Is this normal business tactic

[Toolin Around]

I was going to volunteer at a very large organization, I still would like to but... They demand that you sign a bunch of waivers to be part of the volunteer program, no biggy. Most have to do with confidentiality and and ownership of media materials that you may end up in...

Now here's the but. I get to the waiver that says I have to agree that they, the organization, will not be held liable for any injury of any kind that may befall me even if they are directly at fault either through their or any of their employees negligence. And that I have no work place protection of any kind... The waiver goes onto say I need to take responsibility for my own actions and take steps to avoid accidents. If I'm not mistaken accidents are not something you see coming and therefore you can't always take appropriate action to avoid them, hence the reason they're called accidents...

I ask the coordinator about this and the answers given were vague at best. I.e. there is a public liability that the volunteers are covered under, though it's not mentioned in any of the waivers I'm to sign... So I ask for details - which the coordinator has none. They have no idea what it covers or anything really...

Is this normal and or even legal to not cover someone especially in such a large organization especially if they're at fault.

[BobR]

A bit hard to comment on this one without all the information (not even a bush lawyer). You might end up finding that the public liability covers everyone except the volunteers. It is my understanding that an entity is not able to contract it's way out of any legal responsibility that it may have under various legislation. If it worries you, you might want to get a copy of the PL policy and take advice. Good luck.

[bitingmidge]

It is my understanding that an entity is not able to contract it's way out of any legal responsibility that it may have under various legislation. If it worries you, you might want to get a copy of the PL policy and take advice. Good luck.

That's my understanding too.

My guess is that it's a shock strategy to cut down on false or menial claims. "I cut my finger here and couldn't work for a month" sort of stuff, but in reality there's cover in place.

I don't think they can contract out of it, but they can certainly bluff their way, and it certainly gets the point across that you have to be careful!

People are quite extraordinary when it comes to this sort of thing. A few years ago, we had a number of (false) Professional Negligence claims lodged by clients who just didn't want to pay us. We'd get about three of these a year.

Because each one cost us an excess once the insurer started to defend them, we got jack of it. Even though not one of them was settled in the client's favour, we still had to pay the costs.

We reduced our PI insurance, but advised every new client that we had no cover, however they could have cover on their project for $x (whatever the premium was). Not one client chose to pay, all believed we had no insurance. We never received a claim after that.

Perhaps it's the same sort of logic?

People will tend to claim if they think there's something in it. You still need to check though, in case they're not blufffing :oo:.

Cheers,

P

[Groggy]

One thing of interest, my basic understanding of the law is that you CANNOT waiver any responsibilities under the law. In other words, if they are at fault they cannot escape liability with a waiver. I'd be interested in a proper legal opinion on this one.

[Wood Butcher]

Something to note about them alledgedly not covering "workplace" accidents. The QLD Government changed the name of the legislation from Workplace health & safety to Occupational Health & Safety specifically to covers those who aren't "working". This means that all volunteers are definately covered by this act.

Therefore if you have an accident even while you are volunteering and it is deemed that it was because of the fault of the organisation or related persons then they are liable for damages. They would have to have insurance against this but as Peter suggested are most likely bluffing to avoid potential claims.

[Wood Borer]

My advice is tell them to go jump. If they started to lose their volunteers they may start acting responsibly.

Goodness gracious, you are the one prepared to give your time, your expertise and your energy and they want to treat you like a sucker.

I am a volunteer in several organisations and I gladly give my time etc but I do expect the organisations to be responsible in the off chance that something went wrong.

Find another organisation to volunteer your time but an organisation who won't turn their back on you when you might need a bit of help. This mob sounds like a greedy take take take organisation.

[Sturdee]

I do volunteering with the local Men's shed which is run on a proper basis and has the necessary insurances for its volunteer workers.

As part of joining this program I had to go through a number of induction courses, including one on volunteering itself that may be of benefit to you.

This was adapted from Volunteering Victoria website (http://www.volunteeringvictoria.com.au/) which under their FAQs states that as a volunteer you are not covered by WorkCover so you should ask if they have both Public Liability (mentioning volunteers) and personal accident insurance for volunteers.

So it seems quite likely that the organisation doesn't cover its volunteers and that's also the reason why Centrelink has to approve volunteer organisations before they will allow their clients to do voluntary work for such organisations.

Although the link is for Victoria and your state may be different it will be worthwhile reading.

Peter.

[journeyman Mick]

Matt,
under Qld Occupational Heath and Safety legislation volunteers are workers and covered against injuries sustained in the course of their duties. Note also that if an employer doesn't pay workcover premiums that you will still be covered, they'll just get a huge fine if/when you make a claim. Don't take my word for it, ring 1300 369 915 and ask them.:wink:

Mick

PS if you did your building industry general safety induction (blue card) and were paying atttention you'd know that a volunteer is still classed as a worker.:D

[bitingmidge]

PS if you did your building industry general safety induction (blue card) and were paying atttention you'd know that a volunteer is still classed as a worker.:D

He can't afford to pay attention!
:D:D:D


P

[Calm]

One thing of interest, my basic understanding of the law is that you CANNOT waiver any responsibilities under the law. In other words, if they are at fault they cannot escape liability with a waiver. I'd be interested in a proper legal opinion on this one.

I agree with Greg you cant under any circumstance sign away the right to claim for negligence by any one. Like others say find someone who appreciates your assistance.

The person who is not answering your questions is probably on $60,000+ per year and telling everyone he is a volunteer.

There are plenty out there that appreciate your help just find one of them instead.

Good luck and pat yourself on the back for being willing to help.

[echnidna]

I also believe that they cannot abrogate their legal responsibilitiues and that you would win in a court of law

BUT.

I wouldn't bother doing any volunteeer work for any organisation with that lousy attitude.
Who knows what corners they will cut that may lead to an injury sometime.
Tellem to make like a spud and get stuffed.

What sort of volunteer work would you like to do?

[journeyman Mick]

Matt,
I'm sure your local rural fire brigade could use a hand.:2tsup:

Mick

[Calm]

My mother born 1929 does a lot of work at the Op shop and they are always looking for someone to glue chairs up or fix things that with a bit of TLC can be sold again. They wont make you sign a disclaimer and they appreciate what you do.

[AlexS]

It may not be the organisation that is at fault, but their insurance company who is insisting that they get volunteers to sign such a waiver (even though it is probably invalid). Find another organisation that appreciates your efforts, and slip a copy of the waiver to your local polly and the department that administers OH&S. No point in keeping a dog and barking yourself.

[astrid]

It's usualy their legal people and insurance companies that put this rubbish in.
Mainly to prevent bogus and frivolous claims.
If you want to do work for this particular organisation, just cross out the bits that you dont agree with and initial them.
they will usually accept this,
You cant sign away your rights in legislation.
I recently was asked to sign an agreement witha temp agency that gave them permission to reveal to prospective employers.
My race and religion, political affiliations, union membership and sex..ual preferences( a good book and a glass of red):U
I just crossed it all out and pointed out that this was illegal.

I wouldnt want to work for such a company anyway but so far they,ve said zip.

Astrid

[Eli]

Slightly related and maybe of interest on this topic. My last career in California, I was a union worker. In California, you can't usually sue your primary employer for a huge list of workplace injuries. I had about a hundred employers a year, all under a common agreement.

They got together and created a set of qualification courses under the name "Safety Passport training". Ostensibly this was to enhance the worker's safety by having more informed working staff. But everybody was 100% convinced it was for the purpose of shifting liability. Same theory, they were mentally creating a situation where a worker would be less likely to bring successful suit because they officially should have known what constituted safe working conditions, so if they were injured, it had to have been their fault.:doh:

Chiselers.

[q9]

Now here's the but. I get to the waiver that says I have to agree that they, the organization, will not be held liable for any injury of any kind that may befall me even if they are directly at fault either through their or any of their employees negligence. And that I have no work place protection of any kind... The waiver goes onto say I need to take responsibility for my own actions and take steps to avoid accidents.

The wording of that document renders it useless to the organisation in the case that you would have to bring a claim against them. They cannot sidestep OH&S legislation. Whether they believe it or not, the responsibility is on them to provide a safe workplace, just as much as you have the responsibility to report incidents and potential hazards to them for action.

Queensland law is very specific on this, and it includes anyone working on any worksite, whether you are paid or not, and whether you are an independent contractor or employed directly by the company or not, and even includes members of the public.

In effect, this type of document is aimed squarely at psychology, not law. As mentioned, they can't get you to waive your rights under the appropriate legislation (even if you do sign it it is unenforceable!), they are simply trying to make you think that you have done so.

[jow104]

Toolin around.

It sounds like a hospital voluntry driving position?

[OLDPHART]

Used to work (voluntarily) for a charity org.they give you nothing, fell down back step,and injured my leg ,no compo.no nothing,bad luck about that, be more careful.Told them where to put it after that.:(

[Pusser]

My wife works in workrs compensation insurance and I showed her the thread. Her observations are:

a. you cannot contract out of workers compensation liability.
b. you are entitled to be paid loss of earnings for an injury (ie if you worked for three days and volunteered for two and were injured while volunteering you would be entitled to the three days a week wages lost.
c. none of the above applies if the work is outside Australia
d. journey claims are no longer allowed (ie trips to and from work) so in these circumstances you would also be on your own.

[Wood Borer]

Whether or not it has no legal binding what sort of mongrel low life organisation would write such a thing?

Whether it is psychological or to make volunteers think they have no comeback in the case of an injury etc it sounds very shonky to me. It is a reflection of the scum running the organisation.

Here you are volunteering and the organisation is trying to trick you. They should be tar and feathered and publicly disgraced. They are un-Australian.

Like Mick said, join your local volunteer Fire Fighting organisation. They will give you training, safety equipment the opportunity to meet locals and the satisfaction you are helping your community in a very clear cut fundamental way - saving their lives. They also don't try to deny you your rights of compensation if something goes wrong.

[Toolin Around]

Toolin around.

It sounds like a hospital voluntry driving position?

It's a native animal hospital on sunshine coast. I'm not too fussed with those that own the place or those that manage it but I like the work the rest of those that work there are trying to accomplish. I'd go somewhere else but there are no other places that I'm aware of on the sunshine coast that are close to me (Caloundra) so this is it for now.

[Toolin Around]

Whether or not it has no legal binding what sort of mongrel low life organisation would write such a thing?

Whether it is psychological or to make volunteers think they have no comeback in the case of an injury etc it sounds very shonky to me. It is a reflection of the scum running the organisation.

Here you are volunteering and the organisation is trying to trick you. They should be tar and feathered and publicly disgraced. They are un-Australian.

Like Mick said, join your local volunteer Fire Fighting organisation. They will give you training, safety equipment the opportunity to meet locals and the satisfaction you are helping your community in a very clear cut fundamental way - saving their lives. They also don't try to deny you your rights of compensation if something goes wrong.

I agree totally dishonesty like that is something I have a hard time accepting in people. As of monday I'm going to confirm with QLD OH&S and a lawyer that they can't pull this sort of bull shyte. I would have walked immediately if it wasn't for the staff that are truely trying to make a difference.

THANKYOU ALL for your imput.

[jow104]

Yes toolin around I smelt the taste of hospital on your posting.

If there is driving involved, think of the size of damages that could be involved such as a car accident. Millions these days. So the insurance company usually (in the UK) whack the cost of the claim back to the drivers own insurance, for voluntry drivers.

[q9]

d. journey claims are no longer allowed (ie trips to and from work) so in these circumstances you would also be on your own.

Not the case in Queensland. Trips are still covered.

[astrid]

Seems a shame to walk away from something you want to do, just because the org is scared sh''itless that someone will sue.
Check out the law with the local workcover authority and get one of their "legal advice to employers" brochures or whatever they have that points out the rights of volunteers.

When you feel satisfied that its all bluff, Photocopy their silly document with the brochure attached, sign it with a rider that its subject to the conditions on the brochure.

We are all getting a bit paranoid these days, best way to fight this crap is to ignore it.

Astrid

[rhancock]

Until a year or so ago, I used to be Queensland Volunteer Services Manager for a major, ie global charity, so part of my job was to write those forms you've been asked to sign.

Unfortunately I'm not going to give you advice, as I'm not a lawyer and the law changes too fast - I had a legal department to advise me!

I was amazed by the level of misinformation floating around community organisations of every size about issues like this. Generally organisations like this are run by a few people trying their hardest to do the best they can, but generally without the time or skills to properly deal with issues like liability for volunteers.

Volunteering Queensland (http://www.volqld.org.au/) is the peak body for volunteers and volunteer employing organisations, and they can give information to you about this issue. It might also be worth getting the organisation to talk to them too.

PM me if you'd like a contact at VQ - I'd go straight to the CEO and then work downwards.

Here's (http://www.volqld.org.au/information_resources/workhealthsafety.shtml)a page about workplace health and safety for volunteers - its written as advice for volunteer employing organisations.

At the end of the day, it is not possible to sign away any of your rights, so if you are covered, then you are covered, whatever you sign.

Maybe they are just trying to get you to understand that you have a duty to pay attention to your own health and safety.

You could also ask them whether they got legal advice on the forms, and whether they are members of Volunteering Queensland.

Please don't let this stop you from volunteering!

[astrid]

excellent advice rhancock:2tsup::2tsup:
Astrid

[rod@plasterbrok]

I successfully took action against a Go-Kart track even after signing a waiver. They were knowingly using faulty stub axels that collapsed frequenty. Except it collapsed on the quickest part of the track flinging the Kart into an exposed steel pole. :(

I had some pretty bad injuries and their negligence caused the accident, they had no argument!

So it is very correct to say that you cannot contract away your right to sue or claim against negligence.

Cheers

Rod

[echnidna]

An relevant section of Rhancocks link states

A person who conducts a business or undertaking has an obligation to ensure the workplace health and safety of each person who performs a work activity for the purposes of the business or undertaking (s.29A).

The Act does not define 'work' or 'work activity'. The Macquarie Dictionary (3rd Ed) defines work very broadly as "exertion directed to produce or accomplish something."

That being said, caring for native animals can be quite hazardous.
Even koalas can rip you wide open and more noticeable hazardous animals like Death Adders and Salties

So some form of income protection really is justifiable

[Wood Butcher]

Bob,

The Act (at least in QLD) does define workplace and what a worker is (especially relevant is the last line)


A workplace is any place where work is, or is to be,
performed by—
(a) a worker; or
(b) a person conducting a business or undertaking.

Who is a worker
(1) A person is a worker if the person does work, other than under
a contract for services, for or at the direction of an employer.
(2) A person may be a worker even though the person is not paid
for work done by the person.

Had to study all this at Tafe a couple of years ago for work. At last it came in handy:p