Detail sanders

[BrianT]

As a new registree, have to say the ubeaut website has finally justified being on the 'net'. The Bulletin Board has been essential reading in setting up a workshop. The Forum has answered my ? re random orbitals but what experiences are there with the little detailers - still $45 for a Ryobi..... I am a hobbyist doing a little furniture restoration - including doors. Many thanks http://ubb.ubeaut.com.au/ubb/wink.gif

[Iain]

Can't comment on the Ryobi but I have a Bosch that cost $110 with a carry case and three additional attachments for sanding louvres etc.

There is the standard plate, a forward extended plate, a flat finger plate and a contoured finger plate with a range of grits for each one (albeit not many).
I know plate is the wrong word but I am not sure what the bit that vibrates is called (sure I am going to regret that one).

Of course you could say 'bugger it' and go out and buy a Festool for $400+ http://ubb.ubeaut.com.au/ubb/biggrin.gif

EDIT...just re read the post, I am talking about Delta sanders, sorry, I'll leave it here though in case its of interest.

------------------
: http://community.webshots.com/user/iain49

[This message has been edited by Iain (edited 08 August 2002).]

[coastie]

Just add an n and you've got it right!
As in platen!

[BobGilmour]

Hi BrianT

Only just found this forum several minutes ago.

I have used most of the small "detail", palm - call them what you like - sanders currently on the Australian market.

I do a variety of woodwork for a living, tho specialise in fine finish freeform carved bowls, platters and other carvings. The finishing process is rather more long-winded than actually making the items. A palm-type finishing sander is essential - smaller the better.

I have a couple of Makita palm sanders - with modified pads to suit my needs - these I use for coarse initial sanding. With 40#grit paper to take out circular sanding scratches from the final disk sanding steps. I find, however, that the Makita palm sanders, although an excellent industrial strength small sander, are too coarse in their action for really fine finish work. Also, quite heavy in weight to use - due to their 'proper' motor and components.

For some time, I used the little Black and Decker Mouse sanders. A very comfortable and capable sander to use. Enough power given the constraints of their intended purpose. And a really nice finishing action. Also, a well-shaped pad for sanding curves and inside most medium size bowls and larger. But ... they are a 'once a week' tool aimed at handypeople. I use my sanders around 4 to 6 hours a day up to 5 days a week (some weeks). The B&D can't handle this and I was getting about 3 to 4 months out of a sander. Warranty return is out of the question ... because I was simply wearing them out. Mostly, the sealed can motors (Johnson Electrical) were failing ... although out of the 6 that I have owned in the past 3 years, 2 failed of oscillation bearing flog-out. I did begin to souce a supply of motors - on the basis, that if you could buy half a dozen motors for 10 bucks each (or whatever), then this was a viable continuation option. But, I eventually decided it wasn't.

Tried the delta-type sanders. Don't know about the Festo - own several other Festo tools and hate them. Just too overpriced and, in some cases, just not good performers. There are better tools on the market for serious workers.

The cheap deltas aren't good to use. Again , they are meant for infrequent use - although most have proper armature motors. I have one of the Ryobis ... but you simply can't use it for any more than 5 minutes or so because the design is just so out of balance. That big long motor unit at right angles to the sanding head throws the whole thing out of balance. I bought the Ryobi specifically to sand the inside of one small burl bowl that I carved about a year ago. Also, the oscillation action is not very good - maybe OK once you get down to 400# ... but pretty poor starting off with 80#.

There are several small random orbital options for air tools. One was a random orbit head you could put in a die right angle die grinder. I had one several years ago and it was pretty good - about a 40mm head. Great for really fine sanding of small things. Haven't been able to track another one down since thought ... if anyone else knows where they can be got, please advise. You can also get a random orbit delta head to fit a 4" grinder - from American Vermont - along with biscuit joiners and all sorts of other stuff. Don't know how good they are, but the cost is only about $60 from hardware stores. Then, you can go all the way to about $700 for an air-driven 50mm random orbit from Dynabraid (USA) - OK ... stop coughing now!!!! stop choking too!!!

Am currently using a GMC mouse sander (don't laugh!!). It has a proper motor. No bells and whistles. No dust extraction - doesn't bother me. I wear a mask anyway ... and just wipe the pad on my trouser leg every now and then if I'm getting gauling from dust build-up. That's a sure sign of needing to change paper anyway. Have had this one now almost 4 months and it is still operating the same as the day I bought it. The action is still tight and noise level hasn't increased (a sign with B&D's that the bearings are flogging out). As with most tools, I have had a peek inside the case to see how it's put together, and the build quality is fairly good. Price is pretty good too. Although, I was lucky and picked mine up in a promotion for $99 including a 3" planer (which is pretty toy'ish ... but it does come in surprisingly handy for running chamfers on table legs etc --> small and light). If I saw them real cheap again, I'd definitely buy a second one as a spare or simply as a second one.

One other thing. Don't buy proprietory paper for all these odd-shaped sanders. I just use my normal 6" round sheets which I buy in boxes of 100 from 3M. Don't bother with other brands of paper either. The 3M is dearer, but it outlasts everything else I've used. I also buy 3M paper in roll-form. This is all velcro paper I'm talking about. You can get 40 through about 150 grit in 4" wide paper ... and it's brilliant. It's meant to be used on long boards for fairing boat hulls (a field I used to be into). Not cheap, but absolutely the duck's nuts for cutting up and using with these small sanders. Also, great for making your own hand rubbing blocks -> just glue vecro backing to your block or pad of choice.

So ... that's it. Oh ... all these little sanders have limitations. I have a powerful SP air random 6" sander that I use for all flat work - which is simply a grunt machine. Best on the market. I also have a 6" random Festo orbital variable speed super duper u-beaut machine which anyone out there is welcome to for about $200.

Hope the above helps.


Regards,


Bob.

------------------
wood's good

[BrianT]

http://ubb.ubeaut.com.au/ubb/smile.gifMany thanks to Iain and Bob, appreciate your assistance.

BT

[Jon]

Thanks Bob for your very detailed comments.
I have been looking at palm sanders and thinking about the B&D. Looks like it will be the GMC following your comments.

Jon

[BobGilmour]

Jon

Don't get me wrong ... the B&D is a great, comfortable little sander. Nice action and produces a fine finish -> all the way from 40# initial pad sanding right through to the 800# dry that I use after initial sealing (which occurs after 320#) and prior to application of finishing products.

But ... all these little sanders (except the Makita I mentioned) are 'hobbyist' tools. None of them are designed to stand up to professional use. However, the GMC so far is holding it's own very well. I always thought it would be a joke and steered clear in favour of moving to the B&D's a couple years ago.

I do have a philosophy, however, that goes something like ... this is a limited, low usage tool meant for hobby workers ... if I use it and it works well, then it lasts for as long as it does ... and when it dies, I either abandon the idea in search of a better one ... or simply buy another ... and count the cost as a drawdown ... just like sandpaper and finishes etc.

Cheers,


Bob.

------------------
wood's good

[soundman]

Re detail sanders of the delta type.
I have owned a cheap bosch similar to mentioned above and found it to be rough and disapointing in its inability to sand close to the egde or into corners without buzzing off the edges.
I more recently purchased a fein ( the original delta sander ) I now understand why people spend the money. much smoother & controlled and far less vibration in the hand.

re brands of abrasive
I have used several brands, & have found SIA to be better than the 3M and that better than carborundum then norton.

re special cuts for funny shaped sanders several serious abrasive suppliers will do shapes to order in reasonable quantities.
Almost all my machines are are dust extracted so punched shapes are the go.
At about 70c a piece

cheers

[TOMARTOM]

I use a ryobi detail sander for the tricky bits, but I have found the key is to use this machine is by using very fine and good quality abrasive paper, like 400 grit,go to an abrasive outlet, that manufactures belts and the like and purchase offcuts a large box costs me $2, and cut out my own. Otherwise have them make them up, it may work out cheaper and also get a superior quality and fine grit as well. The ryobi sander is quite harsh in it's orbit and therefore a fime grit is the better way to go.

On another note, the Festo sander, 150mm/3mm orbit are great, well worth the money.

cheers Tony

[Priemsy]

I agree with you Tony . Make up your own disks. Change the pads on the sander to solid, then get some disk cement. Holds as well as velcro and ends up a fraction of the price of same.

[BrianT]

http://ubb.ubeaut.com.au/ubb/smile.gifThanks for your input folks -this and other forums have been a great help in setting up a workshop.You can't beat the experience of others. Re sandpaper - couldn't agree more about using quality, having just used some that came with a Makita sander - about as usefull as teats on a bull. No comparison with quality Norton and 3M and similar products
Regards
Brian.

[derekcohen]

Hi guys

I am interested if any of you have tried scraping instead of sanding. I'm not sure if it is even a viable method or possible with the items you are finishing.

I do own several sanders, ranging from the Bosch detail sander to Festo and Makita (even Triton) sanders. Much of the projects I am currently doing (such as a Jarrah Mission style bed) permit me to scrape as they are larger, broader areas. I use a variety of scrapers, such as a Stanley #80, #112 (which is a scraper plane), as well as card scrapers. These work so well that I have not used my sanders in yonks. No noise and I can breath the air.

Could this be applied to your prijects?

Regards

Derek (in Perth)

[BrianT]

G,day Derek,

Do mainly old - not antique - furniture of any style/finish. Never tried your method but will give it a go.
thanks & regards
Brian.

[soundman]

Re scrapers & deric's post.
I have used a scraper a little & have been surprised at the efficiency, keeping the bugger sharp is a drawback.
If I was doung a lot I thing I'd by a fist full of em & sharpen em all at once.

The smoothing plane I've found quite amusing in comparison to sand paper at times too.

[derekcohen]

The Stanley #112 scraper plane is a hard-to-find and expensive tool as collectors are buying them up. LN make a simply beautiful (and better) copy in bronze but it is BIG bucks. They also make a smaller version, the #212, which is about $250 (I think). These scraper planes are necessary for smoothing Australian hardwoods as planes (electric and hand) will often just cause tear out (the Gordon planes, with their 60 degree blade angle, do not). However, you cannot use them on softwood.

The Stanley #80 is quite cheap (about $30 - 50 second hand) and a wonderful scaper. Kunz make a copy, which is available in most good wood shops.

Card scrapers are cheap as chips ($5 or so) and if the main reason one avoids them is the difficulty in sharpening, then get the Veritas sharper - takes about 30 seconds at most.

The beauty of scrapers, aside from the lack of noise and dust, is the wonderful finish they provide. You simply cannot compare a sanded surface (no matter how fine the grit) with that of a scraped surface. The sabded surface is always going to lack luster (there are fine scratches that obscure the wood) while the scraped surface brings out all the detail in the grain since it is akin to a planed surface. Card scrapers come in all shapes and sizes. I make my own out of old saw blades.

Regards

Derek (in Perth)

[Nuggett]

Derek
How do you learn about scraping? Is there a certain way to scrape long boards?
Please advise.
Also even though the scraper planes are expenses L&N Clifton Stanley ect I tend to think that if you take into account the price of power tools plus the sheets & how long the tool will last you will be in front price wise?
Brad

[derekcohen]

There is a place for both scraping and for sanding. Scraping has its best results on hard wood. Brad, you are right to compare costs by including the cost of the sanding equipment rather than just sandpaper (As I was thinking). Then, a LN #112 scraper plane (approx $600) sounds relatively cheap. But I would not start there. Too advanced and too expensive. Start simple and cheaply with basic card scrapers. Used correctly, these can (and should) produce thin shavings in the manner that hand planes do. The secret is in the sharpening or burnishing. In a few words, the desired edge is a sharp hook or "burr". This is best described by others. So go to http://www.joewoodworker.com/scraper.htm
http://www.sydneywoodturners.com.au/site/articles/techniques/scraper.html

Frankly, the easiest way is to use the Veritas burnisher jig. All of 30 seconds to use. Cost approx $30.

In use card scrapers are more typically pushed because it is the most natural position for using your thumbs to put a slight bow in the scraper. I sometimes also pull it.

This is probably not the place to go into too much detail. I have no doubt that you will find many articles on scrapers and scraping if you search the web. I will post a few sites when I get a chance to look.

Regards

Derek

[Mick4412]

Have been following this post, and became intrigued with "Scraping" I didn't even know what it really meant.
Found a web site which is worth a look
http://www.brendlers.net/oldtools/

In the Homepage, click on "woodworking" then goto "The Scraper Tutorial"

[derekcohen]

Brad and others

There is a thread on scraping on Neanderthan Haven that may interest you. Go to http://www.wwforum.com/cgi-bin/forum_main/handtool.cgi?read=62858

Give it a go. You will be pleasantly surprised. But beware - it is the first step down the slippery slope to addiction to hand tools!

Regards

Derek

[Andre Bijlsma]

First time user, so I hope this works...
For removing old paint or varnish esp from furniture, try using glass rectangles. Simply go to your local glass merchant and ask to have a sheet of glass cut into rectangles of 60x90 mm (ordinary cheap glazing stuff). Apply paint stripper, wait fot the prescribed time and scrape! Works wonders - I have safely removed layers of gunk from oak dressers etc. Method: always scrape towards you, holding with both hands, with the glass panel at approx 60 degrees or at whatever angle feels ok. When the scraper becomes blunt, simply replace - too simple... Good luck!


Hi guys

I am interested if any of you have tried scraping instead of sanding. I'm not sure if it is even a viable method or possible with the items you are finishing.

I do own several sanders, ranging from the Bosch detail sander to Festo and Makita (even Triton) sanders. Much of the projects I am currently doing (such as a Jarrah Mission style bed) permit me to scrape as they are larger, broader areas. I use a variety of scrapers, such as a Stanley #80, #112 (which is a scraper plane), as well as card scrapers. These work so well that I have not used my sanders in yonks. No noise and I can breath the air.

Could this be applied to your prijects?

Regards

Derek (in Perth)

[Different]

The Stanley #112 scraper plane is a hard-to-find and expensive tool as collectors are buying them up. LN make a simply beautiful (and better) copy in bronze but it is BIG bucks. They also make a smaller version, the #212, which is about $250 (I think). These scraper planes are necessary for smoothing Australian hardwoods as planes (electric and hand) will often just cause tear out (the Gordon planes, with their 60 degree blade angle, do not). However, you cannot use them on softwood.

The Stanley #80 is quite cheap (about $30 - 50 second hand) and a wonderful scaper. Kunz make a copy, which is available in most good wood shops.

Card scrapers are cheap as chips ($5 or so) and if the main reason one avoids them is the difficulty in sharpening, then get the Veritas sharper - takes about 30 seconds at most.

The beauty of scrapers, aside from the lack of noise and dust, is the wonderful finish they provide. You simply cannot compare a sanded surface (no matter how fine the grit) with that of a scraped surface. The sabded surface is always going to lack luster (there are fine scratches that obscure the wood) while the scraped surface brings out all the detail in the grain since it is akin to a planed surface. Card scrapers come in all shapes and sizes. I make my own out of old saw blades.

Regards

Derek (in Perth)
Derek

I agree strongly with your advice to forum members recomending the use and choice of scrapers I too use a #80 and many hand scrapers and am saving for the $600 LN but I must disagree (to a point) with your comments about the quality of a scraped surface. True some timbers notably very open grained timbers like Oak or Ash respong very well and give a superb surface but I fine a much better result on fine grained timbers like Myrtle and figured blackwood if you scrape first and the sand 240, 320, 400 then switch to either hand rubbing the whole surface with a bod handfull of plane shavings of the same species or even placing a wad of shavings under the bottom of a ROS on low speed for a final burnishing. Also on natural edged pieces I often finish with these foam pads impregnated with a very fine Alunimum Oxide I use the same ones for years and the surfase realy shines .

My 10 cents

Ross