Electrical work, US versus Oz

[Notsquare]

Does any one know why it appears you can do a large percentage of your own electrical work in the US, or at least that is the impression I get after reading Fine Home Building, and why you can't change a pendant fitting here in Australia. Even though most electrical equipment can be bought from Mitre 10 or an electrical wholesaler, no questions asked?

[juan]

You will find at Bunnings in the electrical section clear notices to the effect that installation of electrical cable and fittings sold at their store must be performed by a licensed electrical worker.

[Master Splinter]

The quick answer to your question is - lobbying from special interest groups.

Can someone go and stick some extra beer in the fridge? I'm'a gunna sit down and watch....

[nev25]

Yeah its a bone of contention with the CHIEF ELECTRICAL INSPECTORS OFFICE here in Vic for a while now
They have been trying to stop Hardware store stocking electrical goods and it will come one day.

The compromise was the sign saying all electrical work must be done by a qualified person

Incidental a bunning store worker in Queensland got sued last year for giving someone advice on wiring in a power point that they bought from Bunnings.
The customer when home and electrocuted himself and then sued bunnings for giving unqualified advice.

[another termite]

most wholesalers these days will give zero advice for the same reason, it only takes one clown to make a mistake and sue.

[Notsquare]

I guess most people on this forum would understand how dangerous it can be, but heck we all use circular saws and chainsaws without a license.

[malb]

I guess most people on this forum would understand how dangerous it can be, but heck we all use circular saws and chainsaws without a license.

However, if we make a mistake with a power tool now, it will only injure those in the vicinity at the time, who knew the risk that they were taking, and had the option to walk off if they felt it was unsafe.

With lectricity, you could make a not immediately fatal mistake in fixed wiring today (say broken earth to a pp), sell the property in five years time to someone who has also made a not imediately fatal mistake in an appliance, and when the mistakes accumulate someone gets fried.

Similar caper with plumbers and drainers, lots of DIY people seem to manage to dump stormwater into sewers. Get some persistant wet weather and there's sewer manhole covers popping and brown and white stuff all over the ground.

No particular barrow to push myself, but its amazing how many people know enough to create a hazard, but not enough to recognise it. As an example, I spent 15 years as the Lab Manager for the media training section of one of Melbournes big uni's. Among duties was inspection and issuing of loan equipment for student radio, film and TV productions.

One production group booked out a big 3 phase panel light array for a weekend and bought it back on the Monday, without the three phase connection. In its place were three lengths of 7 amp figure 8 lamp cord with 240 V sockets fitted, and a group of extension leads with 240V male plugs on both ends. Neither the culprit nor the supervising tutor could understand the problem that they had created.

Remember when you could get piggyback plug/socket combos years ago? Some groups in the community decided that since they were so good on one end of an extension cord, it would be fabulous if they were on both ends, as they could run the cord out without having to get the plug and socket at the right end. Pity about the live pins hanging at the load end.

[Honorary Bloke]

Can someone go and stick some extra beer in the fridge? I'm'a gunna sit down and watch....

And pizza. Don't forget the pizza. :D:D

[elkangorito]

Does any one know why it appears you can do a large percentage of your own electrical work in the US, or at least that is the impression I get after reading Fine Home Building, and why you can't change a pendant fitting here in Australia. Even though most electrical equipment can be bought from Mitre 10 or an electrical wholesaler, no questions asked?

In some states in the US (not all states), homeowners are permitted to do their own electrical work, provided that they have an appropriate permit.

The US electrical system is somewhat more difficult compared to the IEC system, which Australia uses. The US electrical regs is known as the NEC (National Electrical Code). The NEC can be viewed online at;

http://www.nfpa.org/itemDetail.asp?categoryID=860&itemID=21227&URL=Publications/necdigest/View%201993%20to%202005%20NEC%20Editions

Enjoy :?.

[Sturdee]

Does any one know why it appears you can do a large percentage of your own electrical work in the US, or at least that is the impression I get after reading Fine Home Building, and why you can't change a pendant fitting here in Australia. Even though most electrical equipment can be bought from Mitre 10 or an electrical wholesaler, no questions asked?

In answer to your question, yes and you would as well if you did a search for this question is raised at least every couple of months.


Peter.

[Pete F]

Never mind the USA, different voltage and (personal opinion, and with all due respect), lousy system designed to run a few light globes. So how about NZ? Same voltage, same CODE even. One country you're allowed to do a significant amount of electrical work, the other country absolutely nothing. Explain that one :roll:

[elkangorito]

Never mind the USA, different voltage and (personal opinion, and with all due respect), lousy system designed to run a few light globes. So how about NZ? Same voltage, same CODE even. One country you're allowed to do a significant amount of electrical work, the other country absolutely nothing. Explain that one :roll:

NZ has the same voltage & code as where? Australia?

[Pulse]

NZ has the same voltage & code as where? Australia?

Sure does, there a few differences such as labelling where cables enter buildings.

Stupid isn't it.. bloody safety rules hidden away in standards australia. It's like hiding the CPR info in medical textbooks just so nobody gets hurt by someone doing it wrong...

Pulse

[elkangorito]

Sure does, there a few differences such as labelling where cables enter buildings.

Stupid isn't it.. bloody safety rules hidden away in standards australia. It's like hiding the CPR info in medical textbooks just so nobody gets hurt by someone doing it wrong...Pulse

Yes, it is stupid. And BTW, I do know that Aus & NZ regs are similar, thus the standards called AS/NZ blah blah.

The only real differences between Oz & Kiwi regs are ambient temps :U.

[nev25]

Remember when you could get piggyback plug/socket combos years ago? Some groups in the community decided that since they were so good on one end of an extension cord, it would be fabulous if they were on both ends, as they could run the cord out without having to get the plug and socket at the right end. Pity about the live pins hanging at the load end.

Yeah it was a sad day when they banded those
I worked in the audio production area before going back to my trade as a Sparkie
Banning the plugs in question made it hard to rig lights and chain amplifiers etc
Banded just because some idiot decided to put the same plug on each end of an extension cord and liven himself up.

[Pete F]

Of the electrocutions that occur in Australia, I would certainly like to know how many are caused by dodgy appliance (dis)repairs/extension cords/etc etc all of which a person can legally do themselves. Apparently as long as it's not part of the fixed wiring 240v is quite safe :doh:

[notenoughtoys]

The only real differences between Oz & Kiwi regs are ambient temps :U.

And they change all the vowels in the NZ regs :no:

[chrisp]

Of the electrocutions that occur in Australia, I would certainly like to know how many are caused by dodgy appliance (dis)repairs/extension cords/etc etc all of which a person can legally do themselves. Apparently as long as it's not part of the fixed wiring 240v is quite safe :doh:

Good question. And while you are asking questions, ask what proportion of the fatalities are qualified and licensed electricians - you might be surprised by the percentage. (The answer can be found on the web).

[Notsquare]

Help us out Chris. Is this a serious problem are people both professional and diy getting fried regularly?

[chrisp]

Help us out Chris. Is this a serious problem are people both professional and diy getting fried regularly?

The overall fatality rate is very low, have a look at this thread for some numbers.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=51292

For electrical fatality figures in Australia, you can go the the various State/Territory electrical authorities web sites for annual fatality figures. The figures are very low, and very "noisy" (i.e. they vary a lot from year to year) but some years electricians made up about 50% of the fatalities.

As to the causes, it is hard to tell from the figures. A crane driver dying after hitting an overhead power line counts as an electrical fatality. This that an electrical wiring fault?

[wheelinround]

Watched Holmes On Homes last night and his electrical nightmare.

Landlord recently had to have a repair to kitchen normal bayonet type and dinning room down lights lights wired to same dimmer switch.

In 6 months we had 6x2 lots of bayonet globes blow and 2x2 sets of down globes blow. Flickering etc over 8 months.

Electrician came and had trouble sorting wiring out.
All was the for separate switches which he put in doing away with the dimmer altogether.
He couldn't understand why the electrician who wired the place had installed it that way saying they should have been on separate switches with a dimmer only on the dinning down lights.

Then he repaired the ceiling plug in the garage for the garage door opener it was hanging loose, he had to come back the next day to fix it again.
He the licensed electrician hadn't attached the earth wire correctly.

[againstthegrain]

Does any one know why it appears you can do a large percentage of your own electrical work in the US, or at least that is the impression I get after reading Fine Home Building, and why you can't change a pendant fitting here in Australia. Even though most electrical equipment can be bought from Mitre 10 or an electrical wholesaler, no questions asked?


The regulations vary from state to state in the US so you have 50 possibilities.

However, I have personally been across the 110/120V 60 Hz from the US AND the 220/240V 50 Hz from Australia and I can unequivocally state that being in contact with the Aussie mains shakes you harder but a slower rate.

:wink:

[Pete F]

People in high risk situations are naturally going to have a statistically higher incidence of electrocution, however it is still remarkably low when compared to other forms of job related death.

I have just purchased a new house and was shocked to find that, in spite of what seems to be reasonably recent electrical work, there was no RCD fitted. Personally I feel they should be absolutely mandatory in every house, not just new houses.

The government and its agencies can bury their heads in the sand and claim that fixed electrical work is only done by appropriately licensed people, which we all know is absolute BS. I think the regs in NZ make a lot more sense, though maybe make DIY work contingent on having an RCD fitted. While they may not provide 100% protection, they certainly go a long way.

Dream over


The regulations vary from state to state in the US so you have 50 possibilities.

Isn't the NEC generally followed?

[silentC]

Well I think we have two issues here: whether any regulations are needed at all; and whether the regulations as they stand are working.

People get these two issues mixed up when they argue that the current regulations are not working and so therefore we should get rid of them.

[Toolin Around]

Lets really heat things up shall we. How do I sharpen the end of the copper wire and then hook up a GPO to it. Should I use the scary sharp method and buff or water stones and ceramic. Wondering if a micro bevel will increase resistance. Which should I sharpen first the green and yellow or the brown wire. SHould I disconnect the wires first if I use water stones...

[chrisp]

Lets really heat things up shall we. How do I sharpen the end of the copper wire and then hook up a GPO to it. Should I use the scary sharp method and buff or water stones and ceramic. Wondering if a micro bevel will increase resistance. Which should I sharpen first the green and yellow or the brown wire. SHould I disconnect the wires first if I use water stones...

Toolin,

I hope you are kidding...
If not, I wouldn't advice sharpening copper on a water stone as it may clog the stone:D

[Sturdee]

Which should I sharpen first the green and yellow or the brown wire. ..

Definitely the green and yellow first, then you will have a good earth. :D



Peter.

[thatirwinfella]

Definitely the green and yellow first, then you will have a good earth. :D



Peter.

i'd disagree with that, unless you are intending to connect it before you bevel/sharpen the others.

the longer the copper is exposed to the atmosphere the more likelihood corrosion will build up [only minutely in say... 5 minutes] which increases the resistance of the join. :D :D

[Fuzzie]

I can't see how you can get three colours wrong. I wonder what these brown and blue wires do?:flamed2:

[Honorary Bloke]

I must say this version of the Great Electrical Rules Debate has been a fizzle. :((

[tims]

New regulations due in next year means that DIY'ers in NZ won't be able to do any electrical work - same as Oz.
The goverment's also gone one step further in that all houses need to be built by qualified builders so it's goodbye to the owner builder from late 2008.:((:((

[Notsquare]

The goverment's also gone one step further in that all houses need to be built by qualified builders so it's goodbye to the owner builder from late 2008.:((:((

It's not long to go here either....

[Bloss]

As was said in a humorous vein above the primary technical difference is the voltage - 240-250 volts vs 110 volts. It is a little more complex than just that difference, but getting zapped at 110 is way less damaging and less injurious than electrocution by higher voltages such as 240-250.

I lived and worked in the US for some time. The regulatory environment in the US states varies widely, but generally when compared to Australia is compliance based rather than using licensing of the installers. So anyone can do the work - but only licensed people can certify the work as compliant with statutory rules and regulations. This is so for residential building work as well as for electrical & plumbing work.

In the case of electrical installations it is usually OK to run cables and even connect GPOs and fittings - but they are left exposed and unconnected to any power source until inspection by an authorised certifier (who are often electricians who will do the work too). In some states that final connection must be done by the certifier or another authorised person.

That approach makes a slot of sense. Here we have the history of guilds who convinced governments to regulate to protect employment and business rather than to be most efficient and effective and bureaucracies that were established then maintained to oversee all the rules & regulations.

Like all legislation it comes in too easily and is damn hard to remove - as Sir Humphrey Appleby says: public services have engines of a Rolls Royce and brakes of a billy cart. Even the changes made to try to get rid of the bureaucratic overload have have made things worse. The building trades especially are restricted and the closed shop of the trades even more constrained while owner builders are a dying breed as it is made all too hard to comply.

A compliance-based system would be a better way to go - but how do individuals compete against organised lobby groups to get fairness in legislation?

[silentC]

In the case of electrical installations it is usually OK to run cables and even connect GPOs and fittings - but they are left exposed and unconnected to any power source until inspection by an authorised certifier
In the case of NSW, you can do that, but only if you are under the direct supervision of a qualified person and that person must be on site at all times that you are doing the work.

I think it's all too hard for governments to implement anything more flexible. The way things stand, the licensed person is responsible for the work they do. If there is a problem, they have to fix it. They are self-certifying, so no other party can be held accountable. If you introduce a system that lets an unlicensed person do the work and have it certified by someone else, then you introduce another party into the equation. This way, all the onus is on the licensed person. I think this is the way things are heading in general.

[Wombat2]

Can anyone in Queensland verify this please? About 6 years ago I was talking to a "Handyman" ie he worked as a professional handyman doing minor building type jobs and maintenance. He told me he had a special permit that allowed him to install a new replacement hot water service ie both the electrical and plumbing side of things provided he was connecting to existing supply and not installing new pipework or connecting to the fuse board. He did say that although it was intended he only replace in existing location he intimated he could put it elsewhere so long as he connected back to the original supply point at the old location. I haven't been able to find out how you can do such a course and if it is in fact valid.

[Sideshow]

Can anyone in Queensland verify this please? About 6 years ago I was talking to a "Handyman" ie he worked as a professional handyman doing minor building type jobs and maintenance. He told me he had a special permit that allowed him to install a new replacement hot water service ie both the electrical and plumbing side of things provided he was connecting to existing supply and not installing new pipework or connecting to the fuse board. He did say that although it was intended he only replace in existing location he intimated he could put it elsewhere so long as he connected back to the original supply point at the old location. I haven't been able to find out how you can do such a course and if it is in fact valid.

Go here:

http://www.deir.qld.gov.au/electricalsafety/training/licences/classes/index.htm#restrict

According to the website - there is a national restricted licensing system, see the link at the bottom of the page.

[Wombat2]

Thanks Sideshow

[Wood Butcher]

Go here:

http://www.deir.qld.gov.au/electricalsafety/training/licences/classes/index.htm#restrict

According to the website - there is a national restricted licensing system, see the link at the bottom of the page.
There is a Restricted Electrical License but it is hard as hell to get. I was talking to a TAFE teacher that ran the course and he said that there was a lot of people that did the course but couldn't get the license. Even instances like sparkies offsiders not being able to get it.

[Gravy258]

hi all, having read all the posts so far..
I did the restricted electrical licence course in Melbourne. I didn't go on to get the licence cause its such a pain in the ???? to keep hold of. I work as a transport refrigeration tech. The licence would of been restricted to this occupation only. Which is fair enough. They wanted you to buy the compliance certificates and fill out and log at least one out a month.
These were $5 a pop, and my boss didn't want to go there. Furthermore the course points out that you don't need a licence to plug in and work on things not part of the hard wiring. So as stanby refrigeration on a truck plugs in to 3 phase. I'm allowed to work on it. Similar with any appliance that plugs in.
-next thing, in the UK you can do you own electrical work and plumbing etc.. apparently its soon to be changed to like here. They have fuses in there appliance plugs from 3 to 13 amps. All sockets there are 13 amp outlets. A nice 3120watts

- I was looking at the web for a travel plug adapter for morocco. There was a nerdy web site that showed every plug and socket of the world. Anyway they said the yanks have 220V two phase, to operate things like fridges, washers etc.. any experience of this? only four countries had the wisdom to have 240v 60hz. All the Germans fault for 50hz. Check out this site for all you need to know

http://users.pandora.be/worldstandards/electricity.htm

Paul

[malb]

Paul, Yes they do have 2phase 220V in the US. Two 110V actives, 180 degrees phase difference, with a common neutral. Used for "High Power" loads like stoves, heatershot water etc. Seems to be derived from the pole transformers using a centre tapped 220V winding, with the centre tap being the common neutral. Because it has 180 degrees phase difference between actives, its possible to bridge loads between actives like bridging audio amps into high powered speakers, giving up to 4 times the load power for a given voltage and current capacity.

[elkangorito]

Paul, Yes they do have 2phase 220V in the US. Two 110V actives, 180 degrees phase difference, with a common neutral. Used for "High Power" loads like stoves, heatershot water etc. Seems to be derived from the pole transformers using a centre tapped 220V winding, with the centre tap being the common neutral. Because it has 180 degrees phase difference between actives, its possible to bridge loads between actives like bridging audio amps into high powered speakers, giving up to 4 times the load power for a given voltage and current capacity.

I'm sorry but the USA does not have a 2 phase 220v supply, which is derived from a transformer. The only way that a true 2 phase supply can be produced is by rotating machinery or electronics. In this case, each phase will be 90 degrees out-of-phase with respect to each other.

The US manufactures its' electricity, like Australia does, in 3 phases, each 120 electrical degrees apart. Each phase-to-phase voltage is 208v. Each phase-to-neutral voltage is 120v. The centre tap (split phase) transformer you speak of, only delivers 110v (120v) single phase with respect to neutral since both supply windings are 180 degrees apart. Both of these '180 degrees out-of-phase' transformer legs will produce a net 0v if vectorially (phasor) summated, therefore they cannot be used to supply a "2 phase" load.

[journeyman Mick]

So how do they get the 220V that they talk of?

Mick

[elkangorito]

The following only applies to the USA.

Firstly, are we talking single or multi phases?


Transformer supply - 3 wire (AKA Split Phase supply).
1] 240v centre tap with dissimilar ends connected - phase to phase = 240v
phase to neutral = 120v

2] 240v centre tap with similar ends connected - phase to phase = 0v
phase to neutral = 120v


Transformer supply - 2 wire (single phase).
1] phase to phase = n/a.
phase to neutral = 120v or 277v.

Transformer supply - 3 phase 3 wire (Corner Grounded Delta, Open Delta & Ungrounded Delta).
1] phase to phase - 240v, 480v & 600v.
phase to neutral - n/a.

Transformer supply - 3 phase 3 wire (Ungrounded Star).
1] phase to phase - 480v & 600v.
phase to neutral - n/a.

Transformer supply - 3 phase 4 wire (Grounded Star).
1] phase to phase - 208v, 480v & 600v.
phase to neutral - 120v, 277v & 347v.

Transformer supply - 3 phase 4 wire (Centre Tap Grounded Delta & Centre Tap Grounded Open Delta).
1] phase to phase - 240v.
phase to neutral - 120v (A & C phases), 208v (B phase to neutral - High Leg).



General purpose Australian electrical supplies use Delta (Primary)/Star (Secondary) transformers (3 phase) & subsequently have a simpler voltage/phase arrangement compared to that of the USA. Australia does not generally use 2 phase loads, which must not be confused with "split phase" loads or "split phase" transformers.

[rileyp]

There is a simple reason why you can go to bunnings and buy powerpoints.
Its called restriction of trade.
This is illegal in Australia.
The powerpoint by itself is harmless and so is on the shelf.
Its the wannabe sparky thats dangerous!
If powerpoints were to be taken off the shelf everything else would have to be too!
Eg knives petrol long pieces of wood etc.

[silentC]

True, there's no law against buying power points. The legislation covers the installation of them, not the purchase.

It's no different for plumbing fittings - you don't need a license to buy the stuff. You can buy gas fittings, sewer fittings. You can buy a hot water system - even get it delivered to your house. What you can't do is connect it yourself.

[pharmaboy2]

to be fair, if all the light fittings and powerpoints and what not that were sold in australia were all installed by electricians, we'ed need about double the number of sparkies we have now, or a 12 month waiting list and $250 call out fee LOL!

imagine how hard it would be to get a plumber if all the washers in australia had to be replaced by journeyman plumbers - -the joint would grind to a halt

[silentC]

if all the light fittings and powerpoints and what not that were sold in australia were all installed by electricians
I bet not even half of the ones sold places like Bunnies are. The NSW government would be pretty naive to believe that no-one ever does their own wiring. As has been said, if they were concerned about it, they'd crack down on retailers.

It is nuts to think that you need a plumber to change a tap washer. I'm not 100% sure on that - I've never found anything like the Electricity Act that covers plumbing. You're not allowed to contract without a license, but I can't find anything that says you can't do plumbing work on your own home. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but I've yet to see it.

Yes there is already a shortage of sparkys and plumbers. If everyone did it by the book, well I just don't think it would happen because you'd never get a trade to come around to all the little jobs.

[Pete F]

It is nuts to think that you need a plumber to change a tap washer.

Actually I believe you no longer do. I understand there was an amendment to the legislation which allowed home-owners to conduct "minor" maintenance on their own properties or tenants to conduct the same extent of maintenance following permission from the landlord. Minor maintenance would include such things as replacing tap washers, fitting new shower heads and water saving devices. However I could, as usual, be talking out my clacker.

[nev25]

As I said previously


Yeah its a bone of contention with the CHIEF ELECTRICAL INSPECTORS OFFICE here in Vic for a while now
They have been trying to stop Hardware store stocking electrical goods and it will come one day.

The compromise was the sign saying all electrical work must be done by a qualified person

Incidental a bunnings store worker in Queensland got sued last year for giving someone advice on wiring in a power point that they bought from Bunnings.
The customer when home and electrocuted himself and then sued bunnings for giving unqualified advice.


I also don't believe thee is a shortage of tradesmen.

I'm an electrical contractor (admittedly in the country) but my phone doesn't ring everyday and I don't have work everyday.

What there is a shortage of is honest and genuine people that pay there bills and pay them on time.

I currently have 3 customers that Ive got legal proceedings against
The first one is for only $445 they just simply didn't pay and wouldn't answer the phone when I rang to ask for payment.

Why would a trademan take on small Domestic work when they have to spend more time and money chasing payment when they could be working for a builder or big company that pay within a few days of completion.

[silentC]

I also don't believe thee is a shortage of tradesmen.

Why would a trademan take on small Domestic work ...
Perhaps this is why people think there is a shortage. Maybe what we have is a shortage of tradesmen prepared to take on the small jobs.

When I needed a sparky in Sydney for a kitchen rewire, it took me three goes to get someone to even come to look at the job that's after trying the two guys recommended by the kitchen place. The guy who did eventually come couldn't get out quick enough, did a crap job, and wouldn't come back to finish it.

Fortunately, I know a retired sparky down here, so I get him to do my work.

[rileyp]

When I needed a sparky in Sydney for a kitchen rewire, it took me three goes to get someone to even come to look at the job that's after trying the two guys recommended by the kitchen place. The guy who did eventually come couldn't get out quick enough, did a crap job, and wouldn't come back to finish it.
I'm 35 and haven't done a rewire in 10 years and don't plan on doing any in the future either.
The reason is this.Its dirty its messy and crap and no one wants to do it.
How can you compare crawling under someones floor or in there ?????? old roof full of itchy fibreglass or dirty fluffy ???? to working on a new home or on a large site with amenities. Half the people you do a rewire for wouldnt even offer you a glass of water after you have swallowed half their ceiling dust and then you drive home coughing and blowing black ???? out your nose.
The simple answer is you cant and most electricians don't bother with rewires as theres plenty of money to be made elsewhere.

[silentC]

Yeah and they wonder why people get the shytes with them. I reckon they should make it a condition of the license that you have to do a certain number of rewires a year. It's pretty ridiculous that we have these laws preventing people from doing their own wiring, but the attitude of most sparkies is that it's all too hard and they'd rather work on a new site. They should have a board where you can report sparkies and other trades who take your call and say "yeah mate, I can come and have a look next week" and never turn up.

To me it proves that there's a shortage of trades. If you had to fight for the jobs, you wouldn't be so fussy about the ones you take. It's much easier to just sit back and charge what you like for the cream.

[rileyp]

Yeah and they wonder why people get the shytes with them. I reckon they should make it a condition of the license that you have to do a certain number of rewires a year. It's pretty ridiculous that we have these laws preventing people from doing their own wiring, but the attitude of most sparkies is that it's all too hard and they'd rather work on a new site. They should have a board where you can report sparkies and other trades who take your call and say "yeah mate, I can come and have a look next week" and never turn up.

To me it proves that there's a shortage of trades. If you had to fight for the jobs, you wouldn't be so fussy about the ones you take. It's much easier to just sit back and charge what you like for the cream.
1 To make every sparky do a couple of rewires every year is funny.Its like telling the floor manager he has to go back onto the production line for a week because he knows how to do the task.
2 Its a tough gig for us soft sparkies to do rewires but there are sparkies out there that specialise in this field and do very well from it I would assume.I would think that these are the ones to call not the ones that say new homes,extensions etc.. because up front they dont want do your rewire and they will most probably let you down and rip you off in the hope you wont call again! ( good business ethic eh?:rolleyes:)
3 I agree a man that cant hold his word should be publicly identified and fed to the media.
4 There is no doubt there is a shortage of trades.Blame every single person that voted for Jeff Kennet and John Howard and any other liberal rat.
5 To think for a second we can charge whatever we like is a joke.Every industry has its competitors and their prices reflect the quality of service provided except of of course Shonky Joes fligh by night services!

[silentC]

I would think that these are the ones to call not the ones that say new homes,extensions etc..
So how do we tell them apart? Are there sparkys who advertise "we specialise in rewires"? My experience is NONE of them like doing it. As you say, who'd want to crawl around in someone's roof or under their floor, when you can swan in with a cordless drill and a spool of cable and run it through uncovered stud walls?

So this creates a problem, because the NSW government says "no, you cannot touch the wiring on your own home, you must enlist a licensed electrician to do it". But none of the sparkys want those jobs, because it's all to hard and they like the cushy new jobs. So they force us to hire someone, but they don't force anyone to accept the job. Catch 22. Upshot: people do their own, or they don't bother and you end up with old and decrepit wiring, done to prehistoric standards, with extension cords and powerboards everywhere.

What's the average hourly rate for a sparky? I know plumbers get the most, but sparkys have to be up there. Do you think it's value for money, or is it just because there is a shortage - supply and demand? Yes I will rewire your house but it will cost you $80 an hour and good luck finding anyone else willing to do it.

Not blaming sparkys, they're just working within the system. I blame the government.

[rileyp]

Their are sparkies that specialise in rewires and advertise as such.I know they do in Melbourne.I do rewires of commercial/industrial buildings from time to time and they do get every bit as messy as domestic its just easier to do when you can walk away after 2 hours and go and use good soap to wash your hands,tables and chairs to eat at,air conditioned lunch sheds no one cares if the permanent power is of for a week or so as temps are set up and a pay slip every week for your efforts without making phone calls , chasing money booking appointments rebooking running late forgetting something and having to go to wholesaler and stuff around..It takes a lot of skill and effort to be a cool calm and collected 1 or 2 man rewire band that can drive home every night without someone screaming at you I have no ????ing power !!!!!!!!!!!!.
Most sparkies just arent up for it.
If the money is fantastic doing rewires Id be happy to do them for a while but Id need a helper.
This creates a dilema. You need to hire someone to get covered in ???? and pay them a wage and try and protect them somehow from not getting hurt by all that dust and fibreglass and aspestos in old homes.I personally wouldnt want to send anyone in to a place in those conditions and thus I don't.I dont want someone in 15 or 25 years time placing a claim against me because I knew the dangers.
I have a better idea.
If a home is over 30 years old and the wiring is shot make it a mandatory remove all plaster and resheet!
At the same time get rid off all that ???? insulation in the ceiling as well.
Just because its possible for a sparky to rewire an old ???? home doesent mean he should have to.
Its like insisting a car that was run over by a truck should be repaired and fixed because a panel beater knows he can do it. Or a crane repair man should walk the beams to the overhead crane to restart it because he skilled at it and he probably wont fall off.
Realistically a lot of old homes are just health hazards and shouldnt be worked in unless your willing to don the space suit and breathing apparratus.
The government needs to draw a line in the sand and say if the ceiling space is a hell hole no man should work in it!But they dont because there are fools out their willing to do it.

[silentC]

I've got a mate in Sydney who has a ceiling vacuum business. One of his main lines these days is removing that loose insulation stuff that was popular about 10 years ago. I had that stuff in my ceiling in one house in Sydney and my sparky said if I wasn't a mate he would have walked away from the job.

It's obviously up to the licensed contractor to make sure the work environment is safe. The cost is naturally passed on to the customer.

But what's next, are we going to have plumbers refusing to fix sewer lines because they smell a bit and they don't want to touch other people's poo?

[boban]

I
But what's next, are we going to have plumbers refusing to fix sewer lines because they smell a bit and they don't want to touch other people's poo?

It's already happening. BIL's BIL (plumber) only wants to do new work. As he says "I'll be f........d if I am going to play with other people's s...t if I don't have to. This was said while he was replacing the toilets at my MIL's house and he encountered some black stuff in the sewer.

[silentC]

My old man is a plumber and after 40 odd years, he's not afraid of getting his hands dirty. Back when he did his apprenticeship, people had the "try to fix it first" mentality, so clean jobs were a bit of a luxury and an apprentice plumber could expect to have his hand down an S bend most days of the week.

I guess I'd not want to crawl around under someone's house for a living but then I'd not want to stick my finger up someone's bum to check their prostate either yet plenty of doctors do it. Maybe it's something to do with the expectations that are being set these days by apprenticeship training.

[nev25]

This has turned out to be a great post (US versus AU)

I'm an electrical contractor an am more that willing to do a house rewire (yeah there are some that wont)
Providing there is a guarantee of getting paid for it.
I guess there is the bottom line MONEY.

I previously ran a production business in the entertainment industry.
After spending many years putting up with Publicans and night club owners and the meat-heads that stand at the front door wearing a security badge that don't have any idea not to mention Managers Agents and rock-stars.
I got out due to the industry going A**se up and being owed a lot of money.
Went back to my trade as a sparkie which meant me going back to school and getting my Contractors license
And then advertising that I specialize in small jobs
WHAT A MISTAKE
Ive never been Stuffed around so much in my life.

One example a day 3 weeks ago I had around 5 phone callers all wanting work done
I said It would be around 3 weeks to get around to them hey all said no problems whenever you can spare an afternoon.
2 weeks later I left the whole week open to get around to them.
And guess what when I rang them
Every one of them said we have changed our mine or sorry got someone else.
Gee what was I to do for the rest of the week.

Getting back to the money side of things I sit here and am OWED just over $7000 in which some of these are dated back many months.

I guarantee if every one of these people where short of $1 in there pay packet they would yell and scream but I'm expected to go without?

So why wouldn't a tradesman want to work in with a builder doing new houses that was not going to stuff him around and would pay on time.

[silentC]

So why wouldn't a tradesman want to work in with a builder doing new houses that was not going to stuff him around and would pay on time.
Don't take that for granted, either. There has been a history of builders going belly up or disappearing around here, especially on spec houses.

I understand the point of view for sure. I've done some 'orrible dirty jobs myself in the past. Ever tried steam cleaning commercial kitchen canopies? That puts you off fish and chips for life, let me tell you.

The thing is, there used to be an expectation in a trade like plumbing or electrical that there would be a certain amount of crawling around in the dirt. Nowadays, plumbers and sparkies wont even dig their own trenches. Find the cleanest bloke on the site and if it's not the sparky it'll be the plumber!

Getting paid is one of the joys of owning your own business in general. It's not restricted to sparkies doing cash jobs for one-off clients. My old man is still owed something like $40,000 from the days when he ran a sheetmetal works - closed 20 years ago. Do you think he'll ever see it?

[rileyp]

Just so happens Im not scared of ???? either.........I did my apprenticeship at a sewage treatment plant where it smelt no so great in primary treatment ...and also worked on pumping stations where we would have to wash and sometimes replace the well floats/multitrodes and submersible pumps unblock them/rebuild to maintain them.
Thing is Ive done my time working in ?????? smelly holes and crawling thought Joe bloggs crap ceiling space.I am now in a position where I can pick and choose where I work and who I work for so I do. The company I work for does build sewage panels as well and I do install and commishion them from time to time and some of the work we do is crappy but most days its pretty clean apart form the concrete,brick,plaster and tile dust and so I think my job is dirty enough without getting a nosefull of black ???? and fibreglass rash up and down my arms and legs as well.
Most sparkies arent afraid of getting their hands dirty they just dont want to to get into your 60 degree fibreglass hell hole.And lets face it it is.
If you rip the ceilings down the sparky will do a 100% better job and it will take 1/2 the time.
Thing is people think sparkies are super human and just because 40 years ago people did dumb jobs we still should today?
40 years ago it was safe to work in Witternoon to and spray everyone with ddt!

[silentC]

If you rip the ceilings down the sparky will do a 100% better job and it will take 1/2 the timeThat's a big call. Are you saying that a sparky would do a sub-standard job in what he considered to be less than optimal conditions? I'd have assumed everything would be done to code, regardless :wink:

No-one thinks sparkies are super human. Far from it. Put it this way, I wouldn't expect someone to do anything that I'd not be prepared to do myself. I think ripping down ceilings is a bit extreme if all you wanted was a new power point - and that's what I'm talking about here. It's the sort of job people do themselves because it's so hard (apparently) to get a sparky to do it. That's where the gap between regulations and reality occurs.

[rileyp]

Im not saying for 1 power point Im saying for a complete rewire in an old house where all the electrics are just a patchwork quilt of old ???? and repairs.
And perhaps I boasted when I said 100% but of far superior finish.
The lights can be looped at the switch which is far better when you go to change a light fitting! Every sparky knows the only decent light fitting is a standard battern holder or plug base.Unfortunately most light fittings have no facility for more than 3 wires (active neutral and earth).
When a house is rewired and the lights are looped at the light you can end up with up to 12 wires or more at a lame light fitting. The result of this is a junction box in the ceiling or a heap of connectors in your light where the wires will be exposed to the light. Junction boxes do overcome this but require crawling back into to the ceiling and are considered in the industry a patch up item.
A lot are done not to code as is just to hard to sit in someones roof and put on clips.
The corners cut are minor but cut just the same.
Eg not mechanically protectiing a cable where it crosses a structural member that could be stood on.(this would require cutting a battern and nailing/screwing to the ceiling rafters then clippping the offending cable to the side of it!
Sounds like fun dosent it?How many sparkies keep timber in thr back of their van?
Most of the cables are just tucked under the batts which is fine as long as long as the installer understands the cable is installed (totally enclosed in bulk insulation) and derates the cable accordingly.
That means that 1.0mm cable is good for 7 amps!
and 1.5mm 9 amps!
When a house is wired without plaster the cables are clipped to the timber and are considered to be only partially surrounded in bulk insulation and the cable has a higher current carrying capacity.

[Cliff Rogers]

New regulations due in next year ....
I got my set of AS NZS 3000-2007 Wiring Rules this arvo.
$113.40 in .pdf format.

463 pages, I haven't read them yet. :D

[elkangorito]

A long time ago, I was also an electrical contractor but quickly got out of the game. Why? The biggest reason was that people didn't want to pay on time! They seemed to have the idea, "It's only $200...surely he can wait a bit." Well, as we all know, when 10 people owe you $200, it's no longer a small problem...especially if you're a "one man band".

The 2nd biggest reason was that most people seemed to think that I was trying to rip them off when I told them that I couldn't add that new power circuit to the old rubber wiring system because the rest of the wiring had to be updated according to code. What I had to do was rewire the house...& I was happy to do that. What happened? They ended up getting a "cowboy" electrician who would break the rules (& jeopardise his business & peoples lives) & do the bodgy installation.

I remember one job in which I had to design the control cubicles for a couple of freezer rooms, for a local & very successful business (for seafood). To do this, I had to liaise with the fridgy to find out how he wanted things to operate. From this, I was able to design the control circuitry & build the cubicles, which I did by myself. Not only this, I had to run a new set of mains (3 phase) from an existing main board to the freezer rooms & install a distribution board. All of this took me about a month to complete. The bill came to about $7 000.00. After not receiving any payment in a month, I contacted them & was told that the bill was too high (the job was "do & charge") & that they would not be paying. I asked "why?". The answer was, "We've just had some 3 phase outlets installed in our shop & they only cost $700.00."
I couldn't believe this! These people were somehow comparing apples with oranges & no matter what I did, I couldn't get them to see this.
When the dust had settled, I just managed to cover my costs. This was the last job I ever did as a contractor.

Just as a converse comparison, here in Thailand, labour is cheap & therefore the quality of work is crap. An unskilled construction worker, who is required to do tasks ranging from tiling to concreting to welding to whatever you can think of, gets paid about 200 Baht (said "bart") per day. This equates to about AUD$60.00.
Electricians, if you can find a "real" one, are paid up to about 300 Baht per hour (AUD$10.00) although most charge a lot less than this. Most of the "tradesmen", & I use this term loosely, are happy to get any kind of work...& they never complain. The problem is that if they don't like the work, they will stop turning up for work, AFTER having started the job. This does not happen often & is usually the result of a family problem, which is much more important than any job. They usually get a "friend" to continue the work but this "friend" usually knows bugger all about what they are doing.

[rileyp]

Better run back out again and grab aAS3008 for you cable selection:wink:

[Cliff Rogers]

Better run back out again and grab aAS3008 for you cable selection:wink:
Which version?
Has that just been updated too? :?

[nev25]

No-one thinks sparkies are super human.

I disagree to an extent
Ive been called many time to install a GPO of a fan control on a wall after the plaster has been installed.

When I tell the client there is noggins in the wall that I have to somehow get cable though.
They look at me with a blank expression and usually say something like "your the electrician".
My usual reponse is "Yeah an electrician not a magician"



Gee Cliff you are quick AS/NZ 3000-2007 was only released today I believe
I'm going to a info night Wednesday to be told of the new changes

[elkangorito]

I got my set of AS NZS 3000-2007 Wiring Rules this arvo.
$113.40 in .pdf format.

463 pages, I haven't read them yet. :D

Just got my'n too:D

[elkangorito]

I disagree to an extent
Ive been called many time to install a GPO of a fan control on a wall after the plaster has been installed.

When I tell the client there is noggins in the wall that I have to somehow get cable though.
They look at me with a blank expression and usually say something like "your the electrician".
My usual reponse is "Yeah an electrician not a magician"

Yes, I recall this "attitude" on many occasions. At such times, I've informed the "homeowner" that plastering or such like, will need to be done. The usual comment was, "Why?" After telling them "why", nothing much seemed to happen. No phone calls...nothing. I have no idea what they did, if they did do anything. What happens to these people who suddenly realise that a seemingly simple GPO installation will cost them a plasterer as well? Do they decide to not install the GPO or what?

[silentC]

Haven't you heard of extension bits?

[Cliff Rogers]

...Gee Cliff you are quick AS/NZ 3000-2007 was only released today I believe
I'm going to a info night Wednesday to be told of the new changes
I have a subscription service that watchs for updates & tells me as soon as they come out. :2tsup:

[bricks]

Haven't you heard of extension bits?

Just a note, I've found more and more that in newer houses ( 80's onwards) that sparkys and plumbers are running the services horizontally through walls usually between the brick and the stud.:2tsup:( tools), Ps no it's not illegal, it's just lazy.

Plus extension bit's don't work if your on a 2 story house, or if the roof structure is in the way. Even when you can drill the second stud if the wall is insulated or not it can be next to impossible to feed anything through the holes that are made.

Personally I tell customers that "yes I can repair the wall, but i'm not a plasterer and it probably won't be perfect" ( coz it never is, i always seem unhappy with the result).

I'd also like to comment on the attitude of some customers, Personally I've met most of them, the no-payer, the arrogant git, the "i know better than you" etc...etc.. If I get the impression that a customers going to be a PITA then I don't do the work coz it usually cost's me money.

Yes I do dirty jobs ( plumber), no I don't charge the earth, yes I rock up and do a good job.

Another reason that good tradesmen are hard to find is that like myself good tradesman don't advertise at all- word of mouth and a good reputation will keep me in work. Perhaps ask someone else who their tradesman is and you may be pleasantly surprised? I hav'nt advertised for 6 years now.