Is this legal/safe?

[TK1]

Hi,

A friend has just had a deck built by a ladscaper, over a drop in their backyard about 2.00m high approx 3.00m x 3.00m area.

I'm going over to look at it, but I've just been informed that the bearers are just nailed to the posts with 3 nails - not rebated into the post, not sitting on top, not bolted at all, just nailed to the edge of 3 posts. :oo:

There's 3 bearers - one nailed into the retaining wall, and two nailed to 3 posts each. The joists are then attached with triplegrips and decking on top.

They haven't paid the landscaper, he's coming back tomorrow to finish off and get paid.

So, my questions:

1. as it's over 1.00m off the ground, should it have gone through council (Whitehorse shire - Nunawading - Victoria)? I thought anything over 1m had to have plans submitted.

2. All info I have (and when I built my deck, closer to the ground), is that it's a regulation/building standard that all bearers are bolted to posts, and ideally rebated too? I assume the posts are 90x90, but I'll check.

Even if it's not a regulation, surely a deck that size, holding a bbq, table, and a few people, shouldn't be supported by a few nails???

Any advice form professionals (or those who know more than I do) would be appreciated, and I can discuss with them before they pay for it.

Thanks,
Darren

[davo453]

Hmmm well the way you describe it it certainly sounds iffy doesn't it. These days you generally don't just but nail bits of timber together if your going to stand on it, but it must be said that such structures have lasted for many years.

There have been many horror stories of people falling off a poorly supported deck or balcony and 2 meters high is surely enough to injure a person.

Sadly I always look at these things from an insurance point of view (my background, retired) and what I would do if presented with a claim for injury resulting from a collapse.

First thing is who built it and are they insured (pass the buck first always). then if not when was it built and who approved it. Then who designed it, where are the engineers drawings etc. If it wasn't council approved and it needed it (be surprised if it didn't) I'd very probably be refusing the claim.

Also If I bought a house from anyone I'd have an inspection done. A decent survey would (hopefully) turn up a structure like that and I would demand the paper work. So not to get that now is going to be a false economy one way or the other.

Just my thoughts............

Cheers


Dave

[oohsam]

As far as I knew, You had to have a permit to build a deck regardless of height, however, a friend how works for the local council told me that its not nescarry if the deck does not exceed a certian size, i dont remember the size. Also, a roof over a deck or anything only needed a permit if it was over a certian size also, again I dont remember the size.

When you're going 1m off the ground, you do need a permit. Regulations advise that you dont HAVE to recess the bearers into the post however its the way it should be done. Its fine to have them bolted in with a bolt and nut, not just screw bolts.

I dont see how nails will hold with a few people on it. There is a guy on the forums here "Thebuildingsurveyor" he knows all the regs etc etc he should give you some info. He is a wealth of information. Im just another bloke, so I may be wrong, but thats what I know.

I wouldnt pay that dude...

[brynk]

gday modelshipwright

regardless of requirement for a permit or not, it is my belief that any 'habitable structure' must be built in accordance with the bca (building code of australia) and usually some equivalent/in-depth form of design code - i would be asking the landscaper which code it was built to and get him to show you the bit where it says use nails to fix bearers off to posts.

in the timber framing code, if only nominal fixing is required (the height gives me concern that a stronger detail would be called for); table 9.4:

Bearer to timber stump/post

4/75 × 3.33 mm or 5/75 × 3.05 mm machine-driven nails plus
1/30 × 0.8 mm G.I. strap over bearer and fixed both ends to stump with
4/2.8 mm dia. each end;
OR
1/M10 bolt through bearer halved to stump;
OR
1/M12 cranked bolt fixed vertically through bearer and bolted to stump
plus 4/75 × 3.33 mm or 5/75 × 3.05 mm machine-driven nails

hope that helps you out...

r's brynk

[bpj1968]

In relation to permits

"Construction of a pergola (unroofed) associated with a house, not exceeding 20sqm in area, not more than 3m high and located no further forward on the allotment than the dwelling = NO"
http://www.whitehorse.vic.gov.au/Page/page.asp?Page_Id=130&h=0

But I think bolts definitely

[thebuildingsurv]

A deck is not an unroofed pergola, No exemptions for decks it needed a permit. There may be overlooking issues. I reckon at least 2 bolts would be needed to each stump and some bracing. For a deck that high, that the bearer hasnt been housed in, you would better of bolting/screwing a peice of timber say 300mm down the face of the post for additional suppport or at the least a heavy duty angle bracket behind the bearer to the post.

[Dirty Doogie]

Sounds a bit dodgy to me - it could be easily tightened up by putting a few heavy L brackets on bearer post / and retaining wall junctions.

[Bloss]

What thebuildingsurv said.

In any case there are two issues 1) whether a permit is needed, and 2) is the design & construction suitable for the purpose (and site).

I am not familiar with Vic rules, but the height would suggest a permit is needed. More critically the structure as you describe it seems under-engineered so would need bolts, as well as preferably some timber cleats or steel brackets (which could be nailed to the posts or walls).

It is quite likely that it would need some angle bracing too as at 2m high it would be easy to induce sway. At a minimum those standing and moving around on the deck would not like the 'moving' feeling, at worst (say with many on the deck at a party and dancing) there could be a catastrophic collapse (especially if the fixing is by nails only).

So get the landscaper to add some more fixings and bracing (all pretty easy to do and not especially costly) and confirm need for permit with your friend's local authority. Since your friend has not paid for the work he has a slight advantage, but really his aim should be just get a good solid approved deck - not an argument with his landscaper (or the council either though . . .).

[TK1]

Hi

Thanks for the replies. All ound advice. I'll see them this week and see if permits were obtained.

Anyway, I spoke to them abotu the dodgyness of the fixings, and they haven't paid the builder so when he's back this week they'll ensre he bolts it together, and ask him a few questions about bracing, etc and won't pay until they're happy.

Regards,
Darren