Help needed-repairing veneer on baby grand piano

[Big Bird]

G'day all,

I have recently purchased a really old and banged up baby grand piano that I am undertaking a complete restoration of.

I should know better, but all of the strings have been removed, the frame sent to be repaired and so on...There are many piano experts around the world telling me I should spend the money on therapy and not the piano, but trust me....this is therapy.

Anyway, my question is regarding walnut veneer. There is a section on the top of the piano that has bubbled and I fear that if I mearly sand it I will end up going through to the base timber, which I believe to be maple.

What I know about veneering you could put on the back of a postage stamp, but I am determined to do as much of the work myself as possible and learn all of the neccessary skills.

I discovered this last night as I started stripping the varnish from the top cover.

Is it possible to simply purchase walnut veneer in this way?

How is the existing (damaged) veneer removed? and

How is the new veneer applied?

Thankyou for any assistance.

I have a heap of photoes of what has been done so far at: www.myspace.com/harryg73 (http://www.myspace.com/harryg73) if that helps you help me.

[Sebastiaan56]

Hi Harry,

I cant help you directly but if you post a link to this post in the Finishing section of the forum the gurus of finishing hang out there.

Good luck and keep us posted, Ive taken on a few doozies in my time but nothing like this,

[Neil]

Is the veneer damaged or has it just bubbled up? does it have a hole in it or major cracks etc?

Cheers :)

[Big Bird]

All of the above?

[seriph1]

WELCOME TO THE FORUM BB! Not sure if the following will be of any use, but here goes........It is a big project but a worthy one I reckon.... Baby Grands are wonderful!

There's a guy called Liam who worked with Porter's Paints (South Yarra) who 'may' be able to help, but possibly not in a way so far considered. he may be able to apply a high quality faux finish to the damaged veneers and blend the repairs in so they're not noticeable - the reason I suggest this is because all the veneers on the piano are the same age, species, been through the same conditions etc etc .... and finding convincing replacements may not be possible.

I would be keen to see the damaged areas you're mentioning as I have repaired cabinet veneers that have cracked and bubbled by injecting diluted PVA under them and applying heat and pressure .... for the splits in the veneer, I stole slivers from the bottom of the cabinet and glued them in place.... they weren't invisible but only I knew where the repairs were. This work was on a very expensive console radio which was sold to a collector - I replaced the 'stolen' bits with modern walnut veneer from a place in Thomastown, now no longer in business.

[MacS]

B.B.,

Most veneers in that time period used hide glues for their gluing of the case piece and the veneers, to soften hide glues you can use heat or vinegar, which will dissolve the hide glue.

You may need a combination of the two, plus a scraper.

I would remove it all and then re-veneer it, save some pieces in case you need to do some other patching on the piano.

Good Luck

[Big Bird]

OK then,

Where can I purchase veneer. It must be available somewhere.

Thanks for the faux finish idea, but no thanks, I want the real thing.

So if anyone knows where to get the stuff in the greater Melbourne metro area, I would be most appreciated.

Cheers
HARRY

[old_picker]

see here for some veneer suppliers (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=8928)

sounds like a big project

why dont you post some pics?
1st question is do you want to restore the piano or stabilise the damaged veneer

[seriph1]

I agree that some pics would really help folks here to recommend a course of action - it may be that the veneer all needs replacing or it may be that none of it does .... just had a thought - if an accurate image can be provided of the veneer in good condition, someone on the forum may even have some laying around .... I threw away probably 40 small sheets of veneer when I moved .... others may not have been so dumb.

Finally, bigger Op Shops and the like may have veneered robes or dressing tables that match or come close to your veneers .... just a possibility.

[DJ’s Timber]

I have a heap of photoes of what has been done so far at: www.myspace.com/harryg73 (http://www.myspace.com/harryg73) if that helps you help me.

Can you put some photos up here?

To see the photos on your link, requires you to register and some of us may not want to do so.

[chrisb691]

Peter Scott Young, in Ringwood, has a large stock of veneers. He's a really nice guy, and a pleasure to deal with. I would try an iron, and see if you can gently remove the damaged veneer. Then give Peter a ring, and make a time with him to toddle over with the piece of veneer. You then have the best chance of matching.

If hide glue was used originally, then you have to use it when you fit the new piece.

Veneer supplies. Has a fairly wide range

Peter Scott Young
37 Alexadra Rd
East Ringwood, Victoria 3135
(03) 9870 8733

[astrid]

repairing veneer or replacing it can be a tough job or surprisingly easy
a few pointers
1. walnut veneer is very expensive and hard for a beginner to put on well.
result; cost a lot with disapointing result.
2. trying to repair the old stuff is the cheaper option as it costs nothing in materials and if your not happy with the result you can go back to 1
3. get a quote from a couple of proffessional restorers.
they may be able to restor the old for less than you'll pay for that much walnut

if you want to have a go yourself here's a method

first take the top off the piano.

strip off the old polish with meths
the reason not to use stripper is that you dont want to get gunk under the broken bits of veneer or it wont stick down cleanly

be carefull not to break any veneer where its bubbled but intact

with a soft brush and whatevere else comes to mind, clean as much dirt dust or small splinters out of the broken areas

with the tip of a warm iron or a thermostatic control soldering iron press down v gently on the blisters somtimes this is enough to melt the old glue underneath

if this dosent work, make a small cut along one edgeof the bubble with the grain with a razor blade, apply pva along the length of the cuti
now press and release the bubble gently, the glue should suck under the bubble
whem youve worked in sufficient glue, wipe of excess and put a weight on the bubble (not a timber one !)

the broken stuff can be fixed the same way just use a razot to get out as much old glue and dust as you can. use masking tape to fix it down

where the veneer is missing, fill with araldite coloured to match, use the slower drying stuff.
when its all dry, gently sand the filler to level

re polish the top

warning, this requires patience:)
astrid

[jerryc]

Seriph 1 is right on the ball on this. Removing veneer is the last option and bubbles can be repaired by slitting the bubble and injecting cross linked pva (Tradesmans choice is one brand I have used successfully). Taking pieces from hidden areas for patching is spot on and one other tip is to cut the patch in a narrow diamond or even saw edge shape along the grain. The eye picks up a cut across the grain but is less able to see a longer narrow diamond. Obviously you would choose a patch as close to the grain as possible but do not discount using a fine brush and artists colour to blend the patch into the major work.

Jerry

[astrid]

your right about patching with pinched verneer if the missing bits are on the edge, but if the holes are in the middle I'd fill em.
cutting a patch where there is no open edge is tricky!
also if the veneer has a large split its probably where the carcass timber has shrunk.
youll need to tap a shim into the carcass to support the veneer

astrid:)

[Big Bird]

OK..here's the deal, before I stuff up an antique, I am working on a cabinet to hold a somewhat sentimental collection of liqueurs, brandies, ports and other spirits.

I was simply going to paint this unit as I would a car, but now I see it as an opportunity to learn a whole new heap of skills on a cheap project rather than muck up an expensive one, so I have decided to veneer this cabinet first.

The piano can wait for a while and as it and my bottle collection will be in the same area the two should match quite well.

And further to other questions here, if I knew how to post photoes here I would.

Cheers
HARRY

http://s235.photobucket.com/albums/ee37/HarryG73/?action=view&current=1.jpg

[Big Bird]

1) I have a cabinet I have been working on that instead of giving it the emporite finish I think I will take a crack at veneering and laquering it.

It will end up in the same area as the piano, so the two items will look very good together.

I will just leave the piano on hold as I would rather attack it with a modicum of confidence.

I have a carport to build this weekend coming so it will probably be a couple of weeks before I can give anyone an update.

But when you mention that walnut veneer is very expensive...Does it come in standard 2440 X 1220 sheets and if so what sort of cost am I looking at?

2) If I knew how to post photos here I would.

[jerryc]

Patching in the centre where a piece is missing is tricky but it can be done. The method I have used successfully is to cut the patch in the way I outlined above and use that patch as a templet, laying it over the hole to cut the missing area to the same shape. Cut the patch to the finished shape on top of the hole and remove the broken edges. When cutting, cut with a slightly inward slope so the effect is that the patch wedges into the hole. Using veneer tape over the patched area is advisable. When patched I use a scraper to blend the possible slight height variations between patch and ground. I hope I am making myself plain. It requires practice and patience to get it right. Problem with using araldite or any other epoxy is that the colour is solid and unless you are very skilful with a brush or pen in faking the grain, the patch shows. I did say I've used PVA glue to fix patches but as Astrid has said, hide glue can be reactivated.
Practice is the best way to find out what is best for you. Before I attempted repairs I spent some time practising and had a few hours of frustration Incidently I use a sharp pointed surgical scalpel on veneer repair as the point gives me greater control over cutting and patching, but any modeller's knife with a pointed blade would do.

Remember that modern veneer is much thinner than the older material so that any attempt to match the two is difficult and unless you have had a great deal of experience in this type of repair, I would not advise it.

[Big Bird]

I have had a good look over the top of this piano, and there does seem to be many repairs like you have all metioned.

I keep hearing from the piano "experts" I have consulted that the only place this instrument should be is at the tip, but for all the dust on top of it when we inspected it, and the prospect of another long and arduous project, and the fact that what I know about pianos you could write on the back of a postage stamp I could not throw out a 100+ year old Grand Piano.

I have since had it reliably dated to 1873-74 so it is 100 years older than I am.

I am not too concerned about it's final value versus the final cost. Lets face it, I have seen some of the amazing work you guys do, and if you started to factor in your time, you wouldn't do it either.

Anyway, I will probably give your suggestions a go first, got nothing to lose.

Cheers

[seriph1]

BB what suburb are you in? I would be happy to call in for a cuppa and a chat about the project, not that I am in any way a veneering expert, but it may help to have two brains working on some ideas. Anyway, the offer's there, except I am pretty tied up over the next two weeks with building floats for Myer and trying to design three kitchens....maybe after that?

veneers come in a range of sizes depending if they're roto-cut or sawn from back-cut or quarter-cut logs, I believe. Each piece is around 300-450 wide from memory. The comments about thickness are relevant as modern veneers seem to be around .9mm where I have used/repaired cabinets with up to 2.5mm stuff.

[seriph1]

Tell me it has an iron frame .....pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease

[Big Bird]

LOL...It has an iron frame, however it does not extend over the pin block, like a totally modern piano.

The action is also a little antiquainted however it does operate like a modern piano.

I saw this thing on Ebay on a Friday Evening and arranged to inspect it on Sunday afternoon. Between then I probably spent some 40 hours online trying to learn as much as I could about pianos, and one thing I did was make sure it had an iron frame.

Oh, The Frame...The frame had a massive fracture (no exageration) the section that held the top ten treble keys had totally cracked away from the rest of the frame and was removed as a seperate piece.

To that end the frame has been sent to a cast iron specialist for repair.

As I think I have intimated....I have so jumped in the deep end with no life guard on duty here....but that is how I enjoy life.

Anyways, I'm in East. St. Kilda which is a bit far from Kilmore for just a cuppa, but thank you so much for the offer, it is so nice to have people offer to help as opposed to telling you just to throw it away and not try.

I figure what ever man makes breaks....fortunately we are also smart enough to fix stuff.

[seriph1]

heh - I LIVE in Kilmore - as a branding consultant and period kitchen designer I do NO business in Kilmore .... each time I tell someone what I do up here, they think I freeze brand the bums of cows.

I have a client in Highett whom I work with each Wednesday until 2PM so it is all possible .... and as far as how you enjoy life - me too. I love nothing more than making stuff unbearably hard for myself - :D:D:D

[astrid]

understant your outlook re a lovely thing that will go to the tip without some non cost effective TLC
piano restorers are quite rightly telling you that its not worth the effort , but they see things from a commercial point of view.
save the piece if you can:2tsup:

even if you dont make a perfect job it wont end up on the tip and in years to come it may be worth commercial restoration
:):)
If you want to patch a hole in the middle of a piece, loosen the veneer around the hole, insert a piece of new veneer under the ragged edges, then cut with a fine sharp blade (razor) through both pieces of veneer, this way you get a perfect fit.
try to find a piece that matches in grain,
the trouble is that matching the grain is almost impossiable and you can see that a patch has been inserted as you have 4 edges to match up with.
whereas if you fill the hole depending on your eye for colour you can fake the grain more naturally.
I'm in brighton ,if you want some help email me
astrid
ps check out the chair i'm restoring for a client in the wood whispering women forum
pps if you need help with photos ask somone on the forum,
they help me all the time:U

astrid