Ouside powerpoint

[ger]

Hi
I have a twin powerpoint outside the house
Is it OK if I purchase a powerpoint with 4 outlets to
replace this can it be wired to twin
powerpoint cable
will it overload if all 4 outletts are used


Thank you

[elkangorito]

Hi
I have a twin powerpoint outside the house.
1] Is it OK if I purchase a powerpoint with 4 outlets to replace this & can it be wired to a twin powerpoint cable?
2] Will it overload if all 4 outlets are used?

Thank you.

Excuse me but I've cleaned up your first post a bit so that it is more understandable.

In answer to your questions;

1] Yes.
2] This depends upon what you plug into this 4 gang outlet. The cable should be 2.5 square millimetres & the associated circuit breaker should be no bigger than 20 Amps. This means that you can load the 4 gang GPO to 20 Amps but be aware that each outlet is rated at 10 Amps (2 400 Watts).

Attention mods - why does this forum engine use the American spell checker? Can it be changed to "real" English?

[Tools]

Is the existing gpo a weatherproof unit? If so, how will the new one be weatherproofed?

[outback]

OH YEH BABY! a Spelling nazi who uses red, AND an electrical DIY in one thread. Does it get any better than this. :cool:

Yes it does.


Elektradude then has a shot at Neil and the Admin.



I've gotta duck out and get the popcorn ready for this.

[elkangorito]

OH YEAH BABY! A spelling Nazi who uses red AND an electrical DIY {insert appropriate noun here}<insert appropriate="" noun="" here=""></insert> in one thread. Does it get any better than this? :cool:

Yes it does.


Elektradude then has a shot at Neil and the Admin.



I've gotta duck out and get the popcorn ready for this.

I wasn't having a "shot" at anyone...I asked 2 questions.

[NCArcher]

Hi
I have a twin powerpoint outside the house
Is it OK if I purchase a powerpoint with 4 outlets to
replace this can it be wired to twin
powerpoint cable
will it overload if all 4 outletts are used


Thank you

The registered electrician who does the job will be able to answer all your questions but basically yes you can replace a twin outlet with a four point outlet. Being an outside point you must consider the weather protection rating of the new outlet.

[nev25]

The registered electrician who does the job will be able to answer all your questions but basically yes you can replace a twin outlet with a four point outlet. Being an outside point you must consider the weather protection rating of the new outlet.

The REC will also do a Maximum, Demand Calculation to determine if it can be done

[silentC]

It is the combination of volts and Amps that kill you...not just the Amps.

:D

[silentC]

Your advice is wrong. The answer to 1] is no, you cannot as it is illegal to do your own wiring in this country, but a licensed electrician can do it for you.

[elkangorito]

Your advice is wrong. The answer to 1] is no, you cannot as it is illegal to do your own wiring in this country, but a licensed electrician can do it for you.

Since when has this practice been illegal? Please explain. Of course, doing your own wiring may void your home insurance in some circumstances.

The answer given to the OPs point 1] was about whether it can or cannot be done & not who can do it.

[silentC]

Since when has this practice been illegal? Please explain.
Well, in NSW, since the Electricity (Consumer Safety) Act 2004 made it so. There is a similar act in Vic I believe.


Is it OK if I purchase a powerpoint with 4 outlets to replace
If you want to be pedantic, there's nothing to stop him buying it, but my reading of that question implied that he intends to do it himself.

[elkangorito]

Below are excerpts form the HOME BUILDING ACT 1989 & the ELECTRICITY (CONSUMER SAFETY) ACT 2004.

The ELECTRICITY (CONSUMER SAFETY) ACT 2004 can be downloaded from here;

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/esa2004309.txt

and the HOME BUILDING ACT 1989 can be downloaded from here;

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/hba1989128.txt


It appears that doing electrical work in your own residence has been conditionally illegal since 1989.






HOME BUILDING ACT 1989 - SECT 14
Unqualified electrical wiring work
14 Unqualified electrical wiring work

(1) An individual must not do any electrical wiring work (whether or not it is also residential building work), except:

(a) as a qualified supervisor (being the holder of an endorsed contractor licence, or a supervisor certificate, authorising its holder to do that work), or

(b) as the holder of a tradesperson certificate authorising its holder to do that work under supervision, but only if the work is done under the supervision and in accordance with the directions, if any, of such a qualified supervisor.

Maximum penalty: 1,000 penalty units in the case of a corporation and 200 penalty units in any other case.

(2) Despite subsection (1), an individual may do electrical wiring work even though the individual is not such a qualified supervisor or holder, but only if such a qualified supervisor:

(a) is present at all times where the work is being done by the individual, and

(b) is available to be consulted by, and to give directions relating to how the work is to be done to, the individual.

(3) A qualified supervisor who is supervising any electrical wiring work being done by an individual as referred to in subsection (1) (b) must:

(a) give directions that are adequate to enable the work to be done correctly by the individual performing it, and

(b) personally ensure that the work is correctly done.

Maximum penalty: 1,000 penalty units in the case of a corporation and 200 penalty units in any other case.

(4) A qualified supervisor who is supervising any electrical wiring work being done by an individual as referred to in subsection (2) must:

(a) give directions that are adequate to enable the work to be done correctly by the individual performing it (which, unless the qualified supervisor considers it unnecessary, must include directions requiring the individual to advise in detail on progress with the work), and

(b) be present when the work is being done and be available to be consulted by, and to give directions relating to how the work is to be done to, the individual, and

(c) personally ensure that the work is correctly done.

Maximum penalty: 1,000 penalty units in the case of a corporation and 200 penalty units in any other case.

(5) This section applies to an individual acting in the course of his or her employment by the Crown.





ELECTRICITY (CONSUMER SAFETY) ACT 2004 - SECT 30
Inspection of electrical installations
30 Inspection of electrical installations

(cf 1946 No 13, s 25 (1) and (4); 1987 No 68, s 19 (4))

(1) An authorised officer may enter any place at any reasonable time for the purpose of inspecting any electrical installation in the place.

(2) An authorised officer may require:

(a) any person who claims to be an authorised electrician to produce for inspection by the authorised officer, within such time as the authorised officer specifies, the person’s licence or other authority to do electrical wiring work, or

(b) any person who appears to the authorised officer to be doing electrical wiring work to satisfy the authorised officer, within such time as the authorised officer specifies, that the person is not prohibited under the Home Building Act 1989 from doing that electrical wiring work.

(3) If the Director-General believes on reasonable grounds that there are in any place documents evidencing conduct in connection with an electrical installation in contravention of this Act or the regulations, an authorised officer may, with the written authority of the Director-General, enter the place, inspect any documents and make copies of them or take extracts from them.

(4) An authorised officer may not exercise the authorised officer’s functions under this section in relation to a part of any premises being used for residential purposes except:

(a) with the permission of the occupier of that part of the premises, or

(b) under the authority conferred by a search warrant issued under this Act.

Note: Section 42 enables authorised officers to obtain search warrants to search residential premises in certain circumstances.

[silentC]

Good, so I take it you're satisfied that advising someone to put in their own powerpoint is irresponsible and the best advice to give them is to enlist the services of a licensed electrician?

:)

[elkangorito]

Good, so I take it you're satisfied that advising someone to put in their own powerpoint is irresponsible and the best advice to give them is to enlist the services of a licensed electrician?

:)

I fully agree but it sort of makes this site a little redundant with regard to electrical DIY work.:sad3:

[silentC]

Well, I don't know. I guess there are plenty of questions that can be asked and answered without actually encouraging anyone to do something that's not legal. There are also others here who believe that it's OK to tell people how to wire things up etc. - I'm not one of them but they're allowed their opinion. So people should ask away, and then make up their own minds based on the information provided. If that information includes a) how to do it and b) the fact that it's illegal, then the person has all they need to decide what to do.

[elkangorito]

I actually think that it would be a good idea if the mods "sticky" either;

1] the weblinks to the HOME BUILDING ACT 1989 & the ELECTRICITY (CONSUMER SAFETY) ACT 2004, or

2] Relevant excerpts from both Acts.

[Sideshow]

Quote:
It appears that doing electrical work in your own residence has been conditionally illegal since 1989.


Probably longer - I think the legislation codified the already existing position.

However, what needs to be understood are two things:

1. The effect of the specific sections of the Home Building Act 1989 quoted, are that any work done by an unqualified individual must be supervised at all times by someone qualified who must personally ensure the work is done correctly. This means you as an unqualified person can do whatever electrical work you like as long as an authorised (read licensed or qualified etc) person signs off on the work. That person becomes legally responsible for your work.

2. Section 30 (2)(b) of the Electricity (Consumer Safety) Act 2004 places the onus on the person carrying out the work to prove that they fall within the parameters established by the Home Building Act 1989. This means refer to my point above. In effect this is a reversal of the usual standard of proof - ie you need to prove your innocence, the prosecutors (electrical authority) do not need to prove that you aren't qualified or licensed.

In short, and speaking generally, no person may undertake wiring work (even in their own home) without a legal obligation to submit paperwork to the relevant authorities stating the nature of the work performed and that relevant factors have been taken into consideration. That person is legally accountable for the work performed.

The test: If you can't submit the paperwork yourself, you need to find someone who can and will. Finding a person willing to sign off on your work without having supervised it at all stages would, to my mind, be rare. Not only would they be legally responsible, they would have broken the law by signing a document which specifically states they supervised or carried out the work themselves.

That's the legal position as I understand it to be. I'm hoping that I haven't missspelt anything.

[silentC]

This means you as an unqualified person can do whatever electrical work you like as long as an authorised (read licensed or qualified etc) person signs off on the work.
My reading of it goes a step further than that. I believe the legislation requires the qualified person to actually be on site at all times during the work (see 4b in the Home Building Act quoted above), so it's not enough to just have someone sign it off, they need to be there with you while you do it.

I also believe that not just any licensed sparky can supervise the work, I think they would require a contractor's license or supervisor's certificate, which is separate to a trade certification. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

[Sideshow]

My reading of it goes a step further than that. I believe the legislation requires the qualified person to actually be on site at all times during the work (see 4b in the Home Building Act quoted above), so it's not enough to just have someone sign it off, they need to be there with you while you do it.

I also believe that not just any licensed sparky can supervise the work, I think they would require a contractor's license or supervisor's certificate, which is separate to a trade certification. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.


Sorry, didn't make myself very clear. My point was that in signing off on the work you are making a legal statement to the effect that you did supervise the work - as you point out.

Think along the lines of the need to supervise apprentices - the degree of supervision is to the extent that you are 100% certain that the work is done legally and in accordance with all Standards and regulations because that is what you are signing for. Also, supervision extends to more than mere visibility iof the work carried out in some instances, such as testing the tension of connections.

As far as I'm aware any licensed fully-qualified sparky can supervise the work. In ACT, NSW, Tas, WA and Qld any licensed/qualified sparky can supervise definitely, never had anything to do with the other states, so can't be definitive.

A sparky may in somes cases work for a contractor, and the paperwork would have both names in that case, and both bear the burden of legal responsibility. The sparky would supervise, but both their licences are at risk.

[nev25]

Sideshow is pretty much correct
Bearing in mind The Electrical Safety Act Part 3 Section 35(3) States

(3) A Registered Electrical Contractor Must Not employ
a person in the carrying out of any electrical
installation work unless the person is-

(a)a licensed electrical worker of a
particular class related to the
contractors Business;or

(b)an apprentice within the means of
Vocational Education and Training act
1990 in a trade that involves carrying out
Electrical installation work of a class related
to contractors business

I recently discussed this with an electrical inspector
His comment was "gone are the days that I can get my son to help pull cable during school holidays Its now Illegal"

Also be aware that someone in Melbourne late last year got fined $12000
(Yes Twelve Thousand Dollars) for doing some Electrical work unlicensed

Energy Safe Victoria has made it very clear that they will not tolerate unlicensed people DIY.
SO BE WARNED

[elkangorito]

To think that this thread started with a 4 gang GPO.:roll:

To my understanding, a "qualified supervisor" is a tradesman who is "licensed". For example, my original "A" grade electricians license was issued by the Energy Authority of New South Wales (it's a pink paper card & on the front it says, "Unless suspended or cancelled this license shall remain in force during the lifetime of the holder"). Due to privatisation, this license was replaced by the "Qualified Supervisor Certificate", issued by the Department of Fair Trading (NSW). The original electricians license did not require any payment to keep, however, the "Qualified Supervisor Certificate" does require payment to maintain currency. "Currency" simply means paying an annual fee to the Department of Fair Trading. Being involved in engineering (& other things), I haven't paid the fee for ages so therefore, I'm not a "paid up" Qualified Supervisor.

It is therefore important to realise that non-currency of license means;

1] the "tradesman" does not have an electrical license, which essentially means that they have not passed the requirements for domestic wiring (amongst other things).

2] the "tradesman" has not paid his annual fees.

3] the tradesman has been penalised for faulty work.

In any case, all a licensed electrician has to do is keep paying the annual fee (about $200 last time I looked) to maintain currency as a "Qualified Supervisor".

[ger]

Hi guys thanks for replys
I have an external powerpoint (Doudle)
I need an extra plug as I am installing a swimming pool for
pumps chlorinator etc
Is there a weatherproof extension powerpoint
then that I can plug in to work??
I thought no electrician will come out just
to replace 1 powerpoint.

What will be the cost (labour)

Than k you

[elkangorito]

The below link is to Clipsal. The pics might give you some idea what you want.

http://updates.clipsal.com/ClipsalOnline/ThumbView.aspx?searchMode=group&level=3&code=118&ref=&skip=0&first=30

The below link is to a downloadable brochure.

http://updates.clipsal.com/ClipsalOnline/Brochure.aspx?BrochureID=700&ref=

[ger]

Thank you elkangorito (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/member.php?u=19070)
Currently I have a Clipsal
WSCF227/2/15
2 outlets.
need one with 4 outlets

[elkangorito]

Thank you elkangorito (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/member.php?u=19070)
Currently I have a Clipsal
WSCF227/2/15
2 outlets.
need one with 4 outlets

I've not seen or heard of a weatherproof 4 gang GPO. Maybe one of the other sparks might know if such a thing is available?

IF worse comes to worst, I guess you have 3 options;

1] Buy 2 x weatherproof "2 gang" GPO's & join them together with PVC conduit.

2] Buy a "4 gang" non-weatherproof GPO & mount it in a weatherproof enclosure.

3] Install the non-weatherproof GPO in a location where it won't be affected by weather (as per AS/NZS 3000:2000).

[juan]

Hey Kanga

It's the combination of volts and Amps that kill you...not just the Amps.

I feel confident the milliamps is what blows you away. If you get enough current flowing through the nervous system you die regardless of the voltage. You could use your argument to say it is a combination of impedance, volts and amps not amps alone. But I still say it is the little electron sukkers that kill you.

[nev25]

Hey GER where in Melbourne are you

You have said that the Power Points are for pool appliances I assume that it is to be mounted somewhere near a pool
There are regulations regarding distances from pool etc

[felixe]

Well, I have an outside powerpoint:D
I wanted 4 outlets, so I called my sparkie and he told me he could put in 2x2 weatherproof outlets (one on each side of the post) he was most accomodating - he even let me dig the trenches!:wink::doh:

[snowyskiesau]

Well, I have an outside powerpoint:D
I wanted 4 outlets, so I called my sparkie and he told me he could put in 2x2 weatherproof outlets (one on each side of the post) he was most accomodating - he even let me dig the trenches!:wink::doh:

I had a plumber like that! He let me dig the trenches for the new pipes and was quite happy to point out my mistakes i.e dig deeper.
Got to love helpful tradespeople :U

[ger]

Hey GER where in Melbourne are you

You have said that the Power Points are for pool appliances I assume that it is to be mounted somewhere near a pool
There are regulations regarding distances from pool etc


The powerpoint is currently on the side of the house
pool will be in backyard about 7 metres away

Thanks

[elkangorito]

Below are excerpts form the HOME BUILDING ACT 1989 & the ELECTRICITY (CONSUMER SAFETY) ACT 2004.

The ELECTRICITY (CONSUMER SAFETY) ACT 2004 can be downloaded from here;

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/esa2004309.txt

and the HOME BUILDING ACT 1989 can be downloaded from here;

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/hba1989128.txt


It appears that doing electrical work in your own residence has been conditionally illegal since 1989.

Neil,
Since this thread has now "died down", do you think that the above 2 weblinks are worthwhile pinning?