Waste to stormwater or sewer?

[Bleedin Thumb]

Hi folks, a plumbing conundrum!


When I build outdoor water play troughs in childcare centres (quite often)should I connect them to sewer or storm water.


Ah you may say "thats as obvious as the pimple on me bum!" it should go to sewer because its been contaminated by the little blighters washing their paint brushes out etc.......and you would be right...however...


The troughs are usually exposed to the elements and hence collects rainwater...and it is illegal to direct rainwater into the sewer ....hence my confussion.

What do you think? Make a guess,

[echnidna]

ask the council health inspector

[Bleedin Thumb]

What kind of person speaks to council officers unless you have no other choice?

[wonderplumb]

Depends on where your from, in the Sydney water area they will be connected to the stormwater system, as Bleedinthumbs pointed out, any stormwater at all shall be prevented from entering the sewerage system, unless under special circumstances which I wont go into. They may want a first flush system similar to trade waste. They may make you install an arrestor of some description, the kindi paint these days is next to edible, water based and biodegradable so they might even let you sink it into an absorbtion trench, or they may want you to recycle it for irrigation.

[echnidna]

What kind of person speaks to council officers unless you have no other choice?

Someone who don't want to take the risk of redoing the job

[bricks]

Hi folks, a plumbing conundrum!
When I build outdoor water play troughs in childcare centres (quite often)should I connect them to sewer or storm water.


Anything other than normal domestic sewer systems are classed as trade waste.

You need a trade waste application to be submitted and an approval returned saying it's ok before you do anything with the water. The minimum I would expect would be a plaster trap and settling tank arrangment.

If it were situated in a domestic home this may be different, because it's a child care centre ( a bussines premises) this is crystal clear- it is trade waste.

If you go to storm water- you need to make sure the mineral and metal content are ok, if it isn't the epa'll kick you a couple of new holes to dispose through.

Either way - do not ever at all connect anything to sewer with out a liscence, and without a COC compleated, the next plumber to see your work might just dob you in. We have a duty of care to report all breaches of the plumbing code.

If you ask the question, I'd go through the epa first and try to get it in storm water, that way you can connect it yourself under your existing building liscence, ( it's a little known fact that stormwater is actually a building service and is not covered by a plumbing liscence.)

If you get approval to put it into sewer you will need to engage a plumber to do the work and sign off- much harder for you if you don't have a plumbing liscence. ( i'm assuming you don't, because if you did you would know this already)

The next thing would be IF the local council regards theese play troughs as POOLS- you will need fences, paved areas etc
The water corporation will require that you have an evaporation cover for when the pool is not in use! You now need a permit from the water authority before you can fill these thing up now.

While writing this response I'm now unsure how you actually getting to install theese because here in S.A. it would be a complete pain in the $%^& to get the approvals delt with?

To end with- you need a tradewaste approval from the water authority OR a stormwater discharge approval from the epa AND possibly an approval from the local council which may include requirements for fencing.

I would'nt mind hearing how it is exactly that you can so easily install theese things " quite often"?? Are you just going down the route of not applying for any approvals, and therefore not being told / caught?

[Bleedin Thumb]

Anything other than normal domestic sewer systems are classed as trade waste.

You need a trade waste application to be submitted and an approval returned saying it's ok before you do anything with the water. The minimum I would expect would be a plaster trap and settling tank arrangment.

If it were situated in a domestic home this may be different, because it's a child care centre ( a bussines premises) this is crystal clear- it is trade waste.

If you go to storm water- you need to make sure the mineral and metal content are ok, if it isn't the epa'll kick you a couple of new holes to dispose through.

Either way - do not ever at all connect anything to sewer with out a liscence, and without a COC compleated, the next plumber to see your work might just dob you in. We have a duty of care to report all breaches of the plumbing code.

If you ask the question, I'd go through the epa first and try to get it in storm water, that way you can connect it yourself under your existing building liscence, ( it's a little known fact that stormwater is actually a building service and is not covered by a plumbing liscence.)

If you get approval to put it into sewer you will need to engage a plumber to do the work and sign off- much harder for you if you don't have a plumbing liscence. ( i'm assuming you don't, because if you did you would know this already)

The next thing would be IF the local council regards theese play troughs as POOLS- you will need fences, paved areas etc
The water corporation will require that you have an evaporation cover for when the pool is not in use! You now need a permit from the water authority before you can fill these thing up now.

While writing this response I'm now unsure how you actually getting to install theese because here in S.A. it would be a complete pain in the $%^& to get the approvals delt with?

To end with- you need a tradewaste approval from the water authority OR a stormwater discharge approval from the epa AND possibly an approval from the local council which may include requirements for fencing.

I would'nt mind hearing how it is exactly that you can so easily install theese things " quite often"?? Are you just going down the route of not applying for any approvals, and therefore not being told / caught?

:roflmao:

God your a funny bugger Bricks. Iv'e been building waterfeatures and irrigation systems for 24 years .......

Maybe SA is a bit more officious that here.

Pool Fences, Local Council, EPA, Water Board... who else should I notify the police and fire brigade.:roflmao:

[journeyman Mick]

...................that way you can connect it yourself under your existing building liscence, ( it's a little known fact that stormwater is actually a building service and is not covered by a plumbing liscence............................

Not in Qld it isn't, needs to be done by a plumber, not sure about NSW - different states, different legislation. In Qld a carpenter can fit metal roofing but not gutters or downpipes. I know in Victoria you need a licensed plumber to do any roofing work.

Around here it would only be considered a "pool" if it was at ground level, more than a certain depth (not sure off the top of my head), and had a pump attached. Ie a deep pond with a fountain = a pool = a fence but a huge pond with no pump = a dam = no pool fencing.

Mick

[Bleedin Thumb]

In NSW you can...well AFAIK you can.....just try to stop me!


Mick re the dam Vs pool...that highlights a typical example of the contradiction in the laws.

Another being if I construct a water feature that the public can come into contact with the water I need $10k worth of scrubbers and chemical injectors.

If I build a pool where people swim in the water I'm up for about $2K worth of filters.

However I can harvest water off my roof, have it sitting untreated in a tank for God knows how long and serve it up to my friends and family to drink ....

That seems ar55 about to me! One of the reasons I hate bureaucracy and avoid dealing with them.........funny thing is I think they feel the same and leave me alone.:-

[bricks]

Just clarifying bleedin, are these things for kids to play in? or just for washing up stuff in?

If they are just for washing in the simplest solution would be to put a hard sun shade over the top to prevent rain from hitting the trough.

If they are used for washing paint brushes- then you'd have to put a plaster / paint settling tank in before you connect them to drain (usually a gully). How ever they still need trade waste approval, and you still need a plumber to do it.

Just to clarify again when you call these a play trough, what exactly are they?

[Bleedin Thumb]

An outdoor sink basically- last one I did had one trough with bubblers for drinking and another attached sink and stainless bench for washing up etc.


You go to every school .....they have bubblers exposed to the elements that collect stormwater every time it rains......should these be connected to stormwater or sewer?


These questions are rhetorical BTW ...I know the answer ........ just wondering about you smarty pants plumbers that recon every one else knows bugger all can get it right.:D

[bricks]

I would always take these fixtures to sewer at the first instance.

If they were to be used for washing up paints etc id install at the very least a bucket trap gully, if not a small plaster trap, but still go to sewer.

If it were a large trough, where I thought the stormwater would become an issue, then I'd refer to S.A water first.

I'd like to know your answer bleedin, because If the stormwater were to become an issue- Ie a large enough trough to warrant even thinking about it, then I'd assume it to be a prohibited location.

To be honest I've not installed any sanitary fixture in a location that's open to rain, there's always a roof or annex over the top for exactly the reason you state.:?

[bitingmidge]

Not in Qld it isn't, needs to be done by a plumber, not sure about NSW - different states, different legislation. In Qld a carpenter can fit metal roofing but not gutters or downpipes. I know in Victoria you need a licensed plumber to do any roofing work.

Around here it would only be considered a "pool" if it was at ground level, more than a certain depth (not sure off the top of my head), and had a pump attached. Ie a deep pond with a fountain = a pool = a fence but a huge pond with no pump = a dam = no pool fencing.
The key is "not intended for human aquatic activity". You can pump and do what you like if it's not intended for human aquatic activity.

Bricks may be funny Bleedin', but he's pretty much on the money. It's a national plumbing code thing.

Just don't get caught.

If you don't like the answer you're going to get, better not ask the question!

Cheers,

P
:D

[bricks]

After a good night's sleep on it bleedin, I decided to consult the holy bible of plumbing, the national plumbing and drainage code.

The only thing in there are that ,


I must protect my installation from the inflow of roof or ground water.
I must do everything reasonably practical to prevent stormwater entering the mains.So as that as my only two refenence notes I'd say that if you install one of these items, you must not let roof or ground water into the system. That's easy because they are off the ground, and you hopefully dont have a downpipe plumbed to it.

The second section is more of a case of whats reasonably practical, I think it's reasonably practical that if the trough butts against a wall, It's not overly expensive to either install a closing lid on the trough for when it's not in use, or you install a small annex over the top of the trough. that annex however ( in order to be recognized as actually doing something) must extend 1.5 m past all edges of the trough.

This is all I can find on the matter, without wasteing alot of my time.

I would'nt under any circumstance connect these troughs to stormwater without EPA approval, it's not worth my liscence.

If you cant put a roof in, then I'd be wary of installing them aswell.


After all would'nt a sunshade for the kiddies be in the best interests of everyone concerned??:wink:

[Bleedin Thumb]

Hi Bricks, I decided to give Sydney Water a ring with these results-

First person I spoke to said Sewer but then checked with their "team Leader" who couldn't make a decision and referred me to a regional inspector.:)

The regional inspector said.. if its under an awning you're right to go to sewer..//.but if its out in the open technically it should go to stormwater.


So you're correct Bricks ...........but I guess so is Wonderplumber:)

I also asked the inspector if I could connect to stormwater - something that I recon every landscaper does all the time and something I have been doing for as long as I can remember.

He said.....No, its illegal


Well now I feel like that character in the movie Brazil!:D:D:D.

If it sets your mind at rest the last one I did I directed the waste to an absorption trench in a garden bed. I will do the same with the current one I have on the drawing board as well......Unless I need a bloody permit for that as well!!!!:p

[bricks]

If you ever do find a acceptable solution, or manage to get a ruling from Wate board or EPA can you PM me with the news. I would'nt mind a final word on this toclear up the confusion.

[Bleedin Thumb]

I'm not likely to speak to them again...being an anarchist who loaths authority.

But I recon sending it to a garden is an acceptable solution as its all low volume, kid safe non-toxic stuff and mainly potable or rainwater anyway...... so you're not adding to the waste stream and your watering a garden. Win Win :2tsup:

The only downside is if you are a long way away from a garden bed, but then I guess you just build one close at hand.

[wonderplumb]

Without asking, I strongly believe that in the Sydney Water area, you would have to connect it to the sewer, via an arrestor of some description and have protected from the ingress of rainwater, ie a lean-to roof over it. After all, when the kids have been in the sun all day, it doesnt seem practical to leave them ou there to wash up and have a drink. You must remember too that on a weekly basis, usually on a saturday they will have a proffesional cleaner in to sanitise the place, as they must stick to hygene guidelines aswell as safety. How will your garden go then with a few litres of bleach and a few mop buckets tipped down the sink?