Minimax Wipe-on Poly Question

[RufflyRustic]

My Minimax Wipe-on Poly is starting to thicken up. The tin instructions say nothing about thinning it down.

There's a good two inches of poly left and I'd prefer not to waste it, if possible.

1) Does anyone know if Minimax has a website or web presence?
2) If cleanup is with mineral turps, then thinning with the same would be bad?
3) Can Minimax wipe-on poly be thinned or is it now on it's way to being off?

Thanks
Wendy

[munruben]

Not sure Wendy but I know it does have a shelf life, maybe yours is past its use by date. Would be interesting to know if it can be revived.

[goodwoody]

Wendy, It is easy! Build something then use it.:2tsup: I know that you have some redgum stashed up there at your place.

[LGS]

Hi Wendy,
It does indeed have a shelf life and once it becomes sticky it doesn't dry.:((.
I tried using some turps to thin it at one stage and it was an unmittigated disaster. Don't know if anything else will work though.

Regards,

Rob

[martrix]

My Minimax Wipe-on Poly is starting to thicken up. The tin instructions say nothing about thinning it down.

There's a good two inches of poly left and I'd prefer not to waste it, if possible.

1) Does anyone know if Minimax has a website or web presence?
2) If cleanup is with mineral turps, then thinning with the same would be bad?
3) Can Minimax wipe-on poly be thinned or is it now on it's way to being off?

Thanks
Wendy


Hi Ruffly, yes it is a pain in the butt. $30-$40 worth of poly just goes like that.:~ I think the problem is with the air that is left in the tin. once you have used say half of the poly, the remaining product starts the drying process using the air that is left in the tin. If you could store it in a vacuum sealed container, that would probably fix the problem, or keep decanting it into containers with no air space left in them. I think Skew mentioned once that storing it in an old wine cask (silver plastic sack?:-) meaning that you can expel all of the air after use could be a solution. Don't know if any one has tried it.

There was a discussion once on Mineral spirits once, which it was they recommend to thin it. Cant remember what "Mineral Spirits" was in Aussie terms.

I had a tin of minwax that was going off, so I mixed in some enamel thinners with it and it is still going 8 months later. Looks pretty ordinary and has lost all of the gloss, but it still works as a sealer.

Maybe a wine bottle with one of those vacuum plugs (http://www.vacuvin.nl/Vacuum_Wine_Saver_Handleiding_215.html)that you can suck the air out with a plunger would work? Any one tried this?

[Pusser]

Is this the same thing - googling minimax gets me lots of maths?
http://www.minwax.com/products/ Sorry if wasting your time.

[Honorary Bloke]

Wendy,

Minwax wipe on poly is a wiping varnish with poly in it. So, it will gel up after it is opened. You have a few choices.

What I do is fill the can with clean, glass marbles (I promise, it's true :D) as I pour it out, to bring the level back up the to the lid and take out all the oxy. You can also get a heavy gas aerosol called Bloxygen to spray in there to offset the air. Or, just admit that it has a short shelf life and use it up. Otherwise, plan on buying it often.

BTW, Minwax Wipe on Poly over here is cheap as chips, so no Worries. :rolleyes:

[RufflyRustic]

Bugger!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'd love to use it on the Redgum, but I need that beltsander HWMNBO has been promising me :(


Ah well, I shall go and find some marbles or something for the next batch I buy. Or stock up on some more containers ina variety of sizes.


Thanks for the info and especially the link Pusser! Don't know why it was so hard to find now :doh:, but it was :rolleyes:

Cheers
Wendy

[DJ’s Timber]

A quick search found this company (http://www.psquareagencies.com.au/) in WA that has Bloxygen that HB mentioned

[rsser]

Dunno if Rustins DO is the same kind of formulation - I'd guess it may be. If so, strain the lumps through a stocking and thin with white spirits. Will give you a bit more life out of it.

[Des.K.]

Hi Wendy

This thread (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=29333) gives a bit of an answer to your question. The response to MF3106's query to Minwax outlines what can be done to aged poly. I'm not sure how effective it is though. I trashed my Minwax that went off. I now only pour out what I need into a smaller container, then close the tin straight away. This might extend its open life a little longer - or maybe not. Can only hope.

Great stuff tho. Very easy to apply.

Regards

Des

[astrid]

Hi wendy,
I dont know if it will work the same way, but I mix jelling cabots DO with wax polish (liberon)
this creates a lovely thick paste that can be applyed to raw timber, let dry then buffs up really well( you can colour it with powder coulors too)

use 50/50 mix experiment with about 100ml of each and see if it works the same way that DO does

astrid:)

[MacS]

Hi Wendy,

Our (USA) Mineral Spiirits is the same exact solvent as your (UK & AUS) White Spirits, or your Spirit Turpentine. Buy the cheapest one sold.

Polyurethane, is basically the same as your natural varnish resins, except Polyurethane is made from man-made synthetic resins. It is consided a "reactive coating" meaning it does not redisolve once cured, where as, the Shellacs and Nitro Lacquers which are "evaporative coatings" will disolve over and over whenever recoated.

[Big Shed]

Hi Wendy,

Our (USA) Mineral Spiirits is the same exact solvent as your (UK & AUS) White Spirits, or your Spirit Turpentine. Buy the cheapest one sold.

Polyurethane, is basically the same as your natural varnish resins, except Polyurethane is made from man-made synthetic resins. It is consided a "reactive coating" meaning it does not redisolve once cured, where as, the Shellacs and Nitro Lacquers which are "evaporative coatings" will disolve over and over whenever recoated.


Mac, there is no such product in Australia as Spirit Turpentine. We have 2 main hydrocarbon solvents, Mineral Turpentine (http://www.diggersaust.com.au/files/White%20Spirit.pdf) and White Spirit (http://www.diggersaust.com.au/files/White%20Spirit.pdf)
As well as differences in boiling range, density and vapour density, the biggest difference is in aromatics content. Mineral Turps is much higher in aromatics (46-48%) than White Spirit (16%), hence Mineral Turps has better "cutting" power, ie it thins out an enamel much quicker than White Spirit. Because of the lower aromatics, White Spirits is the solvent of choice for sign writing enamels for use on polycarbonate, if Mineral Turps was used here it would induce stress cracking in the polycarbonate.
It also makes White Spirit the solvent of choice in cheaper enamels, you can bung more in to reach a given viscosity.

There are other differences, but I think the above illustrates that these 2 solvents are not the same.

Wendy, if you want to try and thin the Minwax Poly, use the Mineral Turps rather than the White Spirits. It is at best a temporary solution (excuse the pun) though.

[RufflyRustic]

thanks for that Big Shed.

All I need is enough for one last coat on the Lattice box. If I can get that much out of it, then I'll be extremely happy. I'll also be making sure I buy the Plastic cap container, not the metal one.

cheers
Wendy

[MacS]

I meant to say "Mineral Turpentine."

All solvents can be made into different divisions and still use these names, numbers are only sigmificant when they are special ordered to special customers, this applies to all solvents.

I read through many Goverment MSDS and on all 3 of these distillated solvents, and all three of these that are sold to the general public all use the same name, the solvent name that is used when there are changes in the formula becomes Stoddart Solvent, which denotes a variation in the solvents divisions. It then may read Stoddart Solvent, mineral spirits...

Its like "Lacquer Thinners" there are many formula made, yet they all will work, some are different and are made for specific lacquers, but still are called lacquer thinners.

Every, search I did, showed them as all as "Mineral Spirits" and then their synonyns. (sp)

If you go into paint stores, arts and cratfs shops, home inprovement centers you will find variations of these solvents all with the same name, some are cheaper in price, and in different divisions, no one know this, its not listed, but they all will work, some better then others. I'm sure you have had some solvents from different companies in different cans that one was better then the other. I think we all have found this over time.

[Big Shed]

Yeah, whatever Mac:2tsup:

[astrid]

i assume you already know this, but store the cans upsidedown,
prevents air reaching product

astrid

[MacS]

By turning the cans upside down, the bottom oil will work, but the oil that is now on top of the can will skim and still harden over.

You need to remove the air with Bloxygen, use smaller jars, or fill the oil with marbles to the tops.

[starr]

Another way to prolong the life of finishing products is to put them into an old wine cask bladder. Remove the spigot to clean it out (and let it dry). Pour in your product, replace the spigot and squeeze lightly with the spigot open until you see the product and then close. Most air is removed and it keeps quite well.

[astrid]

dosent the product degrade the plastic? if not sounds like a good idea
astrid

[astrid]

HB and Rsser,
re marbles
it would be tough on me too when my kids find out:U
I always thought you were supposed to turn a half full can upside down( this obviosly wouldnt work if you only had 20% left)
My old dad was a painter and finisher,
did his apprenticship in the old days in england, 6 years, scumbling faux finishes etc, did one day per month at cambridge fine art school.
He always used to turn his oil base stuff upside down?

Astrid:?

[Pusser]

I think turning it upside down ensures no air leakage in but the air is still in the bottom (now top). If no air gets in an evaporative finish with reach a stable vapour pressure and not further degrade. if the finish is reactive it will still oxidise and hence some would go off (this is all my theory of course). I like it upside down as when I turn it up the right way the sludge on the top can either be cut off or sinks through the mixture and is easier to mix. How this applies to min wax I have no idea but it might be applicable.

[starr]

I have never had the finishing material degrade the wine bladder. Eventually there will be some build-up of solids so you just throw it away and get another (we all need an excuse to drink some wine).

[martrix]

I have never had the finishing material degrade the wine bladder. Eventually there will be some build-up of solids so you just throw it away and get another (we all need an excuse to drink some wine).
Cool, so someone has done it. I will be trying it for sure. Only problem is that I don't know what to do with all of that filthy Fruity Lexia?:puke: Anyone know of a good rocket fuel mix?:stirthepot::drunk22:

In theory the bladder is made to withstand alcohol which is a solvent, so it should have no problems with a bit of poly?

Did you have any problems with build-up on/around the nozzle? and do you keep it in the cardboard box to protect it from piercing itself on anything?

[astrid]

thanks pusser
that might explain it
hate to think dad was always wrong:q

astrid

[RufflyRustic]

Well, I think I got Lucky, Very Lucky indeed.

I poured the jellied WoP into a smaller container, mixed in enought mineral turps to nearly fill the jar and mixed thoroughly.

It was such a dream to put on the box. I got two coats on in an hour (took that long to do the lattice rolleyes:)

It looks fantastic! A very neat, even coating, very smooth, so just what I was looking for!!! And even better I have about 200ml left over and a couple of smaller jars ready to be used as well.

Oh yes, I got very lucky! :U

Cheers
Wendy

[ciscokid]

Wendy, Just to let you know, it's probably not the cap that is the problem as it is the air left in the half used container. Bloxygen will help, as will the marble trick (very clever trick, that. Wish I had thought of it). I, too, have had a similar product go bad and there goes not only a perfectly good product, but perfectly good money. It's a bummer, but can we do? Hang in there kiddo, you'll survive.

[martrix]

By turning the cans upside down, the bottom oil will work, but the oil that is now on top of the can will skim and still harden over.

You need to remove the air with Bloxygen, use smaller jars, or fill the oil with marbles to the tops.

Hi Mac, seeing as though Bloxygen is just a blend of Inert gases, would this welding gas used for my MIG do the same thing?

Argoshield – for MIG welding

Argoshield is the tradename for BOC’s range of shielding gases containing the following three gases:

Argon (http://www.boc-gases.com/products_and_services/by_product/argon/index.asp) – for its ability to create the welding arc that allows spray transfer to be achieved, increasing the amount of weld metal deposited.
Carbon dioxide (http://www.boc-gases.com/products_and_services/by_product/carbon_dioxide/index.asp) – to improve the size and shape of the weld bead through increased melting and improved fusion characteristics.
Oxygen (http://www.boc-gases.com/products_and_services/by_product/oxygen/index.asp) – to reduce the surface tension of the molten metal and droplet sizes and therefore reduce the amount of welding wire needed, and the risk of cracks. The combination of the properties of the gases used in the Argoshield range create mixtures that can be tailored for welding a range of material thickness. The Argoshield range provides improved welding performance and a lower operating cost than other shielding gases.

[MacS]

Martrix

Give them a try. and let us know what happens.

[martrix]

Martrix

Give them a try. and let us know what happens.

Will do. This is what Bloxygen is made up of. Looks to be fairly similar. So I take it you just lift the lid enough to get the nozzle inside the tin and blast away for a few seconds and quickly replace the lid?

INERT GAS BLANKET
NON-FLAMMABLE AEROSOL
UN# 1950 / 2.2
0.34 OZ. (9.7G) PER CONTAINER

TOTAL COMPOSITION:
NITROGEN (N2) / CARBON DIOXIDE (CO2) / ARGON (AR)
ALL THREE GASES EXIST IN THE ATMOSPHERE
DOT-REG. 2Q PLUS (18 BAR) ALUMINUM AEROSOL CAN
ORM-D CONSUMER COMMODITY

[MacS]

Yes, thats how to use it.

[Woodlee]

I think turning it upside down ensures no air leakage in but the air is still in the bottom (now top). If no air gets in an evaporative finish with reach a stable vapour pressure and not further degrade. if the finish is reactive it will still oxidise and hence some would go off (this is all my theory of course). I like it upside down as when I turn it up the right way the sludge on the top can either be cut off or sinks through the mixture and is easier to mix. How this applies to min wax I have no idea but it might be applicable.

The fumes from the liquid contaminate the air above the liquid ,slowing down the oxidising process of the rest of the contents .
I store all my paints and finishes up side down as well ,have done for along time.
IIRC it was a painter who put me onto the idea ,years ago.


Kev.

[astrid]

thanks for the explaination,
I bought a 4 ltr of cabot DO, as a supposed saving,
I kept it upsidedown and it lasted a lot longer than if I hadnt
trouble was I wasted so much decanting it that now i stick to the 1 ltr size, still its good to know my old dad knew somthing way back then

astrid:)

ps he would have loved this forum,
he really knew the old finishing stuff

[MacS]

I disagree, if you have air space left in the can, and regardless if you leave the can upside down, or downside up, the side of the can with the air will begin to oxicidize and form a hard skin because of the air remaining on either side the can.

How long it takes either way is insignificant, turning it upside down will allow it to pour out and be useable, but the lose of content will be the same in the end no matter how you store it..

Either replacing the air in the container with objects like marbles, pepples, etc. or a gas, the drying oils will harden in time according to how much reactive resin or air is still present in the can.

[astrid]

turning a can upsidedown is cheaper, faster, cleaner and less time consuming than any other method:U
Only a trial can tell if it works( and probably on some products better than others.
only thing I can say is I have stored oil base and acrillic paint and danish oil this way(paint for years) and its never formed a skin on the top/bottom

good luck
Astrid

[MacS]

Well, you must be the only one in the world who can claim that feat.

If that was all it took, then why are there so many threads on this subject and other finishing forums.

If you said, you thin out the "oil finishes" where the solvent was greater then the amount of drying oil, then thats another story that was never mentioned here. That old finishing trick works, but it has its drawbacks.

If there is air inside the can, no matter which way you turn the can, and if there is any air remaining in the can it will harden from oxcidation, caused by the oxgyen eating up the molucules in the drying oil, its just a matter of time and how much oxgygen is left inside the can.

Turning the can prevents hardening on the bottom, but not handening on the top, all your doing is changing where the air is, and that is were the skimming will occur,

You can't fool "Mother Nature" by turning the cans upside down. But you can fool her by using different size containers and filling them to the top, or filling the containers with marbles, pepples, etc, or by replacing the air with bloxygen gas.

[Groggy]

I once tried that upside down trick with some paint. Opened the can after a couple of years and it looked great. During stirring I went through the skin on the bottom and all sorts of crud and rust came up. I had to throw the tin away. Nowadays its smaller tins and marbles or use the stuff up on something fairly quickly. Must try bloxygen one day.

[astrid]

how many years ?
time tricks us all
astrid

[Groggy]

Two to two and a half, no more.

[MacS]

This finishing article appeared in the Australian Woodworker in 2006

I hope you enjoy reading it.