Problem staining with Feast Watson Black Japan

[dadalee]

Hi All,

I'm a beginner trying to stain a coffee table and running in a bit of trouble when staining it. I have sand the table and seal the raw timber with ProofSeal. I'm trying to use Feast Watson's Black Japan and find it extremely difficult to apply evenly. The stain seems to be very thick and sticky. I'm applying it with a synthetic brush and you can feel the stickiness when brushing. I have no idea if its suppose to be like this or not. Can someone suggests me what I should do or whenever I did anything wrong?

thanks heaps
Henry

[astrid]

i've never used this product but
did it say on the instruction to seal the timber first?
astrid

[ubeaut]

Sounds a bit condesending I know, Sorry, but get rid of the synthetic brush and read the instructions. Thin the BJ with turps and this will make it a lot easier to apply. Use a rag......... Read the instructions.

[dadalee]

Thanks for the reply guys. Following is the instruction they are given on the tin.

http://www.feastwatson.com.au/WoodstainsBlackJapan.asp

I have tried using a rag as well, but the rag simply absorbs all the stain and leaves nothing on the wood.

[MacS]

Try thinning it out with White Spirits, it might be to old, and the driers are DRY!

Thinning it, should make it workable.

Good Luck

[ubeaut]

OK pretty sketchy application details on instructions.

Take out some into another class or tin container and mix about 10-20% mineral turpentine with it (not white spirits) get rid of the synthetic brush and get a real bristle brush. Doesn't have to be really good just not synthetic. Brush it on and straight away wipe it off with a clean rag. Once the rag is full of the wiped off stuff you can lightly blend the colour with what's in the rag.

Even better still apply it with a rag wiping on and blending as you go, much easier and and a really even coat can be achieved. For darker coat apply a second and third if needed but be careful as the subsequent coats could pull the first one off.

Try it on scrap and get it right before jumping in boots and all with a big job. Mineral turps should thin and and remove a lot of the stuff on the table.

Cheers - Neil :)

[dadalee]

thanks guys, I'll give it a shot with the thinning first and see how it goes.

[MacS]

That's what you are making when you add thinners with Japan colours, a pigmented wiping stain.

This type of stain can be either sprayed, wiped, or brushed on the wood, then it must be "wiped off evenly" do not apply a second coat. Instead, if the colour is too light you should add more colourant into the stain that you made up, as this will darken the colour.

You might also try using a 3" flat brush after the stain is applied and partially wiped off, then take the brush, and brush out the stain going back and forth with the grains of the wood, keep brushing out the stain, and then allow the stain to throughly dry, and then apply your clear coats. The only way to see the true colour of the stain is to clear coat over it.

You should always make up a "complete start to finish sample" until you are satisfied with the sample, never test your finishes on your projects.

[MacS]

Neil,

We do not use the name Mineral Turps over here, we use the names Mineral Spirits - White Spirits - Stoddarts Solvent. I did a search and found out that Mineral Turps is the same exact solvent as the 3 that I mentioned, but with a different name. Here is one that I found...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mineral Turpentine (Laws)

Our MTO (LAWS), is a special boiling point spirit meeting Solvent 145/205 under BIS 1745-1978. It is also known in various names like spirit, White spirit and Turpentine.

This consists of volatile fraction derived from petroleum and is composed essentially of paraffinic, naphthenic and aromatic hydrocarbons in varying proportions. This is clear, water-white in colour. MTO’s Solvent power is used to dissolve say resins, rubber, bitumen and also to reduce the viscosity of the solutions produced.
===============================================
I also did a search for your Methylated Solvent, we call this solvent Denatured Alcohol, both of these solvents are poisinous, although your solvent uses ethonal it also contains ethyl butyl acetone which is poisinous.
We use methonal and another poisinous chemical is added. The ony safe alcohol is ethyl alcohol, which I believe you carry in your line.

[durwood]

The instructions on the tin state that the Black Japan is to be put onto bare timber and then sealed not the other way around.

As you have sealed off the timber the stain is now being applied to a surface that is basically a coat of varnish when you put on the BJ it just sits on top so if you try to put it on evenly it becomes difficult. Anywhere you wipe it a bit more it will remove more stain and therefore become thinner and result in a patchy finish.

If you put it onto the timber after sanding it will soak in and when you wipe it off it will leave an even coat you just add more coats to darken the colour to you desired finish.

[dadalee]

hmm... sounds like I get it wrong at the beginning as well. The stain doesn't seems to get into the wood and everytime I apply an extra layer, the stain simply stripping off the previous coat.

Ok, I know I can wipe off the stain coats with turps and that leaves a patchy finish. I guess now I need to find a neat way to strip off the sealer, do I need to sand it down to raw timber? Or can I use some chemical to do the job?


The instructions on the tin state that the Black Japan is to be put onto bare timber and then sealed not the other way around.

As you have sealed off the timber the stain is now being applied to a surface that is basically a coat of varnish when you put on the BJ it just sits on top so if you try to put it on evenly it becomes difficult. Anywhere you wipe it a bit more it will remove more stain and therefore become thinner and result in a patchy finish.

If you put it onto the timber after sanding it will soak in and when you wipe it off it will leave an even coat you just add more coats to darken the colour to you desired finish.

[MacS]

You don't have to strip off the sealer, you can sand it back, there are cases when a sealer is actually used first to prevent the stain from blotching. The stain will be lighter in colour when used over a sealer, because the stain cannot penetrate through the sealer.

You can try darken the stain, or you can seal in the stain, and then allow the sealer to dry, apply a second stain and then brush it out instead of wiping it off.

If you want to remove the sealer, try either Lacquer Thinners or Acetone.

[astrid]

thanks durwood
thats what i said in the first place
I think your going to have to sand it off as it tend to penetrate the grain
sorry

astrid:)

[MacS]

The reason you had the problem in the first place was Japan Colours are a thick pigmented paste, it must be thinned out to become a stain. They are also used to make up pigmented coloured coatings, colouerd glazes, and shading stains.

The reason why finishers buy Japan colours is because they want to control their own colours for their stains and other colour mediums rather then buying premixed colours.

Mixing and matching colours is a very important part of fine and faux finishing.

[Neil]

Next time you see the road crew out patching the road stop and ask them for a tin or jar of their tar it's the same stuff. Just mix it down with a bit of turps and Bob's your uncle.

Often used to go to the council depot which was directly behind my school of woodcrafts many years ago and replenish the BJ tin from the road crew truck.

Cheers

[MacS]

Neil,

We sell the "tar stain" over here, and we call it Asphalum.

It makes a great stain, you can get many shades of color depending on the amount of tar and solvent that you mix. It can also be mixed to a transparent color, it works great on many woods.

We use to get pieces of tar, and thin it out with gasoline (petrol) as it worked faster then using turps, once it was a liquid then we would add the gum turpentine to make up the stain.