Election

[silentC]

My old man loves to tell the story of the day a union official came into his sheet metal works wanting to speak to the union rep (there wasn't one). He backed him all the way out of the shop and told him if he ever set foot on his property again, he'd set the dog on him (big nasty looking German Shepherd called Major). He never came back. I suppose if we'd been in Sydney or somewhere, he'd have come back with a few mates.

[bitingmidge]

We regard them as normal but at the beginning of the 20thC they were not at all available for the bulk of the population.

You are absolutely correct Sebastiaan, the unions did a great job... but that was 100 years ago.

The slave abolition guys did a great job too 100 years before that, but they aren't too bothered about being in business now.

It's a bit tough to blame the Howard government for a distrust of the Muslim community though, or any other ethnic community for that matter. Sadly the lack of integration was commenced if I recall correctly, with a policy of "multi culturalism" introduced by the Whitlam Government.

Before that, we were all Australians, or "New Australians" and life wasn't bad, even for the wogs!:wink:

P
:D:D:D

[Gra]

You are absolutely correct Sebastiaan, the unions did a great job... but that was 100 years ago.

tell that to this (http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/banton-state-funeral-offer/2007/11/27/1196036846377.html) guy

[Sebastiaan56]

Before that, we were all Australians, or "New Australians" and life wasn't bad, even for the wogs!

Sorry Midge, disagree. We emigrated when I was four. As a kid I was an effin wog, I changed the way I walked home from school as often as I could to avoid being beaten up by the Aussies. Didnt always work. Bigotry was more prevalent and open then. From memory teachers were often the worst. Things improved as my english improved but modern immigrants have it much better in some respects. I have a big hot spot around bigotry. The powerful screwing the weak ticks me off big time.

Pity the Muslims, the mutual emnity has gone on for centuries http://www.newstatesman.com/200304070040 but Howard's style of wedge politics needed an enemy. Menzies had the cold war, Howard desperately needed some kind of other. 9/11, Children Overboard etc were his salvation. That said it was labour who started the camps for refugees, we will see.....

Waldo, As I said... a mixed bag, the truth is usually a mixed up greyish affair. Im finding it more difficult to be absolutist as I get older.

Sebastiaan

[Waldo]

[/QUOTE]:but Howard's style of wedge politics needed an enemy.
Sebastiaan[/QUOTE]

what :censored2: carp.

[silentC]

Obviously unions do a lot of good in general, no-one debates that. You also can't debate that they have an image problem in general too. Compulsory unionism sucks. That's what we need to steer clear of. The idea of a couple of boys being sent around to your house to 'persuade' you to sign up. All the intimidation and bastardry that goes on. Surely no-one wants that back.

[Gra]

Obviously unions do a lot of good in general, no-one debates that. You also can't debate that they have an image problem in general too. Compulsory unionism sucks. That's what we need to steer clear of. The idea of a couple of boys being sent around to your house to 'persuade' you to sign up. All the intimidation and bastardry that goes on. Surely no-one wants that back.


Agreed, I just thought I would bring the agrument back to a bit of reality after a bit of union bashing. Yes they are crooks in the unions, show me an industry that doesnt have them.. I grew up in a union house and saw what advantages they brought. I now work in a non union industry (White collar, IT). I can see those that dont REQUIRE a union not understanding the need for a union, but I have also seen what employers will try to get away with without the union.

What is needed is some balance between the two extremes. I am afraid no-one has come up with a good balance yet, but what has passed recently (Last 10 years) hasnt helped

[silentC]

The main problem, as I see it, is that if you allow people to work in a job without membership of the respective union, members get ticked off that some people are enjoying the benefits negotiated for all without the overhead of the fees and the involvement in union 'activities'.

On the other hand, if you try to force people to become members, you create this environment of coercion.

I don't know what the answer is. Maybe some form of government-funded representation could work. Sort of like the Ombudsman or legal aid, which works on behalf of employees, without any membership requirements, with the legal right to make representations to employers on behalf of any employee or group thereof.

[Sebastiaan56]

I agree C, I believe one of the reasons that union membership is dropping is that people do get the benefit of their activity for free. There is no easy solution. I reckon we will see conditions further erode as globalisation kicks in. I reckon its only begun.

LOML part times as a nurse. The Health Dept payroll regularly gets her wages wrong, always to their benefit. Payroll stonewalls her so she trots off to see the union every couple of months and hey presto it gets fixed. And thats the Govt!

Dont worry about it Waldo, Howard (John and Janet - both) are now the stuff political science students will study for years to come. In cricket terms a good innings.

[Gra]

I don't know what the answer is. Maybe some form of government-funded representation could work. Sort of like the Ombudsman or legal aid, which works on behalf of employees, without any membership requirements, with the legal right to make representations to employers on behalf of any employee or group thereof.


What say an arbitration commision???

[silentC]

Yes, just like that :wink:

[wheelinround]

Why not an Arbitration Forum that way people can still work (well be there anyway) get paid and all have big :D or :(( or :p or in desperate situations :C while the rest of us :rofl:

[monkeyman]

This fear of the unions as if Stalin was about to take power in Australia and turn the country into a Soviet Union amuses me. It's reminiscent of the "reds under the beds" era and shows how successfully the coalition's PR machine tapped into peoples simple fears.

I think Kevin Rudd made it clear last night that he wants to work against differences identified as the Union/Business, State/Federal, indigenous/non-indigenous dichotomies.

People who start talking negatively about the country's future under Labor are engaging in self-fulfilling prophesies. Even the most red-necky Australian would agree that a lot of the money John Howard was throwing around should be channelled towards improving our health systems.
Very nicely put Rossluck:2tsup:

[TEEJAY]

People who talk negatively about labour are not wishing for a negative self fulfilling prophecy - they are simply good enough at remembering the times of previous labour occupation and wishing this time is different.

If they are nothing of previous recent Labour governments GREAT and i hope they get re-elected.

We shall see.

And if it becomes a dogs breakfast again then surely it isn't the gov'ts fault it is because people were fulfilling a negative self prophecy - get real!

[Waldo]

And before anyone gets hoodwinked by Rudd's Education Revolution and putting computers in the hands of every secondary school student doing years 11 and 12 I'd like to point this out :aro-d:

A client, the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development has put this tender out

http://www.tenders.vic.gov.au/domino/web_notes/etenders/etdrpublishing.nsf?Open

I have no doubt that Rudd will claim ownership of this as when the tender is awarded it will be in his term of office, and will say that he's extending his grand plan to teachers and principals of schools alike.

[Waldo]

People who talk negatively about labour are not wishing for a negative self fulfilling prophecy - they are simply good enough at remembering the times of previous labour occupation and wishing this time is different.

If they are nothing of previous recent Labour governments GREAT and i hope they get re-elected.

I agree with you Teejay, I wouldn't have voted for Beatie when I was still in Qld, but he proved he wasn't from the same mould as other Labor counterparts, with some exceptions eg. council amalgamations, he made the hard decisions like new dams (although the recommendations for the dam sites were made in '91) and desalination. So I'm not one-eyed after all. :q

[dazzler]

This may be a little left field but the best thing about the change in govt is the govt loses the nepatism it has with the heads of the govt agencies which is a good thing.

It takes a few years for the networks to get established.

I was stunned a few years ago in a govt meeting when a boss said that Minister X had told them to make a prominant complainer to shut up and stop causing trouble and the organisation should focus on him.....a bridge too far!

[Rossluck]

The main problem, as I see it, is that if you allow people to work in a job without membership of the respective union, members get ticked off that some people are enjoying the benefits negotiated for all without the overhead of the fees and the involvement in union 'activities'.

On the other hand, if you try to force people to become members, you create this environment of coercion.

I don't know what the answer is. Maybe some form of government-funded representation could work. Sort of like the Ombudsman or legal aid, which works on behalf of employees, without any membership requirements, with the legal right to make representations to employers on behalf of any employee or group thereof.

Now we're getting somewhere. Thanks Silent. This type of open-minded ability to see both sides is what we need. Instead of dumping on unions we need to consider why we've needed them over time: because historically those with the power to employ have often mistreated workers and abused their rights. Just as unions are something we all wish we could do away with, so is this mistreatment of workers.

Unions, and the union movement emerged from this mistreatment of workers. And this union of people who joined forces as the only way of contesting this mistreatment do get annoyed when their fellow workers happily enjoy the benefits they gain while shunning their union.

People like Waldo have obviously never experienced this terrible feeling of powerlessness at the hands of an unscrupulous employer. I certainly have. Here's one mild example: I once worked underground in a mine, where your life and health are threatened and your life expectancy is reduced because of the dust that you swallow. One day an idiot manager suddenly decided that the ten minutes the company allowed the miners to wash their hands before the 30 minute "crib" break was to be used for washing hands only. Instead of washing your hands and walking into the Crib room for lunch a few minutes early, you were now required to stand outside like an idiot until the 30 minute break officially started, then walk into the crib room.

This was demeaning and disrespectful, and made the miners feel like school kids. We called the AWU, an official had a "frank talk" with the said manager, and the next day we were invited to sit down an enjoy our break whenever we were able. :2tsup:

[Waldo]

People like Waldo have obviously never experienced this terrible feeling of powerlessness at the hands of an unscrupulous employer.

Fairgo Rossluck, you don't know jack about me, so keep the comments to yourself.

[Alastair]

And turnabout,

What about the terrible feeling of powerlessness at the hands of unscrupulous unionised labour?

I have watched the issues as a result of not being able to do anything about proffessional bludgers. More important, having to pay them the same as exceptional workers, and not being able to reward those better, as they are on the same award.

The point here is "unscrupulous", and while employers can be the bad guys, so by any stretch can unions. (and have been!)

[Wood Butcher]

Keep it clean guys!!

[Rossluck]

And turnabout,

The point here is "unscrupulous", and while employers can be the bad guys, so by any stretch can unions. (and have been!)

That's right. And that's the overall point I was trying to make. It's pointless to single one side out and lambaste them as the enemy and sole cause of all problems. You need to see both sides of it: bad employers equals bad unions equals bad employers and so on. I's a closed circuit, and as Silent indicated, there are no obvious solutions.

Nothing personal intended Waldo, just part of the debate. :D

[Alastair]

Unfortunately I think that to hope for balance is a Utopian dream, as either side of the equation, by definition, will try to maximise the advantage available to them.

I will reserve my cynicism, but let's say that I hope that we can aspire to some form of conservative labour ethic:

To put it another way, I would like to believe we get Tony Blair, and not Harold Wilson

[Rossluck]

Unfortunately I think that to hope for balance is a Utopian dream, as either side of the equation, by definition, will try to maximise the advantage available to them.

I will reserve my cynicism, but let's say that I hope that we can aspire to some form of conservative labour ethic:

To put it another way, I would like to believe we get Tony Blair, and not Harold Wilson


I think we agree more than we disagree. :D I would hate to return to the days of newspapers full of news of strikes and disputes. I don't forget those days. But it takes two to tango ....

[Geoff Dean]

In 1986 I was working for a printing company that was a non union shop. Everyone was paid above award wages, around $50 per week, which was around 12% above the award, we had very good conditions, were happy with the employer and got on and did a good days work.

The business was sold to the local newspaper which was run to militant union rules. Within 5 minutes of the first day that the new owners were in charge we were visited by the shop steward who told all staff that they had to join the union. Most joined, I resisted.

I was then called to a meeting and told that I had to join or everyone else would be called out on strike. My reply was they could strike as much as they liked, I would turn up to work and get paid while they got no wages, see if I cared. I was told I would not be allowed to enter the premises if I did not join. I had to be restrained from putting said officials head thru a brick wall.

End result was I did not have to join, and the others who had joined then tried to unjoin from union, but were not allowed to do so. I think that they were more peed off about that than me.

The union made sure that everyone who was on over award wages lost those extras. They could not remove them from us, but every CPI or Indexed rise that happened for the next 3 years was not passed on until we were back on the award.

I have only had 3 jobs in 28 years, I left my first job after 8.5 years after the union standover tactics, my second employer was a good employer for 8 years, but then the business started going bad because of his excesses, and I left after 8.5 years also. The business went bellyup about 18 months later so I just got out in time.

I have been with my current employer now for nearly 11 years and in the whole 28 years, apart from 4 years as an apprentice, and 3 months after the union intervention with my first job, I have been paid over the award, currently almost 40% above, and not a single union rep to get that for me, in fact all they have ever wanted to do is have my salary decreased to the award.

My employers have always valued my expertise and work ethic and rewarded me accordingly. I have had a few other run ins with unions over the years, but by making them admit that they are not able to get me as good a conditions that I currently have, I have been able to make them leave me alone.

So you can understand why I think that unions are nothing but self serving, blackmailing extortionists, who have probably outlived there usefulness. They may have some relevance, but not while they continue to display the militant tactics that they have in the past.

[mic-d]

geez, I don't know why people are getting so hot under the collar, the election booths are still echoing with the sound of voters and already its the worst thing in the world to have happened. Give the new government a chance, the people have made their choice. You either have to accept the workings of the system and wait 3 years to excercise your rights again or bugger off to an undemocratic country where the government does not change - see how you might like that... We really have relatively very little to complain about in Australia.

Cheers
Michael

[Ashore]

geez, Give the new government a chance, Michael
Come on Mike its already tuesday and things arn't even back to 2001 let alone 1984 there've had their chance ,everything was going to be wonderful and back to the keating days straight after the election...um wasn't it :rolleyes:

[HappyHammer]

It's pointless to single one side out and lambaste them as the enemy and sole cause of all problems.
Hey Woodbutcher shouldn't this post be moved to the cooking forum?:U

HH.

[echnidna]

or the gardening forum, there's a lotta fertiliser here

[Rossluck]

Hey Woodbutcher shouldn't this post be moved to the cooking forum?:U

HH.


lam·baste<SCRIPT>play_w("L0026600")</SCRIPT><OBJECT style="MARGIN: 3px 3px 5px" codeBase=http://fpdownload.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,0,0 height=13 width=10 classid=clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000>
























<embed style="margin-bottom:4px" src="http://img.tfd.com/play.swf" FlashVars="soundpath=http://img.tfd.com/hm/mp3/L0026600" menu="false" width="10" height="13" wmode="transparent" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer"></OBJECT> (lhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/abreve.gifm-bhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/amacr.gifsthttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gif) </P>tr.v. lam·bast·ed, lam·bast·ing, lam·bastes Informal 1. To give a thrashing to; beat. See Synonyms at beat (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/beat).
2. To scold sharply; berate.

[Studley 2436]

*LOL* love your sense of humour guys.

Have been in union shops and been a union member didn't do me any good at all. Don't want to return to those days.

Will Rudd be any good? Don't know I was pretty clear before the election that he had not told us much about himself and who he was what drove him other than being PM. We do know that there are many competing interests behind him such as unions and also the various parts of the chattering class that will lobby for political correctness, an apology to the "Stolen Generaration" (the fact is that there were many white children in the same period put in orphanages but there is no claim for an apology or compo to them. Right or wrong the government of the time believed it was doing the right thing) amongst others. Rudd seems to be presenting a classic liberal position on government. This includes free markets individual ability of each of us to decide our own path etc. Very different from the Socialist mantra of the ALP constitution. Lets see what happens.

Studley

[HappyHammer]

lam·baste<SCRIPT>play_w("L0026600")</SCRIPT><OBJECT style="MARGIN: 3px 3px 5px" codeBase=http://fpdownload.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,0,0 height=13 width=10 classid=clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000>
























</p>&nbsp
&nbsp
&nbsp
&nbsp
&nbsp
&nbsp
&nbsp
&nbsp
&nbsp
&nbsp
&nbsp
&nbsp
&nbsp
&nbsp
&nbsp
&nbsp
&nbsp
&nbsp
&nbsp
&nbsp
&nbsp
&nbsp
&nbsp
&nbsp
<embed style="margin-bottom:4px" src="http://img.tfd.com/play.swf" FlashVars="soundpath=http://img.tfd.com/hm/mp3/L0026600" menu="false" width="10" height="13" wmode="transparent" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer"></OBJECT>(lhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/abreve.gifm-bhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/amacr.gifsthttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gif)
tr.v. lam·bast·ed, lam·bast·ing, lam·bastes Informal 1. To give a thrashing to; beat. See Synonyms at beat (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/beat).
2. To scold sharply; berate.
Errr I know what it means it was a joke...


joke http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pnghttp://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2Fjoke)/http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngdʒoʊk/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngjohk]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciationnoun, verb, joked, jok·ing.
–noun <TABLE class=luna-Ent minmax_bound="true"><TBODY minmax_bound="true"><TR minmax_bound="true"><TD class=dn vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">1.</TD><TD vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">something said or done to provoke laughter or cause amusement, as a witticism, a short and amusing anecdote, or a prankish act: He tells very funny jokes. She played a joke on him. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=luna-Ent minmax_bound="true"><TBODY minmax_bound="true"><TR minmax_bound="true"><TD class=dn vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">2.</TD><TD vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">something that is amusing or ridiculous, esp. because of being ludicrously inadequate or a sham; a thing, situation, or person laughed at rather than taken seriously; farce: Their pretense of generosity is a joke. An officer with no ability to command is a joke. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=luna-Ent minmax_bound="true"><TBODY minmax_bound="true"><TR minmax_bound="true"><TD class=dn vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">3.</TD><TD vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">a matter that need not be taken very seriously; trifling matter: The loss was no joke. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=luna-Ent minmax_bound="true"><TBODY minmax_bound="true"><TR minmax_bound="true"><TD class=dn vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">4.</TD><TD vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">something that does not present the expected challenge; something very easy: The test was a joke for the whole class. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>:U

HH.

[silentC]

<DL><DT>lead<SUP>2</SUP> <DD>http://www.macquariedictionary.com.au/-/gif/speaker.gif (http://www.macquariedictionary.com.au/dynimg/mp3/pronunciations/all/13467.mp3) /http://www.macquariedictionary.com.au/-/gif/l.gifhttp://www.macquariedictionary.com.au/-/gif/8.gifhttp://www.macquariedictionary.com.au/-/gif/d.gif/ (say led)
noun 1. Chemistry a heavy, comparatively soft, malleable bluish-grey metal, sometimes found native, but usually combined as sulfide, in galena. Symbol: Pb; relative atomic mass: 207.19; atomic number: 82; density: 11.34 at 20°C.
2. something made of this metal or one of its alloys.
3. a plumb-bob or mass of lead suspended by a line, as for taking soundings.
4. bullets; shot.
5. black lead or graphite.
6. a small stick of this as used in pencils.
7. Also, leading. Printing a thin strip of type metal or brass, less than type high, for increasing the space between lines of type.
8. frames of lead in which panes are fixed, as in windows of stained glass.
9. (plural) sheets or strips of lead used for covering roofs.
10. See red lead (http://www.macquariedictionary.com.au/silentc@CC52862732/-/p/dict/goto_rec.html?recid=000061967&db=dictbigmac&DatabaseList=dictbigmac&query=lead%20balloon&searchType=findrank&type=title). See white lead (http://www.macquariedictionary.com.au/silentc@CC52862732/-/p/dict/goto_rec.html?recid=000084849&db=dictbigmac&DatabaseList=dictbigmac&query=lead%20balloon&searchType=findrank&type=title).
11. Obsolete a cauldron.
--verb (t) 12. to cover, line, weight, treat, or impregnate with lead or one of its compounds.
13. Printing to insert leads between the lines of.
14. to fix (window glass) in position with leads.
--adjective 15. containing or made of lead.
--phrase 16. fill someone full of lead, Colloquial to shoot someone numerous times with a gun.
17. go down like a lead balloon, Colloquial to fail dismally; fail to elicit the desired response.
18. have a lead foot, Colloquial to be given to driving too fast.
19. heave the lead, Nautical to take a sounding with a lead.
20. lead in one's pencil, Colloquial (of a male) sexual vigour; virility.
21. swing the lead, Colloquial to be idle when there is work to be done. [Middle English lede, Old English lēad, related to German Lot plumb-bob] </DD></DL>
:D
<!-- begin biblio.template -->

[HappyHammer]

<DL><DT>lead<SUP>2</SUP> <DD>17. go down like a lead balloon, Colloquial to fail dismally; fail to elicit the desired response.:D
</DD></DL><!-- begin biblio.template -->
Story of my life mate....if only more people were on my wave length:doh:

HH.

[RETIRED]

OK, very clever but keep it on topic.

[outback]

My broadband hasn't turned up yet. :(( Kev's a failure. :(( Bring back Hewson, or maybe Downer. :p

[echnidna]

If Abbot becomes the new lib leader he may recall Costello

[TEEJAY]

If Abbot becomes the new lib leader he may recall Costello


Don't you threaten me :~


:p

[Ashore]

I rekon Costello is playing this smart , keep out of the limelight while Labor blame the Libs for everything from the drought we had to have to rising tides , as every Gov does to the previous one when first elected , and then after the next election do a John Howard like Phoenix impression. :rolleyes:

[TEEJAY]

I rekon Costello is playing this smart , keep out of the limelight while Labor blame the Libs for everything from the drought we had to have to rising tides , as every Gov does to the previous one when first elected , and then after the next election do a John Howard like Phoenix impression. :rolleyes:


So many are saying John the best Prime Minister we have ever had. I have to admit in his previous life alah Treasurer and earler he was a little bumbling - I am sorry but I just can't be impressed with you - type of guy, but given the reign he did have a long spell there. Yeah yeah - some will say he never changed - but he did get re-elected a bit.

I am not saying he is the best - I think people have such short memories anyone in recent history is all that matters or counts. I don't have far back beyond good old Gough recollection. Ah - now those were the days :D :rolleyes: :o Prime Ministers car would be a Valiant - ah such grace - now if Malcolm had got a P76 instead of losing his pants - well :rolleyes:

Thank goodness we don't take them too seriously.

[HappyHammer]

Let's lobby Kevin 07 to abolish the state / federal system in favour of federal only, then the pool of money can be used in the areas with most need rather than stored and bickered over.

I'm dreaming of a white christmas just like the ones I used to know......

HH.

[silentC]

It'll never happen while you have Labor at State and Federal level but at least the Labor party can tell the States to pull their heads in.

[HappyHammer]

.... but at least the Labor party can tell the States to pull their heads in.
This is one of the most important measurements IMO of Rudd as a leader.... we'll have to wait and see how much control he actually achieves over the states and the unions. We should review this point in 12 months and see how he has done. I'll reserve my judgement until then.

HH.

[bitingmidge]

It'll never happen while you have Labor at State and Federal level but at least the Labor party can tell the States to pull their heads in.

Do you think G W Bush cares? :D:D:D

P

[silentC]

Probably not but apparently Hillary is looking forward to working with Kev :)

[dazzler]

Latest news is a strike over xmas and new year will ground Qantas.:(

Who'd a thought that would happen under labor.....:p

I wanna get in quick...I didnt vote for him...now line up behind me :D

[dazzler]

This is one of the most important measurements IMO of Rudd as a leader.... we'll have to wait and see how much control he actually achieves over the states and the unions. We should review this point in 12 months and see how he has done. I'll reserve my judgement until then.

HH.

Better send him a needle and thread and some pain killers....hes gunna need em :oo:

[Wood Butcher]

Latest news is a strike over xmas and new year will ground Qantas.:(

Who'd a thought that would happen under labor.....:p

I wanna get in quick...I didnt vote for him...now line up behind me :D
Yeah of course it is Kevin's fault. I mean the talks that have been going on for months already before the election in regards to this potential strike have nothing to do with it do they.

[HappyHammer]

Yeah of course it is Kevin's fault. I mean the talks that have been going on for months already before the election in regards to this potential strike have nothing to do with it do they.
No this is because Qantas staff have to work longer for less to recoup the $69m Qantas have been fined for rigging post costs to the US.

HH.

[astrid]

Please stop this hypocritical union bashing nonsense.
How many registered trade unions or associations are there in this country?
How many indulge in Thuggish standover tactics of workers or bosses?
How many registered business's are there?
How many indulge in thuggish standover tactics of their employees or those trying to represent them?
Ever heard of a lockout guys?
How many of the union bashers on this forum have at sometime in their lives taken advantage of the benefits won by fights that others paid for.
Or do you donate the dough to your favorite charity?

As for the decline in membership, I was the delegate for many years and had a very reasonable working relationship with boss, membership was at 67%. It was the young ones who never suffered unequal pay for women,
two min toilet breaks for pregnant women, ETC ETC that refused to join because and I quote "I'll get the benefits anyway".

Is there any wonder that there is a bitter feeling toward those who ride the backs of others work?

Maybe some of you are too blinkered to see that your being manipulated by the interests of business, or you may run a business too small to afford a fair deal to your employees. In which case get out and get a job , and I hope its in an industry with a decent (in all senses) Union .

Astrid:cool:

Phew that was a rant:U

[Big Shed]

No this is because Qantas staff have to work longer for less to recoup the $69m Qantas have been fined for rigging post costs to the US.

HH.

Dixon has made Pratt look like a beginner!:o

[silentC]

I was the delegate for many years
Stands to reason you would be pro-union then, doesn't it?


Is there any wonder that there is a bitter feeling toward those who ride the backs of others work?
So you advocate compulsory membership then?

I have been a member of a total of one union in my life (excluding the student union at uni). Over a period of 10 years, I watched our 'hard won' benefits eroded away before our eyes. RDO's went first, then leave loading, then overtime. That's why union membership has declined - because unions are now a toothless tiger. It remains to be seen whether Labor will restore them to their former glory, or whether they will submerge forever in a sea of irrelevance.

[Waldo]

1. Ever heard of a lockout guys?
2. How many of the union bashers on this forum have at sometime in their lives taken advantage of the benefits won by fights that others paid for.
3. Or do you donate the dough to your favorite charity?
4. Is there any wonder that there is a bitter feeling toward those who ride the backs of others work?

5. Maybe some of you are too blinkered to see that your being manipulated by the interests of business, or you may run a business too small to afford a fair deal to your employees. In which case get out and get a job , and I hope its in an industry with a decent (in all senses) Union .

1. Ever heard of 6 months or so ago where a car parts supplier to Ford and Holden had to shut down? The union said no you can't sack the workers :: Union locked the company down, as a result 100's of workers at the car plants lost their jobs as a result. Nevermind looking after their members :no:

2. Never have. No unions in my industry thank goodness. I've always negotiated my pay and conditions, I'd only be paying money for what I can easily do myself.

3. What's that got to do with anything? Yes I do donate to charity: to Juvenile Diabetes Fund and several orphanages in India.

4. The best situation would be for two choices: join a union and for those who don't want to then they negotiate their own conditions. For those that negotiate the unions steer clear and leave them to get about their job.

5. Yes I run a small business, no I don't employ anyone, but I do contract out, and they're paid $65 per hour for their work.

I was told to join a union when I was a nightpacker, I didn't and got the sack. Go figure.

[Groggy]

I don't think anyone is against workers rights being protected. I also don't think anyone wants businesses to be bullied either.

What seems to be at issue, but not stated, is "what is the best way to protect those interests?". At times in our history it has been necessary to protect workers and businesses from each other and their representatives.

Nowadays there is a lot more legislative protection than in the past, and the need for strong measures (strikes and lockouts) has reduced. In that environment the need for unions is lessened, but it does not follow that the need to protect workers has reduced.

[Waldo]

Well said Groggy. :2tsup:

[astrid]

no silent, I dont advocare compulsory membership, just that those who arnt members should forfeit benefits gained by those who lost pay to get them, is this unreasonable? and i notice you dont address the issue of what workplaces were like for women without union representation. women were and still are one of the most exploited groups in our community. those who do piecework, those who get up at 4am to clean city offices. working mothers put on rolling short term contracts. and denied long service leave or flexiblility around school holidays plus a host of other things. This happens in white collar work as well as blue. Ask me I'm one of them. Ps my pay didnt come through this week, no explanation,one woman wasnt paid for 6 weeks because of an HR stuff up, one has been waiting for overtime money for 3 months. we work for one of the biggest insurers in the country. and guess what, the Union is locked out. We have no-one to help we just have to wear it. Astrid

[silentC]

Actually, I'm not anti-union per se. I think if you scroll back a couple of pages, you might have even seen me write something to the affect that unions have done a lot of good.

There are certain aspects of the union movement that I don't like, and one of them is this attitude that you're either with us or against us. People have various reasons for not wanting to join a union - they should not be penalised for it. The other is the ugly side that I have witnessed once myself in the past and many other people have related here and elsewhere. I suppose it's a question of how much power you believe unions should have.

BTW I've had my pay not come through a couple of times in the past. I got it sorted out, with no union involvement. Mistakes happen. I usually contacted the HR department or my manager. That's what they're there for.

[astrid]

how are people being "penalised" if they dont get benefits they did'nt work for?
I didnt say you were anti union, what I am trying to point out here is simply ther are good and bad unions and good and bad employers.
To really throw the cat amongst the pidgions lets look at conditions on building sites befor the BLF and Gallhager.
Or the working conditions of overseas sailors befor the painters and dockers stepped in and refused to unload ships untill these conditions improved.
these unions became corrupt but even still they did a lot of good.

my issue is the indiscriminate union bashing for political gain.
and you still havent addressed the women in the workforce issue?
Also unintentional HR stuff ups are one thing, to promote a deliberate fear among contractors that if they strir the pot too much, there wont be renewed is entirely another.
Astrid

[fxst]

So the unions are good for workers>> heres an extract form todays Advertiser in Adelaide.....obviously thats ok and a good deal for workers....mmmmmm I can't see it. Seems very AWAish to me but its ok Kev is in now and he will stop this discrimination I guess:D
Pete

[woodbe]

Isn't this thread locked yet? :D

[silentC]

how are people being "penalised" if they dont get benefits they did'nt work for?The person next to you could be being paid less than you, or have less sick leave, or not be allowed to eat in the lunch room simply because they are not a member of the union - that is the penalty you're suggesting. This is why I believe that the function of unions would be better performed by an independent organisation funded by the government that works for better conditions for ALL employees, not just 'the membership'. Sort of like the Arbitration Commission is supposed to be.


these unions became corrupt but even still they did a lot of good.No argument there. The first part is what a lot of us are saying is wrong with the union movement - what happens when they get too much power.


you still havent addressed the women in the workforce issue?I have no experience on which to draw, so not really any comment I can give. But I thought we had an Equal Opportunity commission for that.


to promote a deliberate fear among contractors that if they strir the pot too much, there wont be renewed is entirely another.I don't follow - are you saying you were deliberately not paid in an effort to frighten you, or are you making a different point?

[Groggy]

2000 new jobs? Did anyone ask where these people will come from in todays "full employment" environment? Most likely they will recruit from overseas anyway. :shrug:

[Studley 2436]

Unions have depended on special conditions under the law as long as they have been going. Right to entry, right to negotiate regardless or whether the individual wanted it or not and so on. Their campaign about work choices was basically about this. Being all for individual liberty I disagree with the Unions demands.

However there are lots of things that go on in the workplace and regarding negotiations for a fair deal conditions etc surely a union would have a very good service to offer. The shame is they do not see themselves as being a service provider. Really the Unions have to bring themselves up to date with the modern day if they are going to survive.

As for the Rudd Government there are many challenges before it, many challenges in front of the Liberal party too. It will be interesting to see how it all pans out.

Studley

[dazzler]

. Ps my pay didnt come through this week, no explanation,one woman wasnt paid for 6 weeks because of an HR stuff up, one has been waiting for overtime money for 3 months.

Is this because they are women :?

How does that work :?

Less ranting and more sense makin :wink: :D

[dazzler]

I'll have a go at addressing the women in the workplace....

I believe we are all equal. No orwellian utopia where some are more equal than others.

The only difference between men and women is that women can have children. During this period there rights must be protected completely.

So entitlement to maternity leave, be it paid or unpaid, is a very important right and must be protected.

But other than that there should be no other rights than men.

Take family leave (school hols etc). This is not a female only issue. Men have just as much right to care for thier children as well as women. But this is not an employers issue.

Many women want thier cake and eat it too sadly. They want a career and to be a "mother" as well. Thats fine, but its hardly the employers problem is it? Imagine if men started carrying on like it...bloody country would stop in its tracks.

If a couple decide that both parents need to work then that is an issue for them not thier employer to deal with. My wife and I worked full time and raised 2 kids without the employer having to take pay for our decision.

Single mothers with children are a harder issue, but then again if there was a whole lot more shared custody of children both the father and mother could share the burden of care and work. But almost without exception, unless the mother is something off The Jerry Springer Show, the dad gets two days a fortnight. Hang on, thats not equal.

Equal rights totally IMO.

[echnidna]

Please stop this hypocritical union bashing nonsense.
How many registered trade unions or associations are there in this country?
How many indulge in Thuggish standover tactics of workers or bosses?
How many registered business's are there?
How many indulge in thuggish standover tactics of their employees or those trying to represent them?
Ever heard of a lockout guys?
How many of the union bashers on this forum have at sometime in their lives taken advantage of the benefits won by fights that others paid for.
Or do you donate the dough to your favorite charity?

As for the decline in membership, I was the delegate for many years and had a very reasonable working relationship with boss, membership was at 67%. It was the young ones who never suffered unequal pay for women,
two min toilet breaks for pregnant women, ETC ETC that refused to join because and I quote "I'll get the benefits anyway".

Is there any wonder that there is a bitter feeling toward those who ride the backs of others work?

Maybe some of you are too blinkered to see that your being manipulated by the interests of business, or you may run a business too small to afford a fair deal to your employees. In which case get out and get a job , and I hope its in an industry with a decent (in all senses) Union .

Astrid:cool:

Phew that was a rant:U

:2tsup::2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

[Ashore]

Or the working conditions of overseas sailors befor the painters and dockers stepped in and refused to unload ships untill these conditions improved.

That was the MUA not the painters and dockers , they don't unload ships
To put the painters and dockers in any good light indicates to me that you have never had any dealings with that union , they are one of the reasons we now have only a handfull of australian manned ships on the Australian Coast and not the 100 or so we did have :((


To really throw the cat amongst the pidgions lets look at conditions on building sites befor the BLF and Gallhager.

Gallhager was put in to stop the Green Bans to make the union federal and remove the state controle to curb sharkey mundy who was one of the decent blokes and the reason much of sydneys heratige was saved Gallhager on the other hand showed himself as exactily what he was. :((

[astrid]

Thanks bob,
Astrid:B

Whatever, Ashore, my point is still that unions can do tremendously good things.

Astrid

[Geoff Dean]

my point is still that unions can do tremendously good things.

Astrid

As previously stated, my only dealings with unions have been when they have tried to extort, blackmail and standover me, and when that didn't work they then made sure that the over award payment that I had negotiated was removed.:((

If that is your idea of doing a tremendously good thing, then you can have it...I want nothing to do with it.

[rod@plasterbrok]

Thanks bob,
Astrid:B

Whatever, Ashore, my point is still that unions can do tremendously good things.

Astrid

Hmm. you would not be saying that Astrid if you had my experience with Unions.

They bloody mindedly destroyed my company in the 80's
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/i_used_to_have_a_good_business/#commentsmore

[Ashore]

Whatever, Ashore, my point is still that unions can do tremendously good things.
Astrid
Whatever ... :? why not admit the two examples of unions doing good that you gave are possable two of the worst unions australia ever had to deal with
You say your point is that unions can do tremendously good things I would put it to you that in the past some unions have done tremendously good things when we lived in a diffrent era, and I for one are thankful for them, but we have progressed as a people and a nation the need of unions has decreased not gone completely by any means but decreased and surely we need to look at the present and the future and look not only at the old ways of doing things but give new ideas a try before saying we must go back to the way industrial relations were handled 30 - 40 - or more years ago.
Your pro union stance is just that yours and you have a right to it but please get your facts right and when you are wrong be big enough to admit it , and not with .."whatever" :no:

[astrid]

sorry, you are correct in saying it was mundy who was BLF boss and yes was a good bloke and did tremendous things.

and my understanding is that the MUA (a Union) assisted overseas sailor with the assisstance of the PDU who do unload containers and refused to do so until conditions were improved for your less fortunate brothers.

dont nit pick
astrid

PS a rather more current example is the ACTU V James Hardy
want to nit pick that one?

[Waldo]

and my understanding is that the MUA (a Union) assisted overseas sailor with the assisstance of the PDU who do unload containers and refused to do so until conditions were improved for your less fortunate brothers.

:?

Patricks wanted to bring in non-union labour (which as an employer, is their given right) who got paid better for various reasons and the MUA chucked a spit and said, "no you can't do that" and locked the place down. That about the guts of it Ashore?

[astrid]

For those who have lost businesses because of union action I am very sorry.
Actually this happened to my Dad (painter and sighnwriter) in the UK late sixties.
But he was grown up about it, conceded that his business was too small to be viable, Moved over here and landed me on you:U

He remained a Labour man all his life and pro Union.(mostly)

Astrid

[echnidna]

ok you union bashing bums,
what about keeping a balanced discussion,
do some picking on the bum employers as well

[silentC]

It's all becoming clear :)

[silentC]

do some picking on the bum employers as well
Don't have any experiences to draw on. All of my employers have treated me well. I've been sacked once, but I deserved it. I've always had flexibility for personal business within the limits of employment requirements.

The only union I've ever been a member of was the FSU when I worked for Commonwealth Bank. When I joined, we had RDOs, paid overtime, 1 moving day per year, various discounts on bank services etc. By the time I left, all of that was gone. What was the point of being a member of the union?

Or perhaps Astrid thinks I didn't deserve to benefit from all those things anyway, since they had been fought for and won by members before my time.

[astrid]

silent,
maybe all those things went because the FSU is weak because people wont join.
Banking like Insurance tends to be a rather conservative industry.

Astrid:U

[silentC]

I think that's putting the cart before the horse. When I joined, Comm bank was still very much public service sector mentality despite privatisation and most of the employees were members - it was pretty much a given that you would join. I signed up because there were some benefits of membership, including cheap loans (which they got rid of) and a couple of other things.

The reason we lost all those things was because they had entered into an enterprise bargaining agreement and part of the deal for pay increases was to lose RDOs and some of the other benefits. I would have preferred the RDOs but no-one asked me - they negotiated them out of existence 'on my behalf'.

[Gra]

silent,
maybe all those things went because the FSU is weak because people wont join.
Banking like Insurance tends to be a rather conservative industry.

Astrid:U

no its because the FSU is a puppet of the banks. dont ask me how I know, but lets just say I am the only one on my floor that still has RDO's (Long term employment with one employer has its perks)

[astrid]

Yeah Gra,
I was being kind.
Its a funny reflection but has anyone noticed that the nature of a Union, by which I mean how people perceive it, seems to be strongly influenced by the gender and/or the qualifications of the members of the industry.

"Thuggish" unions are full of macho bloky types ie dockers, building and dare I say it the police, "weak" Unions represent mainly female dominated industries ie retail and banking, "powerfull (but civilized) Nurses, Firefighters, teachers and public sector.

I wonder why this is?

Astrid:;

[silentC]

Hmm, if I was to make a distinction, it would based on level of education or something, not gender. I'm not sure any of those industries you mention, with the exception of nursing, could be said to be female dominated, but if you have figures that demonstrate it, I'm all eyes.

I think that the union 'thuggery' you saw in the more manual occupations was imported from the UK and Ireland, brought by the migrant workers who came over to work on building sites and at the docks.

[echnidna]

so at home, lets look at bully employers

Telstra for example,
who despite the overwhelming community dissaisfaction with WPA's are forcing them through before they are overhauled in the interests of fair play

[silentC]

Don't they have a union?

[astrid]

Anyway we're getting a bit off topic here, although maybe we are now in post election mode.
Has Phil ruddock truely been kidnaped by the taliban?
Or is he so busy shredding stuff he cant take a tea break on his workchoices award.
Was peter really "all tip and no iceburg"?
Theres some good links on writing your first resume on MyCareer.com
Has Alexander run out of fishnets?
And poor old Tony is consoling "master"?
Joe is rewriting last weeks speech (still).
Julie is wondering if she can afford her Hex fees to get an education.
Mal is considering becoming a social worker to fullfil his sincere lifetime ambition to help abused children and women.

Have I missed anyone important?
Sorry I forgot Johnny

Asrid:U

[silentC]

Let's check back in 12 months time and see what they're saying about Kevin 07 and his mates (who are they again? Oh that's right, he's still deciding).

The honeymoon wont last forever. :)

[Gra]

Hmm, if I was to make a distinction, it would based on level of education or something, not gender. I'm not sure any of those industries you mention, with the exception of nursing, could be said to be female dominated, but if you have figures that demonstrate it, I'm all eyes.

I think that the union 'thuggery' you saw in the more manual occupations was imported from the UK and Ireland, brought by the migrant workers who came over to work on building sites and at the docks.

I am with silent here, the banking/insurance industry is usually a highly educated area, and often very male dominated.

though retail would probablty fit your gender bias theory.

but as silent has said, the more militant factions were usually imported, though as I am typing this I seem to remember the shearers union, who started the union movement in australia tended to be a little "thugish", though that may be more a sign of the times than anything else.

Have you aslo noticed that the more militant union activity seems to be global, and may be more economically driven, if you look at the cycles of militancy you will find that it usually isnt just in one country but globally. (I could be talking out my .... here but just seems to be to me)

[astrid]

Chasers report,
Johnnys been running around with a lampshade for the last hour down at woolstonecroft, while J decides where to put it.
No the honeymoon wont last, but I'll enjoy it while it I can.

Astrid:U

[Tonka]

Kevin 07...... Recession 08. !

[Tonka]

G'day all,
A bit off topic , but back to water blasters, iIm looking for something suitable to clean that black crud (mould) off concrete driveways etc.
I hear GMC is good for the price and has metal bits in the pump, K'archer is dodgy at the lower price consumer level with plastic pumps, Bosch may be worth a look.
Went to my local Mitre10, and the bloke pushed the Gerni 120 onto me, about $299 I think, any testimonials welcome.
Thanks.

[Ashore]

:?

Patricks wanted to bring in non-union labour (which as an employer, is their given right) who got paid better for various reasons and the MUA chucked a spit and said, "no you can't do that" and locked the place down. That about the guts of it Ashore?

Yes waldo the MUA who actually load and unload ships , got to the point with wages and conditions that to move a container off a truck and onto a ship in Sydney or Melbourne cost more than to transport it and unload it in Europe or the states. :((

And Astrid I am not nit picking but I worked in the industry for over 30 years and had to deal with the Painters and Dockers who assist with lines when a ship is berthing or sailing , paint , clean, and remove scale rust etc do not unload or load cargo on ships, why do you have such a problem with just admitting your wrong. :no:

[Waldo]

Yes waldo the MUA who actually load and unload ships

No problems Ashore, I stand corrected. :2tsup:

[astrid]

Because I worked at the waterside hotel, public Bar and I assumed that all the pilfered and usless objects the old blokes offered to their favorite barmaids , were out of the containers they were unloading/ storing ?
Maybe they traded with the MUA for cans of pilfered paint.
and i may have got the Unions mixed up but my point was that whichever one it was they used their power for the benifit of others.
As have the ACTU V Hardy and you still havent acknowledged that.

Lighten up, we all know the skallywags regarded it as a bit of a game with the bosses.
Its part of our graet Australian culture
Read "under the hook" by wendy lowensein I think
Astrid:U

[TEEJAY]

Speaking of unions and politicians and lovely wharfs - what ever happened to dear Peter Rieth (SP?)

He was a nice chap I miss him.

[Cliff Rogers]

Little Kev is taking legal advice on re-opening the AWB investigation & this time he wants it to include the polies...
I think he is hoping to bury/gaol half the Libs ex-ministers... :rolleyes:

That would be one way of getting rid of the remaining opposition. :D

If it happens, you can bet the cost of it will kill off half his promises. :cool:

[silentC]

He's already subtly dropped one: there will be no department of home land security.

[AlexS]

Has Phil ruddock truely been kidnaped by the taliban?
Or is he so busy shredding stuff he cant take a tea break on his workchoices award.
:U

One can only hope!
This useless waste of space is supposed to be my local member. Didn't see him before the elections, won't see him after.

He'll collect his fat salary for being an unornamental paperweight.

[astrid]

OH and i forgot the other Kev, wheres he?
checking his mobile phone records?

I may mixed up, but I think hes (Reith) enjoying the benefits of scuttling the republic.
and Amanda is trying to communicate in mandarin to the Italians.
actually I'll go a bit easier on Amanda, having to clean up after Ruddock was a bit like my housework, It keeps on comming.


Astrid:U

[Ashore]

As have the ACTU V Hardy and you still havent acknowledged that.

You bought this up late in the discussion in a vane attempt to cloud the issue, yes the actions of the ACTU v Hardey were good just as the work carried out by other unions and indivudials againt hardy was good , Hardies were criminal in trying to get away with what they did and the lies they told knowing full well the dangers and harm their products were causing , I worked in an industry that used a lot of asbestos , and have lost 3 mates I sailed with to it, we wern't told of the dangers by Hardies or the Ship owners who in some cases were aware of the dangers. my union along with other maratime unions made the ship owners set up a fund to cover medical tests costs etc and this was a flow on from the actions of the ACTU s work.


Lighten up, we all know the skallywags regarded it as a bit of a game with the bosses.
Its part of our graet Australian culture

This is where we are fundermentally diffrent , I do not condone steeling , was brought up differently to that and being a thief is not part of my culture.
I can assure the bosses on the waterfront did not reguard it as a game, nor did the owners of goods stolen from containers :no:

And Astrid I will leave this discussion on unions by saying I do not disagree with you about the great things some unions have achieved in the past , our present culture , lifestyle etc has been infulenced by union actions, as it has been by past politions , buissness men and women , inventers , the climate, geographical location , migrants, etc etc it all adds to who we are the unions are part of this but not the only or best part just another part.:D

[astrid]

Ashore
If you read my posts with a different mindset, no I didnt

and of course they wouldnt' that was the "game"
like stealing wheelbarrows and we all know that story.
think its time to stop the Union stuff as its off topic, goes nowhere.
If you want to continue this then I suggest you start a separate thread and I'll see you there.

Astrid:q