aqueous amonia and dry japan

[stef1611]

Hi everyone,

I have been looking for a while for aqueous amonia in order to fume some furniture I have recently made. I am also after some dry japan that I'll use to make my own stains (I need to colour match a table to some other furniture in the room). So far I have been unsuccessful in my quest. Would anyone have any idea where I can find these products? I live in the Parramatta area (NSW). THanx a bunch.
Best
Steph

[echnidna]

try a commercial cleaning supplies for the ammonia,
it usually only comes in 20 litre drums

[MacS]

Household ammonia will do the work, any supermarket or general store has ammonia its a cleaning agent.

Stef, you are going to have to make up "colour samples" before you start your project, water can be added to the ammonia to lighten its color.

Try a paint store, or and arts and craft shops for the colourants. If you post a photo of the color you want to stain the piece, I might be able to tell you what Japan colors you will need to buy to make up the stain.

BTW - Japan colours come in a paste, its the Fresco colours that are the dry powders.

MacS

[stef1611]

Hi Macs and Bob,

Thanx so much for your input. Just a quick reply about that though: I was reading a book that said basically that one should not use household amonia because teh concentration of amonia is not high enough. Is there any truth in there? I guess that I'd just need to leave it longer... How about cloudy amonia?
Macs, you got me confused there, do you mean to say that you need to put some colours in the amonia beforehand? THe reason I ask is that the book I am reading does not make mention of that and seems to imply that the length of time the wood is exposed to amonia gives the colour. I don't know what to think about that. When I was referring to Japan drier, I was thinking about this drier you put in turp when you make your own stain. I had no idea there were several colours of that.... Anyway I am a bit confused with all that cause I am only starting this whole thing, beforehand I used to only finish with either oil or french polish and that's it. But I am kin on learning !!! I may have more questions soon
THank you guys and happy new year to you.
Cheers
Steph

[Chesand]

Steph
Ask your local pharmacy for strong ammonia solution - used to be called 880 ammonia. May not be cheap but is certainly strong.
Hope that helps

[MacS]

Steph,

Fuming is very dangerous, its the first thing you need to know about fuming.

The household ammonia will work, I have been using it for years. Regardless, if you are going to build a plastic tent, or do the fuming in sealed box, you will find that ammonia even the household ammonia is very powerfull and can make you very sick. I want to warn you, that you that you better know what your doing and what your getting yourself into fuming adds color to certain woods, in many cases you can use stains to match these colors without fuming.

Photo shows the original woods colour, the samples with the ammonia brushed on, and then clear coated.

The attached photo of some fumed samples that I did with household bleach, you will find that some woods fume better them other in the before and after shots. I have an article that is at a magazine right now, that I will send to you offline, if you send me an e-mail.

I suggest that you do some more reading before you start your project.

MacS

[MacS]

Steph,

Here is the answer to your questions, I thought it was better for to me to tell you a little about the "dangers" of Ammonia, even the household kind which is very important for you to know.

Steph, NO. you put nothing in the ammonia.

Yes, the time and the strenght of the ammonia, and also the woods you use to fume give the colour to the woods. (take note of my fumed wood samples and the colours)

Japan driers do not come in colors, its the Japan Colors they are the colorants, that are used to make up the different wood stain colours.

Japan driers are toxic chemical sustances that are used to catylized raw linseed oil into Japan driers, that is then added to the Japan colours to speed up there drying time. You can also add White Spirits to the Japan colors to make up a faster drying wood stain.

I hope, I enlightened you a little about fuming.

Have a great 2008

Good Luck on your finishing.

MacS

[MacS]

Hi Steph,

Here is another photo showing some panels where I brushed on household ammonia, as you can see the spieces of woods has a lot to do with the final color.

Steph, regardless, if you decide to brush on the ammonia, or fume inside a tent or a sealed box, besure you do it outside the house.

[rightendup]

Before all of these product vanish try yr darnedest to find true aqueous ammonia. Put it and yr project into an airtight tent, in a bowl and fume it (with or without the alcohol burner).
15 yrs ago I was lucky to find a cache of potassium dichromate in a Kodak color kit, it is now very hard to find.
Try finding an ordinary bottle of 100 per cent pure lye (Red Devil Drain Cleaner) if you find some learn how to use it.
More and more we woodworkers succumb to the lesser products with which to perform our art as the 'dangerous' products are taken off the shelves.
When you find it post it.
See: George Franks on ammonia
You're looking for universal color. Go to a paint shop with vials in hand and ask for red, yellow orange,brown,blue, etc from the stuff that they squirt in small increments - used to be it was for free.
Sounds like you haven't gone online yet - Constantines is a good start.

Jay

[MacS]

Jay,

Your entitled to your opinions, but for your information aqueous ammonia which is chemically "ammonium hydroxide" is a very dangerous chemical even at 10 to 35% NH3. The Household Ammonia which is the same exact chemica,l but is only 5 to 7% is also dangerous.

I'll let Steph descide on what she will want to use. You can see by my samples that the household ammonia was able to add color to the diifferent woods.

Jay, why would you tell a novice like Steph to use the the higher concentrated NH3,? You probably never fumed a piece of wood.

BTW - it was the Stickley Bros. that gave the industry the art of fuming funiture. I never heard of any paint company giving away pigmented colorant for free.

Jay, I see you haven't changed over the years, your still BS about the good old days. Jay, time has marched on, can't you see Steph is new to this, so why send her down that road of chance and danger, I guess it makes you still feel good.

Do a search if you still want potassium dichromate, its still sold, and ask for am MSDS. BTW- its poisinous.

Steph, please read this MSDS (material safety data sheet) see effective date.

MSDS Number: A5916 * * * * * Effective Date: 05/04/07 * * * * * Supercedes: 08/23/04

AMMONIUM HYDROXIDE (10 - 35% NH3)
1. Product Identification
Synonyms: Ammonium hydroxide solutions; ammonia aqueous; ammonia solutions
CAS No.: 1336-21-6
Molecular Weight: 35.05
Chemical Formula: NH4OH in H2O
Product Codes:
J.T. Baker: 4807, 5204, 5224, 5350, 5358, 5604, 5817, 5820, 5851, 5852, 5891, 5893, 5993, 7847, 9718, 9719, 9721, 9730, 9731, 9733, 9741, 9742
Mallinckrodt: 0124, 0127, 1177, 3248, 3256, 3258, 5318, 6665, H010, H893, H894, V592, V649, V893, XL002, XM-187, XM-189
2. Composition/Information on Ingredients

Ingredient CAS No Percent Hazardous
--------------------------------------- ------------ ------------ ---------

Ammonium Hydroxide 1336-21-6 21 - 72% Yes
Water 7732-18-5 28 - 79% No
Contains between 10 and 35% ammonia.


3. Hazards Identification
Emergency Overview
--------------------------
POISON! DANGER! CORROSIVE. MAY BE FATAL IF SWALLOWED OR INHALED. MIST AND VAPOR CAUSE BURNS TO EVERY AREA OF CONTACT.

SAF-T-DATA(tm) Ratings (Provided here for your convenience)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Health Rating: 3 - Severe (Poison)
Flammability Rating: 0 - None
Reactivity Rating: 1 - Slight
Contact Rating: 4 - Extreme (Corrosive)
Lab Protective Equip: GOGGLES & SHIELD; LAB COAT & APRON; VENT HOOD; PROPER GLOVES
Storage Color Code: White Stripe (Store Separately)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Potential Health Effects
----------------------------------

Inhalation:
Vapors and mists cause irritation to the respiratory tract. Higher concentrations can cause burns, pulmonary edema and death. Brief exposure to 5000 ppm can be fatal.
Ingestion:
Toxic! May cause corrosion to the esophagus and stomach with perforation and peritonitis. Symptoms may include pain in the mouth, chest, and abdomen, with coughing, vomiting and collapse. Ingestion of as little as 3-4 mL may be fatal.
Skin Contact:
Causes irritation and burns to the skin.
Eye Contact:
Vapors cause irritation. Splashes cause severe pain, eye damage, and permanent blindness.
Chronic Exposure:
Repeated exposure may cause damage to the tissues of the mucous membranes, upper respiratory tract, eyes and skin.
Aggravation of Pre-existing Conditions:
Persons with pre-existing eye disorders or impaired respiratory function may be more susceptible to the effects of this material.

[stef1611]

Hey Guys,

Sorry I didn't reply earlier, I was in a hole down south with no phone line and no reception on my mobile so could not check your answers.
By the way, my name is Stephane but that does not make me a girl, It is the way French spell Stefan (it would not sound like Stefan if there was no "e" at the end...lol).
I thank you so much for your inputs. Macs you are right I am new to trying to fume wood. I did not know you could just brush the amonia straight on the wood. The reason I got interested in trying this method is that I made a table out of Taz oak and from past experience from using this wood, those quarter sawn planks have very linear sort of grain and using usual stains does not make it look that nice, too many lines!!!! It is more the table top that worries me by the way. I know what you're gonna say, I shouldn't stain Taz oak but the small table goes in the bedroom where other pieces of furniture are and I want to match the colour as far as I can. I thought fuming the wood would give the extra colouring of the wood beyond the grain, I may be wrong in thinking that. Also I read this fuming thing in a finishing book and I thought it quite appealing to try this method.
Anyhow thank you so much guys for your help (I hope my question did not spark too much tension among you guys...lol)
Happy new year to you.
Cheers
Steph

[MacS]

Let me say, that if you fume or brush- on the ammonia, the woods you use must have tannin, the more tannin the more color , the less tannin the less color you will get.

I sugesst that making up the brush -on samples with tell you by the final color if the woods are rich in tannin.

Good Luck

[astrid]

Steph,

By and large I agree with MacS
exactly what effect are you trying to achieve and what kind of timber are you using?

pure ammonia is hard to get here without a licence and as several people have pointed out, its pretty hairy stuff.
Ive used it once mixed with peroxide to bleach timber and even with a full chemical mask, outdoors, its not something i will ever agree to do again
if you want to achieve a translucent grey/black, try steel wool and vineger.
this is safe and depending on the wood can give a smokey grey/ to black look. Play around with it on an off cut first
Fuming is not somewhere i would go without careful consideration and the right environment,

Astrid

[MacS]

Using vinegar with steel wool is commonly used to make up an "acid stain to ebonize the woods."

Just as with the ammonia that is used to fume the woods, it will depend on the amount of tannin in the woods, the more tannin the blacker the woods will get. Those woods with very little tannin will give you colors of yellow to browns depending on the stain you make up and the tannin.

Testing the wood is the only way to tell the final woods colors, as with the fuming, the strengh of the acid stain made up from the vinegar and the steel oxide from the steel wool, plus the amount of tannin in the wood will give you different colors from barnyard grey to a deep black wood.

This finishing technique is known as Ebonizing. The photo shows different acid strenghts on oak, which is high in tannin.

[ubeaut]

Being a bit of a luddite when it comes to finishes and finishing I have to agree wholeheartedly with Jay.

If you find 880, potassium bichromate, condy's crystals, etc, etc then grab it and guard it with your life as these are some of the greatest dyes and stains to use especially for true restoration and reproduction of high quality antiques.

However having said that I would also say this: If you're inexperienced keep well away from all this stuff as it can kill you if you don't know what you're doing. Maybe not right away but even a short exposure to some of these chemicals in the wrong way can have dire results. Most are carcinogenic some will rip the flesh from your bones or burn your lungs out and they're the good ones.

I also have to agree with Jay again about the universal tint. Go to a paint shop with some little bottles or vials as he said and ask for some samples from the carousel most will gladly give you some. Get the colours Jay suggests along with lamp black, sienna, burnt sienna, burnt umber, raw umber, and any other earthy tones they're willing to part with. You can try them out for colour and then go back and buy them in 250ml or 500ml bottles or tins.

Any good paint shop or hardware shop will give you a bit to try out it basically costs them nothing but a bit of good will.

You can also look at water dyes available fron the chemist and used for dying materials. Some of these are amazingly strong colours with a real depth and intensity and to top it off they cost next to nothing and are safe to use.

Hope this is of some help.

Cheers - Neil :U

[astrid]

Niel,
Is that Dia, Dire or dying
and you smack me for trying to kill off the newbies.:U

Astrid:)

[MacS]

Hi Neil,

Your speaking with a fork tounge, its gotta be one way or the other.

Take it, or leave it, its just not worth it, they are too dangerous and there are better and safer coloring subsitutes availible today.

For all who read this post, why don't you try going into some paint stores with small bottles, and ask them to fill up the bottles up for free!(lol)

All of those that get the free paste piigments, will please come back here and post your rewards or dissapointments.

If you attempted this in the USA, they would never give it to you, maybe in Aussieland they maybe more generous, lets see the results of those who go forth to see if they can get it for free.

And, also try going into the chemists, maybe they are giving away free dyes for the new year. (lol)

: )

MacS

[ubeaut]

If you attempted this in the USA, they would never give it to you
I don't care if they're penny pinching, mean hearted, shopkeepers in the US here in AUSTRALIA (The LUCKY COUNTRY) it is possible to get the free samples from most paint shops and if not you take your business elsewhere. Go to a real shop in the US and I'm sure you will get thew same service. That's if you can find one that isn't part of a big conglomerate. Be nice and don't make a habit of it and I'm sure you will get the same response as here. In the mean time.....

WAKE UP MAC

THIS IS AN AUSTRALIAN FORUM

Not only that but the answer I submitted was for an Australian member. So either come to OZ and see for yourself or pull your head in.


Your speaking with a fork tounge, its gotta be one way or the other.
NO I DON'T. I can have it any way I dam well please so can Jay or anyone else and it has nothing what so ever to do with you. I have used and will continue use the nasty stuff if needed. As have and do most of the top restorers in the world.

I also promote and recommend new finishing staining and dying techniques. Just because someone doesn't agree with your ideas doesn't mean they are wrong or that you are necessarily right just that you are prolific at telling people about your way.

Either behave on these forums and stop abusing people like Jay, and others just because they have a different point of view to you, or leave. You have some good info but are like a stuck record, pushing your ways and ideas above all others.

All have the right to their own opinion and way of doing things even you. So let others be. After all finishing isn't an exact science but a continually evolving one and all should be allowed to share their knowledge, experiments, failures, successes, favourite finishes, dyes, stains, etc without fear of ridiculed, abused or being tolt they're talking BS.

Neil :~

PS this is the shortened less vitriolic version of my original.

[astrid]

My local hardware store;
cuts my timber to size for me and planes it down.
and will give me a sqirt of colour if i want to tint some small quantity of paint.
The local goldsmith give me acid if i need a bit
and the hairdresser gives me peroxide.
I have a couple of comtacts with big restorers who give me a bit of timber when i need some or any other out of the ordinary product.
all in return for a smile and a sticky bun.

Small Businesses support each other.

Astrid:)

[ubeaut]

If you find 880, potassium bichromate etc.......Bad wording on my part there you was meant to be anyone and not pointed at Steph. Yes including you Mac, Astrid and anyone else.

Astrid. I am not advocating they bathe in the stuff like you were with the Oxalix Acid.

I guess selective reading by both you and Mac must have missed this bit.
However having said that I would also say this: If you're inexperienced keep well away from all this stuff as it can kill you if you don't know what you're doing. Maybe not right away but even a short exposure to some of these chemicals in the wrong way can have dire results. Most are carcinogenic some will rip the flesh from your bones or burn your lungs out and they're the good ones.

I have no sense of humour this morning.

Neil - with no smile

[stef1611]

Hi everyone,

I am truly sorry that my question that I thought innocent sparked so much debate. I do appreciate all these inputs, if anything they made me realize how dangerous some of those chemicals are. If there is anybody around parramatta (30 kms radius is ok) who experiments often with stains and finishing, I'd love to come have a look and learn. At the moment I enjoy making furniture but when comes the moment of the finishing I get scared of stuffing the whole thing up which makes me realize how little I know about the subject. None of my work colleague has a clue about woodworking, let alone finishing... I know nobody.
Anybody, please pm me if you are willing to show me your secrets of finishing...lol.... I bring the beers (I am addicted to James Squire since I came to Australia...lol).
Cheers
Steph