Painting over a chipped ceiling

[Gooner]

I am renovating my small ensuite. I noticed that the ceiling had a large section where a previous coat had chipped away. It looks like the previous owners simply painted over the top of it.

None of the paint on the ceiling was chipping, but I didn't like the look of the 'step' where the previous coat had chipped away. I got up there with a scraper and scaped away some of the old paint. The part of the ceiling with the older paint came away relatively easily and in large chips. In these areas I have removed the paint down to the plasterboard.

I am left with a ceiling where the reminaing paint is quite 'sound'. It seems impossible to remove with a scraper and does not come off at all when I place strong adhesive tape over it and peel it off. Therefore I assume it can stay,

I have attached a picture of the current state of the ceiling.

My question is, how do I progress from here? If I only prime the ceiling and paint, I will have created a new 'step'. Therefore I assume I need to go over the ceiling with some kind of filler and sand it flat.

In what order do I do this? Do I fill, sand, and then apply a sealer/primer? Or do I apply the primer first, fill, sand, and then apply primer again? I have heard that 'Bondcrete' would be good for this job. Can anyone confirm?

Any advice appreciated.

[rod1949]

Sand first then prime/seal

[bob w]

I wouldn't bother filling. Use a plasterers sanding float and feather off all the paint edges so they don't show through the next coat then use a good sealer/primer and two coats of maybe a semi gloss as this is an ensuite. You could if you wanted sand the edges again after sealing to ensure the edges are feathered off well then seal again before top coating.
Cheers
Bob:2tsup:

[manoftalent]

a trick once learned quite some years ago, with the very same problem you have right now ...acctually looked quite good when done .....cut a board about 300mm square and put a handle in the centre (preferably a broom handle).....about 150mm in length .....this is used to apply the paint .....using a really thick acrylic...and plenty of drop sheets on the floor ......use a spoon to apply a quantity to the centre of the board .....and push it up into the ceiling ....twist ....and pull down slightly ...be patient to catch a few drips ....and continue on .....this will leave a circular drip effect which doesnt look to bad .....and will more than likely cover up a lot of the defects your trying to get rid of ...and in half the time .....:2tsup:

[Gooner]

Thanks for the reply guys.

Not sure about the "dripping roof" painting idea.

I have tried to sand the edges of the areas were the paint doesn't scrape off. Even after sanding, the step is noticable/feelable, so I would rather use somekind of film filler and sand to ensure there is no step at all.

Any recommendations on a film filler?

Thanks.

[echnidna]

polyfilla

[Slobba]

your bathroom ceiling was painted with a acrylic ceiling white & was not sealed first

1. get yourself some base plaster - from your local plaster supplier
get a top-coat plaster also, ready mixed. plus a 100mm hand trowel

2. trowel a ( skim )coating of base plaster ( mix the base plaster so its like a paste ) over the whole area that has been peeling, let the first coating dry off but not fully, now trowel another coat over the top of the first coating...but remember ONLY a skim coating, don't worry about trowel lines during the first coat , now you will need to back blade over the area you have troweled this will knock back the markings and high trowel lines...read in this thread, http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=62211 comment #4

3. now trowel a TOP coating of ready-mixed topping plaster over the whole area...this plaster sands very easy.

4. sand the surface with a "carbon foam sanding block" easy to use has 2 grits one on each side...ask at the plaster shop or a paint shop

5. seal the ceiling with 2 coatings of plasterboard sealer - or a good quality sealer undercoat, use a lambs wool roller. this will give a little texture

6. now you can paint the ceiling you can use a flat acrylic or low-sheen....no need for semi-gloss.

have fun.:2tsup:.....i've done this hundreds of times

[jow104]

Thanks for posting Slobba

[Gooner]

have fun.:2tsup:.....i've done this hundreds of times

Thanks Slobba. Much appreciate the advice. This sounds like the "proper" way to deal with the problem even though it sounds like more work than I was hoping for! :) I may have to repeat this procedure with most of the ceiling in the house.

One more question, how well should the existing paint be removed from the ceiling before performing the fix?

Thanks again.

[Slobba]

how well should the existing paint be removed from the ceiling before performing the fix?
Thanks again.

test it with a sharp trowel on the edge of the paint , work towards the paint edge and not away from it, if it wont move "leave it alone" another test is get some sticky tape..now with a razor make a small cross X about the size of a 50c coin...now place the tape over the cross and peel it back off ...if the paint comes away with the tape, keep working....

you will most likely find that all ceiling joints maybe effected. but mainly in the bathroom, kitchen, ensuite, laundry....any wet areas....

what happens the steam will penetrate flat ceiling white paints..this is why a good sealer must be used before painting plaster board....the picture you posted..i'd say that is above your shower... " thats what happens"...another tell tale sign is "crows feet" along the plaster join.......i wouldn't be to concerned about the other ceilings in your house....give the ceilings in your wet areas a coat of sealer and 2 top coatings of paint....mainly bathrooms & you can use flat acrylic.

[johnc]

test it with a sharp trowel on the edge of the paint , work towards the paint edge and not away from it, if it wont move "leave it alone" another test is get some sticky tape..now with a razor make a small cross X about the size of a 50c coin...now place the tape over the cross and peel it back off ...if the paint comes away with the tape, keep working....

you will most likely find that all ceiling joints maybe effected. but mainly in the bathroom, kitchen, ensuite, laundry....any wet areas....

what happens the steam will penetrate flat ceiling white paints..this is why a good sealer must be used before painting plaster board....the picture you posted..i'd say that is above your shower... " thats what happens"...another tell tale sign is "crows feet" along the plaster join.......i wouldn't be to concerned about the other ceilings in your house....give the ceilings in your wet areas a coat of sealer and 2 top coatings of paint....mainly bathrooms & you can use flat acrylic.

What Slobsa has said, you will get a finish you will be happy with, top coat is cheap and easy to apply compared to doing a half baked job that will look very average from the outset. Its all about feathering the edge so you can't get a shadow effect, oddly enough you can not really see large dips and hollows that well in a ceiling but flakes, chips and ridges show up like dogs dovers.

[rod@plasterbrok]

Hmm missed this thread lol.

Slobba is right except that I would use a minimum of an 250 mm joint knife to apply the top coat and a 300mm one would be better still.

Cheers

Rod

[Slobba]

Hmm missed this thread lol.

Slobba is right except that I would use a minimum of an 250 mm joint knife to apply the top coat and a 300mm one would be better still.

Cheers

Rod

i use a 250 mm Hyde trowel :2tsup:....but thought a 100 maybe easier for a DIY.

[Gooner]

One last question..(s)

I bought a container of Gyprock "Wet Area joint compound" while I was in a hurry because bunnings was about to close. I believe this should be OK for the base coat??

I also assume I NEED to put a topping compound over the base coat? (I have never done this before). Would a multi-purpose compound do the job or should I be using only a "top coat" compound?

Finally, I bought a tin of Dulux "1 Step primer, sealer & undercoat". It says it is suitable for a range of purpose including "paperfaced plasterboard". But now with the compound coats I am putting on the ceiling it is no longer "paperfaced". Is there a specific sealer that I should be using for the job?

Thanks for all the help already. Will post up a picture when I am finally done. (We have had a new-born baby to deal with within the last week. Tends to put the brakes on DIY jobs around the house!).

Thanks again.

[Slobba]

i only ever use the normal old base coat ( mixing it myself ) that way i get the texture that i need depending on the job i'm doing. giving it 2 layers..then back trowel after each layer to take any ridges off ( when dry )..then 1 coat of pre-mixed topping.. the sealer you have is good...i will post up some pix of some work i do...

rod should be able to answer about the wet area compound

just remember to take your time, it always takes longer to fix stuff ups..after the first layer ( skim coat ) don't get concerned that it is NOT smooth, the second skim coat will smooth it more, then the topping will smooth it complete. then sand it slowly....you can always add more topping where needed.

[rod@plasterbrok]

To be honest, I have never used this particular Wet Area Base Coat, as I have never had a need. So I am unable to comment on the characteristics of it.

Generally the wet area componds that I have used, set harder than others and are not quite as smooth to use.

The all purpose compund is ok for all 3 coats provided you can wait for it to dry between coats.

Cheers

[Gooner]

Appreciate your comments Slobba and Rod.

[MrFixIt]

Hi

2. trowel a ( skim )coating of base plaster ( mix the base plaster so its like a paste ) over the whole area that has been peeling, let the first coating dry off but not fully, now trowel another coat over the top of the first coating...but remember ONLY a skim coating,

TWO skim coats AND a TOP coat??

How thick is the paint on the ceiling? :?

IMHO this is a lot of work and effort for a NOVICE. The additional cost for purchasing the materials, though not too expensive, is more than what is required.

I have done this type or repair and there is really only one way to do it properly and that is to strip the ceiling back to the plasterboard. This too is a lot of effort, but it is the ONLY way to know that the "base" from which to work, ie to repaint, is COMPLETELY sound.

Even IF it was feasible to place three "skim" coats of "plaster" within the thickness of a coat of paint, there would still be doubts about the remaining surface. The remaining surface *may* last but for how long??

Gooner, if you do not want to strip back the remaining ceiling, then I recommend you feather the edges of the remaining paint and SEAL the ceiling with an OIL BASED sealer paying particular attention to the feathered edges.

You could also consider painting the "exposed" parts of ceiling (only) with several coats of sealer to build up the level of paint to that of the remaining "sound" paint. (This is easier to do with a paint roller than to plaster with a trowel). Then seal the whole ceiling with the OIL BASED sealer.

Acrylic sealers are very good but an oil based sealer is even better and they don't smell as pungent as they used to :)

Be aware though that if you don't remove the existing "sound" paint, you may need to do the job again. Stripping the paint is not too hard if you carefully use a quality paint stripper, obviously trying not to damage the paper surface of the plasterboard.

Paint the ceiling with a low sheen finish. This will help minimise any moisture being absorbed into the ceiling paint and it will help hide the ceiling "blemishes" better than a semi-gloss. The light fitting you currently have as per the photo (providing it DOES have a shade) will also help "disguise" any minor errors in the feathered edges or paintwork.

If you do not have a ceiling fan in the bathroom I recommend you have one fitted. This will help dramatically with the prevention of moisture absorption in the ceiling painwork.

Good luck with whatever method you choose :)

HTH

[Gooner]

Hi


Stripping the paint is not too hard if you carefully use a quality paint stripper, obviously trying not to damage the paper surface of the plasterboard.



Thanks for the advice. The remaining paint is quite sound. I cant really budge it with a scraper. However I did damage the paper surface in some areas. I.e ripped off some paper, but not down to the plaster. Can I put a base coat over this successfully?

[MrFixIt]

Hi
Thanks for the advice. The remaining paint is quite sound. I cant really budge it with a scraper.

I had the same scenario myself. In my case (which may be completely different to yours) about a year after doing the first repair job, I had to strip back the part not previously done as that part of the ceiling began to flake. Like in your situation, I could not easily strip back amy more of the paint during the first repair.


However I did damage the paper surface in some areas. I.e ripped off some paper, but not down to the plaster. Can I put a base coat over this successfully?

Yes you can put a base coat over that surface. Use polyfilla/spak filler for any small sized area but deep "cuts" in the surface.

I neglected to mention in my previous post, that if you do try to strip some of the other paint, round of the corners of your scraper so that the scraper corners don't dig into the ceiling/plaster/paper.

[Slobba]

Hi


TWO skim coats AND a TOP coat??

. Stripping the paint is not too hard if you carefully use a quality paint stripper,



TWO skim coats AND a TOP coat?? ...YES

carefully use a quality paint stripper ....NEVER attempt to do that :oo:

i'm not going to have a running debate about a simple little ceiling, but between myself and rods advice...no punn intended Mrfixit, but some of us do this work everyday for a living..and i only do things the easiest and quickest way. because the customer pays for a quality fix, after doing this for 27 years, i think i would know..:2tsup:

[MrFixIt]

i'm not going to have a running debate about a simple little ceiling

Ok, no problem.


but between myself and rods advice...no punn intended Mrfixit, but some of us do this work everyday for a living..and i only do things the easiest and quickest way. because the customer pays for a quality fix, after doing this for 27 years, i think i would know..:2tsup:

Yes, I agree with you. After doing that kind of work every day for 27 years I am SURE (with respect) *you* know what you're doing. However this does NOT easily translate to a *NOVICE* doing the same thing.

What may be easy and quick for you and I, may be difficult or at least frustrating for a *NOVICE*. How do you expect a *NOVICE* to place a nice skim coat of plaster overhead? (especially with a 100mm trowel?) Many novices would have enough difficulty getting plaster on a wall. You even described "mixing your own" how to you expect a novice to know how to do this properly?

Painting is MUCH easier though a novice may even have some difficulties with this. The paint is already available as it is to be used on the ceiling anyway. The purchase of plaster/top coat is an unnecessary extra expense that may cause more problems than it is worth.

I know how to mix plaster/top coat, but even I would not use the method you suggest, not that I am suggesting it is wrong, but because as I first pointed out the ONLY way to do the job properly is to REMOVE the existing (potentially faulty) paintwork. If the paint cannot be removed then several coats of paint are easier for a novice to apply than skim coats of plaster.



2. trowel a ( skim )coating of base plaster ( mix the base plaster so its like a paste ) over the whole area that has been peeling, let the first coating dry off but not fully, now trowel another coat over the top of the first coating...but remember ONLY a skim coating, don't worry about trowel lines during the first coat , now you will need to back blade over the area you have troweled this will knock back the markings and high trowel lines.

Gooner is a NOVICE for goodness sake!

.. and YES you can carefully use a scraper (with rounded corners) to remove the existing paintwork.

[/debate]

[pawnhead]

Gooner is a NOVICE for goodness sake!You don't need to use all caps to get your point across. Most people don't like it when you YELL at them. Just use bold, or italics to emphasise something of importance.

Slobbas description would be easy for a novice to follow. You don't require any special skills. It's the way that I'd do it rather than putting on layer after layer of paint, that still won't hide the difference in levels. It may round off the edge a bit, but you'd need a lot of layers to hide it totally.

[watson]

OK Girls.....Cover your homework!!
Maybe we could just give advice without the capitals and the testosterone poisoning.
Just a thought

[rod@plasterbrok]

Surely this thread has been done by now.

Pawnhead is spot on the money.

Painting over a surface of 2 different levels will never do a satisfactory job.

You cant get into too much trouble with skim coating with top coat because it will sand back no matter how bad it is put on. Basecoat its a different story.

Geez and I had banned myself from further comment on this thread:(

[Slobba]

i'm gonna wait for the finish photos......Ahmen:2tsup:

[Joister]

whilst you reckon the thread might be done Rod i've only just joined so thought i'd throw into the mix - agree with all that Slobba has gone through - i've 'patched' a few plaster and lathe ceilings using similar methods and also patched joining tape that has bubbled using similar methods

only idea i'd add to the mix which has worked well for me is to use exterior paint in the bathroom - the bathroom where i first started using exterior has last for 9 years without the slightest hint of change (and that was only one coat as it was an experiment)

anyways have enjoyed the read (one last thought - top coat being so easy to sand makes it easier to 'bleed' where the patch areas are)

good luck Goona and as Slobba said 'look forward to the photos'

[Gooner]

Thought I'd post an update, even though I am not finished yet.

I applied the pre-mixed wet-area base coat and found it difficult to apply. The pre-mixed stuff seemed quite dry and difficult to apply. I probably should have added water. I thought I made a little bit of a mess of applying the base coat (not too many trowel lines, but a little uneven), but after applying the top coat and sanding I did get quite a good smooth finish.

However, after doing this on a small ceiling, I would not contemplate doing this fix on a larger sized ceiling such as a lounge or kitchen. (I would only apply the coats over the chipped boundaries).

I have not yet sealed or painted the roof. Since applying the top coat and sanding I decided to remove all the plasterboard from the walls as I will be replacing them villaboard so that I can tile up to the ceiling. In order to do this I needed to remove all the cornices. I did this tonight.

Removing the cornices left difficult to remove adhesive on the ceiling. I will eventually have to remove this adhesive and then apply more base and finish coat to the ceiling so that it blends in with the existing surface.

Considering the size of the room (1.5m x 2.5m) and the fact that the cornices are now removed, I am now contemplating replacing the ceiling plasterboard altogehter! I think at this stage it may be quicker and easier. Of course it means I wasted my time and money appling the base and top coat, but at least I learnt something.

I still have more work to do in the room before I finish the ceiling, so I will cross that bridge when I get to it.

[Joister]

not really a waste of money Gooner as you'll need the coats for your tape if you do go and put new boards in - good luck and like you said so long as you are learning nothing is wasted (except maybe the time to take a dip down in the beach or a game of footie with mates or a beer at the pub or ....)