Removing Excess Stain

[RobinAdams]

Hi, my girlfriend had given me the task of refinishing some Teak furniture that we own. Unfortunately, I didn't do any research before hand and have realized that after successfully stripping the furniture, I have applied the stain wrong. A month ago my girlfriend stained our closet door by applying the stain with a foam brush in multiple coats to achieve the colour we wanted. The results were pretty good. So, I followed the same procedure with the Teak furniture and after several coats of stain I finally read the instructions on the can and realized that the stain needs to be removed by a cloth 15 min. after it is applied. I have now removed most of the stain by reapplying more stain and then removing it with a cloth. The only problem is that the first couple of coats of stain was allowed to dry over a couple of days and there are portions that are hard to remove. What remains is patches of a thick, gummy substance (obviously the large amounts of stain that were applied). Does any one have some advice on how to remove this easily ? Any products ? I've been able to remove a lot by a plastic scraper and rubbing with a cloth, but it's taking forever.

[MacS]

Robin,

Do you know what type of stain it is?

Is it a dye or a pigment, an oil, alcohol, water. stain.

Look at the label, and see what it tells you to do for "clean up."In most cases, that might be the right solvent to use. If not, let us know.

[astrid]

I agree with macS,
sounds like an oil based stain
macs suggestion should get rid of the gummy stuff but the problem with teak is the open grain, the stain sinks into the pores and you are going to have to scrub with steel wool fineish grade , to even it up.
I am a great believer that timber is the colour that nature intended.
you can gently coax it a lighter or darker tone to what it is but radical colour chnges seldom look natural.
good luck
astrid

[MacS]

Astrid,

Don't take this personal, but I disagree, I am very familar with factory and custom finishes.

If you take almost every bed or dining room suite of furntiure, and just look at all the woods that make up each piece of furniture, then compare each of the pieces for color, no one color will look the same on all those woods.

Today, they use colored toners, depending on the final color they want to acheive they select a color for the toner which is called the base color, this is not opaque, it is transparent, there is very little color in the toner, this will unify all the different woods with one color. Then the toner is sealed to kept that color from shifting, as other colored meduims are added like stains, glazes, and shading stains to create a finish were the woods grains and other marking as still visable when the final coats are applied.

Almost, just about all furniture factories use this technique, in fact, they are known as "factory finishes."

I will post a photo later, showing a factory finish using 4 different woods, once the entire suite is finished and assembled, its hard to tell its a factory finish, because of the uniformity of color on all the piece, on the 4 samples the pieces are small and close together. I need to go find the photo, but I shall return.

[astrid]

macs you are speaking a different language and dont seem to understand
I dont like factory finishes, i dont like artificial tints, i dont like polyerothane
i am an antique restorer.

astrid

[MacS]

macs you are speaking a different language and dont seem to understand
I dont like factory finishes, i dont like artificial tints, i dont like polyerothane
i am an antique restorer.

astrid

Astrid,

My postings are not just for you, there maybe others that may find my postings interesting, and may want to give them a try.

Because, you are a antique restorer, don't be close minded, you certainly don't know it all. At least your smart enough to come to this forum when your stuck, and lately you have admited you have been stuck.

Conservators, have begun realizing they can learn a lot from fine finisher, there has been dialogue for years here with them, they are using epoxy putty to do certain repairs now, which was taboo not to long ago. They also have accepted finger coloring and padding with color. They have loosened "there way, or no way."

Keep an open mind, there is to much to learn in a life time about this business, thinking your only going to do things only your way, will only hurt you in the long run.

I wish you well, this is my last post to you.

[astrid]

I am not an expert finisher, I would love to do boule work and be able to repair parquetry this is a skill learned over many years .
however love of old timber and skill to take it where it wants to go is what makes my work a joy.
a 300 yo table has its own charicter that one dosent mess with.

astrid

[RobinAdams]

Sorry for the long wait on my reply. I removed the excess stain and restained with a darker colour. It still didn't look the way that I wanted. So I think I am going to re strip the whole thing and sand it down again and start over. Now I need advice on how to get the colour that I want. I have some pics to show you what I have to work with and what I want to achieve.

[MacS]

Post them up.

[RobinAdams]

first pic shows kinda what I would like the finish to look like and also what the original wood looks like bare.

[RobinAdams]

This pic shows the multiple coats of stain. It looks pretty decent to me in some spots but you can see areas that I am not happy with

[RobinAdams]

This last pic is of the new stain that I put on after removing the old excess stain and staining a second coat over the first one. Looks good, but nowhere near dark enough for my liking

[MacS]

Are you looking for a dark red mahogany, or a brown mahogany?

Its difficult to tell from the photos.

Maybe, you could check some color charts where you buy your supplies.

[RobinAdams]

The first two pics are with Red Mahogany, the last pic I did with Ebony....not really the result I was looking for.

[RobinAdams]

Here's a pic of the closet door that I had originally mentioned. This was stained with Red Mahogany and it was down with multiple coats without whiping anything off. The door is pine. I'd like to achieve something similar to this colour.

[RobinAdams]

oops....forgot the pic

[MacS]

Robin,

The Red Mahogany stain looks like a pigmented stain, not a dye.

Do they have a Dark Red Mahogany stain that should give you the color. If not ask if they have a black paste colorants to add in the staim, maybe, the ebony color you used, can be added into the Red Mahogany stain.

Make up some color samples, be sure you "clear coat" over the stain so you can see the true final color.

[astrid]

robin,
as i mentioned in my first post, teak is difficult to stain it dosnt take up another colour well because its hard and naturally oily
pine on the other hand sucks it up .
you are not going to get the same penitration with the same product.
so what kind of stain did you use on the doors.
I stained some teak tables recently and they came up well.
i used an oil based stain.
astrid

[RobinAdams]

I started using the same stain on the teak as I did on the doors. The reason the doors came up like they did is that we never whiped the stain off, we just kept applying layers until it was dark enough......appparently not the proper way to stain things. The stain is an oil based one. When I started staining the teak in that fashion, it looked good, but there were too many spots that were darker and some lighter. It was hard to keep consistent, that's where the problem lies I think. I need to go dark but have a consistent colour which is hard when you are just applying one layer of stain over the other and not whiping it off. It seems more like I'm painting the wood as opposed to staining.

[MacS]

The stain needs to be wiped off, or it will look look like your painting if you apply color on color.

When you wiped the stain off, you said, it did not look good in some places, was the pieces stripped throughly clean , if there is any residue left that maybe why the stain is not adhering all over.

Robin, you could use this oil stain as "glaze," you would have to let the stain dry, and then coat over the stain, and then allow it to dry, and then you can apply the second stain and this time you wipe the stain on and then "brush the stain out " keep brushing until you see no more brush lines, then allow it too dry, and then recoat again.

[astrid]

dave are you sure this is teak?
looks more like mountain ash to me. teak ususlly has a more even grain.
this stuff is hard to colour.
I know this is flustraiting to you but, in my experience is it is one of the hardest timbers to change radically
last time i did one dark, i think i usd an oil base, let it dry 2-3 days, wiped off, added another coat wiped off again then put a tinted danish oil on fast.
let it dry 2 days, buff back and then apply another coat.
unfortunatly all timber aint the same to stain.

astrid

[astrid]

sorry, i meant robin:U
astrid

[MacS]

Robin,

There is no "wood in this world" that should take that many days to color Dark Red Mahogany.

If someone has to take that long, there is something wrong, do you think that manufacturers or refinishers can spend 5 days just coloring their wood.

This might be OK for a private woodworker or hobbyist with time on their hands, or those conservators who work on priceless antiques, or if you worked for people where money was not important.

If your woods was stripped "clean" and there was absolutey no residue on the woods, and you did not sand the woods too smooth so it would not accept the stain, there is no reason that you could not color it a "dark mahogany" color in either mixing the dyes, or using "pigmented stains, toners, glazes, or shading stains."

You probably have heard that you should not use pigments, because they "paint the wood" ? That is just not true, pigments do not paint the woods, its the "finishers who paint the woods." Pigments are just as valuable as dyes in finishing, in fact in my personal opinion, they are more valuable, because you can do more finishing techniques with pigments then you can with dyes.

Robin, you need to rethink your finishing plans, I would reccomend that you consider using the pigmented coloring mediums listed above, and make up some samples.

Think twice, and finish once.

Good Luck

[astrid]

it is not at all unusual to spend 5 days colouing wood if you want a good scratch resistant finish.
ask any professional restorer.
surface tints and glazes are just that. the surface first sratch of a dark glaze on a light timber will stare at you forever, whereas a scratch on pre stained timber will be a lot less obtrusive.
as an australian I have worked a lot with mountain ash and know this to be true.

astrid

[astrid]

it also maybe that you left some of the old finish behind
some of these pieces used a grain filler that is really hard to spot,
ive been stuck with this myself.
when you put the stain on were there patches where the stain "skimmed" over
if this is the case you have to sand again:C
astrid

[MacS]

"If your woods was stripped "clean" and there was absolutey no residue on the woods, and you did not sand the woods too smooth so it would not accept the stain, there is no reason that you could not color it a "dark mahogany" color in either mixing the dyes, or using "pigmented stains, toners, glazes, or shading stains."

Astrid,

I already mentioned about the woods not being cleaned, as the cause of his problem, why did you mention it like it was your idea?

Sometimes, stripping is not needed, as there are ways around it, in other cases it must be stripped. In some other cases, making the pieces presentable is all that they expect and want.

[astrid]

macs
I was not going to reply to your post, as i said before its horses for courses.
But you dont seem to realise, that far from australian finishers being behind the times and desperatly in need of your american know how,more and more of us and our clients are turning to less environmentaly and less carcenogenic and less physically hazzardous materials than in the 1980's
I wish you well, but i think the time of harsh chemical solutions and unnatural colours is over.
this however is just my and my clients opinion and you are free to express yours
but not to me
astrid

[Lignum]

I have better things to do then answer your messages, you have a lot to learn about finishing, and why don't you stop hiding behind the "restorer" title. It don't impress me or a lot of others who come to this forum.

Not me. I enjoy astrids contributions to the forum. Keep up the good advice astrid:)

[astrid]

Macs
denegrating another profession is not accepable on this forum.
if you wont understand that there is a place for traditional and modern work
and both have there uses and merits and appropriate applications then i think you should not be posting here
astrid

[astrid]

thanks for the support
i am not a great french polisher and have pointed this out many times, but i do what i do really well and dont need this.

astrid

[RETIRED]

Keep it nice kiddies.

[ubeaut]

Finishing and restoration both demand a high degree of skill and knowledge .

However, one demands excellence, cunning, extreme skill, a knowledge of all things timber, the ability to recreate the original finish, look, feel and patina of a piece without devaluing it.

The other is called finishing and sadly in these modern times depends more on what can be squirted out of a gun than anything else.

Personally I think restoring is a far greater challenge than finishing, as it requires you to call on all of your skills especially if it is to be done well. I have seen brilliant work ruined by finishers. Even had some of my own ruined by so called finishers who had no idea how to go about putting a fine finish onto really expensive work.

There is a massive difference between finishing here in Australia and finishing in the US or Europe. Here we mainly have to make do with what little we have at our disposal. Compared to what is available in the US and Europe we really do have a limited arsenal to work with. This is where cunning and know how come into play.

Whatever anyones feelings are I feel it's time to put an end to this mine's better than yours slanging matches. There is no definitive or completely correct way of finishing and anyone who isn't prepared to listen to others and learn will never grow as a finisher or restorer.

The final word:
Just because someone doesn't agree with your methods doesn't make them wrong, just different.... Maybe even innovative.

Neil :~

[rsser]

Your book Neil mentions the complexity of colouring timber and that so many skills in doing it have passed with their owners.

I've restored some Australian red cedar pieces and agree that restoration is way more complicated than finishing new work. You can strip a piece of the more or less opaque tinted shellac and can find all sorts of different colours in the wood. So there was a reason for trying to make it look like rosewood.

[MacS]

I don't think many of you really understand what "fine finishing" is all about.

Fine finishing not only can do all kinds of restorations.

Fine finishing takes in all kinds of other finishes, thee include factory finishes, fancy faux finishes, gold and silver gilding, patinated chemical finishes, crackle and aging finishes, textured finishes, decorative finishes. I could go on and on what fine finishers have to know.

I will end by saying, that fine finishers can do every thing that restorers can do, but all restorers cannot do all the things that fine finishers can do.

Cheers,

MacS

[Cruzi]

Guys please, retire to respective corners and agree to disagree.

Macs, you raise valid points but do them from a commercial/industrial/production point of veiw, whereas astrid also raises valid points but from a far more practical level for the occasional finisher/restorer.

Both sides are valid and both work just not practical for all applications.

Keep it nice please, really do learn from every viewpoint.

[rsser]

Well I'm glad MacS is here to teach us :rolleyes:

[Neil]

Mac - Contrary to popular belief, we actually do understand FINE Finishing, although we rarely get to see much of it here.

You seem to have somehow missed the point here. This isn't about fine finishing it's about Robin trying to get a bit of colour and finish onto a cupboard. It has nothing what so ever to do with Fine Finishing if it did I'm sure it would have been sent to a Fine Finisher and paid a lot of money to get it done.

It should also have nothing to do with personal attacks on other members of the forums. Just because someone elses ways aren't your ways doesn't make them wrong nor should they be attacked for it. Not everyone who does a bit of restoration or finishing in their back yard aspires to be the next George Franks. Some do it for fun and relaxation some because they can't afford to have it done for them and for some it's therapy.

Only a very minute number will aspire to fine finishing and get into scumbling, marbling, graining, gilding or any of the other faux or fine finishes. Most won't even have a go at French polishing.

Here most people just want to get a good finish with what they have at hand and what they have at hand may not be much. As I said before what's available here and what's available in the US and Europe are completely different.

In many ways we are miles ahead of the rest of the world with our finishes as we are with many other things. It's just that they don't let you know in the US just how much better we really are for fear you'll all defect to Australia (not that we wouldn't welcome you with open arms).

You have expertise and are well known for your articles on finishing of which I have on occasions helped you out. I'm sure that a number of people have benefited from your expertise in this forum over the last few weeks since your return. However I think it's either time you lightened up a bit or took that break you were talking about.

Cheers - Neil

Thread definitely :closed1: this time!

Robin I hope you got what you wanted from this. If not please try again and hopefully all will stick to the subject at hand.