we were to go by the letter of the law here!
True. I suppose at the end of the day, we all have to make up our own minds about what is acceptable and what isn't. I'm no goody two shoes by a long shot - but I'll tell you one thing: I've certainly found myself stopping and thinking about the ramifications of things I post a lot more in recent years than I did when I first joined up. I've done things in the past that are illegal - including speeding :) - and I'm not naive enough to believe that just because something is illegal, people wont do it. There was a time when I might have bragged about it or encouraged people to give it a go themselves. Not any more :no:

[elkangorito]

I do believe that the OP is not located in Australia but in the USA. As a result, all references to Australian Wiring Rules & licensing are redundant. Also, the US electrical system is a little more complicated than the Australian (European) electrical system.

[silentC]

Didn't realise that. Oh well, he can do what he wants then!

[Simomatra]

As has been said you need a licensed electrician to fir it up for you and yes you do need the earth as they are saying.

You also need a switch wire for the light to be independent from the fan so you need a switch wire for the fan a switch wire for the light a a common neutral and the earth wire

remember on flash and your ash and insurance cover does not extend to home done electrics. far cheaper to pay the electrician

[elkangorito]

As has been said you need a licensed electrician to fir it up for you and yes you do need the earth as they are saying.

It is not mandatory for people to use licensed electricians for domestic electrical work in the USA.