testing power points

[scubabob]

a "friend of mine" has changed a couple of power points in his house to newer, prettier ones and one of them had different coloured wires and he's not sure if he has put them in correctly.

there is a red wire, presumably active, a green/yellow wire and a bare wire. he has assumed that the bare wire is earth and connected it up to that, the red one to live and the green/yellow to neutral. He hasn't used it yet and isnt game to. is there a way to test if its done properly? :C

[Terrian]

Dick Smith use to sell a tester, plug it in, tells you if you have the wired the right way around, if wrong, what is wrong.

also this appear to be pretty much the same sort of tester (http://www.electusdistribution.com.au/productView.asp?ID=7806&CATID=12&keywords=&SPECIAL=&form=CAT&SUBCATID=112)

[bricks]

In my opinion the plug is wired up incorrectly and is extreamly dangerous. I wouldn't use any switch or plug connected to it anywhere in your house.

Call a sparky and slap your mate.

[scubabob]

i agree bricks, when he spoke to me i suggested he tape it up lest anyone uses it. i have a mate who's a sparky, i'll get him onto the case. THanks guys

[nev25]

Call a sparky and slap your mate.


I agree

Scubabob by what you have said it sounds to me that there has been some illegally wiring done in the past and it had maybe been wire incorrectly.

Definitely get a sparkie in and get him to look at the whole wiring system.

Then again if your mate has done some electrical work himself you may not get a sparkie to touch it.

[another termite]

The green/yellow wire is supposed to be the earth and it is illegal to use it as anything else. Sounds like a case of the home handyman electrician to me and definatly needs to be checked by someone qualified. The neutral should not be bare and in some cases can give just as good a shock as the active. Seek help but be prepared to pay for someone to check it all out very few will only check that and then walk away.

[rrich]

My first thought was the the green w/yellow wire is an earth wire. This was confirmed by a previous post by Another Termite.

Here in the US, bare wires have been used for earthing purposes, however a green insulated wire is the preferred practice. The delema is what is with the bare wire?

What I think has happened is that somebody worked on the power point in the past and managed to remove the insulation from the wire. My guess is that the bare wire is actually the neutral wire and not the earth wire. This may have surrived only because neutral and earth are typically at the same potential. (That is just a fancy way of saying that the neutral and earth circuits (while parallel wires) to the power point are connected to each other at the main or entrance box.)

Based upon what others have said and your laws, you really need a sparky. I suspect that the repair may be very ugly by the time it is done. An entire new cable may have to be run to the power point. The bare wire needs to be spliced to an insulated one using the neutral colour code. The splice MUST be done inside a junction box (JB is a US term) and if there is not enough insulated wire on the bare wire the problem just gets bigger.

[thatirwinfella]

actually, it may not be as big a deal for the sparkie as rrich suggests. running a new cable inside an existing wall is made easier by the fact that you have a draw wire already inside. if i was doing the job.. look for where the cable originates, tie the new to the old and pull. but if there are several points off this, or there is a hidden j-box, rrich is right, it will get ugly.

but yes, you do have a major problem with the bare and yellow/green wires. bare used to be the earth standard, but now green/yellow is.

[another termite]

rrich may have a point on the neutral wire thing if there is some slack in the wall (a rare thing these days with the price of copper) pull it out and cut it off... maybe the neutral (black) insulation has just been pulled off... of course this still needs to be done by a licensed electrician... insert usual disclaimers here..... i have yet to come across a cable that has a green yellow and a bare copper cable, anyone out there seen this?

[scubabob]

Thanks for all your help guys. A sparky friend of mine (real sparky with initials and everything) is coming round to check it out.

[manoftalent]

seriously slap several times the fool that left that wire bare .....and your mate is lucky he has a roof over his head ....

[rrich]

... maybe the neutral (black) insulation has just been pulled off...


Interesting, your colour code for neutral is black. If I looked at the power point I really would have been confused! Confused enough to ring up a sparky.

[Iain]

It used to be red active, black neutral and green earth, that was many moons ago but some aplliances still have the original wiring.

[chrisp]

It used to be red active, black neutral and green earth, that was many moons ago but some aplliances still have the original wiring.

And it still is - on the rear side of the power point:)

To make things really confusing on the "appliance" side of the wiring, I recall there was a very old European(?) standard that used red for the Earth:oo:. I've only ever seen one or two appliance wired internally with red for earth. It often pays to assume nothing and always check - especially with earthed appliances when replacing the plugs.

[Ausyuppy]

Rrich,
The standard here in Oz is as follows;
House internal wiring:
Red = active
Black = neutral
Green/yellow = Earth. (Older houses tend to have a bare earth wire that the sparkies used to put a green sleeve over)

Appliances are usually wired;
brown = active
blue = neutral
Green/yellow = earth.

Completely the opposite as you guys with the white as neutral and the black as active.

Cheers
Steve

[another termite]

[quote=Ausyuppy;611200]Rrich,

Appliances are usually wired;
brown = active
blue = neutral
Green/yellow = earth.

This is the colour code for flexiable cables not for appliances. If they are wired in building wire (TPS) then the red black and green/yellow applies

[Jack E]

This is the colour code for flexiable cables not for appliances. If they are wired in building wire (TPS) then the red black and green/yellow applies
What sort of appliance is wired with TPS:?

Ausyuppy is spot on for the current rules.

Cheers, Jack

[nev25]

IMO This thread Shouldn't exist Its a job for an electrician

Only today I go a call from a lady who told me when she touched her dishwasher and sink at the same time she got a shock

When I got there i measures the voltage between the two and guess what she wasn't imagining it it was 116.5v

Guess why???

Someone has wired a Power point wrong??

Not quite
The earth wire was not connected

I could tell by the way the it installed it wasn't done by a sparkie

[elkangorito]

Oz wiring colours according to the "standard".

[another termite]

What sort of appliance is wired with TPS:?



Some ovens and cooktops are wired direct to TPS

[Phil Spencer]

a "friend of mine" has changed a couple of power points in his house to newer, prettier ones and one of them had different coloured wires and he's not sure if he has put them in correctly.

there is a red wire, presumably active, a green/yellow wire and a bare wire. he has assumed that the bare wire is earth and connected it up to that, the red one to live and the green/yellow to neutral. He hasn't used it yet and isnt game to. is there a way to test if its done properly? :C

Green and yellow are the standard for the EARTH, Think he should get a sparky to look at his wiring. Or he could plug something in and let the smoke come out.

Seriously if you don't know GET SOME ONE WHO DOES KNOW.

[GraemeCook]

Many contributors to this thread have correctly identified the colour codings and suggested that the offending power-point be checked by a licensed sparky.

However, this may not be the only dodgy bit of wiring. There may be other very amateur wiring elsewhere. I think your friend should get the sparky to test all wiring and give a written report that it is safe and complies with standards.

There are very real safety and liability issues here. What if someone gets electrocuted or there is a fire? Will the insurer deny the claim because of illegal wiring? And you know there is at least one instance of illegal wiring!

I think your friend could be in a potentially serious situation.


Graeme

[rrich]

It is nice to see that your tail wiring is as inconsistent as ours.

My Unisaw is connected to a 240 V power point. The power point has three wires, red, black and green, the is black phase A, the red is phase B and green is earth. Well the factory supplied tail wouldn't reach the power point so I went looking for a longer tail. I went up in size but was irritated that I couldn't find a power cable with black, red and green wires. A neighbor who is a sparky told me that it is acceptable to use the white for one of the phases. (Per our NEC, I marked the white wire to indicate that the wire was hot although the NEC doesn't really apply to the tail of an appliance.)

I installed the plug and finally I'm taking apart the electrics of saw to add the new power tail. Much to my surprise I found that the UL approved, manufacturer supplied power tail used black for phase A, white for phase B and green for earth. That really went against the grain!

[Pete F]

Rrich, you're probably aware that the 240v system used in Australia is not a balanced system as used in North America. I once had to point that out to a manufacturer of line filters who was making some rather dubious and somewhat absurd claims. Their reply was, err "we'll look into that". Look into it all you like, it ain't balanced :doh:

[elkangorito]

It is nice to see that your tail wiring is as inconsistent as ours.

My Unisaw is connected to a 240 V power point. The power point has three wires, red, black and green, the is black phase A, the red is phase B and green is earth. Well the factory supplied tail wouldn't reach the power point so I went looking for a longer tail. I went up in size but was irritated that I couldn't find a power cable with black, red and green wires. A neighbor who is a sparky told me that it is acceptable to use the white for one of the phases. (Per our NEC, I marked the white wire to indicate that the wire was hot although the NEC doesn't really apply to the tail of an appliance.)

I installed the plug and finally I'm taking apart the electrics of saw to add the new power tail. Much to my surprise I found that the UL approved, manufacturer supplied power tail used black for phase A, white for phase B and green for earth. That really went against the grain!

Rrich, you are obviously from & living in the USA.
Luckily for you, the new NEC code (2008) will be updated to include such "new" terms as "earthing" as opposed to grounding (2 different things) & I do believe that a wiring colour code of sorts will be implemented. The new colour code will follow IEC requirements, as does the rest of the world currently follows.


Rrich, you're probably aware that the 240v system used in Australia is not a balanced system as used in North America. I once had to point that out to a manufacturer of line filters who was making some rather dubious and somewhat absurd claims. Their reply was, err "we'll look into that". Look into it all you like, it ain't balanced :doh:

Sorry Pete but the US may have a different system to that of Australia but the word "balanced" still means the same thing in both countries.
A "multiphase system" is said to be "balanced" when the line currents have the same magnitude & Power Factor. Therefore, neither system is "balanced" for general consumer load. The only loads that are considered balanced are 3 phase motors & the like.

Australia, on the whole, uses the TT system. The USA uses some variations to different systems, given the state. This greatly complicates the US system. US sparkies have a horrible job discerning between state rules etc.

Australia, on the other hand, is quite simple (excluding SWER supplies);

1] The main supply is 3 phase (120 degrees apart).
2] From a "consumer" supply point of view, each phase is 240 volts with respect to neutral/earth (MEN system).
3] From a "consumer" point of view, phase to phase voltage is 415 volts.
4] Each "consumer" distribution transformer is Delta (primary) & Star (secondary).

The USA primarilary uses 2 phases (240 volts at 180 degrees) to supply high current equipment. 3 phases are also used (120 degrees). "Earthed leg Delta" transformers are common in the US & non-existant in Australia.

[Pete F]

I think we're talking slightly different jargon. Same word, different meaning. The US system is most certainly a "balanced" system where the 2 "phases" (I have subsequently learnt that I am using the term incorrectly) are 180 degrees apart and the centre (or should that be center :q) tapped to provide neutral. Whether the LOAD is balanced or not is a whole different animal. Oh here we go, just found a link that explains it a whole lot better than my crappy attempt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_phase That transformer shown is wired in a balanced configuration (earth is on centre tap). Ironically the same link goes on to discuss load balancing. Ah, here's a better link that covers balanced power as I meant it. http://www.epanorama.net/documents/groundloop/balanced_power.html

My background was not in domestic electrical, so sorry about the confusion.

One problem that comes up with this however is that there is a HUGE difference between the North American 230V system and, say, the Oz 230V single ended system. In Oz we have one live 230V conductor, in North America they have TWO live conductors which between then provide 230V.

Anyway, all a bit technical really

[Jack E]

Some ovens and cooktops are wired direct to TPS
If ovens and cooktops are wired using TPS then they are "hard wired" and are not an "appliance"

This is why non sparkies should not do their own wiring:rolleyes:

Cheers, Jack

[another termite]

If ovens and cooktops are wired using TPS then they are "hard wired" and are not an "appliance"

This is why non sparkies should not do their own wiring:rolleyes:



Prehaps you need to consult the wireing rules again then. AS/NZS 3000:2000 including all 3 ammendmants states in paragraph 1.4.6. APPLIANCE : A consuming device, other than a lamp, in which electricity is converted into heat, motion, or any other form of energy, or is substantially changed in its electrical character.

Further rules state appliances can be fixed(1.4.7), hand-held(1.4.8), portable(1.4.9) or stationary(1.4.10)

As far as i am aware appliances can be either 'hard wired' with TPS (and in the case of an oven or stove an isolating switch provided) or plug and socket useing flex as the lead.

[niall .p]

The bare wire could be the neutral if the insulation has come off .Yes this has happened to me when the wive wanted pretty switchs fitted, the wiring was quite old.