Installation of Sash Window Frames

[pwaite]

Hiya - and a belated Happy New Year -

I'm just about to commence work on renovating our first house. We bought a 1920's weatherboard which underwent a faux brick cladding/aluminium makeover sometime in the 60's or 70's. The cladding will be removed by a licensed asbestos remover. I've purchase two identical double sash windows (see attached photos) and plan to pull out the aluminium windows in the front and install them. Should I be hiring a carpenter - or is this something very doable for a newbie? Any suggestions on how I should go about it?
All advice gratefully received.
Cheers,
P

[OBBob]

Hi There P

I'm sure you can do it if you are willing. The big question is what is the size difference between the original widows and your new sash windows? If the new ones are larger then there is a bit more involved.

Just an after though too. The new ones look quite good from teh pic ... but if they need any work like sash cords or new pain or fittings, do that first. It will make your life sooo much easier. :)

[pwaite]

Thanks OBBob. The new windows are slightly smaller than the aluminium windows as I figured they would be easier to install. They have been purchased from a reputable salvage firm - the sash cords have been replaced and they're in good working order. So is there an installation procedure I should follow? Are there requirements under the building code re installation of windows?
Cheers,
P

[OBBob]

Hi P

There are probably better people here to answer this. I'm not aware of specific fixing requirements under the code, that would generally be from the manufacuter ... but I guess he's dead! :) That said, the new windows I purchased for my extension did not come wirth fixing instructions.

Others can shoot me down if I'm off track ... but I would
- remove the aluminum window
- nail a couple of temporary slats to the front of the window so that it doesn't fall right through the openning when you lift it up (I'm sure you have already worked out that they are damn heavy :))
- insert the new window and pack it so that it is plumb and sqare and firm against the surrounding studs
- nail through window frame into supporting studs through areas that will not impact on the sash mechanics
- fit the architraves, again being sure not to use nails that will protrude into the channel that the sash weight runs through

Hope this helps.

[chrisp]

... and a bit of flashing probably wouldn't go astray:)

[OBBob]

Whoops ... good point!

[pwaite]

Thanks again - some good pointers there. Does the flashing just need to go along the top? Does it simply need to be nailed into the underside of the frame Should it protrude out beyond the weatherboards?
Cheers,
P

[Tool-Horder]

My first impression is that you will have great fun installing them in weatherboard house. From what I can see in the photo it has been designed for a brick house. The sill is cut wrong for a weatherboard building. The sill length should be about 25mm shorter than inside and outside linings where it butts up against stud allowing for 25mm overlap of front and inside lining to fasten to stud. The outer sill length (horn) should be approx 50 ->75mm longer than outside lining allowing for width of architrave and usually about 25mm past that. The outside linings which have no paint on them have been totally covered when installed which to me also suggests brick. On Brick they are virtually installed from inside to out and usually have a quad to seal against brick.Whereas on thimber they install outside to inside. They should still be able to be installed without too much trouble but you will have to bodgey the sill, which is the worst possible place to bodgey as it cops the most water. See attachment for usual window design.

As for Flashing
Top Best ... from inside head to outside window (finish under arcitrave)
Top Alternate 1 ... between head and weatherboard to outside window (finish under arcitrave)
Top Alternate 2 ... This one is that bad I probably shouldn't even mention it. Very ugly and usually only done by a butcher when windows have been installed as afterthought. Under wheatherboard one lap up from window and finish overtop of architrave. (Shuddering just at the thought)

Sides ... A little optional. Some people dont do sides and rely on the architrave to protect. I was taught to do it and believe it should be done. Underneath Top flashing, between stud and weatherboard and finish to outside window (finish under arcitrave)

Bot ... From inside sill to outside weatherboard, under side flashings.

Basically you start from the bottom up with installing flashings.

[pwaite]

Crikey Tool-Horder - I had no idea! Would your recommendation be that I try and find two sash windows designed for a weatherboard house? If I do a bodgey then there is a risk of leakage.

[Tool-Horder]

Crikey Tool-Horder - I had no idea! Would your recommendation be that I try and find two sash windows designed for a weatherboard house? If I do a bodgey then there is a risk of leakage.

Leakage not a prob ..... Rotting sills biggest problem. You will have to come up with a way to join onto the sill right where water tend to lay. Veeeeeery good recipie for rot. I cannot think af a successful method of doing this of hand from what I can see in the image. Can you post a more detailed image of where the sill and frame join? Both from the front, side and back. It might help. As you have already invested in the frames I wouldn't say scrap the idea just yet.

[OBBob]

Hi There

TH has a good point, which I hadn't noted. However I think you could make them work with a bit of screwing around. The one thing I noticed is that is a pretty well protected area by the verandah, so surely even the dring rain would struggle to get into that window?

Maybe that would help in terms of what is required to make them work?

[Tool-Horder]

Hi There

TH has a good point, which I hadn't noted. However I think you could make them work with a bit of screwing around. The one thing I noticed is that is a pretty well protected area by the verandah, so surely even the dring rain would struggle to get into that window?

Maybe that would help in terms of what is required to make them work?

The main verandah which is where I assume the second one is being installed will offer reasonable protection depending on width of verandah and direction it is facing. My front verendah is 1800 wide facing south and offers no protection at all during rain at sill level. The Awning at front of house only appears to have 2 rows of tiles which would mean approx 700mm. This would offer little more protection than a standard eve.

[SilentButDeadly]

Hey P

You are doing pretty much what we are doing to the same vintage house with much the same asbestos/aluminium reno...although yours appears to be in better nick to begin with...

Our sash windows came from a weatherboard house and aren't in brilliant nick paintwise but they fine in themselves.......and they were cheap.

One thing that hasn't yet been mentioned but we have experienced with our place is what happened to the wall framing when the original windows were pulled out and the aluminium ones fitted. In our case, the new windows were all different sizes and some were obviously far larger than the windows they replaced.......and I can assure one and all that whom so ever did the job over 25 years back DIDN'T follow the building code!! In quite a few cases there is no lintel to speak of - and where there is it ain't big enough. Also the lack of significant cross bracing in the old house frame has meant that when some dill cut a really big hole in it....it didn't do much for structural stability.

Given the completeness of our reno these issues are should be easy and straightforward to fix but it ain't like we though of it until we did a bit of poking about.

I suggest you have a bit of a squiz (lift a sheet or two around the window) to see what wonders have been done to the frame to get the aluminium window in there before you remove the window and find yourself in a "What the %$^& do I do now?!" moment...

[pwaite]

TH, OB, SPD - many thanks. Yes - one of the windows is well protected from the elements; the other is not. And I will certainly pull off some cladding to inspect the structural framing around the window - just to check if someone did a bodge job when installing aluminium frames.

TH - in terms of getting more detailed photos the only problem is that I'm currently in East Timor, and won't return to Australia until June. The windows are sitting in the garage, and the house is currently unoccupied - so I will ask a family member to head over to photograph them. We are returning to Australia after almost 7 years away, and my wife is due to have our second child in mid-July. So it's going to be rather a busy month in the lead up to the birth!

SPD - where did you get your windows from? And on a different note, have you removed the cladding off - if so, where did you source the weatherboards and baseboards required to replace the bottom metre or so which would have been removed at the time the cladding was installed?

Cheers all,
P

[SilentButDeadly]

SPD - where did you get your windows from? And on a different note, have you removed the cladding off - if so, where did you source the weatherboards and baseboards required to replace the bottom metre or so which would have been removed at the time the cladding was installed?

Hah!! On the first question......through some generous friends

As for the second.....regrettably we don't have weatherboards...we just have another layer of fibro :C And both layers are coming off and being replaced with new corrugated iron.

That said.....weatherboards aren't too hard to come by if you ask nicely of a builder wreckers.....whom you choose depends on where your house is. If you are in Vic then I maybe able to help

[pwaite]

SBD - Yes I'm in Melbourne. Preston, to be exact. So any advice you may be able to provide would be well appreciated.
Cheers,
P

[SilentButDeadly]

If you are prepared and able to get out of Melbourne then I can recommend visiting the Brennan's Timberyard & Renovator's Warehouse complex in Bendigo http://www.renovatorswarehouse.com.au/

[gofastman]

If you are prepared and able to get out of Melbourne then I can recommend visiting the Brennan's Timberyard & Renovator's Warehouse complex in Bendigo http://www.renovatorswarehouse.com.au/

Sorry if this post is in the wrong place and I don't wish to hijack the thread. I didn't know of any other way to ask a somewhat related question.

Is anyone aware of a similar outlet in Sydney?

Thanks

[Mech Engineer]

I had reproduction windows made to replace windows that were not original. I also had to replace a stud wall that had being removed to open up the veranda. See pics below.

Also your house deserves better windows than the ones you plan to put in. Its the front of your home so it has the greatest impact on the appeal of the home. Research your type of home to find the window style that you should be putting in. The window you plan to put in look like bedroom windows.

Regards,
Mech Engineer

[SilentButDeadly]

Sorry if this post is in the wrong place and I don't wish to hijack the thread. I didn't know of any other way to ask a somewhat related question.

Is anyone aware of a similar outlet in Sydney?

Thanks

Not really the same but you could do a lot worse than have a yarn to these lads http://www.woodworkers.com.au/website/index.php

Having now done up one of seven second hand double hung sash windows then I would suggest that a repro may be the way to go if it suits....

A houst lot of used windows might cost you between two and three grand and then you will find they need refurbishment.

Ours are in pretty good nick compared to what I've seen yet they still needed stripping, re-puttying, painting plus all eight of the sprial balances needed replacing and (on this first window) two panes were replaced. So the bill for this one window is approaching three hundred dollars....not including the tens of hours we've put into it.

However, given that they were free........we can cope! But if I'd already forked out three grand...I might be a little disconsolate...but given a repo double hung sash window might cost about a grand new then who knows?