Flared Fittings For Plumbing

[Gooner]

Out of interest sake, is it considered good practice to use flared fittings to connect copper pipes that run behind the wall?

I can easily get some flared fittings and pipe flaring gizmo. I was wondering if this is a good way to go. Seems like plumbers always seem to go for silver soldering, or something similar. I am wondering if there is a good practical reason for this besides cost.

Thanks.

[journeyman Mick]

It is definitely not good practice to use compression or flared fittings where they cannot be accessed. Not sure if it is a requirement or not, I'm sure one of the plumbers can advise. BTW, flared fittings aren't generally (ever?) used. Compression fittings which utilise a copper or nylon olive are more usual. Compression fittings may need tightening to take up leaks over time which a soldered join definitely won't.

Mick

[Barry_White]

Most applications i've seen flared fittings for is in fuel lines and maybe gas lines. When installing oil heaters we always used flared fittings.

As Mick says I certainly wouldn't be putting them in concealed walls an water lines usually only use the copper or nylon olives but certainly not in the wall.

With flared fittings you can only use annealed soft copper. You can't use hard drawn copper because it is to hard to flare. Like Mick says solder is the way to go.

[Gooner]

Thanks guys..

The reason why I ask is that I thought that this manual suggested that I can.

http://www.copper.com.au/uploaddir/documents/CDA_Prof_Plumbing_Skills.pdf

Looking at it closer, it is allowed for gas pipes.

[Rossluck]

Good link Gooner, thanks.

[bricks]

Thanks guys..

The reason why I ask is that I thought that this manual suggested that I can.

http://www.copper.com.au/uploaddir/documents/CDA_Prof_Plumbing_Skills.pdf

Looking at it closer, it is allowed for gas pipes.


Your not allowed to use any mechanical joint's in a position where they cant be inspected/ maintained. In walls is a definate no-no, the only time you can use them is if the pipe system or product you are installing requires them.

[Gooner]

Just one final note on this thread...

I have had much experience using both flared and compression fittings, but always in an application where leaking is not critical.

I have compared flared fittings with compression fittings for copper water pipes and I have personally found that flared fittings seem to be far superior to compression fittings for reliability. Especially when working with annealed copper. (When it comes to compression fittings, the nylon olives seem to out-perform the copper olives as well).

I find that it is easy to get a small leak if a pipe connected using a compression fitting is bent, knocked, or generally stressed at the joint. The same is not so true with flared fittings.

I have gone with soldered joints for all connections in the work I am doing, but if I had to have "mechanical joints" in the wall I would opt for flared fittings hands down.

I am wondering if anyone else finds this to be true.

[wonderplumb]

I generally only use flared fittings on gas work, I try to avoid using olives and kinco nuts wherever possible. Nylon out performing copper olives????
I have never seen a copper olive let go, or split with age or simply deteriorate with age. As for in a wall, never, flared or not.

[Gooner]

As for in a wall, never, flared or not.

What about if installing a shower mixer? Need some kind of joint in the wall for this.

I guess you could solder the joints when doing this as well, but if something does (and probably will) go wrong with the mixer in the future I would hate to be the one who goes to remove it to find it has been brazed in.

[wonderplumb]

Thats where I hate shower and bath mixers, especially mudded into a brick wall! They typically come with a tapered female thread in the bodies, which I usually use hemp or just teflon, both with stagg or similar. I made the mistake once of sweating the No3's into one one day, pressure tested the installation, no worries, couple of weeks later done fit out and commissioned everything, sweet, two months later get a call from the builder, go there and remove the trim kit, turns out the body had a flaw in the casting and organised to get a rep from the company out there. I meet him out there, we look at it and he says, "Yep its a flaw in the casting but you soldered the connections so now its your problem".
Ended up having to remove four 600x300 tiles, which broke, replace the mixer with an identical one, re-sheet the hole, get a waterproofer in, buy tiles, get a tiler in etc. all at my expense:((:((:((
The mixer alone was almost $600, trade!

[bricks]

I use a brazing bush and copper or a plastic tube to male thread.

[wonderplumb]

Yeah I make up No3's with elbows and tails then screw them into the body using usually teflon and loctite 506 paste, still lets the joint move a little under expansion but has the added security of the paste. Havent had a drama since. But I still dont like them!!

[juan]

Yeah I make up No3's with elbows and tails then screw them into the body using usually teflon and loctite 506 paste, still lets the joint move a little under expansion but has the added security of the paste. Havent had a drama since.My plumber did not use teflon tape but just applied some paste from a red squeeze bottle (German product I think) to the threads. He just moved the loose fitting back and forth in the thread quite a bit then tightened it up a little. It set like a rock. He stuffed up on one fitting and tried to undo it without success. Hope I never need to remove anything. He said it can be undone but I reckon it would need to go in a big vice to hold it.

[Gooner]

Well sometime soon I will have to put in the shower mixer. (Yes I got a mixer.) When I bought it I started wondering if I made the right choice as if something does go wrong or leak, it may cause me problems.

I have decided I will put some elbows into the mixer using teflon and stagg. (At work we use some Loctite 577 thread sealer. I wonder it that would work better?) From there I think I will use flanged fittings to connect to main pipes.

I something does go wrong my plan is to knock out the plaster on the other side of the wall, which is a bedroom, rather than knock out tiles and disrupt the waterprofing, etc.

I still have time to change my mind and change the mixer for "normal" taps. Hmmmm.. something tells me I should.

Wonderplumb.. what was the mixer company that gave you grief about the faulty mixer? Why were you left responsible after he admited it was a problem with their casting nregardless of the fact that you brazed the connections?

[wonderplumb]

577 might be the stuff, ill have to have a look, as long as its ok for potable water. The mixer was some fancy italian thing not sure of the exact name but can find out. If you read the information supplied with the mixer they will tell you not to solder fittings into the body, as it voids warranty, regardless!

Juan, I havent really heard anything good about that red sealer, blokes here tend to stay away from it and use the yellow Loxeal. The reason I dont use a hard setting sealer is I believe that under normal conditions with expansion etc. it may crack rather than move with the brass. Especially when a mixer is secured so well (or should be ) in a wall.
But thats just my personal opinion.

[Gooner]

577 might be the stuff, ill have to have a look, as long as its ok for potable water.


This site http://loctite.com.au/int_henkel/loctite_au/binarydata/pdf/0439screen.pdf (page 8) makes it sound like the right stuff for the job... I may give it a go.

Loctite 577
Recommended for all coarse metal threads. Suitable for applications at low temperatures requiring fast cure, e.g. outdoor plant maintenance.
Sydney Water Board Approval Number 95/00043.
Gas; Approved by AGA. Approval Number 4787 to a maximum pressure rating of 2600kPa.
WRC approval for use with potable water.

[wonderplumb]

567 it is mate, had a look today. I usually just ask my local supplier for a tube of loctite and he knows what I mean most times......."yeah, the ???? in the white tube"..................