New Deck is created! (pics)

[WA_decker]

Hi there,

Well after many months of planning I am finally getting into my first deck - a 72 sq metre L shaped deck with a hexagonal bay area. Metal Posts (90x90 pole offcuts), H3 MGP10 Pine - 145 x 90 bearers and 90 x 45 joists, with a tongue and groove jarrah decking. The outside floorboards will be the exact same height as the inside ones. there is a small wahhouse between the two that is lower than the internal floor including the external door, so are also raising the door so there are no steps - its just one level from kitchen to outside - nice for me and the parents who aren't handling steps too well anymore.
I will upload some more pics as I go...
1st ones here are me marking up the 60! footings I put down - mostly 1500 gap, but I am putting a 300kg 3.2mtr jarrah slab on top so went with 1000 gap at this point.

Any comments/questions welcome...

[WA_decker]

Here are some more putting the footings in...

20 footings down...40 to go...sheesh!:oo: Is there such a thing as overengineering? Probably, but it will last...:2tsup:

[WA_decker]

Finished all 60 footings! I have got a week off now so I am going to try and spend the whole week on the deck.
Next step was cutting the metal posts to size - it took a whole lot longer than I had imagined.... But they were offcuts I got out of a patio company's offcuts bin for free and with 60 footings with around $8 for a stirrup, I saved around $500!...it took me about two days to cut them all though - depends if you have the time I spose.. at least when you lay the concrete you don't have to be too exact about height, just cut them to size later on...as long as they are level and in a straight line to lay the bearers on later.
First bit of wood was the wall ledger and everything else has to be level with that - heaps of string lines...

[WA_decker]

Also getting a mate in to lift the door up two courses of bricks - that way the inside jarah floorboards meet up perfectly with the outside jarrah decking (floorboards). had to do a bit of bricklaying to raise the lintel and then put back the bricks we took out - took a bit of time but walking from kitchen to outside dinner table with a roast will be nice and easy with no steps to navigate...

[WA_decker]

No every job has to have a plan..and I printed mine out with a project plan, site plan and footings and bearer depths (there were 3 different types).

[WA_decker]

Now for the joists! It is now thursday and thought I would get a lot further on my week off but there you go. bought a nice GMC 10" 2400W Compound Sliding Mitre Saw with Red Eye (not so gimicky as you'd think) and its been great - I am no tradie, so for me this is perfect - $300 including Mitre Stand, so can't go wrong really - its was the main toy I got approval on for the decking - you have to have some perks on doing these things and saving all that money..!

Put the joists on. the main section outside the door has joist hangers on the ends and fasteners on the three bearers between the two hangers - mission to get them all straight - in the end I have planed the three inside bearers so the joists fit flush with the two bearer ends.

Here are some joist pics...its starting to look like there's some structure going on...

[WA_decker]

So its the finish of the week I have had off (with two weekends either side). Had heaps of friends help and have got quite a way along, probably more than I had first thought. In the deep end of the reno now as we can't walk out our back door right now - as you can see from the pics the dog doesn't know where to go!
thought I would post some more art-ie pics of the decking project...

cheers guys. will post some more when I do the next bits. Put in the diagonal to the the main L-shape of the deck this afternoon - mission but got it there and its level...!

Not sure how long putting the actual decking on will take compared to the substructure but it should be good....

[pawnhead]

I can see that our previous posts have been deleted just before I was ready to reply. That’s fair enough.

I was a bit blunt and I suppose I'm not surprised that you took offense.

I'm sorry.

Believe it or not I was trying to help, but I should have done it, sans the sarcasm.

I don't know if there's a lintel flange behind that door frame, or whether you're planning to put one in, but here in the East it's a bit of a no no to leave overhead bricks unsupported. I know it's not going to go anywhere since the roof load is on the adjacent wall, there's solid render on the wall, it's a narrow span, and the door jamb would stop any bricks falling out anyway, but from a technical/inspection point of view there should be a lintel supporting each skin of brickwork, and I'd certainly put them in.

Isn't that a sewer surcharge gully with that waste pipe feeding into it? A plumber here in the East told me that they must be accessible, and you can't build a deck over them. If anything blocks up, then you'll need to get to it to clean it out. A plumber can get an eel around the bend to clean out the whole line from a gully. He told me that they should either be relocated, or extended up, however they also must be a certain distance below your internal floor level so that if the water boards main blocks up, and backs up, the stuff that comes out won't flood your house through your bathroom floor waste. But they also must be a certain distance above a solid deck so that any overflow has a chance to run away. He also told me that it's illegal not to have one installed, for the same reason. The shyte will have nowhere to go but up into your bathroom or laundry. Of course there could be different regulations over there, or you could be on a septic, not even connected to a main, and it could be there just to catch some tap water, but then I can’t see a tap over it. It does need to be charged though, i.e. it needs to have fresh water run through it periodically so the water in the trap doesn't stagnate. This is generally achieved by putting a tap over it. In your case it looks like that waste pipe over it does the job.
I suppose it would be alright to put a removable hatch over it to save relocating it. There's a few plumbers on the forums that you could ask if you posted in the plumbing section.

I don't know if those post columns are engineer designed to carry floor loads, or if they're designed to carry lightweight patio roofs, but I don't think any engineer would design a column supporting a timber beam, without specifying a cap welded to the top to spread the load, or a heavy duty plate that the bearer is bolted to. I also don't think they'd allow a space between a beam and the member that you're bolting to. You should have to tighten the nuts right up so that the surfaces meet where the bolts penetrate them. That way there can be no lateral movement between the two surfaces without shearing the bolt in in half. It looks to me that if you tightened up the nuts on your columns, you'd keep deforming the column until the surfaces met, and you'd end up with a pretty buckled up column.
I realize that you're putting a floor on top, but the outer edge of the outside columns are exposed to weather, and water could travel down the face of the bearer and into the column filling it up. I believe that an engineer would specify a heavier section SHS that was galvanized, with a capping on top. Or he'd specify standard post stirrups.
I believe that it would be a good idea to fill them with concrete, and possibly shove a reo rod down the centre for reinforcement whilst you’re at it. Then the bearers would be better supported, the columns wouldn’t fill with water, you could tighten the bolts up, and it wouldn’t matter if the columns rusted down the track some time. You could pour a reasonably wet mix with a small sized aggregate down the space between the bearer. Pre-bagged mix generally has a small aggregate, but it would be cheaper to buy bulk depending how much you need.

I'm a builder, not an engineer or a plumber, and I've never been to WA, so I could be wrong on all counts. But I try to give the best advice that I can so that people aren't misled into believing that certain building practices are OK, when it actually may cause them grief in the long run.
I can remember trying to help you out when you were in the design process in previous threads, and I like the design that you’ve come up with. I’m sure it will be a great place to kick back and crack open a Coopers Ale.

Again, I'm sorry for offending you, and I hope you'll accept my apologies. My comments were intended to be taken 'tongue in cheek', hence the j/k (just kidding) and the wink ;) at the end, but I suppose that's no excuse.

Cheers
Prawnhead

[oohsam]

Hey pawn head, I read your post as soon as you did, it was a little sarcastic but I didnt see it that bad, You give great advice.

I was thinking the same thing as well with the Metal posts..They look hollow and weak, and they would fill up with water.
I've never actually seen them like that before.

Also in one of the pics the bearer has about 80% cantilever and is then nailed to another bearer which has 20% cantilever...Im not sure if that would be sound structuarly...

Cheers.

[Pulse]

Yep, Using the gang nail to join bearers mid span is not really allowed. I've seen people do it but it is not as strong as the original beam (unless specified as such in a truss for example)

Cheers
Pulse

[silentC]

Just on the posts, if they are at least 1.6mm thick, then it's fine for floor loads. I used 1.6mm Duragal on my decks and the bearers sit directly over the top of the post on a 4mm thick steel plate, which is the way OneSteel recommends. They do however specify a verandah beam connection that involves cutting the post as you have done - but I am not sure if that is suitable for a floor load - I'll leave that for others. The bolts only need to be tight enough to be firm, as the weight is on the cut out top of the post, not the bolts (or it should be). They also recommend sealing the top of the post. With mine, I cut the housing and welded the verandah beam in place, then welded on a cap to seal the post.

I reckon the concrete idea is a good one though. Looks like it might be too late to get in there and weld caps on. You could just use a bit of flash tak. At least that would keep the water out. I'd also paint them with some ormonoid or cold gal. You wont be able to get in there once the decking is on.

[Burnsy]

:2tsup:Just a note on all the rubble under the deck. Many of the termite and building inspectors that prospective buyers contract to look at places are very hot on rubble being present in crawl spaces under houses and decks. I know this does not seem like much of an issue now but when and if you ever sell and you have a prospective buyer tell you they want the stuff removed or try to pull their offer because of of it you will be sorry that you did not remove it now. DAMHIK :doh:

There may be a few things people have pointed out but I think you have done a great job so far, for a first effort:2tsup: Spend a bit of time implementing some of the things that have been suggested and you will be very happy in the long run.

[Dirty Doogie]

Gday WA,

it is starting to take shape.

The only issues that caught my attention (and have been mentioned above) are
1. Clean the rubble out from under the deck
2. Allow access to the gully trap via a lift off/ screw off panel of decking boards.
3. Seal the top of the SHS stumps.

Cheers Doog

[oohsam]

hehe I think we scared him away!

[WA_decker]

Yes back here...didn't get too scared away oohsam; this forum is a little too addictive for that. :U

It has been great to get some constructive feedback and some encouragement about the decking. I have replied to a few of the posts over the last day below...


Yep, Using the gang nail to join bearers mid span is not really allowed. I've seen people do it but it is not as strong as the original beam (unless specified as such in a truss for example)
Cheers
Pulse

Wasn't sure about using gang nails, got some 'advice' from the hardware place I bought the timber and was planning on cutting the bearers at the post joins, but the guy there believed that putting two gang nails either side made that area more stronger than other parts of the timber...a little suspect but you can only go on what you read and hear and he seemed kosher. As for that section the bearer bowed at the end causing about a 10mm upturn at the end. I am planning on planing the last 1-2 metres to get it back to shape.


:2tsup:Just a note on all the rubble under the deck. Many of the termite and building inspectors that prospective buyers contract to look at places are very hot on rubble being present in crawl spaces under houses and decks.

There may be a few things people have pointed out but I think you have done a great job so far, for a first effort:2tsup: Spend a bit of time implementing some of the things that have been suggested and you will be very happy in the long run.

I am sure I will be very happy with the decking...its really starting to take shape. As for the building inspector/rubble thing, I used them for the footings to make sure the concrete was well above the ground. Then thought that for the most part the decking (hopefully) shouldn't be coming up for a while and I plan to stay in this house very long term (20+ yrs) well that's the plan..we are happy where we are and bought before house prices went crazy in Perth so we can actually afford to have a low mortgage and a life...strange hey?!


I can see that our previous posts have been deleted just before I was ready to reply. That’s fair enough.


no probs. thanks for the follow up feedback...:;



I don't know if there's a lintel flange behind that door frame, or whether you're planning to put one in, but here in the East it's a bit of a no no to leave overhead bricks unsupported.

Isn't that a sewer surcharge gully with that waste pipe feeding into it? A plumber here in the East told me that they must be accessible, and you can't build a deck over them. If anything blocks up, then you'll need to get to it to clean it out.

I can remember trying to help you out when you were in the design process in previous threads, and I like the design that you’ve come up with. I’m sure it will be a great place to kick back and crack open a Coopers Ale.


Lintel
When I removed the two courses of bricks it had a lintel on the external double brick wall and two 4mm reo mortared into the lowest brick course. The main load of the internal wall is only holding up enother 4 courses of bricks and I think the frame of the door was holding up the internal bricks. What the pic doesn't show is the massive lintel I raised up on the other side that is there. I may put some re-inforcement on the internal brick wall.

Sewer gully
I am planning on getting a plumber out to double check all is kosher with the plumbing and how it is set up. I have always planned to lay the decking at that point in a way so I can easily lift up that section to provide easy access for plumbing works as I could see it being a potential issue later on - like a trap that termite guys use for inspection but a little nicer.

Water in the metal posts
Yes I realised that this was going to be an issue early on. I plan to either use concrete (mostly runny mortar so I can get it in there) or use a gap filler or no more gaps silicone type equivalent, concrete being the cheapest though I am going for that at the mo.

Beer
Yes, on my week off last week I managed to brew and bottle a nice batch of Coopers home brew so the upcoming deck party will be well worth it:2tsup:



Just on the posts, if they are at least 1.6mm thick, then it's fine for floor loads. I used 1.6mm Duragal on my decks and the bearers sit directly over the top of the post on a 4mm thick steel plate, which is the way OneSteel recommends.


The colourbond SHS I am using is 3mm thick and sprayed inside the piping. I laid the concrete first. waited for it to cure a little then inserted the posts which allowed for a fair amount of the concrete to be well up inside the post.
After recessing the posts for the bearers I also used cold galv spray on every part of the exposed metal. The metal has seemded to be extremely tough and looks like it should last quite a while.

I am also painting the external bearers and joists as they will be the only ones that will get any direct rain spray and want to extend their life - using Solver Exterior Duraguard.

With the flooring it is tongue and groove Jarrah and yes I have read every post that has the above words mentioned and can see the benefit of real decking as opposed to flooring, but prefer the look, (and have already bought the decking) so am planning on ripping the tongue out of the first boards 500mm from the edge which is up to where the rain spray comes in (my boards run parallel to the house) and then every 5th board or so to allow for expansion. To make sure that the cupping and expansion/contraction is the same I also plan to precoat the underneath of the jarrah (and maybe the tongue and groove) with one coat of the Flood Deck n Spa. Then when I have finished I will give three coats of the stuff on top. That should make it look nice and last a while. It is new looking jarrah (not green, just no nail holes) so I am thinking that Natural finish should be OK, although read there is a new jarrah finish out for Deck n Spa, but wan't to see the natural look of the wood...but heard stains in the acrylic coat may reduce UV damage. we'll see...

Hope that mammoth post isn't too long for most to read. Thanks for the advice it has helped a lot.

I will post more pics and progress in the next week or so. Should be finished the bearers and joists in the next week and onto the flooring soon after.

Cheers,

WA_Decker.

[WA_decker]

With the flooring it is tongue and groove Jarrah and yes I have read every post that has the above words mentioned and can see the benefit of real decking as opposed to flooring, but prefer the look, (and have already bought the decking) so am planning on ripping the tongue out of the first boards 500mm from the edge which is up to where the rain spray comes in (my boards run parallel to the house) and then every 5th board or so to allow for expansion. To make sure that the cupping and expansion/contraction is the same I also plan to precoat the underneath of the jarrah (and maybe the tongue and groove) with one coat of the Flood Deck n Spa. Then when I have finished I will give three coats of the stuff on top. That should make it look nice and last a while. It is new looking jarrah (not green, just no nail holes) so I am thinking that Natural finish should be OK, although read there is a new jarrah finish out for Deck n Spa, but wan't to see the natural look of the wood...but heard stains in the acrylic coat may reduce UV damage. we'll see...


WA_Decker.

Just wanted to see if anyone had anymore advice on Flood's Spa and Deck?
I have read these posts so far..

Deck n Spa - new jarrah colour
http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=58015&highlight=deck+spa

Spa n Deck samples and great advice by utemad and jimj
http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=49270&page=2

which have been great. What I wanted to know though is that I am using new jarrah wood (fairly new I'd say, doesn't feel green though). And am going to do the top with Spa and deck, using a Napisan equivalent to take out the tanins and then buy Diggers Oxalic Acid powder from bunnings ($25) which should cut back the top layer and open up the pores of the wood for coating (thanks Jimj for that advice - heaps cheaper than the spa and deck prep and powerlift stuff ($46 and $50 repectively from Bunnings).

The thing that I want to do is this - I wanted to seal the underside of the boards before I lay them - that way if both sides are sealed then they will have more similar moisture absorbtion, and protection from the elements - and in turn I am hoping to limit cupping, etc in a few years time. So what would be an ok substitence to put on the underside that is cost effective as it won't be seem.

I rang Flood (Deck n Spa company) and they recommended using the prep, powerlift and deck and spa on the bottom as well - as a good company would. I just need something that will sit there and last.

Any ideas guys?

WA_Decker.

[Spelunx]

I rang Flood the other day, to confirm they have a Jarrah colour in their Deck'n'spa product.

They do indeed, however they can't send you a free sample, which is a bit of a bummer, but they did offer to finish some samples of my own, though. All I need to do is send them a sample of the wood I used, and they will put the requested finish on, then send it back.

I am planning to do this next week, they reckon it is about a fortnight turn-around.