Evap Cooling. Please Help!

[oohsam]

Hey all.
My wife and I have decided to get evap cooling in our home b4 summer hits as its BOILING in our house.

I have recived about 9 quotes and they are all round the same price ($4500).
My problem is I dont know what to get. Every installer slags off the other brands and claims they do it better and the brouchers are biased (as you'd expect) and I can find no websites that compare the units.

I research everything I do to a fine T but Im having alot of trouble. Im very confused.
The brands we are looking at

breezair (i feel they are overpriced)
cool breeze (my favourite)
Braemar (dont really know much)
Bonaire (not too sure about this)

If you have one of these units or know anything about the systems could you please help point me in the right direction. The guy who is selling me the cool breeze came to my home, offered great service, explained everything and the system comes with all the bells and whistles, and was the only installer who listened to me, hence why i like that system the best so far. They also have a 10 year warranty, and to me, that says something about the company if they are preared to back themselves for 10 years.

Im very confused and would like some advice. Thanks guys/gals.
Sam.

[Honorary Bloke]

I think I'd go with the one seeming to offer best service. Evap cooling is not rocket science--basically a fan blowing across water. So . . . robust fan, non-rusting case, dependable float device. Looks like the service aspect might be the most important. :)

[thatirwinfella]

make sure they have a service/repair technician available in your area, not just an installation guy. it's no good having a 10 year warranty and a whizzbang evap. cooler, when during the 6 hottest weeks of summer and you're waiting for a bloke to repair it under warranty.

do you realise that evap coolers use heap of water and must periodically dump it to prevent disease? i'd recommend as a green offset, investigating a way of using the water with in the rest of your house, flushing toilet, watering garden etc. it shouldn't be too difficult to return the water to your garden, particulalry if your gutter is connected to a water tank... the cooler generally just drains into the gutter.

[Border boy]

Hi Oosham,
I did a lot of research into swampy systems last year. I was very impressed with the Breezair units & like yourself was quoted about $4500 to instal. The Breezair units have a drum type fan which I believe to be a fair bit quieter than a normal fan. At the time I could'nt afford that much & bought a second hand Brivis unit on ebay. This had a normal type fan & really it is not that loud, especially on 40 dregree days.I put new bearings in the motor, new float valve & cleaned it up. Ordered all the ducting & vents & insalled it myself for under $2000. Dunno if I would do that again as I did the install mid summer - bloody hot. Works great though!!
I'm with 'Bloke re service etc.If you feel that the cool air guy seemed to offer a good deal, then I'd go with him. There's not much to a swampy & not a lot to go wrong with them. Most have water dump features to ensure water purity but I think that it is a bit of a paranoid overkill. Just chuck a small bit of domestos or household bleach in the water reservoir every now & then & all will be good - drain & rinse at the end of summer & all is well.
Stay cool!!

[oohsam]

Geez thanks heaps fellas.
I have a water tank that is hooked up to the toilets. The evap system is being connected close to it and the water will be routed to it to fill it up during summer.

I have been doing alot of research and have found that the most popular and reliable units are the Brivis units. They offer great warranty and they are locally made. THey are the same price also. I will be getting a brivis unit. I have heard about the drum fans,but the noise does not really bother me, I just wanna be cool.

I'll make sure to keep the domestos handy : )

[Tools]

I have recived about 9 quotes and they are all round the same price ($4500).




9 quotes??????? And people wonder why tradies charge like they do, when at least 8 of these guys have absolutely wasted their time.

Tools

[Honorary Bloke]

9 quotes??????? And people wonder why tradies charge like they do, when at least 8 of these guys have absolutely wasted their time.

Tools

Well, how would you have it? Most likely didn't go on site. Marketing (including quoting) is a cost of doing business. If he gets only two, at least one wasted his time. But if he got bad quotes from some, they were wasting HIS time.

A good tradie would have asked "what is most important to you?" and gone on from there. If you just mouth a price, then you deserve to have your time wasted. :)

[Tools]

Two or three quotes is enough. As Oosham said, all of the quotes were much the same, so what was he trying to achieve? At best these guys have a one in nine chance of winning the work.Do you think quoter number number nine would have bothered if he was told that there were already eight other prices? No doubt he would prefer to spend his time on quoting work he actually has a good chance of winning.

Tools

[oohsam]

sorry Tools, but thats a croc.

I see what you're saying, but the traides i dealt with were absolutley usless and unreliable. Firslty, in order to get my quotes, I called each one, then Told them I would fax through a floor plan.
2 of them got back to me within a week. When I did follow up calls, they lost my paperwork and asked for it to be refaxed, the I had to call again after 3 days to get a price, which some of them lost yet again.

Only one person came out to see me,none of them bothered to call to discuss what I wanted, they just threw out a model number and a price. I had to do all the research myself. Back in th day, ppl took the time to speak to you and advise you what to do, now all they want is your money an.; Some of them even told me i better hurry up and book or else i'll be watiing up to 2 months when others said they can start right away so i wanted to find out who could do the work ina resasonable time.

The one guy who came out to my house was amazing, and I would go with him however I do not really like the unit. Most companies only sell 1 brand and I wanted a comparison between brands, and what they were offering.

It is the tradies respnsonability to provide quotes so the consumer can have a fair choice, if the tradie doesnt like that, then maybe the should be in another business. Shopping around for a good price and brand is normal, I dont see why you're so cut up about it.

When u buy a new plasma tv, you go to a few places get prices and try and get the best deal, this is no different. Some could argue you're wasting the salespersons time at the tv store...I say its you're right to waste whatever time you need to as a consumer.

sorry for the babble, I just think you're views are a little obscure in this industry.

[juan]

3 is not enough!!!

I got 7 quotes for a sewer main installation. Prices ranged from $2400 to $8450. I went with the lowest and was very happy. It was the 6th quote I received. The lowest of the first 3 was $4950.

I rest my case.

Cheers

[MrFixIt]

Hi

I bought the materials form the supplier and did my own :U

I saved on the installation cost, about $2800.

All up for 8 outlets including a VERY awkward second storey outlet - it required an external duct, made to my specifications.

It cost me $3000 plus $600 for the insulated external duct. It's a Coolbreeze unit.

[China]

oohsam I had a bonaire evap in my old house for 13 years never had a problem with,it I had the lastest model bonaire installed in the house I'm in now, ran it all last sumer with no probs (well you would expect that)

[oohsam]

Thanks China.
The problem I have, is trusting a $4500 investment in my home with a brand that I know will work. With cars, you can test drive them, with TV's you can see them work b4 you take it home...with air con...I really have to take a guess. Im giong by the 2 ppl I know that have aircon have brivis and they are great. I dont doubt that the other brands will be good...but I just dont konw anything other than the brivis..its all I've expereienced.

It would be great if they had a show room, where one room was 35 degrees, then you walk into a room for each brand of aircon and it shows you how much it cools..but then agian it will be different in your home...hehe..there is just no winning.

I will get the brivis installed in the next week or 2 and let you all know how it is..
Im pretty excited bout this...our house is a sauna in summer...even warm spring days are hot.

[Jacksin]

I had ducted evaporative in a previous life with wife #1 and found it awfully humid, especially here in Adelaide and would never have another.

They work on cross airflow through windows which is bloody useless when a hot northerly, on north facing windows, backs up the flow. We had a Breezeair with a sensor for when the water got salty (remembering we were using Murray water at the time) and it dumped around 70litres every 40mins.

I have recently spent $7.5K on a reverse cycle ducted inverter system and couldnt be happier, until I get the electricity bill. But then its only money isnt it?

[oohsam]

hehehe..yeah its only money Jack.
Well. After doing more research, I found that the Brivis system would not actually be suitable for my home. As I have 3m ceilings and they system would struggle to keep our house cool. The most powerful system on the market at the moment is the Bonaire system...which is the same price as the brivis..so we'll be getting that..

I could find no other system that had the power of the bonnaire, and although I heard bonaire is a budget system, It seems to have everything the other brands have..
Its booked in for next week....My wife and I have decided, that if the evap cooling is good but not GREAT, we'll put a split system in the family room and hang out there during the stinking hot days..otherwise the evap should last, We'll see how we go this summer..somethin tells me its gonna be a scorcher.

[woodbe]

We've had both evap systems and reverse cycle, and there are pros and cons of each.

Evap works better the dryer the climate. If you look up the wet bulb depression for typical summer days in your area, you will get an idea of the best that can be expected temperature wise. From memory, in Adelaide's summer, we are looking at around 7 degrees, so a 30 degree day will have 23 degrees air coming out the outlet, 40 degrees will have 33 etc.

If you want your house to be like a fridge, evap won't suit you on the hotter days. On cooler days like mid-twenties, it will probably get too cold!

When sizing the system, the installer should plan based on a formula of the volume of the air in the house and how fast that air changes to achieve a comfortable environment. The more humidity, the greater the number of changes required to make it comfortable. Which is why there is not much evap cooling in Townsville, because you cannot stand up in a tornado :)

Anyway, we put evap cooling in an old stone home we had with 3m ceilings and it worked brilliantly. We sold it, but it's still in use and it's been there for about 15 years. evap is also pretty good for eliminating smells and odors from the house. It just blows them next door :D If you run a duct to the workshop, it could be good for blowing the dust away before it gets to your lungs too.

woodbe.

[oohsam]

Oh, Im not saying we cant have evap coz of teh 3m cielings, just need a more powerfull unit.

Just goin off topic a little..did you know this was your 666 post...hmm....el diablo...talking about the heat and what not..im a little sus..

seriously though, My parents have evap, and it does a really good job, make syou much more comfortable in the home. I know it wont be ideal but it will cool me down.

[woodbe]

Ok, got to get off 666 fast... :)

There is a lot right with evap, it's just that some people have a fixed idea of what air conditioning means, and evap is not it. On the other hand, evap moistens the air, is far more environmentally friendly, and doesn't require you to shut all the windows and worry about the cool air escaping. (like your fridge)

It's basically a very good, simple and economical idea.

woodbe.

[oohsam]

Thats why they call Evap "cooling" and refreigated is "air conditioning"

[SilentButDeadly]

We've an ancient Bonaire on our place that has become something like Grandad's axe...

With regard to the various brands - http://www.climatetechnologies.com.au/ own Bonaire and Celair while Breezair, Coolair and Braemar are all from the same company, www.seely.com.au (http://www.seely.com.au)
....they just have different levels of sophistication.

The main thing to remember with evap.....they need to be able to move air through you house so they either have a roof vent or you need to leave a window/door open AND they typically can lower the ambient temperature by AT MOST ten degrees...so on a low 40's day you are still experiencing low to mid 30's in the house.

Oh and our mulberry and plum trees get the drainage water. One day it'll go into our greywater system.

[rrich]

When I lived in Phoenix, Arizona we had a swamp (evap) cooler for about 18 months. When the humidity was below 15% it worked so well that we would turn it on and off because the house was getting too cool.

When the humidity was 15% to 25% the cooling was not so good but mostly comfortable.

When the humidity was 25% or above it was better to endure the heat and open the windows.

Based upon your quote of $4500, it seems that a refrigeration unit might be a better investment. I recently had a furnace and old refrigeration unit replaced and the cost was only $4800. The evaperation (cooling) coil was installed on the top of the new forced air furnace. (Similar configuration to the old.) If you already have forced air heating, the duct work to install refrigeration is almost nil.

[oohsam]

I dont know what forced air is, but are you saying you can put a refrigiated unit in place of teh evap unit?

[Greg Q]

Forced Air=ducted.

In North America it is common to use the heating ducts to carry cooled air from the central air conditioner. Ducts are installed in the floors, not the ceilings, but this doesn't seem to be an issue.

(Forced air systems in North America also incorporate a disposable filter in the cold air return to cut down on the dust, a feature notable for its absence here. I make my own with felt over a small frame inserted in the return duct.)

I too think evaporative is a waste of time, and possibly subject to future restrictions (if the water situation worsens?). Melbourne summers seem to be getting more humid...our evaporative does ok only some days...the others are made even more horrible for the added humidity and little if any cooling.

[coastie]

I second the argument about evaps being useless when temp is hovering
around 30-40 mark.House sat my daughters house in Perth last January,Australia Day was 46degrees! Just couldn't cool down, evap was working flat out,just wasn't making any progress.Eventually went down to the river that night to watch fireworks and cool down with a coldie!What a day! Never ben so hot in my life!:no:

[coastie]

I second the argument about evaps being useless when temp.is hovering
around 30-40 mark.House sat my daughters house in Perth last January whilst she was in NZ,Australia Day was 46degrees! Just couldn't cool down, evap was working flat out,just wasn't making any progress.Eventually went down to the river that night to watch fireworks and cool down with a coldie!What a day! Never been so hot in my life!:no:

[rrich]

I too think evaporative is a waste of time, and possibly subject to future restrictions (if the water situation worsens?).


The evap coolers that I used in Phoenix had a 150mm deep tray to catch the un-evaporated water from the pads, a small electric pump and a toilet cistern fill valve. Wheh the evap cooler was running, the pump would move the water to the top of the pads and the cistern fill valve would add water to the tray as needed. The water source was the city supply. Water usage with this system was insignificant.

The heating system (Forced Air) was typically natural gas fired. A blower would move the air through a filter, (disposable fiberglass) up through the furnace heat exchanger and then into the ducts for distribution through the house. There is usually room on the top of the furnace for the A/C cooling coils so that the system could be used as either a heater or an A/C system.

[woodbe]

The evap coolers that I used in Phoenix had a 150mm deep tray to catch the un-evaporated water from the pads, a small electric pump and a toilet cistern fill valve. Wheh the evap cooler was running, the pump would move the water to the top of the pads and the cistern fill valve would add water to the tray as needed. The water source was the city supply. Water usage with this system was insignificant.

Yes, that's pretty standard, and it's the way they work over here mostly too. There should be an adjustable bleed to waste on the system as well, because you are evaporating water and concentrating the salts etc in the water supply - if you don't do this, you land up with something approaching brine in the tank.. It's adjustable because some areas have higher concentrations of dissolved salts than others. Over here in Adelaide, we probably have to bleed off as much or more water than we evaporate...

woodbe.

[wood duck 2]

Apparently there is some new evaporative cooler technology available in the USA.There is no agent here in Oz but it might be worth checking out this website.www.coolerado.com
cheers.

[MelbMan]

I'm interested in putting a new Bonaire in a house up in the Mallee....about 200km south of Mildura. Very hot up there in summer. Wonder how evap will go? The house has one refrig a/c unit in one of the windows in the lounge.

Shop around for evaps. I was quoted nearly $3500 for a unit plus installation. Have found I can buy the unit for nearly half that.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Don't forget that where a split unit can be installed in under an hour, a swampy will take a pair of blokes all day to install and the larger unit's dropper boxes can mean a rafter may need to be cut out, which means the addition of underpurlins & struts or purlin props. Truss rooves can be even worse... it used to me off to the max when the client said "but the salesman looked in the ceiling cavity and said it'd fit no problems!" Yeah, sure... no problems for him - it was the installer's headache. :~

(Sorry. I think someone slipped a soap-box under me while I wasn't looking. :B)

Also, when you buy a swampy seperately, very rarely does the price include the ductwork and fixtures, flashing, wiring or plumbing.

I'm not saying that this justifies some $1500+ price difference but it does account for a pretty big chunk of it.

[bob w]

Forced Air=ducted.



(Forced air systems in North America also incorporate a disposable filter in the cold air return to cut down on the dust, a feature notable for its absence here. I make my own with felt over a small frame inserted in the return duct.)


All the return air vents I have come across have a light sponge filter in them which most people forget to clean and then they wonder why it gets noisy.
Bob

[Jacksin]

All the return air vents I have come across have a light sponge filter in them which most people forget to clean and then they wonder why it gets noisy.
Bob

True Bob. That was the only problem with my Fujitsu inverter R/C a/c installed in Sept. Fujitsu have changed from the sponge filter over to a carbon very fine-flywire type of filter and the little man in the factory thought it would be a good idea to fit them both.

It sounded like an aeroplane when turned on, something the installers should have heard. Luckily I never used it that month until the serviceman called to remove the sponge once I complained about the noise. He has well over 100 units to fix!

But comparing evap to refrig is no contest, I have lived with both. Its going to be around 37+deg here today and I can drop my inside temp to around 21deg in about 15 mins of medium fan speed. Why would I want a unit that can ONLY drop the outside temp by 10deg? Plus my unit heats too.

[MelbMan]

Hi Jack never having owned a house with evap cooling I was under the impression that evap is cheaper to run than refrig. You see heaps of houses in country area with evaps sitting on the roof. Guess I assumed this was because they work better than refrig.

Our Melb house has about a 30yr old York split system. The a/c still works ok. It's a big house and the ducting runs for miles. It's better than no cooling at all but on a hot day when the outside bricks heat up you might get 10 degrees max below the outside temp.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Evap's are much cheaper to run but, as Jack said, won't drop the temp anywhere near as much as a 'frig unit. Worse, evap's are also of limited use on muggy days... they can make it even muggier or cause condensation on the walls if not operated correctly.

However, I prefer evap's for a couple of reasons:

- I'm always popping in/out of the house and on a real stinker of a day walking out into temp's that are more than 10° hotter than inside the house really drains me by the end of the day. (Perhaps if I was a lounge-lizard who only stuck my head out the door to see whether the sun had set or not :wink: it'd be a different story...)

- When SWMBO fills the house with smoke (don't ask :no:) it only takes a minute to flush the whole house. :roll:

[MelbMan]

Trying to work out what you'd classify as muggy when expressed as relative humidity..

For example in the following link relative humidity is expressed as RH

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/dwo/200612/html/IDCJDW3090.200612.shtml

In Dec 2006 the lowest humidity was 11%, the highest 65%, the mean 45%
In Jan 2007 22% 92% 60%
In Feb 2007 21% 89% 59%
In Mar 2007 31% 98% 66%
In Apr 2007 30% 98% 64%
In May 2007 66& 97% 85%

Thanks guys. I can't conceptualize what these figures translate to feeling wise

[woodbe]

Hi.

On a warm day (mid 30's) a relative humidity of around 40% feels moist. Above that people start feeling uncomfortable. Above 60% feels uncomfortably wet. From your chart, there looks to be only the 22nd with high humidity (62%), but the temperature is mid twenties.

There is an interesting page on evap coolers on the breezair site:
http://www.breezaircooler.com/c_more_evap.html

woodbe.

[MelbMan]

Woodbe thanks for your reply and putting it partly into context. It always harder to conceptualize something rather than experience it

[woodbe]

Another thing I've been thinking about since we had an evap cooler is that the water quality does matter. In Adelaide with our cooler running, there was an unmistakable Adelaide water smell in the house when you came inside. Knowing what I know now, i'd have a little filtration and carbon canister filter on the cooler if your water is anything but pure.

woodbe.