I would like to get a motorcycle

[Matt88s]

Scratch that, I am getting a motorcycle. :~

Problem 1. Family and friends.

So I happen to drop that I was wanting to get a motorcycle and now everyone is treating me like I'm crazy. They seem convinced that I'd be roadkill the second I hit the road on one. As much as I appreciate their concern, I don't see it happening.

My view is that yes, it is more dangerous than driving a car, but if you pay attention, wear safety gear, and have a good understanding of the fact that everyone else on the road wants you dead whether they know it or not, then you should be fine.

They don't seem to agree with me and have went so far as to threaten the life of my future motorcycle. :o

So what do you guys think? Am I as mental as they think? Are cycles really such death traps?

And if not then how do I acclimate them to the idea?

I'm really surprised by the strength of their reaction, they are really against it. I really don't think I should get a bike until they've adjusted some.

(note, my mother works at a major hospital and fields several motorcycle accidents a week so thats kind of prejudiced her against them a bit)

[Pulpo]

I'm in my mid thirties.

Every friend I know my age who has ridden a bike on an almost daily basis from teens / early twenties all have had accidents.

If you are under 25 years then wait.

Its not so much ones own ability but those on the roads.

I like motor bikes but as your only means of transport its not a great idea.

Good luck

Pulpo

[jow104]

Accidents happen and sometimes they are not your fault.

Your protection is much less on a motorcycle.

52 years driving experience and I have seen some terrible sights.

Your doing a steady 60ks. and a car comes out of a side turning without due care and hits you, if you survive you wont be doing much woodwork for a while.

[Geoff Dean]

Yeah, and you could step out side and get hit with by a bus.

If you want to get a motorbike, then go for it. It sounds like you know about the pitfalls, that is a good start.:2tsup:

Or you could wrap yourself up in cotton balls and stay inside for the rest of your life because it is dangerous to do anything.

Better sell the saw, can cut your fingers off; hammers are dangerous, could bang your finger; what about jointers, ooh how dangerous are they.........and so on and so on.

Never owned a bike, I always seem to fall of the buggers.:D:D Horses are much safer.:2tsup:

[billbeee]

Hi Mat,
I'd say go for it, when I was in my teens I bought a motor bike for 35 quid and traveled hundreds of miles on weekends and saw places that most of my mates never saw.

Having a cheap form of transport gave me the freedom to do other things than tour around also. (Hiking and climbing).

I firmly believe that the experience of riding a bike for a few years has made me a better than average car driver.

A biker gets a feel for surface conditions that drivers just never do. ( A few weeks ago we had our first light rain of the year that left the roads slick. A dumb sheila that slammed into a power pole was quoted as saying "I always go round that corner at 80").

At the age of 63 I bought a bike after a twenty year layoff. I had to sit the test again. I really enjoyed it, the modern way of teaching is great. Again just taking the bike course reinforced in me safety and awareness points that the average driver never gets close to.

When I was sixteen I after a weekend touring the English Lake District, at one end of the infamous M62 motorway I saw an accident site that left a motorbike in almost unrecognizable parts.

Early last year I took a 125cc bike trip over a high pass on Mt Merapi, central Java. Coming into Solo I saw a motorbike wedged under the back of a bus.

So to paraphrase jow104, 50 years driving experience and I have seen some terrible sights, but the highs outweigh the lows. I wouldn't change any of it.

Of course the sensible thing to do is listen to your parents Mat, eh!

We all did that didn't we?

Cheers
Bill

[RETIRED]

My Dad still rides a motorbike. His age? 79.

[Jim Carroll]

They are all jelous that you are doing something for yourself that they are not able to do.

Get the bike, Just be very carefull

[DavidG]

Go ride.
Get out of the cages that other people travel in.
Enjoy the fresh air.

BUT
Its a bit*h when it rains.
Cage drivers seem to want to kill you.
It hurts when you fall, and you will. :C

So
Check your insurance cover.
Check your medical insurance.
Check your will. :o

Go and enjoy.......:U

[pawnhead]

I've owned a few in my youth, and I'd like to have another one day.
You've got to know your own, and your bike's limits and not go too close to them, but one of the most important points is one that you've already made;
and have a good understanding of the fact that everyone else on the road wants you dead whether they know it or not, then you should be fine. Every car, and every side street, potentially has some idiot in it who's just not concentrating. The main problem being that bikes are hard to see, especially when it's an overcast day and you're against a dark cloud backdrop.

If I were to buy another bike, then I'd ride with my lights on at all times, and I'd get one of those reflective yellow/orange vests. You might not look as 'cool' as just wearing black leathers, but there's less chance of some other idiot becoming your undoing. There's a lot of vids circulating the web where 'blind' motorists just pull straight out, or chuck a U turn straight in front of a biker, with disastrous consequences.

[wheelinround]

Family of bike riders here 2 sons and FSIL dad rode I rode

if your friends and family feel they are such bad drivers and might cause you injury tell them to either drive safer or hand their licence in.

as everyone has said may as well stop living

have you given up drinking coke cause it can clean up a penny or clean out a radiator better than draino :no:

[flynnsart]

If you have driven a car for at least 2 years, and are not into racing on the road, or showing off, go for it. At least yu dont have to dodge kangaroos there:D Go do an advanced riders safety course (and let your worried parents and friends know you have passed it).

When I first walked in my parents house with my helmet in hand, My dad says "there goes another short term Australian". Then I told him I had been riding for three years! haha took me a while to get the courage up to tell them I bought one.:roll:

Donna

[dazzler]

Hi Matt

Bikes are safer than cars - if you have observation skills and are not a moron. They brake so much better and have the ability to change direction out of trouble.

Most of us are involved in collisions because we drive with no observation skills and so we let other motorists collide with us. When we allow this to happen, by not observing and assessing constantly, then we get crashed into and if we are on a bike our body gets smashed.

Do a defensive riding course that concentrates on observation. Forget one at a racetrack it needs to be on the road with an instructor showing you what goes on in the street.

have fun

cheers

dazzler

[woodbe]

If you want to do it, go ahead.

But please go into it with your eyes open.

Every longterm motorcyclist either has had and expects to have a major accident. They are faced with situations where no amount of skill can get them out of the impending event.

Maturity helps the rider avoid self-imposed prangs, but there is not much you can do about the other road users...

woodbe.

[Sebastiaan56]

Matt,

How to win them over, dunno, Im married to an RN and she has lots of horror stories. Some suggestions,

Go to a good riding school, return regularly for top ups. Learn defensive riding. Most race tracks have riders days. Great chance to get the racer out of your system. Tell em all that you are doing it. Join a club.

If it is going to be your commute, find all back roads to work, most of my mates that are gone got hit, no fault of their own. BTW Ive got plenty of mates still riding everywhere.

Get good riding gear ie: the best tyres, lid, jackets, armour that you can afford.

If you dont have any experience join a dirt club first. Best way to learn slippery bit riding.

Paranoia aside, go for it, best fun next to women a bloke can have,

Sebastiaan

[dazzler]

Your doing a steady 60ks. and a car comes out of a side turning without due care and hits you, if you survive you wont be doing much woodwork for a while.

No that is just as much your fault as the car that you hit. As you approach that intersection you should have seen the vehicle, assessed whether the driver had seen you, has he made eye contact, is his vehicle slowing. If these things arent happening then you slow until he has or you brake and allow him through. Constant scanning and assessment.

[echnidna]

Just tell them you are getting a bike,

and if they keep whinging you're gunna grow a big bushy beard as well.

[Gra]

Just tell them you are getting a bike,

and if they keep whinging you're gunna grow a big bushy beard as well.

oy whats wrong with a big bushy beard.....

[echnidna]

A big bushy beard needs a shaved head. :p

[Ruddigar]

The best bit of advice I received when I first got a motorcycle was from a long time family friend that had been riding bikes all his life.

He told me to always pretend you are invisible. Assume that no-one can see you and ride accordingly.

As my mate Dazzler said:

Constant scanning and assessment.

[NCArcher]

He told me to always pretend you are invisible. Assume that no-one can see you and ride accordingly. (Note: this does not work with speed cameras. DAMHIKT)

I got similar advice. Assume everyone else on the road is a d**khead.

Go for it. I've been riding bikes for nearly 30 years and i've only ever come off once (entirely my fault).
Stay alert and ride definsively but have fun. That's what bikes are for.
The rest of the family will get used to the idea. They may even see how much fun you're having and want to learn. (That seems to happen a lot in my experience)

[Gra]

A big bushy beard needs a shaved head. :p

Nah, then it just looks like they are compensating

[jow104]

No that is just as much your fault as the car that you hit. As you approach that intersection you should have seen the vehicle, assessed whether the driver had seen you, has he made eye contact, is his vehicle slowing. If these things arent happening then you slow until he has or you brake and allow him through. Constant scanning and assessment.

This

Dazzler, that was some good advice, sending a greeny, (if I can find out how to).

[DavidG]

Not wishing to scare you but it IS the car drivers you really have to watch out for.
Case:
1. Big line of stop, start traffic. Car behind me pulled to right. Drew up level with me and proceeded to move to left.
Object, shove me off the road and get one vehicle ahead.

2. Merging lane. Well past the form one lane point. Car in left lane proceeds to pass me on the left attempting to force me off the road.

Many other similar episodes. It is not that they do not see you, they just do not care about you.

Ride like you had eyes in your ar*e and watch out for every thing as it may want to kill you.

I have had several small fall-over type situations and one severe where a wallaby took out the front wheel on a narrow road.

[astrid]

No one has asked why he wants one?
speed, thrill , open air or environmental?
my sister bought a vesper for her son at 18, the logic being, cant speed and cant be influenced by drunk mates to do stupid things and he's only responsible for himself.
came off on wet tram tracks not too much damage to him or the vesper.
of course he's vulnerable to cars, but then so is a cyclist
and most car drivers are a bit more sensitive to a vesper.
I'm thinking of getting one myself. and the're cool

astrid

[fxst]

Been riding bikes for over 40 years and still find it the best form of transport.
Had a couple or 3 step offs but nothing broken,,,,I have slowed down a bit though and enjoy touring on my Ultra. Now a been a Ulyses club member for 17 years and we have blokes and blokesses in their 70's still riding :D Like others say trat all other road users as idiots and that you are invisible and there is no problem. Go for it and enjoy life. :2tsup:
Pete

[Poppa]

I had a Harley for a few years and if I had the money I'd get another one tomorrow. Just the best fun you can have with your clothes on. But, I agree with all the other comments about riding sensibly and carefully. I never planned on being the fastest rider out there (not on a Harley anyway!), but I did have a plan to be the oldest. Assume everyone in a cage is trying to kill you, develop the 200 metre look ahead, and watch everything on the road all at once. And you'll still come off. Just try not to kill yourself while you're having fun.

[AlexS]

I rode for about 40 years, only had 2 offs, both in the first couple of years, both in the rain, both my fault, neither serious. Also had a serious wake up call when I went sideways through a pedestrian Xing, nearly taking out about 3 of them. As the others said, pretend you're invisible, and always have an escape route. There are lots of things you can do on a bike that a car can't, in the way of manoeuvring, but it's usually best not to, because cars don't expect you to. But sometimes it's very useful.

These days the compulsory training to get a licence is much better than it was in my day. Still, you'll learn much more once you have a licence and get out on the road. Just don't get over confident.

Since SWMBO & I both used to ride, it would have been hypocritical to ask the eldest unmarried not to get a bike, but to see her at Eastern Ck. on the (then) fastest production bike in the world puts your heart in your mouth.

[graemet]

Go for it!
My family thought I was crazy when I got my Ls (learner permit) at 65. The now compulsory rider training was definitely worthwhile, and I'm now having a ****load of fun on a 125 scooter. Had one prang while learning where a cager decided to change lanes on top of me, it hurt the bike more than me, but the insurance company was great. There are only two kinds of bikers - those who have had an accident and those who haven't had an accident yet. If I had done the final training lessons, the accident probably wouldn't have happened.
Get as much advice from other bikers as you can, ignore the nonriding fraternity, be conspicuous, ride defensively and have fun.
Cheers
Graeme

[jow104]

I have just worked it out.:oo:

Only the surviving riders have posted a reply.

None of the dead riders have come to give you their advice.

[pawnhead]

Well if you asked them before they died, then they'd most likely be enthusiastic about bike riding. And my opinion (for what it's worth) is that they don't exist anymore, therefore they can have no regrets.
Life would be pretty miserable if you went through it fearing death. No matter how many marshmallows you wrap yourself up in, the grim reaper will catch us all in the end anyway.

It's the quality of life at this very instant in time, that's always of paramount importance. Tomorrow does not exist until it is 'now', and life is an accumulation of yesterdays, and dreams of tomorrows in a cocktail of the 'now'. A more important question is 'How full is your cup?' and not 'How slowly and carefully do you sip from it?'.

You may well die before you wake, and that's nothing to be scared of.

IMO, it will be just like before you were born. :)

[jemmy]

Scratch that, I am getting a motorcycle. :~

Problem 1. Family and friends.

So I happen to drop that I was wanting to get a motorcycle and now everyone is treating me like I'm crazy. They seem convinced that I'd be roadkill the second I hit the road on one. As much as I appreciate their concern, I don't see it happening.

My view is that yes, it is more dangerous than driving a car, but if you pay attention, wear safety gear, and have a good understanding of the fact that everyone else on the road wants you dead whether they know it or not, then you should be fine.

They don't seem to agree with me and have went so far as to threaten the life of my future motorcycle. :o

So what do you guys think? Am I as mental as they think? Are cycles really such death traps?

And if not then how do I acclimate them to the idea?

I'm really surprised by the strength of their reaction, they are really against it. I really don't think I should get a bike until they've adjusted some.

(note, my mother works at a major hospital and fields several motorcycle accidents a week so thats kind of prejudiced her against them a bit)
hi there, there is nothing wrong with getting a bike, but it`s the assholes you meet on the road (i.e.) a lorry. look at me now?:~

[Matt88s]

I'm sorry Jemmy, I really am. People are such louts, can't be bothered to watch out for others, what do they care, not like they're be hurt when their in a lorry. Bloody buggers. Reminds me of something a young ignorant fool once said after hitting two cars head on in his huge Dodge pickup truck and putting four people in the hospital after they'd been removed with the jaws of life. After hopping out without a scratch on him he said in his defence, "its a truck ya know, it doesn't handle like a car so when I had to swerve..."

He swerved because the person in front of him brake checked him. The person in front brake checked him because he had been bullying them and riding their bumper trying to get them to go faster. :~

Everyone, sorry, I did not mean to start and then drop this thread. We've actually been out of power, terrible ice store came though here, we were out of power for the last couple days, terrible tree damage. 27+ deaths. Something like 5-600,000 out of power.

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u274/JamesBondsAAB/matthew5.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u274/JamesBondsAAB/020-5.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u274/JamesBondsAAB/417.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u274/JamesBondsAAB/315.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u274/JamesBondsAAB/368.jpg

Family is still violently opposed to me getting a bike. I'm really torn here. I don't want to hurt my family, nor make them do anything that would hurt family relations, but I feel very strongly about getting a bike. It's a mess. I think I'm going to go crazy. Can't live with them, can't live without them. :no:

[DavidG]

Don't think you would want to be on a bike in that weather. :o

[martrix]

are they your own pics Matt?

Looks pretty awesome, though I guess the consequences of such a wild event are no fun.

[Matt88s]

are they your own pics Matt?

Looks pretty awesome, though I guess the consequences of such a wild event are no fun.


All except the second one, my brother took that one I think.

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u274/JamesBondsAAB/277.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u274/JamesBondsAAB/Matthew.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u274/JamesBondsAAB/233.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u274/JamesBondsAAB/334.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u274/JamesBondsAAB/236.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u274/JamesBondsAAB/240.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u274/JamesBondsAAB/402.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u274/JamesBondsAAB/463.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u274/JamesBondsAAB/327.jpg

I have a couple hundred pictures. Digital cameras are nice in that you can just shoot, shoot, shoot.

We've had a very mild winter, as you can tell by the green grass encapsulated by ice. The sap had no time to drain out of the trees, so when the ice storm hit it was brutal for them. I could stand out on the porch and hear trees exploding all over, it sounded like a war.

[Sebastiaan56]

Hi Matt,

I was in Canada for a severe winter about 25 years ago. I remember the hoar frost, one of the most incredible sights ever. I was going to hitch from Edmenton to Vancouver, my travelling companion, a canookie, put me straight real quick.

Its a difficult environment to live in but oh so beautiful.

Sebastiaan

[Colin Howkins]

Matt,

I am coming up to 62. Have ridden two wheeled things most of my life and still do. Motorbike & bicycles.

Yes I have had accidents, but nothing too grievious. I do believe it is imperative you develop a hightened and innate road sense, and never let your concentration lapse.

I believe you must ride to be seen. If you are seen you will not get hit by other road users. A lot of people ride both motorbikes and bicycles trying not to get hit and in so doing don't allow themselves to be clearly visible.

I would encourage you to take advanced riding instruction, where you are taught to ride correctly, corner correctly, and how to fall. I know a lot of people go on about safety gear, on a bicycle, does lycra pass as safety gear? and yet i have seen speeds of up to 100kmh on a bicycle on long downhill runs.

Be confident, be aware, be cogniscant of your own skills and the capability of the machine you are riding

Colin Howkins
Graceville Qld Australia

[jow104]

Matt I read one of your other posts.

Dont you think your misses also comes into consideration when discussing taking up riding a motorbike?

QUOTE.

Vegemite and Marmite are basically the same, both are basically byproducts of the brewing industry, Marmite has a smoother texture though. I used to use Vegemite but for some reason its gotten extremely hard to get over here, so I've converted to Marmite, and found I like it just as well if not better.

Bovril is similar to both but is made from beef extract.

I seemed to remember some stink about Vegemite being banned due to excessive Folic acid content or some such thing, but I think that turned out to be urban myth, I don't think you can get too much Folic acid anyway, isn't it just another water soluble B vitamin?

None the less its almost impossible to find around here now.

Well, I suppose I'd better go tell the missus I'm preggers.
__________________
End quote

[astrid]

lookguys
Bikes whether cycle, motor or scooter are a good move in the current climate crisis.
the more who use them the safer it will get with dedicated lanes etc.
I am seriosly thinking of getting a scooter
the drive into work costs 20% of my income and it takes ages.
astrid

[ian]

having a mid life crises are we?

have you ever riden a bicycle any significant distance at speed (say averaging > 25 MPH?)
have you ever riden a motor cycle?

the first thing you should know is unlike a car or truck, preparation and weight distribution when riding a bike is critical
watch a few rounds of the 500cc world motorcycle championship
take careful note of how the riders are continually adjusting their riding position to corner, accelerate, brake — they do this to keep the bike stable.
while you wont be riding at anything like the racers' speed you have to develop an instinctive ability to keep the bike balanced through every maneouvre you make.
if you don't prepare before every corner it's only a matter of time before you comne off.

locally (my state in Australia) you have to take a two day course in rider awareness before you can get a permit to learn to ride a motorbike

see if you can find a similar course where you are.


ian

[astrid]

sorry Ian,
Who were you addressing this to?
my answer to you if it was me, is yes yes and yes
Ive ridden small cc bikes and scooters in various conditions and terrains
and I believe that in vic you have to do a bit more than days to get a p plate.
please dont patronise.

astrid (we dont have an icon for mildly amused)

[HappyHammer]

Hi Mat,
I'd say go for it, when I was in my teens I bought a motor bike for 35 quid and traveled hundreds of miles on weekends and saw places that most of my mates never saw.
Buy a 4WD and go places road bikes can't go.:2tsup:

HH.

[HappyHammer]

the more who use them the safer it will get with dedicated lanes etc.
Will never have dedicated lanes for motorbikes and motorcyclists wouldn't want them.:no:

We could go for the melee of 2 wheel transport ala India or most Asian countries much safer.:q

HH.

[ian]

astrid

it was intended for Matt, not you
I should have been clearer, I'm sorry

here in NSW it's two days training before you are allowed to sit the knowledge test which you must pass before you get your Ls

the following is lifted from the NSW RTA web site and is to help Matt88 decide if he wants to persue getting a motorcycle
learning to ride a motorcycle does require a high level of balance, co-ordination and concentration and not everyone has these skills. If you can ride a bicycle and drive a manual car you probably have the necessary skills


ian

[jow104]

astrid

it was intended for Matt, not you
I should have been clearer, I'm sorry

here in NSW it's two days training before you are allowed to sit the knowledge test which you must pass before you get your Ls

the following is lifted from the NSW RTA web site and is to help Matt88 decide if he wants to persue getting a motorcycle
learning to ride a motorcycle does require a high level of balance, co-ordination and concentration and not everyone has these skills. If you can ride a bicycle and drive a manual car you probably have the necessary skills


ian

Matt is a yank!

[astrid]

apologies accepted Ian
I shouldn't be so sensitive.
HH I assume you are possum stiring, no one can be that dim.
and I'm not sure mat is a yank?
astrid

[HappyHammer]

I shouldn't be so sensitive.
Here here.:doh:

HH I assume you are possum stiring, no one can be that dim.
I never touched that possum:U...... what do you mean by dim?:~

and I'm not sure mat is a yank?
Depsite his location being USA?:U

HH.

[Matt88s]

Matt I read one of your other posts.

Dont you think your misses also comes into consideration when discussing taking up riding a motorbike?

QUOTE.

Vegemite and Marmite are basically the same, both are basically byproducts of the brewing industry, Marmite has a smoother texture though. I used to use Vegemite but for some reason its gotten extremely hard to get over here, so I've converted to Marmite, and found I like it just as well if not better.

Bovril is similar to both but is made from beef extract.

I seemed to remember some stink about Vegemite being banned due to excessive Folic acid content or some such thing, but I think that turned out to be urban myth, I don't think you can get too much Folic acid anyway, isn't it just another water soluble B vitamin?

None the less its almost impossible to find around here now.

Well, I suppose I'd better go tell the missus I'm preggers.
__________________
End quote



Nope. None whatsoever.
























Only because I don't have a missus though. :U That was a joke, I think someone said something regarding pregnant women and the high folic acid content in vegemite and that lead to my jokeing about going to tell the missus I was pregnant.

Negative, I'm to young for that, not that I'm a party animal or anything. I actually lead a very boring existence. I work, I go to college, trying to get a degree in physical thereapy but I'm doubting I get accepted into the pt program, so that probably means I bounce around this next year and probably pick up a degree in bio or sonography tech or such, then reapply next year to the pt program, see if I get in then.

Yes, I am a "Yank" :C and around here they have what is called the MSF course, or Motorcycle Safety Foundation course. They have one for beginners that is a 2 day event, then they have a whole slew of others for intermediate and advanced and whatnot.

I'd for sure take one if for no other reason than the insurance discount you get for having done so. :q

I've always had what I would call a "motorcyclists" attitude towards driving though.
<o></o>
When I was taking my driving test, my instructor dropped the saying, “If it happens to you, its your fault”, and I’ve always taken that too heart. If you have an accident, no matter what or who caused it, its your fault because you let it happen to you. I’ve seen people sit like ducks and let people plow them when they could have easily gotten out of the way, but for most people, it doesn’t occur to them that you don’t have to “let” accidents happen.

My motto is “don’t let them hit you”. If for no other reason that, 1 it’s going to hurt, 2 its going to wreck your car and I’m rather attached to my cars, 3 it’s a royal pain to deal with the insurance companies and they never want to give you what your car is worth, 4 even if you have the best insurance in the world, it still takes them time to process and get your check and then you have to go find a replacement vehicle, IMO, a wreck is something to avoid really, really hard.

Shortly after I started driving I came across a book called, “Drive to Survive”, and it had a major impact on my life. It taught how to properly adjust your mirrors, (you don’t need to see the side of your car, you can be assured its still there by your butt being still firmly planted in its seat, you do however need to see your blind spots, so you adjust them until you are right past seeing the side of your car, then by the time a vehicle pulls out of sight on your mirror they are already entering your peripheral side vision, it works very well. Also it taught situation awareness, always being aware of what and who was around you, as well as a escape avenue where you go could if you needed to maneuver around someone/something, the trick is to know that avenue is open and clear before you know you need it.

There was a little game in the book, where every time someone snuck up on you that you didn’t know about etc, you put a little orange sticker on your mirror, and pretty soon you were pretty aware of how unaware you were because those little stickers pile up pretty fast.

The book teaches a lot of other things though, how to properly adjust your seat in relation to the wheel, how to corner properly at speed, how to do maneuvers such as bootlegger turns etc, how to ram people to take them off the road, how to get through blockades and highjacking, how to tell if you’re being followed and what to do, etc, etc.

I'm big on researching things a knowing everthing there is to know before taking on a project, so I've been reading books on motorcycle handing and safety as well. It's good to know some stuff like don't ride the middle of the road where all the oil is, it takes at least 30 of steady rain to wash the contaminants and oil off the roadways, and how to get out of a rut if your wheel should get caught and be tracking down a road seem or such, proper cornering, etc, etc.

[jow104]

OK Matt.
I myself will moderate my tone down a bit. The USA is a different driving proposition to Europe & ~Australia (I have done 30k in the USA)
and the roads in the USA have more driving space than the other two mentioned continents. Your interstates are 3 lanes each direction etc. over thousands of miles.

Mind you the legal speed limits are lower in the USA which can cause frustration I am sure to young bloods on a bike.


I think your weather patterns are more extreme so a motorcar I think will most probably come out tops in the end.
Stay safe.

[Eli]

My .02, since I have experience here and there on the road.

All of it has been good advice.
The only things that I might personally add.

Of the bikeys I've known, those that were least at risk IMO were the ones that started early and learned well and took it seriously. A lot of other friends who did it because they had a screw loose and were nutty killed themselves. Natural selection at work. Overconfidence I think was a big factor, not to generalize.

Learn how to lay it down, because you will have to at some point. Even if you are sentimentally attached to your bike (as you say you are to your cars), it's better to have that hunk of steel hit first if you can.

Get loud pipes. In some places in the states they are illegal. But there's no better way to let people know you're there on the freeway.

You will come off it someday. Be ready as if it can happen anytime. Don't be complacent.

I don't ride. I've got two young kids and even though I've always been above statistics, I have to err on the side of caution now for their sake. When I was younger I didn't have the responsibility.

Enjoy it, as others have said.

[billbeee]

Buy a 4WD and go places road bikes can't go.:2tsup:

HH.

HH,
Thanks for that snippet of information, I just can't think how after living and working in the NT for the last 40 years in many remote communities, that it has slipped under my radar.

"4WD" eh! I'll google it straight away.

Right, gotcha, I know what you're talking about now. You mean the huge petrol guzzlers that the gray nomads drive. I saw a few of them when I pushed biked into some remote spots in Kakadu the year before last, only after about 10am though, so that gave me at least 3 hours riding in perfect peace. Yeah they are great!

Cheers
Bill

[DavidG]

Buy a 4WD and go places road bikes can't go.:2tsup:

HH.
:rotfl: You have not seen where I have taken a bike.
The 4wd would be stuck at the start.

[billbeee]

lookguys
Bikes whether cycle, motor or scooter are a good move in the current climate crisis.
the more who use them the safer it will get with dedicated lanes etc.
I am seriosly thinking of getting a scooter
the drive into work costs 20% of my income and it takes ages.
astrid
Hi Astrid,
I agree entirely.

The problem that I see with riding a motorbike or push bike here in Aus. and I suspect most developed countries, is that a lot of last two generations of drivers out there have gone straight from school to work driving a car. They have never had to even consider using a pushbike or a scooter to get to work.

This has put onto our roads a hell of a lot of intolerant yobs. Just as likely to squeeze you closer than give you room if you are riding and not driving. (Or even indulge in that grand old Aussie pastime of throwing a beer can at you.)

I have ridden in some congested places in SE Asia, but after the initial shock, I found it was far easier to get around on a bike there, rather than here. Riding in the same density of traffic in Australia would scare the cr*p out of me! Their drivers still have that mind set of looking out for smaller and slower road users. They have just about all of them 'been there and done that'.

In SE Asia they are catching up to us fast though, the vehicle is definitely a sign of status, as it is here. Let's hope it starts to change.

Cheers
Bill

[pawnhead]

I have ridden in some congested places in SE Asia, but after the initial shock, I found it was far easier to get around on a bike there, rather than here. Riding in the same density of traffic in Australia would scare the cr*p out of me! Their drivers still have that mind set of looking out for smaller and slower road users. They have just about all of them 'been there and done that'.On that topic, check out this video that I stumbled on a while back. It's quite amazing:

Amazing Street Traffic in Saigon (http://www.maniacworld.com/amazing_traffic.html)

[Matt88s]

Well, its turning into WWIII around here. :C

I've went from surprised to really hurt by their response. I would have thought better of them, they are my family after all. I understand they feel strongly about the issue, but they could have went about expressing their feelings in a better way.

I don't even care about the bike really anymore, its past that.

I've always been a good kid. I never drank, partied, or did drugs, I did well in school, perhaps not straight A's, but a good A-B student. When my parents broke up some years back and my family fragmented, I stayed with my mom and little brother while my older brother and sis moved out and basically abandoned us. I've went with my brother to visitation with his/our father every week for going on probably five years now. I'm busy, I have school 3/4/5 days a week and work another 3/4/5 days a week depending on the semester, I don't want to see him any more than my brother, but I've always been very loyal and felt honor bound to go with him so he doesn't have to go alone, quite frankly my father is a bit nuts. Excepting my father I believe very strongly blood is thicker than water and you stick together to the end, my brother and sis leaving hurt greatly. I help around the house, I work outside of the house, I laid in almost 2000' of fence basically by myself over the last summer or so. I reroofed our house. I painted one of our cars. I do all the work on our vehicles, oil changes, belts, water pumps, transmissions, everything from top to bottom. I've had to put up with my little brother pulling the hellion thing hitting the terrible teens and pulling stunts I would have never dreamed of doing being the good little chap I was as a kid, I'm put basically in the position of being a "father" figure, which he resents and truthfully I resent a bit myself, I've decided I'm never having children, they turn your hair grey and give you indigestion and stress you beyond capacity, quite frankly I don't know that I even want to get married, I'm going to stick with the bachelor thing for a while, its nice.

Anyhow, basically I've been told, "You're not getting a bike, and if you do get a bike we'll take it apart and cut the tires" and I've been guilted about how I could even consider such a thing and how I could even keep mentioning it and don't you know how much we need you? My little brother got so mad he was cussing at me and refuses to ride with me(in my car), my sister who I see once every few months made a list of all her clients who have various body parts missing from motorcycle accidents, my older brother expressed his disappointment and surprise that I would even consider such a thing and don't get me started on my mother. I have people changing computer desktops to horrible scenes of motorcycle accidents and victims. (if you want to see my favorite I'll tack it on the end of the post, he should have worn a full face helmet, something like 30-40% of motorcyclists land on the chin area if they crash, Full Face Helmet, wear one and I mean it :~)

And how old am I again? 12? 15? 16?

No I'm 22, I pull my weight, I thought I was an adult. I wasn't asking permission, I just happend to drop one day that I was thinking of getting a bike and BAM sheiite mountain dropped on my head.

It's like I'm evil and I'm doing this intentionally to hurt them and if I get a bike they won't love me anymore.

I thought, well first off I thought I was rather grown up, but in the case I'm not, I thought that was part of growing up, making ones own decisions.

I'm very reasonable. Talk to me like a person. Express your concerns, maybe ask me not to do this, tell me it would worry you very much, and try to argue in a rational quite way. I respond very well to that approach.

Don't tell me no I'm not going to do get a bike and act like I'm going to die the first time I go out and insult my driving abilities and, meh, I don't know, they just really went about it the wrong way. (ps, I'm also the only one in the family who hasn't had a automobile accident, even my little brother's had one, he drove the lawn mover into the side of the truck at full speed one time before he had even drove a car, thats an automobile accident, I'm sticking to that :p )

It's like all these years of being a good kid and student and sticking by them dissapeared in an instant. I dunno, I'm to sensitive to such things maybe. Or maybe its because I've never had a fight like this with my family. I've really never had a fight with them.

I didn't even know they were that touchy about this subject. I've always planned on getting a bike basically my whole life, I never really talked about it, it was just there, knowing someday I'd get a bike. I don't feel the need for speed, its just another form of transportation, its economical, looks like fun.

I'm big on self reliance and skill, motorcycles appeal to me, yes, is that a crime?

I don't go into things willy nilly, I research and make careful considered decisions. If I got a bike and decided all my research and planning aside, this wasn't for me and was dangerous to boot, I'd sell the bike and move on. I am a logical thinking person regardless of common census that states otherwise.

I'm not a nerd with coke bottle glasses, I can ride anything with wheels or feet or hooves.

They've expressed "concern" that perhaps due to all the stress I've been under with school and whatnot, that perhaps I'm "not thinking straight" or a bit unrational right now and I should listen to them and take their advice.

You'd think I told them I planned to buy a 1500cc sport bike and how I could be at school in 8 min flat if I drove at its top speed of 213mph.

No, I expressed my interest in a 652cc single cylinder thumper cruiser that has just enough power to keep up with the big boys and out of traffic's way while still turning an economical 60 mpg, its top speed? 88 mph. Hardly a speed machine.

The truth be told I have been under a lot of stress and had a h'ell of a semester and the LAST thing I need right now is people questioning my sanity. I'm already questioning enough things right now, Jeepers.

I don't want to hurt anyone. I don't. I'm not doing this to be rebellious. It really hurts me how upset everyone is getting about this. In the interest of family preservation I would scratch getting a bike. But this has really opened my eyes to an ugly undercurrent that I would have rather not been aware of. This was something that was really important to me. I wasn't taken seriously, my sanity was questioned, my driving ability was questioned, I've had people get so upset they were swearing at me, and I'm just like, whoa, even I'm not this worked up about this?

I'm devastatingly practical. Cussing at me won't do a thing. Logic. Rational argument. Treating me like a person. Recognizing I'm an adult and although I value you and my family and your imput and concerns, and if you give them to me in the proper way I will yes I will factor them into my decision, in the end, I am an adult and it is my decision.

I can't get a bike with them feeling and acting this way.

Already it feels like a little piece of me has died though.

They don't seem to realize some decisions have to be left up to the individual, you can't bludgeon or guilt someone into doing what you want.

I feel resentment because I was forced and guilted into this choice, but I don't want to feel it, I hate that I do, I've always been the good kid, I don't want to be anything else, this is the only thing we have ever really disagreed with.

It's like there's a double standard as well. Other people in my family do stupid things all the time. My brother flew past the house earlier going full speed on the tractor backwards pushing a wooden pallet back to the shed with the box blade. Now tell me that isn't dangerous?

I don't wish anyone any ill over this but I am very hurt and don't know how to express it or what to do about it. I suppose I need to get over the bike deal somehow and move on, but its going to be very hard to let go, its going to be very hard to just let it drop, its going to be very hard to not harbor any resentment over it.

Of course I could just go out and buy a bike and say in your face but I'm not that kind of person and I do worry about other people and think about their feelings and don't want anyone worrying about me or forcing anyone to do anything stupid like tear up my bike, they'd feel bad about it afterwards and it would just cause more trouble.

This is such a lose lose situation. I never saw it coming. That sounds familiar.

Oh yes, the pic, mustn't forget. If you're squeamish, don't look or scroll quickly.

[astrid]

Matt,
I dont know you or your situation of course except what you post.
It could be that your mum and little brother are morbidly afraid of loosing you,
and despite them not seemongly appreiciating you, in fact you are a father/husband substitute.
what they are actually doing is emotional bullying.
You are only 22 and as youve said , your a good kid not a grown man with adult responsibilities allthough youve tried to shoulder these too long.

If you let them bully you over this, it will be the same with every major decision you need to make in your adult life, moving out of home, traveling,
even your choice of partner (when you want one) .

The issue of the bike is irrelevant, I think they would behave like this in any "threatening" situation.
So my aunty advise is,
let the issue drop for now
But quiety and firmly push ahead with the plan to get one.
by this I dont mean go about it secretly, just make prepareations.
If there is a motor cycle training school around they have bikes for you to learn on, enroll in one and just get on with it.
Dont discuss it, just do it and refuse any confrontation or arguement about it, in other words, quietly assert youself.
This also shows that you understand their safty concerns and are being mature and thoughtful about it.

Emotional bullies, like any others, back down when faced up to.
It can be hard on you and you familly as they will do the "we dont understand, dont you care about us? routine"
Just be firm.
By BP partner is now, standing up to a very similar situation and is slowly feeling stronger and happier. Its taken him 48 years to recognise what was going on.
I dont know how to send a link:? but google "family bullying by a serial bully"

I am sure that your folks dont recognise what theyre doing, but thats what it sounds like.

Its a holiday time, take some time out for yourself and i dont mean in the shed1
Go to a gallery or somwhere

take care of yourself
ASTRID

[ian]

Matt

truely, why do you want a bike ?

is it economical transport or do you have visions of joining a motor cycle club like the Hell's Angles, Desparados, or Coffin Cheaters.

your description of the proposed bike and the reason for getting that model suggests to me the latter — I wouldn't mind betting the family's opposition is really about "we don't want our son/brother turning into a bikie gang member who never washes, is covered in tatts and deals in drugs"

as to your choice of a first bike, locally you can't legally ride a bike like you describe until you've held your bike licience for 2 or 3 years. From memory the limit is 250cc.
the reasoning being that learning to ride and dodge the potholes, oil patches, loose bits of cardboard, painted line markings, pavement reflectors, etc and avoid the idiot/blind/irresponsible car drivers, and second guess all other road users is a process that continues for some years after you are deemed a sufficiently competent not to need Learner (= give me a wide berth) plates


If I may be frank, reading some of what you've posted suggests, at least to me, that you are not a person prepared to ignore minor trangressions. Rather you are a person who will insist on enforcing your rights or will respond in kind to a transgression no matter how minor — I'm not being critical but if you carry that attitude with you while riding a bike, the dude in the truck will just run you over.
Think about it


take care of yourself and get a big bike after you've learnt all there is to know about handling a smaller one.

ian

[q9]

While I can understand where their objections might come from, I can't understand such a response. My parents realised the futility in objecting, and put trust in my age and judgement enough to be at least OK with it, and if my girlfriend had objected like that she wouldn't currently be my Mrs :laughing1:

Dunno what the answer is, but it seems like they think you are obligated to behave a certain way for them, and honestly, that is bull plop. Living your life to make other people happy is not what life is about. It is a path paved with futility and unhappiness.

Well that's my view in any case.

[Matt88s]

Thanks Astrid, I think you are partially right in they are very afraid to lose me, and perhaps so much that they went a bit overboard in dealing with this.


Matt

truely, why do you want a bike ?

is it economical transport or do you have visions of joining a motor cycle club like the Hell's Angles, Desparados, or Coffin Cheaters.

your description of the proposed bike and the reason for getting that model suggests to me the latter — I wouldn't mind betting the family's opposition is really about "we don't want our son/brother turning into a bikie gang member who never washes, is covered in tatts and deals in drugs"

as to your choice of a first bike, locally you can't legally ride a bike like you describe until you've held your bike licience for 2 or 3 years. From memory the limit is 250cc.
the reasoning being that learning to ride and dodge the potholes, oil patches, loose bits of cardboard, painted line markings, pavement reflectors, etc and avoid the idiot/blind/irresponsible car drivers, and second guess all other road users is a process that continues for some years after you are deemed a sufficiently competent not to need Learner (= give me a wide berth) plates


If I may be frank, reading some of what you've posted suggests, at least to me, that you are not a person prepared to ignore minor trangressions. Rather you are a person who will insist on enforcing your rights or will respond in kind to a transgression no matter how minor — I'm not being critical but if you carry that attitude with you while riding a bike, the dude in the truck will just run you over.
Think about it


take care of yourself and get a big bike after you've learnt all there is to know about handling a smaller one.

ian

Nope, no interest in joining Hell's Angles, Desparados, or Coffin Cheaters.

I spend about a third of my income on transportation, probably more if you factor in parts and whatnot. With a bike I could halve or third that, and since I run on a tight budget, that appealed to me. I drove almost 30,000 miles last year.

As for my choice of bike, I started off looking at Honda Rebels, and no the name had nothing to do with the choice, I saw one outside of a cafe one day and it looked like a neat little bike. I did some research, found out it was a 250, and said to be a good starter bike, and so I went to look at some. I was told, that due to my size, 6' or so, and weight, 240-250lbish, that I was really a little too big for it, and I found out it would not go highway speeds.

The college I go to has four campuses, they are situated so that you can easily and quickly access them from highways as many people travel a long ways in from rural areas to attend, would it make any sense to get a bike that I couldn't take on the highway when I'm on the highway almost every day? I didn't think so.

So I scratched that idea. Then one day I saw an advert for bike, and looked it up to see what it was. That was my first into to the Suzuki S40. Although it turned out they had mislisted it, and it wasn't actually a S40, I still thought, wow, what a great bike. It was simple, it has a single cylinder, a single carburetor, a belt drive, its simplicity at its best.

This may not seem like much to you, but for me, who spends countless hours tearing into engines and transmissions and just in general trying to hunt down why something is not working, often not having any idea how to do it, simply grabbing a manual and hey, lets teach ourselves how to rebuild a transmission today type approach, well, to me thats the greatest thing since sliced cheese, something with a single cylinder, a carb, and a drive that requires no maintenance other that periodical replacement. Maybe it would reduce my time spent under a car at 3am in the morning with an exam later that morning and no clue what I'm doing but just wrenching away because I have little choice but to do or die.

As far as legalities, to the best of my knowledge, its very basic, you show up, to take a written test, you drive around the block, they take your license, trash it, and hand you another with a little "M" endorsement on it, and away you go. You could take the test on Jay Leno's jet powered bike if you wanted, to the best of my knowledge, the only bike restrictions in the state of Oklahoma are if you are under 16. Although you can't drive a car until 16 or maybe now 18, they will let you drive a <250cc bike or scooter around starting at some crazy young age like 14 or 15. Now that I do think is nuts. :o Whats the reasoning behind that? Well, they're to young to drive, they might hurt someone with a car, so lets give them a scooter, that way the only person they hurt is theirself. :C

This is what I wanted, I even found a brand new old stock one, an 05, for $2500 on a local dealers lot. I figured if I waited until the new year rolled around, perhaps I could bargin them down even more. Probably not though, thats quite the steal, they go for more than that used.

http://www.suzukicycles.com/images/ProductImages/colorVariations/500/S40K7_White_FFFFFF.jpg
2007 Boulevard S40

I respect my family and I won't go and blatantly go aginst their wishes, they've raised me well, but now is the time to step back a little and to respect my judgment and trust me to make the right choices, they can't make them for me for the rest of my life.

That they can't see that puts me in a bad spot. :no:

[astrid]

look like a nice bike,
do take that training course though
1 it will help your family get used to th idea before you actually get one.
2 it will be safer for you.
3 it may reasure them a little.

take care and have some fun.

re the computer screen saver photos.
lock your computer.

Astrid

[ian]

OK Matt, I believe you, the bike's for economical transport.

Now I'm a little biased, the people I know who ride bikes ride something like a BMW R1200 plus they have either a 125cc scooter for pottering around town or a dedicated off-road bike. One friend is working his way around Australia driving a 6T van with his two bikes in the back!

The process for getting a bike licience you describe used to apply here.
Then it got changed to one where you have to take a two day training course before you get a learner's permit — and this applies to everyone no matter how long you have held a car licience.
The impact has been a dramatic drop in bike rider casualties.
so as Astrid said, do take that training course

take care and have fun

ian

BTW I hope that you with a bike you will be able to park a lot closer to the lecture room door

[brettsyoung]

What I don't get is why you're bothering to tell anyone. Just get one fer chrissakes. It's not like you want to buy a howitzer or a pair of rhinos. It's just a bloody bike! If you workshop the purchase of a toothbrush with the family it'll end in tears - xmas lunch is testament to that.

[Optimark]

Astrid, your idea of a scooter, perhaps a Vespa, for running around Melbourne is quite sound. I would not suggest you attach a large top box on the back, perhaps one that can only carry a helmet. A large(ish) topbox on the rear usually makes the handling a bit suss, you don’t need that.
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o></o>
Small wheels that are on most fifties Italian type scooters, or their modern equivalents, are sometimes a handful with tramlines and ruts that follow the road. If you get a more modern designed scooter with slightly larger wheels, it usually handles better and should feel more secure in tight situations.
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My first 6 motorcycles were scooters, Vespas and Lambrettas, all fifties and sixties models.
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Matt, I would suggest you get a machine that your frame is comfortable sitting on for an hour or more at a time. As you will be travelling between campuses and wherever, you may like to add some saddlebags (panniers in Oz). The throwover type are perfectly good for your usage and have the advantage of not being left on the bike.
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Both of you remember to purchase some reasonably good but cheapish waterproofs, especially waterproof trousers, there is nothing worse than a wet crutch, it’s also cold with the wind rushing along.
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I’ve been riding bike since I was 16 legally, prior to that I
I bought my first motorcar when I was 33 to see what it was like, had it for 6 months but I only did 300 kilometres in it and as I was always charging the battery, I sold it.
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I have clocked up over 1,500,000 kilometres on motorcycles around the world including the USA, Europe, especially Germany and quite a few parts of Asia.
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I look forward to seeing either of you on the road one
day.

One last thing, always wear gloves no matter how hot it is. When you step off, you always push your hands out to break the fall.

Mick.

[astrid]

Thanks for your tips.
My nephew came off on wet tram track, he was ok vespa got abit scuffed.
I would only use in fine weather and take the back roads.
I only have to do city road and spencer in the city.
First i have to save the money:U

Astrid

[Optimark]

Astrid, not a problem.

Mick.

[Ivan in Oz]

G'day Astrid,

If you are considering a Vespa;
then you might also consider one of the Larger wheeled Scooter type "Bikes"
from Yamaha, Honda, and I believe, Suzuki.

These have reasonable Power and the larger wheels, are benificial.

I have riden Motorcycles on the road, for the past 40+ years:B

Something I have found,
is that I have to become AGRESSIVE:((
when I ride down to/in Brisbane.
The Motorists/Traffic has become quite unforgiving.

By AGRESSIVE I mean to at least keep up with the surrounding Traffic.

Last time I's in Brisvagas
I was near hit; as well as abused............WHY????
Stopped for Pedistrians ON a Zebra Crossing.............Go figure:?

One Car driver left Skid Marks on the road behind me;
I left Skid Marks elsewhere:-:-:rolleyes:

This is a LOT like what I ride:-
http://lh4.google.com/jussi.k.koskinen/Rwfv2jj-5kI/AAAAAAAAAOw/BG6IrdWb2PY/Joonas%20ja%20Vaari%20Mp%201%20270504.jpg?imgmax=512
No! Not me though :no: :no:

[astrid]

Thanks Ivan
but a fatter wheeled scooter is for me,
suits my style and age better.
astrid:U

[NewLou]

Gidday:D

I didnt own a car until I was 28 rode road bikes throughout my 20's n was into big bore Jap Bikes I shot around on a ZZR 1100 n before that owned a CBR 600.............

I really enjoyed the biking scene and the subculture...................Loved going to rallies the GP n taking off with friends easy rider style

The bad news is my list of injuries from motorcycle accidents I've had a few spills over the years n one life threatening write off (I've survived 3........ 2 in cars n 1 on a bike)

Dont let anyone tell u riding motorcycles is safe Nurses in Australia call bikers temporary australians N when u go or even worse get run into on a motorcycle u go bigtime...........

The injuries I recieved from my last accident were as follows:

1 Closed head injury (Yup thats mild brain damage)
1 broken pelvis
1 fractured back
1 full left wrist rewire n construction
A right knee full of 20 stitches
Destroyed left ankle tendon

Wasent fun spending to much time in a hospital bed not being able to walk. I rode for years after this accident but eventually retired from bikes after having my beautiful daughter............

Its something I miss but have decided to hang up the rossies n helmet for the kids..............My advise is go for it but consider the risks n wether your willing to cop the potential consequences................

REgards Lou :-

[astrid]

if youve had 3 major accidents in cars or bike your on the high end of the scale.
I'm nearly 50 never had a car accident
have ridden scooters quite a bit in the greek islands in my youth never came near a prang.
as others have said all acidents are your own fault.
what was it .. stay alert stay alive.
but then again, I'm a female of the species

touch wood

Astrid

[woodbe]

I think I posted before in this thread, but I'm with Lou.

If you ride a bike, you must expect a major prang, hospital and hoping that the orthopod is as good a woodworker as you are (Orthopedics is just carpentry with bones after all)

Forget whose fault it is. Bikes get taken out when riding defensively, and they also cop it when they're not, it's a numbers game. You can alter the odds by riding well and keeping your wits about you, but you cannot remove the very significant risk of accident and major trauma to your body.

Thinking that it won't happen to you is just self delusion (sorry Astrid)

In the end, you have to decide if the benefits outweigh the risks.

woodbe.

[dazzler]

Gidday:D

1 Closed head injury (Yup thats mild brain damage)


Ahhh, so that explains the "no steel" workbench :p

[astrid]

I didnt say I wouldnt ever come off
what i was saying is if i only ride a scooter at 45k on back roads in dry weather i'm less likly to come off.

you run a risk stepping off a tram, driving in the wet or walking the dog.
I think that we all accept that bikes are more dangerous.
but as i said before the more that use them the safer theyll get.
hopfully well get to the point where there are dedicated lanes and bikes are protected like trams.

astrid

[NewLou]

Ahhh, so that explains the "no steel" workbench :p

I've seen the light mods n new plans coming to a station near you soon :;

REgards Lou