Japanese Lacquer (urushi)

[hybridfiat]

I havea saya (sword sheath) that I would like to refinish and it is done in a genuine japanese black (Urushi) lacquer. I cant find a supplier for the stuff anywhere. Can anyone help. Before another nihonto fan goes 'bald' at me for playing with a saya its' a gunto (wartime) fitting so not rare or particularly valuable.

[astrid]

this is a very specialized field,
If you google "Urushi" or "repairing Urushi" you'll find lots of sites to help.
I wouldnt even like to give advise on the preparation.
You may be able to sand back and re coat.
I suspect that the sheath itself is made of bamboo with the laccer applied in many layers like lathe and plaster or wattle and daub.
so I wouldnt try paint stripper. the sheath might fall apart.
I could be completly wrong.
astrid

[tea lady]

I've got this book that mum found at a fete, that was published in the 1940's. It has heeps of different crafts in it including Japanese lacquer work. It sounds terribly complicated. The lacquer they use is actually from the Lac tree, Rhus vernificera, that is tapped like rubber trees are. They give a recipe of 70% lac acid, 24%water, 4% gum arabic ,2%albumen. A thick grey emulsion that becomes yellow, then black in the sun. It is strained heated mixed with other stuff. Seems that most things are pine below it all but there are a multitude of layers of different mixes and even a layer of cloth. And of course lots of sanding to smooth finishes with wet stones. Twenty or thirty processes taking two or three weeks. European Lacquour uses the Coccus lacca beetles to make shellac to use as varnish. Tres interesting, no? It doesn't say how to refinish japanese lacquor though.
This books pretty amazing though. It has a chapter on wood work that goes straight from beginner to making a chest of draws. Obviously people in those days were more capably then now.:D

[hybridfiat]

Thanks but I already have a book on the proccess, you are quite right though, it is very long and complex. Plus Ive googled urushi and got the info. What I need is the stuff itself.
The saya is made of ho wood and is still in good condition. The problem is that during WWII the saya was wrpped in leather to protect it and most of the fittings removed.
This has led to scratching and wear on the original laquered finish.
I am sourcing a full set of fittings from the period and wish to use the saya to build up a koshirae for display.

[MacS]

Hello,

Have you given any thought about doing this Urushi finish with convensional finishing materials, that would duplicate the same look in less time and materials.

This same subject is on another finishing forum, which I am trying to show how it could be done. Two attached photos, one shows a red cadium base with a black glaze top that was then clear coated, and the second photo shows where the red base is glazed black, it still shows some red under the clear coats.

If more black glaze or a black shading stain is needed it could still be added if that is what you wanted.

[hybridfiat]

Sorry no, it has to be the real deal. Im doing for a med to low end blade $2000-$4500 range where the cost of getting Japanese fittings made is not warranted. The blade would have to go to Japan and the cost is in excess of $3000. Thats assuming it gets past Japanese customs. They will destroy any blade they suspect might be wartime. Weapon as opposed to 'art blade'.

[astrid]

hybred,
could you post some pictures please?
sounds like a wonderful restoration project and your right to do it right.
astrid
PS I'm ringing around some of my restorer contacts for you to see if I can source it.
someone here will have some as asian antiques are pretty popular

[astrid]

OK Ive got a reply for you, sort of maybe.
I rang robert brown in melbourne, a respected restorer of very fine, generally euopean antiques.
I dosent know where to get it, but says that people used to melt down old records. (the really old ones that smash if you drop them)
there were made of laccer. so there is a start for some reasearch.
WATCH HEALTH AND SAFTY STUFF.
I have no idea whether this is safe, I suspect its highly inflamabe and toxic.
also in consideration of other collectors, if you find such records make sure they really are too damaged to play.

good luck
astrid

[hybridfiat]

Thanks for the input. Ive been scrolling around trying to get as much info on this before I start to spend money. The gunto fittings are in very good condition for their age but it would look much nicer after a finish polish ($1000) in period koshirae (Edo 1660)

Steve

[hybridfiat]

The suggestion of using old 78s really tickled me, I might just experiment with that one. Thanks

Steve Phillips

[astrid]

MY pleasure,
but do research the safty aspects
and I wouldnt "gild the Lily" by making it look like somthing I'ts not.(Edo)
It actually reduces the value to practicaly Zero.
It wont fool an expert, and you never know what unscrupulous hands it will fall into in the future.

Astrid

[MacS]

This schedule was from the other finishing forum, it was for a black finish which had red in the black. This is a finish that takes lots of time, which these urushi finishes are noted for, and which you want to do. You will have to substitute the colors for the ones you want.
Maybe, its a start for you, and maybe its not.
Black Base:
1 qt of Flat black oil paint
1/2 cup Raw Umber (grnd in oil)
1/2 cup semi gloss oil varnish or poly
1/4 cup paint thinner
10 - 12 drops of Japan drie
Red Base:
1 pint of Bulletin Red Japan color (or a dead flat red oil paint)
1/4 cup paint thinner
5 - 7 drops of gold paint
3 -4 drops of Japan drier
For the base coat:
1) 1st Coat: Brush on going with the grain. When dry, light sand w/320 grit& tack rag to remove dust
2) 2nd Coat: Brush on going against grain. When dry sand and tack rag.
3) Repeat steps 1 and 2. When done, let dry for 4 - 5 days.
For the top coat:
1) Rub surface with 4-0 steel wool and wipe with a tack rag
2) Using a new China bristle brush lay on first coat, going with the grain. Let dry at least 24 hours. Sand with a400 grit paper & tack rag.
3) Apply a second coat ( you can use a roller for 2nd coat) going with grain. Let dry at least 24 hours. Sand with a 400 grit paper & tack rag.
4) Wet sand with a 600 grit wet/dry paper so that some base color shows thru on corners, and/or "wear" spots.
5) Wipe dry & remove residue. Let sit for 2 - 3 days, and then apply 2 coats of oil base, gloss finish.
6) Let dry for at least 5 days. Then rub surface with the following in the following order:
- 600 grit wet/dry (wet), wipe dry & remove residue
- an auto body polishing compound (or 2000 abralon pad)
- an auto body swirl mark remover (or 4000 abralon pad)
- apply a good paste wax.
I said it was labor & time intensive but results are impressive .
These were his words and not mine.

There were some on the forum who said, their formula was very similar to this one, but others felt it could be done faster with newer finishing materials, and that no one could tell the difference once the finish was completed, I agree with those finishers.
Good Luck.

[R.B.]

afaik the melting down of old 78's was for the "japan" that they used to paint on the floor around rugs.. we all know it as the black crap that wont come off.. maybe we'll re-carpet instead.

not fine japanese lacquer me thinks

[hybridfiat]

MY pleasure,
but do research the safty aspects
and I wouldnt "gild the Lily" by making it look like somthing I'ts not.(Edo)
It actually reduces the value to practicaly Zero.
It wont fool an expert, and you never know what unscrupulous hands it will fall into in the future.

Astrid

The koshirae are less important than the blade which is a genuine signed Edo period blade. Blades were/are routinely refitted with new koshirae and no-one looks at the fittings to date a sword, even the signature is less important than the make up of the blade itself.
There have been documented examples of blades refused a paper of authenticity because the signature that looked dodgy but once it was removed being accepted as made by that smith. It sounds bizarre but that is the way it works.
The fittings are like a picture frame around a fine work of art, you notice it more if it doesnt suit the picture but if it is in tune then it fades into the background.
There is a dutch fellow who does koshirae but I fear it will still be more than I can afford to spend on a blade from a minor smith.
Ill see if I can simply restore some of the scratched laquer work on the saya and if I can all well and good. If not Ill consider a full restoration in Japan.

[astrid]

If the koshirae is unimportant, then dont bring the blade under suspision by tarting up the sheath just restore to the original as best you can.
I understand the signed /not signed thing. I collect netsuke and theres a lot of debate about signitures, lets face it their easy to fake.
whereas a lovely thing speaks for itself.
Astrid

[Pusser]

OK Ive got a reply for you, sort of maybe.
I rang robert brown in melbourne, a respected restorer of very fine, generally euopean antiques.
I dosent know where to get it, but says that people used to melt down old records. (the really old ones that smash if you drop them)
there were made of laccer. so there is a start for some reasearch.
WATCH HEALTH AND SAFTY STUFF.
I have no idea whether this is safe, I suspect its highly inflamabe and toxic.
also in consideration of other collectors, if you find such records make sure they really are too damaged to play.

good luck
astrid

You can dissolve them in metho according to one source. They are apparently a type of hard black shellac

[NCArcher]

Hi Steve,
that looks like an interesting blade.
would it be possible to see some close ups of the blade, focusing on the harmon and mei?
Who is the smith? (if you know) and how did you acquire the sword.
Any idea of the date?

Sorry to be so nosey but i love Japanese blades.

Tony

[MacS]

The 78 RPM records were made from various chemicals, from vinlys, shellac, acetates, phenol etc, and are almost impossible to tell the differences.

Besides, why even consider any these records when you can buy different shellacs or varnishes and color them black or any other colors.

[ian]

The suggestion of using old 78s really tickled me, I might just experiment with that one. Thanks

Steve PhillipsSteve
the reference I have says that urushi is the sap of the Rhus verniciflua tree and that it is sourced from China

as far as I know, old 78s were made from Shellac which is made from bettle carcasses — As I understand an earlier post, using disolved 78s would be akin to using contemporary finishes

why don't you PM a few of our Japanese collegues?


ian

[hybridfiat]

The smith was Nagamichi, it is signed, Musashi no kami Nagamichi??????. He was a minor smith from Kanbun near Kyoto around 1660. It has suguha harmon with nie active temper pattern throughout the blade and has deep temper at the point. The forging grain is tight itame-hada and 1 very small forging flaw. It is in old polish and the grain is hard to disern.
I got it from a dealer in California.
I havnt got time to post more pics here but will soon

[NCArcher]

The smith was Nagamichi, it is signed, Musashi no kami Nagamichi??????. ........I havnt got time to post more pics here but will soon

Thanks Steve,
I'll look forward to the pics.


Tony

[hybridfiat]

Hi all Ive found a supplier fot the urushi. Not only that he supplies everything else for the restoration of swords and koshirae (handle, fittings and sheath). For future reference its: http://www.namikawa-ltd.co.jp
Tony Ive contacted a restorer in Holland and he's quoted me a cost of $2200 to polish the blade Arrrrrrrrrrrrrggg!!!! Ill think about it eh

[astrid]

thats great,:2tsup:
let us all know how you get on.
I've always wanted to know how japanese laccer works.
post progressive pics please

Merry Christmas
Astrid:)

[hybridfiat]

thats great,:2tsup:
let us all know how you get on.
I've always wanted to know how japanese laccer works.
post progressive pics please

Merry Christmas
Astrid:)

Some trivia for you. During the early part of the occupation of Japan by the americans many soldiers were developing a peculiar rash on thier bums. A typical presentation was a horseshoe shaped red welt on the thigh and buttocks. A rumour went round that it was some form of japanese retaliation.
A Dr looked into this and discovered that the tree urushi was extracted from was related to the american 'poison ivy' and that soldiers who had encountered poison ivy and become sensitised to it developed a rash when they sat on the (few) western style laquered toilet seats. Bizarre!

[tea lady]

I think what you need is a mate in japan to go down to their local craft shop and get some for you. I think it is the sort of thing that you can just buy in tins and tubes and such like over there. Try Tokyu Hands, which is a big craft supplies shop is Shibuya. ( Imean big. Five or six floors as I recall. Spotlight ain't got nothing on them.) Unfortunately their web site is all Japanese.:C

[hybridfiat]

Cheers for that. Where is Shibuya? Ive freinds in Nagano. I dont know that there will be much difference as the restorer will give me exactly what is used for the saya where i may get the wrong suff if I do it by proxy.

[tea lady]

Shibuya is in Tokyo.
Also found this other site called Hyper Cafe Japanese sword shop.That had all this stuff about ubashi, and differant types. also had the wet stones for sanding down and some examples of finishes. I guess restoring is a bit tricky because you don't know what is under there, but they (Hyper cafe ) seemed to suggest ones for old or new objects. (Lord only knows where they got the name from. Or where they actually are. )
Tokyu Hands possibly has other outlets in Japan.

[NCArcher]

Tony Ive contacted a restorer in Holland and he's quoted me a cost of $2200 to polish the blade Arrrrrrrrrrrrrggg!!!! Ill think about it eh

$2200 sounds pretty good. I think the going rate in Japan by a recognised polisher is around $3000 but i guess it varies with the quality of the blade.
If it was me (and i wish it was) I would save up for the restoration of a nice 17th century blade like that.

Nagano is a long way from Shibuya (about 2-3 hrs on the Shinkansen and you have to change to a private line before you get to Nagano) I was in Nagano earlier in the year. They still have banners and posters up from the '89 (I think) olympics.
Good luck with the restoration. Don't forget to post WIP pics.

Tony