Treated Pine for Vegetable Garden

[patty]

After advice I am building some raised garden beds out of H4 treated pine in one section I am planning putting in a Vegie Patch someone told me you should not use treated pine for Vegie gardens as the chemicals in the pine eventually leech into the soil and are absorbed by the plants is this true or BS I have seen thousands of gardens and vegie patches made using these any thoughts

[glock40sw]

G'day.

Have a read of the other threads on treated timber...


It is a big furphy. Use the treated pine and don't worry.

[Honorary Bloke]

is this true or BS

What Glock said. It's BS. Go for it. :)

[bugsy]

i wouldnt be too hasty to disregard treated pine as being safe.
Treated pine play equipment and seats are now being taken out of school and has been under review for a couple of years now.

If these bits of wood are going to be wet all the time then i would think of using something else

[JackoH]

That's 'cause the little kids tend to eat stuff like that, or at least have direct contact with it bugsy.

[fenderbelly]

IMO if the vegies are just for you then it's only your health you have to worry about but if you have kids i would seriously think twice about using treated pine in the vegie garden.

[Mcblurter]

Hi Patty
I have used treated pine but painted it with a water based bitumen. My main concern was my two young boys playing on it and touching it then putting their hands in their mouth. I have read a lot on treated pine and the more I read the less concerned I was, but have played it safe with the bitumen.
Cheers
McBlurter

[echnidna]

i wouldnt be too hasty to disregard treated pine as being safe.
Treated pine play equipment and seats are now being taken out of school and has been under review for a couple of years now.


Another urban myth gone mad.
CSIRO reports state there is neglible risk from treated pine in playgrounds.

[Geoff Dean]

I've used treated pine around my vege gardens for the last 7 years, All veges have grown exceptionally well.

Apart from the extra arm that has started growing from the middle of my back, there appears to be no side effects.:D:D:D

[bugsy]

Another urban myth gone mad.
CSIRO reports state there is neglible risk from treated pine in playgrounds.

imagine the backlash if any risk was identified in public school grounds?

CSIRO are government funded.

You are entitled to believe whatever you are told or read and form your own opinions.
As i am.


That's 'cause the little kids tend to eat stuff like that, or at least have direct contact with it bugsyyes. But it also about leaching when wet.
And that is what the original topic is all about.

[SilentButDeadly]

CCA timber has been banned from new playgrounds since early 2006.....but is otherwise considered 'safe'.

http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Copper_chrome_arsenic_(CCA)_treated_timber?Open

Personally, I would choose untreated hardwood sleepers....but that's just me.

Have a squiz at http://www.apvma.gov.au/chemrev/arsenic_faq.shtml about 2/3rds the way down is a specific reference to vegetable patches

[rod1949]

On "is your house killing you" last night on SBS the program was exactlly that a bloke had treated pine eveywhere... the chemicals were leaching out into his veggie garden... everything was contaminated

[Bleedin Thumb]

Even though I am firmly in the "There is nothing wrong with TP for playequipment camp", I too would use untreated hardwood for my veg garden. Isn't that the whole point of growing your own vege's - having control of what chemicals you use on them.

BTW copper is toxic to plants over a certain concentration and pH.

[HappyHammer]

Patty,

I played it safe with mine and lined it with thick black plastic stapled at the top and tucked under the pine where it touches the ground. Whether true or not this gave me some peace of mind.

HH.

[echnidna]

and some plants look for heavy metals for their nutrients (beetroot for example)

[Bleedin Thumb]

Patty,

I played it safe with mine and lined it with thick black plastic stapled at the top and tucked under the pine where it touches the ground. Whether true or not this gave me some peace of mind.

HH.


Shhhhh.............. no one tell HH about the dangers of PVC:D

[HappyHammer]

Shhhhh.............. no one tell HH about the dangers of PVC:D

I know all about that....Don't wear your PVC pants when fighting a bush fire 'cause if an ember drops inside you gum boots you'll barbecue your assets....:o

HH.

[patty]

Well thanks for all the replys people! I am still going to go and use the treated pine but to be on the safe side and for a bit of peace of mind i will do what Happyhammer did and line the back of it with Black plastic good idea!I was also going to stain it will the stain I apply help seal the nasties in the treated pine and stop it from leeching out? Obviously i know overtime it will eventually come out but does anyone else know of a method that might keep it in the wood?

[SilentButDeadly]

You'd need to totally seal the timber with something impressively waterproof to keep the CCA treatment in.......if it lasted forever then you'd never be forced to replace it!!

Bizarre really, CCA treatment gets you a chunk of timber with a H3 durability rating but you can get that from an untreated chunk of Oz hardwood straight from the sawmill....some can even do H4. And that rating never changes....unlike in treated pine.

[Bleedin Thumb]

Exactly SBD, that's why I don't care much about the CCA debate as its led me to start using good hardwood - its weened me of using treated pine and so less chemicals are entering the environment because of me.

I know that the use of CCA treated pine represents little hazzard to the user but if there are alternatives that have NO hazzards why not use them.

[glock40sw]

G'day All.
You do realise that even Hardwood will be CCA treated (or other presevative) if it has sapwood on it and is used inground, don't you?

H3 above ground. H4 in-ground.

We used to treat all our hardwood landscaping timber CCA H4.

This is what I have around my gardens 8X2 CCA treated Hardwood.

Mmm..Treated timber.....It doesn't get any better than this.

P.S. I, my wife, our kids, our pets, the native wildlife, the neighbours and their collective kids and pets are all still alive and well and to date, none of us have grown a second head or a sixth finger.

[Pete J]

Patty

If I were you, I would take all this unqualified advice for what it is worth! get some useful advice, and don't take me as a marker!

Regards

[pharmaboy2]

wouldnt csiro reports be considered qualified advice?

Watches alittle of that sbs show - its decidly disturbing how the 21 st century seems to have become the century where science takes a backseat to remour and inuendo - got cancer, go to a herbalist?/??

[baccad]

After advice I am building some raised garden beds out of H4 treated pine in one section I am planning putting in a Vegie Patch someone told me you should not use treated pine for Vegie gardens as the chemicals in the pine eventually leech into the soil and are absorbed by the plants is this true or BS I have seen thousands of gardens and vegie patches made using these any thoughts

Read this and then decide.
http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%20Chalker-Scott/Horticultural%20Myths_files/Myths/CCA%20wood.pdf

[Mcblurter]

Hi Patty
I used a Cromellin water based bitumen paint. It is black and I think looks rather good. I found that putting it straight on that it sat more on the surface so I watered some down first, like a wash and coated it with that, then put a full coat on top of that. Any chips etc are easily painted over and matches the existing paint. Cromellin seem to have a lot of waterproofing products but depends on your budget. I think a 10lt bitumen was around $60.
Also if you get a bit of arsenic in your soil make sure you don't eat the soil!!! If you smoke, drink aclohol, are in the sun a lot, eat fatty foods or high sugar foods then it probably doesn't matter as you won't be able to tell what gave you the cancer, diabetes etc etc!
Cheers
McBlurter

[gorotsuki69]

I personally know Cedric , one of the presenters of 'Is your house killing you' . He lectures at Murdoch Uni. I'll let him know about this thread and see if he can post a response

[SilentButDeadly]

G'day All.
You do realise that even Hardwood will be CCA treated (or other presevative) if it has sapwood on it and is used inground, don't you?


Nope......but then since I buy straight from the mill and I know they don't treat the timber in any way (they don't have the facilities) it doesn't matter....

......but I still don't understand why you'd really need CCA treated timber. My new timber house stumps aren't treated (only the soil around them) and the previous ones lasted 80 years without treatment....

[glock40sw]

......but I still don't understand why you'd really need CCA treated timber. My new timber house stumps aren't treated (only the soil around them) and the previous ones lasted 80 years without treatment....

That is right. But remember...stumps are under the house. they remain mostly dry. They are not exposed to the elements like fence posts or garden edging.

Now, as a producer of treated timber, we are not allowed under the timber utilisation and marketing act, to sell untreated sapwood bearing hardwood. And we also do not know what the end use of the timber is going to be.
If your local sawmill is selling untreated sapwood on hardwood for external use, they are in breach of the timber utilisation and marketing act. Breaches can cost up to $100,000.

[sCORCH]

Now, as a producer of treated timber, we are not allowed under the timber utilisation and marketing act, to sell untreated sapwood bearing hardwood. And we also do not know what the end use of the timber is going to be.
If your local sawmill is selling untreated sapwood on hardwood for external use, they are in breach of the timber utilisation and marketing act. Breaches can cost up to $100,000.

Gidday,

I found that an interesting comment, so I just had a (very) quick look at the Act as I'd not heard it before - I couldn't see the restriction you refer to - are you able to point me to a specific section please?

Cheerio,
sCORCH

[glock40sw]

G'day sCORCH.

I haven't read the TUMA rules for awhile. But, you can contact Timber Queensland in Brunswick Street in The Valley. They have all the relevant info you would need. Talk to Don White.

The rules for sapwood vary from State to State. But because we sell mainly to QLD, we have to abide by the TUMA for QLD.

So, suseptable sapwood on hardwood is not to be sold untreated.
Treatment required is H3 for above ground and H4 for inground and H1 for dried internal.

[Gaza]

correct me if i am wrong but vic does not have same requirments as NSW /QLD.

In NSW
i know that if i was going to use american oak for flooring for argumnets sake it has to be treated against lycubuts borer attack but if it was for a table there is no problem.

it should apply for all timber not just timber used in construction.

[glock40sw]

G'day Gaza.
Yep. Victoria is deemed to be Lyctus free. SO treating Suseptable sapwood is not required.

[echnidna]

nope , i burn me scraps in the heater, if it was treated it'd just be landfill

[Gaza]

G'day Gazza.
Yep. Victoria is deemed to be Lyctus free. SO treating Suseptable sapwood is not required.

does that meam of you produce timber for vic you dont have to treat it, what about vic ash / tas oak.

[glock40sw]

G'day GAza.

technically, Yes.
But it would be a pain in the Arrse segregating the production.
Our production is treated so as to cover all states.
Afterall, from the one production run, we could have packs from that run going to any state in the country or to the U.S.A. or Europe. So it is treated with Diffusol (Boron) H1 for flooring or Tanalith E H3 for decking.
Both of these preservatives are approved in international destinations for the products we produce.

[glock40sw]

what about vic ash / tas oak.

Don't know, cause we don't get those weeds up here in Hardwood Country.:D:2tsup:

[BobL]

It would be interesting to know, of those that did not use the the treated pine for their vegy garden, how many ended up dosing their soil/vegies with equal or more heavy metals in the form of snail pellets or other such goodies. Few people read the labels and know how many milligrams or micrograms per gram are in any of teh stuff they use.

[Gaza]

Don't know, cause we don't get those weeds up here in Hardwood Country.:D:2tsup:

no shi............t

but what if you sell vic ash in NSW it has to be treated but the mill being down south may not treat it.

[glock40sw]

no shi............t

but what if you sell vic ash in NSW it has to be treated but the mill being down south may not treat it.

Well then it would have to be treated to meet NSW requirements.

I don't know if the do or not.

If I was using the product, I'd be asking the question. Afterall, If you install a Vic-weed floor and it gets attacked, who is going to wear the problem?

Installer? More than likely.

[BobL]

Read this and then decide.
http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%20Chalker-Scott/Horticultural%20Myths_files/Myths/CCA%20wood.pdf

Just because this article appears to be on a creditable university website does not necessarily make it worth a second look. The article is posted on an academic's personal website and even though the academic appears to be a well qualified (but does not appear to have done any research on CCA treated timber) I still have significant reservations.

This is not a peer reviewed article but a (biased and possibly fear based ?) opinion riding on an academic reputation. It makes a general reference to literature that does not support CCA treated timber but does not even attempt to systematically refute the literature that does If this was an assignment handed to me by a first year uni student they would fail on this matter alone. When someone posts a personal opinion article like this on the web I generally take little notice of it.

My limited reading of the literature is that no definitive research has been done on whether CCA treated is absolutely safe using isotopically labelled materials and the reason it is being phased out in certain situations is because they don't know and don't want to take the risk. The definitive experiment would be incredibly expensive so it's easier for authorities to write a couple of policy/legal documents to cover their behinds and leave it at that.

[gorotsuki69]

This is Cedric's (co-presenter of Is Your House Killing You?) reply


Hi Phil

Re treated pine and veges. For “normal” individuals it should pose minimal risks, however if you have sensitivities or are particularly prone (pregnant, elderly, very young, immuno-compromised etc) probably a good idea to stay clear. As for advise, ensure there is a sufficient buffer zone & root veges tend to accumulate more than the leafy sorts. Also depends on the age of the timber and the leaching rates as well. Over time will leach out.
As an aside, advise from the garden gurus and gardening australia is to remove such timber.
Hope that helps.
Cheers
Ced

Cedric Cheong
Associate Lecturer
Health & Environment
School of Environmental Science
Murdoch University
Tel: + 61 8 9360 2701
Fax: + 61 8 9360 4997



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[patty]

Well thanks very much people for all of your very insightful views, and research I really appreciate it , i seriously did not think this was going to get much feedback /opinions and all are most certainly interesting thanks again I still have not finished the garden beds have had too many other things on and they are half finished I hate doing that... oh well no Home grown tomatoes for me come christmas day! should have it finished next week weather permitting