japan black floor disaster

[Luisa]

We recently had our new tas oak floors in the kitchen/living area stained with Feast Watson Japan Black. The floorer followed the instructions by sealing with shellac (french polish) before the final coat using a tung oil based sealant (all feast watson products).

The finish is now peeling off! With every slight knock a bubble forms and the shellac peels off.

The floorer is going to strip it all back and start again but I am petrified the same will happen. I've since heard about this happening to others - apparently black japan is not recommended for high traffic areas.

I love the look of black floors but I want a hard wearing finish - I have three kids and a dog!

Any suggestions for an alternive stain/seal/finish??

[Gaza]

is it an old floor, if so just use black stain then have 2 coats of 2 pac poly over that.

tung oil should not be used in high traffic areas.

[Luisa]

Thanks Gaza - floors are new. Feast Watson say that an inbetween coat of shellac is required. Is this not the case with two pack?

[Luisa]

Thanks Gaza - floors are new. Feast Watson say that an inbetween coat of shellac is required. Is this not the case with two pack?
Thanks Gaza - floors are new. Feast Watson say that an inbetween coat of shellac is required. Is this not the case with two pack?

[Gaza]

being a new floor i would not recommed using 2 pac poly but there is very good water based polyurthanes that can be used.

if staining the following process occurs
- rough sand
- fine sand
- application of stain (usually feastwatson proof tint with a stain base)
- light buff with polisher
- application of one top coat (i perfer waterbased poly 2 part. ie toby aquamax commerical this is made by feastwaston as well)
- light buff with polisher
- application of top coat.

my recommdation is to conact feastwaston next week ask for a commerical floor coatings rep and speak to them.

sounds like there is major rejection has occured.

no matter what you are doing it needs to be striped back to raw timber.

[Luisa]

Thanks Gaza -

[MacS]

Is the Black Japan a Paint or a Stain.

Was it allowed to throughly dry before the Tung oil was applied?

Brushing Polyurathane is commonly used as a single component coating for floors. Do a search for polyurethane for floors, many use this coating

You could use the the Poly as the sealer for the first coat, thin it down 50% with White Spirits.

Then follow the directions on the can.

Poly, is more durable and chemnical resistant the tung oil finishes.

Good Luck

[Gaza]

You could use the the Poly as the sealer for the first coat, thin it down 50% with White Spirits.


The major brands sell a sealer product commonly know as rapid seal.

sovent based polys are not recommed in Aus due to the changes in mouiter content in the timber floors which dont let them expand and contract. "edge bonding" occurs where boards get glued together.

waterbased floor coatings dont have same problem with edge bonding.

the tung oil refered to as a floor coating is not 100% tung oil it is blend which contains some traces of tung oil, it is more a modifed poly.

[MacS]

Gaza,

That makes sense in some areas, what about the rest of the country.

Polyurethane, both the single and the 2K are the most popular floor coating over here. In fact we have a hybrid that is a water base polyurethane that is very popular now.

[durwood]

I think you could bet money if you redo the floor using the same method you will get the same result. I think the proceedure would be a bit risky on a piece of furniture let alone a floor.

You didn't answer MacS's question whether the Black Japan was a paint or a stain. As it is being suggested you seal it off with shellac I would guess its a varnish not a wood stain. If this is so the shellac is being used to seal it off as the Tung oil is likely to attack the BJ.

Shellac is a good sealer as its thinned with metho which isn't a strong solvent so it will sit on top of the BJ without attacking it but it also has poor adhesion to it as the solvent doesn't key into the surface. Its probably the last thing you need on a floor.

Shellac is also a lousy finish especially if it strikes heat or sunlight. So if the sun can contact the floor or someone puts a hot cup onto it, it will probably react and you will have a mark or worse. The tung oil isnt going to adhere well to the shellac either so all up you are getting three different finishes not used normally with each other and the end result has to be second rate. In industry shellac or any sealer is a cheap or last ditch effort when applying a finish. The end product is always going to inferior than a proper application method.

If it was my floor and the timber was not so new it was suspect of being not properly seasoned I would stain with a proper wood stain ( I assume you want the timber to be black with the grain still showing not just a solid black floor ) and then seal it with a polyurethane either water or solvent based. Another method that could be also used is adding some black polyurethane to clear and see if I can get the black effect I want and then top coat it with straight clear. That way all the finish will be a hard wearing finish with no possibility of peeling or anything else.

Wattyl still make and recommend Estapol, the 7008 2 pack finish has been a proven coating for over 30 years though they also have a water based clear but other brands of paint have similar good products.

A lot of people like the Black Japan wood effect but the same result can be obtained with numerous other black pigmented products with far better serviceability properties.

[Dusty]

I think you could bet money if you redo the floor using the same method you will get the same result. I think the proceedure would be a bit risky on a piece of furniture let alone a floor.

You didn't answer MacS's question whether the Black Japan was a paint or a stain. As it is being suggested you seal it off with shellac I would guess its a varnish not a wood stain. If this is so the shellac is being used to seal it off as the Tung oil is likely to attack the BJ.

Shellac is a good sealer as its thinned with metho which isn't a strong solvent so it will sit on top of the BJ without attacking it but it also has poor adhesion to it as the solvent doesn't key into the surface. Its probably the last thing you need on a floor.

Shellac is also a lousy finish especially if it strikes heat or sunlight. So if the sun can contact the floor or someone puts a hot cup onto it, it will probably react and you will have a mark or worse. The tung oil isnt going to adhere well to the shellac either so all up you are getting three different finishes not used normally with each other and the end result has to be second rate. In industry shellac or any sealer is a cheap or last ditch effort when applying a finish. The end product is always going to inferior than a proper application method.

If it was my floor and the timber was not so new it was suspect of being not properly seasoned I would stain with a proper wood stain ( I assume you want the timber to be black with the grain still showing not just a solid black floor ) and then seal it with a polyurethane either water or solvent based. Another method that could be also used is adding some black polyurethane to clear and see if I can get the black effect I want and then top coat it with straight clear. That way all the finish will be a hard wearing finish with no possibility of peeling or anything else.

Wattyl still make and recommend Estapol, the 7008 2 pack finish has been a proven coating for over 30 years though they also have a water based clear but other brands of paint have similar good products.

A lot of people like the Black Japan wood effect but the same result can be obtained with numerous other black pigmented products with far better serviceability properties.

See, this guy's onto it. Well done.

[Luisa]

You are spot on Durwood - nothing is sticking !! Black japan is a bitumen/tar based product - it is neither pigment nor varnish. It was used a lot in Victorian times- generally around the edges of a room, as a rug would be in the middle. I'm taking your advice - ditching the black japan idea ( i was after a solid black colour, but it's not worth it!) - and going with a regular wood stain - I'll try to get something as dark as possible, and seal with a poly finish. Thanks for all the advice and comments everyone!

[Gaza]

did the floor sander apply the "black japan".

why did they not know that it would not work.

stain gets the same look as the black japan as i said before, i perfer apply the stain then apply poly not mix the stain into the poly but apply stain then wipping off is more labour than just tinting the clear coat.

[durwood]

Luisa,

As you are after a solid black colour why not just apply black polyurethane.

Same paint but pigmented to be a true black finish, if you use clear over anything you always run the risk of wearing through the clear to the underlying colour.

Just use black and you have to wear down to the wood.

Polyurethane is a commonly used finish (its the toughest paint available) where ever tough finish is required such as aircraft, boats, etc. Our local cement mixer firm uses it exclusevely on the concrete trucks as it lasts many times longer than any other finish under the harsh conditions its put under.

[MacS]

I agree, colored Black Poly is the way to go. Its the most durable of the single component coatings.

Not, every supplier has black poly in stock, but many will add the black pigmented colorant into the clear poly, and aggatate them together to make up a Black Polyurethane coating.

Good Luck

[durwood]

Sorry,

I should have been a bit more precise:

I meant 2 pack polyurethane. The hardener will cure the paint regardless. So it will be rock hard to walk on or to reappply another coat.

Get actual black polyurethane, adding pigment to clear will not give as good a coverage if mixed in the maximum proportion allowed, and if overdone will decrease the servicability of the finish.

2 part Polyurethane is also great to apply it brushes/ rolls/etc easily.

I can't see you will have much trouble finding a supplier, if you do I'm sure someone in your area from the forum will be able to point you in the right direction.

[MacS]

I think some consideration should be given to the coating that he is going to use on the floor.

This floor has probably expanded and contracted many times over the years, and most likely is still doing that, the 2 pack coatings are very hard and once cured they do not expand and contract, and they are known to crack and lift on certain woods and in different situations like in this case, where there are seperate boards making up the floor.

In many cases the most durable and chemical resistant coatings are not the answer, this just maybe one of those cases.

I would thnk twice, and finish once.

MacS

[durwood]

Luisa originally posted that the floors were brand new. our weather doesn't have the extremes that the USA has from freezing snow to heatwave though it does get hot and cold especially in Melbourne so movement is not so great. I have friends in the States who's house has to be kept heated in the winter even though they don't live in it because of the freezing problems, that is something no one in Australia ever has to consider.

You can not stop any wood product from expanding and contraction at joints or faults and you have to live with the results of that. A hard serviceable finish like two pack polyurethane is extremely scratch resistant which is why its the choise of finishes on floors which are subject to high traffic.

If a floor timber is going to shrink any great amount no finish will be able to prevent the crack from forming.

Even paints which have flexing agents added to them to make them more elastic ( such as those used on plastics) still fail when the substrate cracks or shrinks and adding these decreases the hardness of the paint surface.

No matter how hard the paint may be it still may be damaged if the timber itself is soft. It will help in providing stength to the timber but enough pressure and it will fail. Most timber floor get marks on them especially if you drop something hard or woman wear stilletto heals.

I'm sure Luisa has considered this when choosing black as it will show marks probably more that any other colour but - thems the breaks. All you can do is weigh all the pros and cons and make a decision. even if we all have a different opinion.

[Gaza]

Luisa originally posted that the floors were brand new. our weather doesn't have the extremes that the USA has from freezing snow to heatwave though it does get hot and cold especially in Melbourne so movement is not so great. I have friends in the States who's house has to be kept heated in the winter even though they don't live in it because of the freezing problems, that is something no one in Australia ever has to consider.

You can not stop any wood product from expanding and contraction at joints or faults and you have to live with the results of that. A hard serviceable finish like two pack polyurethane is extremely scratch resistant which is why its the choise of finishes on floors which are subject to high traffic.

If a floor timber is going to shrink any great amount no finish will be able to prevent the crack from forming.

Even paints which have flexing agents added to them to make them more elastic ( such as those used on plastics) still fail when the substrate cracks or shrinks and adding these decreases the hardness of the paint surface.

No matter how hard the paint may be it still may be damaged if the timber itself is soft. It will help in providing stength to the timber but enough pressure and it will fail. Most timber floor get marks on them especially if you drop something hard or woman wear stilletto heals.

I'm sure Luisa has considered this when choosing black as it will show marks probably more that any other colour but - thems the breaks. All you can do is weigh all the pros and cons and make a decision. even if we all have a different opinion.

no timber manufacter in australia will recommend using 2 pac poly on new timber floors.

the US has differnt fixing methods, differnt timbers and sub floors the flooring is laid on, plus vapour barrier behind there wall lining. That is why 2 pac poly is used over there more.

here is the timber indsurty fixing manaul which states http://www.timber.net.au/documents/downloads/FWPRDC_Flooring_Manual.pdf

Page 14
PROPERTIES OF COATING SYSTEMS (table)
Under poly

May edge bond boards#.


# Edge bonding relates to the finish acting as an adhesive and bonding board edges together. When board shrinkage occurs, this can
result in wide irregularly spaced gaps at board edges or splitting of boards.

boral timber flooring

http://www.boral.com.au/timberflooring/maintenance.asp?AUD=homeGarden_TimberFlooring&site=Boral
says

* Boral Timber does not recommend polyurethane sealants because in some situations bonding may occur between boards which can result in a "clumping" of boards with irregular, large more noticeable gaps between random groups of boards, e.g. every fifth or sixth board

Timber flooring is not a concrete truck and your comprasson of the use polyurthane finish is not approiate.

[Gaza]

Black stain on a floor looks great, we did an foyer of an office building last year.

the stain was feastwaston mopped on and wiped off by hand.

3 coats of toby aquamax water based was then appiled.

still looks good today and has constant traffic inclduing high heals.

[Gaza]

This floor is new blackbutt

stain is a custom mix which contains black, floor is coated with two coats of bona mega watebased.

[MacS]

It was just a thought that was worth mentioning.

Two pack coatings are great coatings, but like all coatings they have their place.