Kids Behaviours, who is to blame?

[Burnsy]

I have had a hell of a last few days and in addition to the fact that I need to vent I thought it might be interesting to get some opinions. As many would know I am a primary teacher. In the last two days I have been acting admin and have had the need to suspend 4 kids yesterday and 4 again today (different kids). On both days I have been kicked, hit and sworn at with language that would make most of you blush. This is in addition to other instances on the two days that have included having chairs thrown at me, attempts at desks thrown at me, water squirted in my face, spat on and having to physically restrain kids. Lets just say that today ended with the police in attendance, and that was from another student related issue that was not mentioned above:oo:.

The consensus usually is that the behaviours are generally learnt at home and many of these kids come from difficult environments. The behaviours are so ingrained that despite the kids knowing they are supported at school and that you genuinely care for them, they will turn in an instant. But realistically where does the buck stop, who can fix it?

Personally, I really feel for the kids who take on board the support they get at my school and work to better themselves with so much negative distraction within the classroom. I believe that the current politically correct agender that insists that all students be allowed to attend regular schools is stealing knowledge from many kids who want to learn at school. I think that most of society is unaware of the current goings on within the school system in many low demographic areas and if they new the truth, change would be demanded.

Ahhhh, that feels better, rant over, now to go and arrange the interschool team:)

[Gingermick]

I blame my parents generation. They let us get away with too much and didn't flog us regularly enough just to stop any future, unforeseen mischief.
My 11 year old is no trouble, as his mum mostly raised him from 3-7 with me being absent for extended periods.
My 5 and 3 year olds are absolute menaces. We are trying desparately and have had some success with 5yr old, but little with bubby girl.
Actually, 11yr old just won a gold and bronze medal for interschool chess competition

[TermiMonster]

I feel for you. I was a pretty bad kid for my teachers, and they were allowed use corporal punishment.
Keep up the good work,
TM

[Gingermick]

i had dusters thrown at me

[Burnsy]

My 11 year old is no trouble, as his mum mostly raised him from 3-7 with me being absent for extended periods.
My 5 and 3 year olds are absolute menaces. We are trying desparately and have had some success with 5yr old, but little with bubby girl.
Actually, 11yr old just won a gold and bronze medal for interschool chess competition

Funny that you say that as I have seen that despite good intentions by many parents the kids are so far off the rails it isn't funny. I think alot of that comes from what they watch on televison, has anyone ever actually sat down and thought about what messages are being sent out to the kids by the crap they watch these days. I must say I didn't until I started teaching and I must say that it makes me cringe when I see some of what is on the Simpsons as know I will see it put in to practice the very next day by those in my class who watched it.

[ss_11000]

you dont work in an ED unit do you?:(

[Burnsy]

you dont work in an ED unit do you?:(
No, a regular primary school, such is my rant, we need ed units, these kids in regular schools just disrupts others and stops them from learning. The teachers who were around before the ed units here were disbanded said that it was a much better system, but now we are all equal and inclusive:rolleyes:

[Cruzi]

My Mother gave up teaching because of the kids today.

Its a real problem, they expect you to more or less raise the children for them but also jump heavily on the teachers for applying any discipline.

Bring back the cane!

The cane although deemed barbaric by many is a far less serious consequence than hospital, jail or death, which are the only lmiits placed on modern children.

[bitingmidge]

I have seen that despite good intentions by many parents the kids are so far off the rails it isn't funny.

On the weekend a mate explained it all to me. It's just that kids these days are so smart, much smarter than we were, or our kids for that matter.

They understand logic and reasoning at two and three, so if they misbehave parents just explain why they should stop...... :rolleyes:

Our parents, (and we) weren't blessed with such intelligence in our offspring, with the result that a well placed thump seemed to make a point in a way that our dumb kids who weren't so advanced could understand.

They understood there was a consequence for their actions, and if they continued to do something, had to decide if it was worth paying the price.

That's all that's needed.

P
:p

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

There's the old adage: "spare the rod, spoil the child."

Most modern parents disagree. I s'pose they consider it "just coincidence" that they're the ones with problem kids... :rolleyes:

[Big Shed]

Funny that you say that as I have seen that despite good intentions by many parents the kids are so far off the rails it isn't funny.



Isn't the road to hell paved with good intentions?:rolleyes:

[Rossluck]

I absolutely don't blame the kids. Follow their behaviour home and you'll find a pair of feral parents (or maybe one).

What chance do these children have: they're genetically tied to, and socially influenced by, out of control nutcase parents.

Kids from normal, decent families don't behave like those described by Burnsy, because we won't let them, will we? If one of my kids abused a teacher they'd return home to weeks of fire and brimstone.

[les88]

Who is to blame the government that stop smacking your children:(:(. My mother would lock me and my brother in a room till our father came tell him to belt us and that is what happened took his belt off and belted us we wet our selfs waiting for the punishment. No tea off to bed an hour later our mum would bring in our tea saying don't tell your dad. If that happened today what would be the outcome.
les

[Burnsy]

Kids from normal, decent families don't behave like those described by Burnsy, because we won't let them, will we? If one of my kids abused a teacher they'd return home to weeks of fire and brimstone.

I thought this was pretty standard as it was how I was raised, but it is definitely not where I am.

Some quotes from parents: "he gets board easily, you need to entertain him"
"I don't really care if he can't read or write, as long as he does not walk down the street and stab someone"

[ss_11000]

I absolutely don't blame the kids..

why not, the parents can only do so much and most parents are careful with their kids while they are young. most of the time, kids are either spastic:wink: or just showing off. most will know better but just want to muck up cos its fun and the other kids will think more of them the further they push the boundries. with the teachers to scared to hand out suitable punishments, the kids think they can get away with it, so the idea of doing more troublesome things evolve and things just go from there.

i blame me for my behaviour, cos i know better ( most of the time:D )so i blame kids for their behaviour. kids need to take responsibility for their actions and take the consequences. i will mostly take a consequence unless it is unfair or i am right and i can prove it ( which most of the time i can prove it...sometimes i can even prove it when i am wrong:cool: )

but having said that, things can influence the way kids act, like tv, games, and others. i cant really ellaborate on my thoughts cos half of it is probably bulldust and its to hard to put into words anyone but me would understand.

so basically, you cant IMHO just not blame the kids at all, they do have something to do with their lives and they mostly have a choice. they have a choice not to throw the chair at the teacher, they have a choice not to watch those shows, they have a choice not to hang around that gang etc

cheers

ps. i sound like an idiot dont I:doh:

[ss_11000]

"I don't really care if he can't read or write, as long as he does not walk down the street and stab someone"
i like that one:cool:

[Jedo_03]

(1) just today
10 yr old g'daughter came over - very sad and upset
seems one of her friends at school told her that her mother had punched and kicked her... always doing it, she said...
g'daughter told her mother (who is a pre-school teacher - mandatory reporter and all that...) who advised g'daughter to tell prinicipal (she went with her) on the grounds that better to stop it now rather than let it escalate further...
Right or wrong... what worries me is that my g'daughter could end up in flames by telling the principal...
(2) Personally - I suffered many beatings and thrashings as a kid... maybe worse was the psychological trauma of being reminded by my mother on an almost daily basis, that I was a bastard - in the true sense of the word...
I left home as soon as I was able to support myself at 15 (the navy)...
Worst "crime" I ever committed was riding an unreg m'bike on a public road (Yeah - a BSA bantam) - fine 10 shillings... I was 12... Never forget my mother wailing in the juvenile court corridoor how she'd "raised me on the straight and narrow all my life... etc etc..."
I never went to her funeral
No regrets
Jedo

[Burnsy]

ps. i sound like an idiot dont I:doh:

No not at all, especially if you are 15.

Funny thing, just turned on the TV, Today Tonight just ran a piece on this very thing:2tsup:

[bitingmidge]

"I don't really care if he can't read or write, as long as he does not walk down the street and stab someone"

And as long as he doesn't get to vote!

P
:((

[Carry Pine]

There are a few gems written above, so I'll try not to repeat them. I work in a primary school that does have an ED unit. Despite this, there are feral kids galore and as a teacher of 35+ years I've noticed some big changes. It's no use talking about the old days and being able to belt them into shape but you do need consequences and you need to be backed up when you hand them out.
Someone said about kids being logical - they're not. They think they know how to argue but they don't. They mirror Bart Simpson and his antics and politicians who don't give a straight answer, and attempt at all times to be 'cool'.
I went to the local shopping mall after a meeting and when i was coming out of the mall at 5:45 2 of my 11 year old girls were walking in to 'hang out' for a while- no adult around. One boy who gets in heaps of trouble and was hanging out for the Touch football gala day, trashed his record when a visiting Rugby league development officer gave the class some drills. At one stage this boy was 'caught' and he didn't like it. He called out ' You can XXXXXXX my XXXXXXXXX'. The behavior is bad I know but I feel sorry for the kid that he just doesn't know how to play a game, win or lose. His philosophy is : do it and maybe you will need to say sorry afterwards.
On a more positive note: I confronted my class with the idea that our school never seems to win anything any more. I said that i don't blame the kids personally but there must be a reason. There was general consensus that teams need to focus on a particular event and train over a longer time. One kid said ' I think it's our attitude. Some kids think they know everything even though they just keep losing. Those kids need a bit of help'. And for all you teachers out there- isn't that what makes it all worthwhile? ............end of my ravings!

Carry Pine

[Wood Butcher]

I'm not really going to enter into this debate - but wait till you see a 13yr old student go after another student with a chisel in hand racing around the woodwork shop! And he wasn't just having a joke he was after blood. (He did end up suspended then expelled)

[Burnsy]

I work in a primary school that does have an ED unit. Despite this, there are feral kids galore
Carry Pine

Are the ED unit kids in their own class or are they integrated into regular classes?

[Groggy]

Seems to me that what is missing nowadays is the checking responses. As a kid, if things got a bit extreme people were able to intervene in one way or another to moderate your behaviour. It could be a copper giving you a clip over the ear, an adult with a stern word or frog-marching you home, or even your friends 'sorting you out'.

Nowadays all this is missing and, largely, anyone trying to impose discipline is viewed with suspicion or hostility.

The checking responses do not have to involve corporal punishment, but they must be effective, and supported by parents. If they are not supported by parents then perhaps alternate education should be provided, at higher cost, to allow for it.

Short story: As a teen I went to a race meet of guys who spent a fortune on their cars. A feral child was doing things near the cars that worried the owners and they asked the parents to tell him to settle down. The father said "leave him alone, he's just a kid" and took an aggressive looking stand to the guy complaining. At that point the kid yelled "yeah, leave me alone!" got up onto the bonnet of a car, then took off across the roofs of about 20 cars, yelling and stomping as he went.

The whole family got a pretty serious beating out of it - including the wife and the kid (by other mothers and kids). The guy couldn't even drive out of there. Talk about scary, an angry mob will sort out just about anyone I reckon.

[WoodGirl]

You can liken this BB to a classroom. There are boundaries/rules and people respect them ... those that don't get sent to the naughty room for a stretch or expelled. On the other hand the "new classroom" has no rules and the children behave like ferals! :(

[lesmeyer]

Take careful note!!
Bend the reed while it is young (bend - not break).
If a parent has not disciplined the child before the age of 3 - not much hope (I know there are exceptions), but for the most part the child needs boundaries and rules. Without this the child will not have any idea how to handle a given situation.
My sons are living proof. As they grew older - less and less discipline required.
Yes I would spank them on the backsides when required. After the age of about 6 years of age this was no longer required - just a stern warning. Today I have 2 grown up sons with impeccable manners and they respect other people and their property and they will stand for other adults on the train as an outward example of their good manners.
But then maybe my standards are too high for some of the youth of today.
I have always found that vo1 (left hand) and vol2 (right hand) of psychology is a good starting point when raising children.
Regards
Les
Ps. what happened to Burnsy at school is outrageous.

[Schtoo]

Take careful note!!
Bend the reed while it is young (bend - not break).
If a parent has not disciplined the child before the age of 3 - not much hope


I think that's it in a nutshell. No further elaboration from me. ;)

[munruben]

The buck stops with the parents. How often do we hear that? Its the parents to blame for the behavior of their children when they become teenagers. how often do we hear that?
Well I have heard it over and over and I am happy for those of you that made your methods of bringing up your children successful but I can tell you here and now, most of the problem is in the child itself and what is in the child, you wont get out of it. OK so it worked for some, or so we think, because their children are a pillar of society. Well thats fine thinking, but how do we know if the child would not have turned out that way anyway.
We all believe we do the right thing bringing up our kids, all of us. but you can only teach them right from wrong and tell them the right things to do and teach them good moral values. BUT IF ITS THAT EASY how come two children brought up in the same home, almost the same age, going to the same schools and being taught by their parents exactly the same values, ideas and ideals, become two totally different children in their behavioral patterns. I can cite you many instances where two children brought up in this way differ so much in their way of life.
I can speak from personal experience where two boys brought up in the same home by the same parents and had exactly the same upbringing and those two boys turned out totally opposites. One had a work ethic and worked all hours he could and became successful in his life, owning his own business and settled down with a family of his own.
His brother turned to crime, drugs and was dishonest in every way. Just the opposite to his brother and ended up killing himself at 38 years of age.
I know of many families where this sort of thing has happened to their children. One child takes one direction and the other takes an opposite direction. One is good and one is bad. Surely this dispels the idea that the buck stops with the parents. Parents can only do so much.
And as for those that think our kids are perfect angels all the time, I say to you, please don't fool yourself. Maybe you are one of the lucky ones and it has worked for you. Believe me there are plenty of parents out there who believer their child is the perfect child or teenager but when those same kids are out with their friends, they take on a different personality. Most children behave in front of their parents, the way they know their parents want them to act. Its a different story when they go out the front door.

Young Stirlo said in an earlier post here that the only person to blame for his behavior is himself, and when it boils down to it, thats the cold, hard truth. We are all responsible for our own actions and must take the consequences for those actions. Its the decision of each individual within himself as to what path he or she will take. You can't blame other people, Peer pressure, what a load of crap, I had the opportunity to take drugs when I was young but nothing anyone could say or do would make me take that path, That was my decision. Others I knew chose to accept drugs and that was their decision. Nobody made them take the drug. The only person responsible for that action is the person who made the decision to take that path.
I knew boys my own age who thought it was funny to throw a stone through a shop window just for the fun of it and these were children brought up in a good home and environment. I wouldn't dream of doing that. So what causes it. I don'.t know but I do know that everyone is responsible for their own behavior in this world.
Oh yes we have bad influences on the movies. but don't think for one moment that there wasn't bad influences in my young days too. We saw movies with killings, murders and fighting in the westerns we watched, it didn't make us go out and shoot anyone, It was a movie. We had a brain, for gods sake it was a movie, a world of make believe.
Who else can we blame. We blame the movies, the government, the parents, the teachers. Whatever happened to commonsense, aren't we suppose to use that any more, don't our children know right from wrong any more. For crying out loud, The kid is being what he wants to be. The answer lies within himself. No matter what we do or say, you will never change what that individual really wants to be.

[Krazee]

It has been said already in this thread - the issue is consequences. There are two aspects today that did not exist in my younger days.

1. More parents unwilling to take the consequences of making their kids take the consequences for their actions (for whatever reason)

2. Reset buttons. A lot of kids think life is like a computer game - if I don't like the outcome just press the reset button and start again. Unfortunately a lot of people condone and/or support this approach.

[neilb]

I agree totally John. Threre are 2 things a lot of feral kids dont and WON'T believe in and thats :
1. effort
2. resonsibility (thats apparently a dirty word)

Only the kids, themselves can change their attitudes and like you said, the parents have had enough of the back-answering and smart ar**ed foul language , they should not have the extra burden of wondering what the hell their offspring is up to while out today.! Bring back some proper discipline in the court system and when a punishment has been given out, let it fit the offence and not be forgotten too quickly. (And the parents should not be the ones to bear the punishment while this government says you cant disipline kids ) I feel sorry for the dedicated teachers in the schools today, they all have a job to do and it only takes one feral kid to disrupt a whole class . There are too many "Do Gooders" and too much "Politically Correct" crap around these days for the ferals to hide behind. Thats my 2 bobs worth.:~
Neil.

[derekcohen]

A couple of questions for Burnsy and other teachers ...

When faced with an unruly student in your classroom, what do you do?

When students fail to show any respect for your efforts at discipline, what can you do?

Do you seek out the support of your head/principal, and if so what does this person do?

Do you feel that the teachers in your school act as a team, and will unite in mutual support to enforce "consequences of actions"?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ian]

I have had a hell of a last few days and in addition to the fact that I need to vent I thought it might be interesting to get some opinions. As many would know I am a primary teacher. In the last two days I have been acting admin and have had the need to suspend 4 kids yesterday and 4 again today (different kids). On both days I have been kicked, hit and sworn at with language that would make most of you blush. This is in addition to other instances on the two days that have included having chairs thrown at me, attempts at desks thrown at me, water squirted in my face, spat on and having to physically restrain kids. Lets just say that today ended with the police in attendance, and that was from another student related issue that was not mentioned above:oo:.

The consensus usually is that the behaviours are generally learnt at home and many of these kids come from difficult environments. The behaviours are so ingrained that despite the kids knowing they are supported at school and that you genuinely care for them, they will turn in an instant. But realistically where does the buck stop, who can fix it?

Personally, I really feel for the kids who take on board the support they get at my school and work to better themselves with so much negative distraction within the classroom. I believe that the current politically correct agender that insists that all students be allowed to attend regular schools is stealing knowledge from many kids who want to learn at school. I think that most of society is unaware of the current goings on within the school system in many low demographic areas and if they new the truth, change would be demanded.

Ahhhh, that feels better, rant over, now to go and arrange the interschool team:)


Some quotes from parents:
"he gets board easily, you need to entertain him"

"I don't really care if he can't read or write, as long as he does not walk down the street and stab someone"to respond to the last quote first, if the kid can't read or write he will be unemployable and will almost certainly resort to armed robbery (stabbing people) to support himself.

more generally, I find the bits I've highlighed in your first post incredulous.
In NSW, the Work Cover legislation extends to schools. This legislation imposes a requirement that the employer (Department of Education) ensure the health and safety of all employees and visitors to a work site (schools are work sites).
What I can't fathom is how the behavious you (and others) mention can be tollerated. If it happened in any other work environment the perpetrator(s) would be permanently excluded, if not locked up.

So why do schools tollerate this unacceptable behaviour?


ian

[Ashore]

When I went to school some of the teachers should have been up on assult charges , I had one that always had a monday hangover and found a reason to cane the whole class girls included in fact they suffered more. that was age 9 my wife went via that big religious school system and still carries the scars from being taught and disiplined by untrained sisters.
I am not alone in this and I feel the knee jerk reaction was to make sure our kids never suffered as we did, however the whole thing has gone too far and today its the teachers that are in danger far more than the kids.
The teachers rights as well as there ability to controle a student have been taken away and at the same time the snivel libertarians have removed the ability of the police to deal with the problem or the law to punish offenders. Kids are smarter and understand their rights far better than I did at the same age but that is no excuse for the assults you hear about or can see on the web. they take delight in filming asults on phones then displaying it on the web.
Parents to blame easy to say but with two income families or the way the dole was for years incouraging single parents and the more the better the trad family values have become something of the past in many households and kids are bought up far differntly than I was

Who is to blame , who indeed , I'm dammed if I know

[Gingermick]

There's the old adage: "spare the rod, spoil the child."

There is also a new adage "Spoil the child, then spare the rod"

[Sebastiaan56]

Weve always been very clear with our boys about the boundaries of what is acceptable and not acceptable. From birth. Neither has ever been spanked or physically punished in any way. They appear to be growing up very nicely, the eldest got a "rapidly becoming the whole package" from his teacher. We will see how they go as the hormones kick in.

As to whether it is nature or nurture I truly do not know. My best mate raised a bright girl who is now a street kid by her choice. Another one a son now in Long Bay. Both these guys are straight, sensible and intelligent. I think genetics is a part of the puzzle but not all of it. I had an arab family (mum with veil and three kids) in the shop the other day and the 9yo boy was a pest. I told him to stop ordering his mother around, the look he gave me was murderous, he didnt stop. She couldnt/didnt stop him either!! Pity the female teachers stuck with that little mess of a person.

Now, why should our teachers have to put up with the kind of appalling behaviour. I wouldnt, but Im not that politically correct either. They shouldnt, they see the effects of the other 18hrs per day of the kids life so they can report more accurately. They are smart people and can look after themselves and Im sure that this behaviour is the exception to the rule.

Sebastiaan

[wheelinround]

The buck stops with the parents. How often do we hear that? Its the parents to blame for the behavior of their children when they become teenagers. how often do we hear that?
Well I have heard it over and over and I am happy for those of you that made your methods of bringing up your children successful but I can tell you here and now, most of the problem is in the child itself and what is in the child, you wont get out of it. OK so it worked for some, or so we think, because their children are a pillar of society. Well thats fine thinking, but how do we know if the child would not have turned out that way anyway.
We all believe we do the right thing bringing up our kids, all of us. but you can only teach them right from wrong and tell them the right things to do and teach them good moral values. BUT IF ITS THAT EASY how come two children brought up in the same home, almost the same age, going to the same schools and being taught by their parents exactly the same values, ideas and ideals, become two totally different children in their behavioral patterns. I can cite you many instances where two children brought up in this way differ so much in their way of life.
I can speak from personal experience where two boys brought up in the same home by the same parents and had exactly the same upbringing and those two boys turned out totally opposites. One had a work ethic and worked all hours he could and became successful in his life, owning his own business and settled down with a family of his own.
His brother turned to crime, drugs and was dishonest in every way. Just the opposite to his brother and ended up killing himself at 38 years of age.
I know of many families where this sort of thing has happened to their children. One child takes one direction and the other takes an opposite direction. One is good and one is bad. Surely this dispels the idea that the buck stops with the parents. Parents can only do so much.
And as for those that think our kids are perfect angels all the time, I say to you, please don't fool yourself. Maybe you are one of the lucky ones and it has worked for you. Believe me there are plenty of parents out there who believer their child is the perfect child or teenager but when those same kids are out with their friends, they take on a different personality. Most children behave in front of their parents, the way they know their parents want them to act. Its a different story when they go out the front door.

Young Stirlo said in an earlier post here that the only person to blame for his behavior is himself, and when it boils down to it, thats the cold, hard truth. We are all responsible for our own actions and must take the consequences for those actions. Its the decision of each individual within himself as to what path he or she will take. You can't blame other people, Peer pressure, what a load of crap, I had the opportunity to take drugs when I was young but nothing anyone could say or do would make me take that path, That was my decision. Others I knew chose to accept drugs and that was their decision. Nobody made them take the drug. The only person responsible for that action is the person who made the decision to take that path.
I knew boys my own age who thought it was funny to throw a stone through a shop window just for the fun of it and these were children brought up in a good home and environment. I wouldn't dream of doing that. So what causes it. I don'.t know but I do know that everyone is responsible for their own behavior in this world.
Oh yes we have bad influences on the movies. but don't think for one moment that there wasn't bad influences in my young days too. We saw movies with killings, murders and fighting in the westerns we watched, it didn't make us go out and shoot anyone, It was a movie. We had a brain, for gods sake it was a movie, a world of make believe.
Who else can we blame. We blame the movies, the government, the parents, the teachers. Whatever happened to commonsense, aren't we suppose to use that any more, don't our children know right from wrong any more. For crying out loud, The kid is being what he wants to be. The answer lies within himself. No matter what we do or say, you will never change what that individual really wants to be.

:brava:brava:brava John Burnsy I am not knocking you as a teacher kids get irratabel think of yourself at times in your life, fights, and kids being kids. There maybe underlying situations behind it all not anything to do with parents at all. Peer presure, sibling's or even just listening to news.

I hated one situation at school yr 6 where both a good mate and I were split up we were both reasonable students and sat with 2 of the classes worst and backward kids to help them along. These two boys went on to be owners of their own business. Yep one a concrete with a large council contract, the other left the area hi parents were already in business good pillars of the community.
The local major of the Salvo's had 3 sons one whom became such a dero druggy he near died 3 times he is now a Economics Busninesman partner in a firm. One of the other sons was a fantastic musician no idea what happend with him lost contact.

I have seen with all the areas I have lived in from the time of arrival in Australia to even today, all the educational tours I have done region, status and income have nothing to do with behavour. Kids like adults have bad days, sleepless nights, stress etc.

TV what kid watches TV these days try PC, Net, Games plus responsibilities at home the preasure gets to us all.


Just to point out even tho Australia's richest man is well supposedly well educated he has dyslexia as did his father and grandfather, he is into gambling and owns many casino's. His opposite is from a broken family a media barron both of who are in court for legal reasons BREAKING the law. A Judge tries to con his way out of of all things a speading fine this is a well educated man member of the law society.

Some whom have gone through tough times find what is regarded by many as the right path and change then there are those like the execs of HIH who are still in jail all private school boys all well educated all from good families.

Burnsye I believe your the type who is also a good teacher don't let this destroy your ideals please I have seen too many teachers have this done.

[Andy Mac]

I sort of had a vague feeling this type of classroom behaviour existed, but limited to high schools, not primary level. Head in the sand I suppose, esp. with all this ADHD stuff. I feel for you Burnsy, must be taking the shine off the job you hoped to achieve.
I haven't heard of anything like this where my 2 girls are, but its in a pretty good area and seems well resourced.
As for kids knowing what is bad behaviour, surely they must...I know I did when I was a primary school kid! Throwing stones at street lights was wrong. Full stop. Only tried that once, but like a couple of posters here I copped a good flooging with a belt on bare bum whenever I transgressed the boundaries at home! Copped the 1yard ruler regularly in school, and various canes on bum and palm in high school (hand in state school, bum in private...is there something in that!?:rolleyes:) It did seem sadistic at the time, but was never an outright beating till you bleed, and didn't leave a scar, apart from mental one that still says don't push your luck! I can see that the unfettered use of corporal punishment by undisciplined teachers could escalate into abuse, and no doubt has prompted it to be banned...but at what cost?
For the teachers out there on the coal face, does much credence get put on diet as a contributing factor in bad behaviour, particularly in ADHD?

Regards,

[SPIRIT]

l work in two diffrent high schools working with the kids that just can't fit in and have come across some harded teenagers ,just yesterday we were haveing a chat about school and life and stuff when the nick name the kids have in the comunity (stabbers)came out ,bloody hell what is this all about then,they tell me they all harry knifes and screwdrivers then it went on to the war they are haveing with onther school ,they weren't jocking beatings were comen between them .

Now were do we start to rebiuld the system ,a lot of kids do not respond to a standed education system they feel locked up
yelling ,hitting ,suspending sometime do more harm than good ,some kids have a non loveing lifestyle that makes you feel sad
some kids just need a roll modle a mentour if you like .Primary schools can fill this gap but saddly the boys are the ones that need help at the moment but the primary department is top heavy with females and in high schools they only get to see each student for such a short time

say 30 kids for 50min x5 how long does that give the teacher to find out where the kid is commimg from:no:

to end this on a happy note the ten young people we have in the program l have got though to two (fingers crossed)now they care what somebody thinks of them, now this didn't happen with a little sit down and talk and they saw the light it has taken near 100 hrs of working together and talking with them not at them

number one thing all people should learn is right from wrong ,a lot have no idea

SS please don't use spastic in that way l also work with people with disabilty and its a bit like the nigger word to them:).

[namtrak]

Unconditional love is all any kid wants. End of story.

[Gra]

more generally, I find the bits I've highlighed in your first post incredulous.
In NSW, the Work Cover legislation extends to schools. This legislation imposes a requirement that the employer (Department of Education) ensure the health and safety of all employees and visitors to a work site (schools are work sites).
What I can't fathom is how the behavious you (and others) mention can be tollerated. If it happened in any other work environment the perpetrator(s) would be permanently excluded, if not locked up.

So why do schools tollerate this unacceptable behaviour?
ian

Ian,

You been to a hospital recently, Nurses are regularly assaulted and charges are rearly press because "They are sick". The local hospital employs ARMED security guards in the A&E area, and it isn't just the patients

A real life example, at the hospital my wife works at a Dr got mad because he couldnt find the paper that was supplied by the hospital in the tea room, so he ripped a phone out of the wall and threw it across the room. The hospitals response.

Send all the nursing staff on anger management courses, not the doctors the nurses :shrug::no:

PS My wife refused to go until the Dr's were also sent, she still hasn't gone :2tsup::2tsup:

[silentC]

Well, I think it's a combination of lots of things, including a clear decline in standards of teaching (in my opinion). Some of the spelling and grammar mistakes I see from teacher communications is a bit of a concern (including in some posts here). I'm not having a go at the individuals, but I just expect that these things would be much better than they seem to be. But then things like spelling, grammar and times-tables just don't seem to be as important these days as they were made to seem when I was a kid.

My 8yo daughter last night had some homework to do regarding time. She had no idea that an hour has 60 minutes, or how many minutes in a quarter of an hour. The questions were along the lines of "what time will it be 1 hour after 7:15". She couldn't do it. I guess I just expected that these would be basic things taught in class. I asked her if the teacher ever checked her homework - no he doesn't.

Discipline is a word that carries connotations of authority and punishment. But there is a lot more to it. Discipline is also about paying attention in class, working hard to understand, stretching your limits. My daughter needs to be pushed, the teachers just aren't doing it. She will cruise along because she's in the middle of the class but she could be a lot better with a bit of discipline. Her personality is to be easily distracted - a bit of a dreamy kid like I was. I remember getting a clip under the ear on more than one occasion from a teacher who thought I wasn't paying attention.

For our part as parents, we are a bit slack with them, I know. It's too easy to just let them watch TV or play video games. I make them go outside and play pirates or soldiers or whatever they want. They have a ball once they get out there but making them move off the couch can be a real effort.

If I found out one of our kids was abusive or violent towards anyone at school, particularly a person in authority, it would have very grave consequences for them - they'd be deprived of their freedom or have favourite toys confiscated. The problem is that so many parents apparently don't give a stuff what their kids do.

I think it's a combination of lifestyle, exposure to images in the media, lack of discipline from parents and teachers, the acceptance of mediocre performance in school, and a shift of focus on 'what's important' in the education system. There may even be physiological affects of diet and environment that are turning kids into angry, short tempered loonies. I don't know.

Wish someone had the answer.

[Zed]

I feel there is no easy answer.

I was mistreated at school and at home by my old man.

I got in trouble, I got out of trouble. but I was smart - I worked out why I got caught and worked around it. I got caned, whipped, flogged, teased, bastardised. by everyone (except mum - bless her!) the lot.

I dont feel there are any easy answers - each kid is different, and have to be treated as such.

whos fault was it ? EVERYONE involved. Humans are meat eaters, meat eaters are smart, aggressive, domineering and social animals. It's in our blood...

I think you just gotta take responsibility for your own actions and your own kids. I at least have a good role model for my kid - I know what went wrong for me and I just have to follow the opposite path. he might turn into a bad person, but I hope he wont. I just hope im up to doing the right thing and showing him the right way.

A few things I WILL try to teach him;

If someone hits you hit him back, but dont hit first.
Think of the consequences of your actions.
Treat people the way you want to be treated.
Dont try to make others be like you. Dont let them make you be like them.
Stay away from drugs and god botherers.
KNow when to walk away.
Be true to yourself.
Love your mum.

what a depressing subject!!!!!!! :(

[munruben]

A few things I WILL try to teach him;

If someone hits you hit him back, but dont hit first.
Think of the consequences of your actions.
Treat people the way you want to be treated.
Dont try to make others be like you. Dont let them make you be like them.
Stay away from drugs and god botherers.
KNow when to walk away.
Be true to yourself.
Love your mum.
Thats all you can do Zed. Teach your children what you believe in and point them in the right direction and hope they turn out a better person for it. Thats all any of us can do.The rest is up to the child.

[Sebastiaan56]

Wish someone had the answer.

I dont have it all, I do know that kids model the behaviour of those around them and particularly those they respect. Essentially they feed our own behaviour back to us until they reach the age when peers count for more, teenage years I think,

[Zed]

youth is wasted on the young.:(

[Rossluck]

This may be off-track a little, and I apologise in advance, but I'm sure that teachers also need to take a few lessons from history. I refer specifically to the huge numbers of people in our society who were misjudged by teachers and were "written off" as "average" or "not likely to succeed at a high leverl" and so on.

I listen daily to an ABC radio program by Richard Fidler, called "Conversation Hour" (11 am). It absolutely amazes me the number of highly successful people he talks with were rejected in such a way by judgemental teachers. Surgeons, Billionaires, writers, actors, lawyers, (yes, and even programmers) were all told at school that they were "average".

[Sebastiaan56]

This may be off-track a little, and I apologise in advance, but I'm sure that teachers also need to take a few lessons from history. I refer specifically to the huge numbers of people in our society who were misjudged by teachers and were "written off" as "average" or "not likely to succeed at a high leverl" and so on.

I listen daily to an ABC radio program by Richard Fidler, called "Conversation Hour" (11 am). It absolutely amazes me the number of highly successful people he talks with were rejected in such a way by judgemental teachers. Surgeons, Billionaires, writers, actors, lawyers, (yes, and even programmers) were all told at school that they were "average".

Start another thread, its a great topic

[Zed]

Ross,

Agree with what you say totally. I listened to the conversation hour and they had some "full on" african american guy recently who was a druggie and was on "last chance" and thus turned his life around... and now is the head honcho for some druggie institute in Australia. what makes him even more interesting given his background, you would think, that his teaching/experience would allow him to be a great role model. (He probably is) ALAS hsi own kid died of a H overdose..

Goes back to some previous points; all you can do is try to do the best u can. kids have to take responsibility for thier own actions... harsh lesson for the above and his (only) kid.

I get very upset when I hear about parents losing thier kids and most unfortunatly "only" kids. my heart goes out to them.

Also off tangent - i went to the macca's charity ball the last weekend and they always play a vid of sick kids and how they are affected/helped... I'd had a few drinks by then and the vid affects me every year... I get quite emotional and need to hug my kid!!! My wife has excused me from watching the vid next year.... I reckon the donations after the vid are thru the roof for a few minutes while those memories are fresh in parents minds....

I never thought I would say it; but thank mother earth for macca's charity house!

[bitingmidge]

Unconditional love is all any kid wants. End of story.
That's all a kid wants alright.

And part of giving unconditional love is setting parameters to enable the kid to grow into a responsible human being. A parent has greater responsibility than just to love a kid. Love comes naturally.

There wouldn't be many of us round here now if our ancestors had adopted the "unconditional love" approach to teaching their kids about the dangers of Raptors!

It's OK to flog a kid unconditionally.

P
:D

[silentC]

Actually all my kid wants is more playstation time and more Lego pirates. I spent months making him a cupboard to put them in. The first thing he wanted to do was hide in it. But it does give me an idea. Sensory deprivation is supposed to be good for the soul, isn't it?

[munruben]

I dont have it all, I do know that kids model the behaviour of those around them and particularly those they respect. Essentially they feed our own behaviour back to us until they reach the age when peers count for more, teenage years I think, Exactly, as I said earlier, children behave the way they know you want them to behave and I dont think we can blame peer pressure. If it was true that the child was so easily influenced in such a short time frame, how come the values that we, as parents have spent more than ten years teaching them, are so easily discarded by some children.
I think the truth lies in your statement above "they feed our own behaviour back to us" because they know that is what you want to see, thats how you want them to behave. When they get older and they don't have to answer to mum or dad, then, I truly believe, the real person comes to life.

[Sebastiaan56]

Exactly, as I said earlier, children behave the way they know you want them to behave and I dont think we can blame peer pressure. If it was true that the child was so easily influenced in such a short time frame, how come the values that we, as parents have spent more than ten years teaching them, are so easily discarded by some children.
I think the truth lies in your statement above "they feed our own behaviour back to us" because they know that is what you want to see, thats how you want them to behave. When they get older and they don't have to answer to mum or dad, then, I truly believe, the real person comes to life.

Hi John,

by modelling Im talking about a more unconcious process. Some examples; start yawning in a meeting, 5 minutes later everyone is yawning too. Similarly one uni class I attended the students increasingly sat on the LHS of the room, so where did the lecturer gravitate to? If violence is used kids learn violence, if they observe patience and tolerance they will tend to be more tolerant etc. Same for alcohol/drug use, gambling, religion etc. Violence is endemic in our culture, football, politics, media, computor games etc. So violence becomes an OK response because they see it all around them. I truly believe they are little parrots, they show us how we behave.

Teenage years, things change. Peer pressure becomes progressively more important. It isnt helped by the hormone thing. Rebelling is a valid way of determining who you want to be, pity it can be destructive. And............ the big caveat........... "all kids are different"

Totally agree about your comment about getting away from their parents to become real people. I'll go one further and say it seldom happens before someone is 40yo or until there is a major upheaval that reorients priorities. (apols to the younger people on the list). Sometimes it never happens.

A lot of this is theory and observation, my boys are 9 & 11 so I have some way to go, but I hope they have the backbone to choose a smart peer group when the time comes,

Sebastiaan

[LotteBum]

This is such an interesting topic and I've read with interest all of your comments on the subject.

My personal opinion is that each kid is different. My sister had an awful lot of respect for authority. I, on the other hand, did not. When I did something bad, my parents adopted the same principle as they would with my sister - they'd flog me. It just made me more and more angry and far, far worse. At the end of it, I would be regretting the horrible things I said to my parents whilst at the same time resenting them for the flogging.

What I needed was, when I was naughty, for my folks to ask me to go to my room for x amount of time (depending on age) to think about what I had done. On the odd occassion they did this, it worked. I would come out from my room, having sincerely thought about my actions, and I would sincerely apologise (I was always taught to mean it when I apologise).

Tailoring parenting to children's needs is the key, I think. I am of the opinion that there really is no need for hitting children (unless it is a smack on the fingers to get them away from danger etc), and mutual respect is what should be fostered. Children need to respect their parents wishes, but at the same time, I think it is important for parents to respect *SOME* of their children's wishes.

I am struggling a little with a lot of things, as I recently found out I am pregnant. In about 25 weeks, we will have a little one and I have a lot of thoughts about parenting that I would like to embrace. For instance, television is the root of a lot of evil in children. So many of those 'kids' movies feature violence and bad language, and I really do not think that this is appropriate - particularly not unsupervised. A kids movie should be something children watch on special occasions with their family - not something that is implemented as a subsitute babysitter when the parents are too busy to look after them, or do not wish to look after them. The smart thing would be to take them to a park, where you can sit whilst they play.

I also think children need to learn about common courtesy (please, thank you, excuse me, may I etc) and respect for other people. Children are too aware of their rights, and that comes from parents who wrap them in cotton so that they turn into the little sissies they are these days.

As a migrant from Denmark, I've seen two sides of the story. Over there, we didn't wear uniforms, called our teachers by first name and were taught to stick together as a class (we also weren't shuffled around every year like kids here are) and look after eachother - which we did. We also had a lot of respect for our teachers. Coming out here was like stepping into the stone age. We had to wear ugly uniforms, call our mumu wearing teachers by surname and behave like robots. I found this very difficult, as I was used to being respected and liked by my teachers. Instead, teachers here would scream at us when we were noisy, make us write lines, give detention etc. Over there, the teachers would phone our parents, who would then sit down and have a good chat with us that night. That solved problems. Being sent to the office and screamed at by a mumu wearng headmaster with a face like a chicken *rse, did not.

I think a lot of what is happening these days, is that parents are working long hours and justify this by buying extravagant gifts for their children. If both parents have to work (which I realise that some do), why not forgive yourself, accept that children have fun at after school care, and spend the weekends on them, rather than dragging them around to shopping centres which all kids hate anyway...

[Christopha]

BehviourS? Is this from a teacher???
Personally I am a perfect parent.... I will get my sons to post that on here too, just as soon as they get their extradition problems sorted out.

[ss_11000]

SS please don't use spastic in that way l also work with people with disabilty and its a bit like the nigger word to them:).

sorry bout that. i didnt mean any offence:)


No not at all, especially if you are 15.

thanx mate:cool:

[Zed]

Hi John,

If violence is used kids learn violence, if they observe patience and tolerance they will tend to be more tolerant etc. Same for alcohol/drug use, gambling, religion etc. Violence is endemic in our culture, football, politics, media, computor games etc. So violence becomes an OK response because they see it all around them.
Sebastiaan

I gotta disagree with you there mate, I was subject to horrendous violence. I wont go into details but think about fishing poles and naked torso's - multiply that a few times.... Those of you that have met me would have an inkling - My "father" is the same size as I and I was between the ages of 4 - 15.... a bit of a late bloomer.

having said that; I am very non violent - I can talk a tough game, Ill grant you that. BUT I have not been violent for many many years and never have I provoked violence against myself. I have on a number of occasions defended the weak and/or abused tho. pity the offender, im ashamed of some o th stuff I did.

Im living proof countering your opinion in this regard.

i think the prime thing to learn here is that kids are different - they dont all respond to violence in kind.

[namtrak]

There wouldn't be many of us round here now if our ancestors had adopted the "unconditional love" approach to teaching their kids about the dangers of Raptors!

A quick revision of your anthropology will show that humans weren't around during the time of the dinosaurs.

But seriously, so many kids only receive love based on a complicated and unspoken set of conditions.

I will love you as long as your room is clean.

I will love you as long you don't end up on the dole.

I will love you as long as I can live my life vicariously through you.

I will love your school work as long as you improve it.

I will love you as long as I approve of your friends.

So many kids grow up believing they have to earn the love of those around them. That their position within their family, school, peer group is conditional upon their behaviour. etc

[Zed]

vicariously

PRECARIOUSLY mate - totally dif meaning!!!! lol!!

so long as u didnt mean vivaciously!! :D

[namtrak]

No monkey man, I actually did mean vicariously!!

Parents who want their kids to grow up and achieve things they never did.

BTW Zed, did you have a part in this website? (http://www.monkeymanhands.com/)

[Zed]

no, nice hijack!

[Burnsy]

A couple of questions for Burnsy and other teachers ...
When faced with an unruly student in your classroom, what do you do?

No easy answer to this one Derek, as I know you know, each kid is different and requires a different response. The response does need however to be transparent so that the other kids view it as resonable and do not feel that someone is getting special treatment. The only straight answer I could give is in a case where a student is endangering others, themselves or staff and that is removal of the danger, through restraint if required.



When students fail to show any respect for your efforts at discipline, what can you do?

Not alot, if they are a child who has active parents then a call home or simply the threat of one can help. This is assuming of course that the child is aware of what they have done wrong, why it was wrong and the need for consequences, some need these spelt out to them others pick it up themselves.



Do you seek out the support of your head/principal, and if so what does this person do?

Yes, we have a system of using red cards when assistance is required. The Admin are very supportive and will increase the consequence if students refuse to follow instructions or do as they were initially asked.



Do you feel that the teachers in your school act as a team, and will unite in mutual support to enforce "consequences of actions"?

Regards from Perth

Derek
Yes, our school would not function without everyone supporting each other. We only have one Deputy and that is seldom enough so many of us spend our DOTT (Duties Other Than Teaching) time running around after red cards and helping out.

PS Much better day today and it was woodwork afternoon to top it off:2tsup:

[Carry Pine]

Are the ED unit kids in their own class or are they integrated into regular classes?

They have their own class + have one-two hours in regular if they can cope with it.

CP

[Jedo_03]

Some will remember I posted yesterday (page 2) concerning my g'daughter going to the principal...
Quote [(1) just today
10 yr old g'daughter came over - very sad and upset
seems one of her friends at school told her that her mother had punched and kicked her... always doing it, she said...
g'daughter told her mother (who is a pre-school teacher - mandatory reporter and all that...) who advised g'daughter to tell prinicipal (she went with her) on the grounds that better to stop it now rather than let it escalate further...
Right or wrong... what worries me is that my g'daughter could end up in flames by telling the principal...] End quote

Ok - well here's what happened...
G'daughter went to school. 10am phone call to her mother - please come to the school, your daughter is crying and upset: arrives to find g'daughter and said girl (abuse victim) sitting together in principals office - "it's okay, they're the best of friends and girl says she's glad g'daughter told somebody cos she wasn't brave enough..." says principal... But then says "I think it would be better if you took (g'daughter) out of school today cos DOCS has been informed and there might be some trouble..."
Shee!... Does this principal have ANY common sense at all..?
What is it with these egoistic morons that they believe they can intervene in children's lives..? Teacher knows best... Does he even flapping realise what damage he is potentially causing by discussing this with BOTH kids present - and NO parents - and sod-all psychological experience in counselling abused kids, except his own damned ideation of how bloody clever he must be - cos he's the principal...
What the hell was he thinking when he called the 2 kids into his office for a little tete a tete..?
Why didn't he just do his damned duty as a mandatory reporter and inform DOCS and let them do their job?
Sorry for the vent and the rant - but some of the other things my g'daughter comes home and tells me about what teachers (and the principal) have said and done have resulted in my interventions (interviews with teachers and principals generally lead to nowhere - cos they know far more than us parents and g'parents)
I believe that the teaching fraternity contribute MUCH to the growing of our kids with their own negativity towards kids... I'll end with this - One female teacher said to me personally (about my g'daughter) "Well she can be an insolent little bitch at times..."
"Hey - Teacher... Leave them kids alone..."
Jedo

[Burnsy]

BehviourS? Is this from a teacher???


Can't find the quote anywhere but if it was me it was because my fingers can't keep up:). I am not however, trying to put across that I am a great speller, I have said before on this board that I am not. It is one thing that try as I may I just can not grasp, simple rules just pass me by and I confuse myself. It is extremely irritating and annoys me to no end. I write all my reports and correspondence with a dictionary by my side. My students know it is my weakness and will come to me with a dictionary and ask me to help them find a word rather than just asking "Mr Burns, how do you spell conscientious?" Yes I looked it up:rolleyes:

But that is a separate topic so I will not hijack the thread any further.

[Carry Pine]

Burnsy,

I have recently attended an NCIS training day. Non- confrontational intervention Strategies (95% how to talk to kids and 5% how to grab them). What it taught me - the old bloke was that we, as teachers have the advantage. We can anticipate what will happen and can plan for it.

Some of my colleagues just wait for something to happen and react.
Kids are clever and they see disruptive behavior modelled on TV. One teacher had a group 'kept in' and writing out school rules. One kid called out ' there's a spelling mistake in the rules.' I'm there thinking ignore! Another kid calls out 'Yeh'. The teacher says, without looking at the rules .........................'No there's not.' What developed was unbelievable. Almost a riot about the spelling of words on a rule sheet. Bad reaction!


Today in woodwork, I was sitting with some lovely kids from the IM class who are integrated into my class and I was holding a length of western red cedar 10mm X 50mm X 2 metres. I jokingly said 'This would be a long smacking stick to hrry people up'. The loveliest little 10 y.o. girl looked at me through her glasses and said ' Dad uses his belt at home on us.'

There are no simple answers to Burnsy's situation. When you need to make big decisions you can only go on what you really believe. Do kids really need to be drinking out of Dad's can when they are 2? Should 8 year olds be watching 'American Pie'?

Carry Pine

[Article99]

/rant on

You've got the common do-gooder to thank for that. 'Oh no, the child needs counselling. Don't give him a quick strap across the wrists for ....'

Alright, I'm only a young bull and all and went through school without the fear of a hiding, but what I see from the same and newer generations is nothing short of appalling.

I'm not saying we need corporal punishment, just less of this 'everyone's a victim' BS.

High time I reckon kids be made to learn consequences of their actions, rather than have a bloody shrink diagnose them. That simple..

I was told once that people had expectations of themselves and others that were written in places, but didn't need reminding. Folks were taught what they were from day one. Somewhere along the lines, it's all been against the wall.

Parents, Teachers, Do-Gooders alike, lift your game. :~

Actually, we'd be better off without the do-gooders. P!ss off, ya blaggers. :((

No offence intended to Burnsey or others specifically, more so entire groups as a whole. I'm sure of which there are good and bad eggs in each. :wink:

/rant off.

[Burnsy]

Burnsy,

I have recently attended an NCIS training day. Non- confrontational intervention Strategies (95% how to talk to kids and 5% how to grab them). What it taught me - the old bloke was that we, as teachers have the advantage. We can anticipate what will happen and can plan for it.

Some of my colleagues just wait for something to happen and react.
Kids are clever and they see disruptive behavior modelled on TV. One teacher had a group 'kept in' and writing out school rules. One kid called out ' there's a spelling mistake in the rules.' I'm there thinking ignore! Another kid calls out 'Yeh'. The teacher says, without looking at the rules .........................'No there's not.' What developed was unbelievable. Almost a riot about the spelling of words on a rule sheet. Bad reaction!


Today in woodwork, I was sitting with some lovely kids from the IM class who are integrated into my class and I was holding a length of western red cedar 10mm X 50mm X 2 metres. I jokingly said 'This would be a long smacking stick to hrry people up'. The loveliest little 10 y.o. girl looked at me through her glasses and said ' Dad uses his belt at home on us.'

There are no simple answers to Burnsy's situation. When you need to make big decisions you can only go on what you really believe. Do kids really need to be drinking out of Dad's can when they are 2? Should 8 year olds be watching 'American Pie'?

Carry Pine
We have done quite alot of training on different systems and approaches and I find you usually get something out of each one. As I said in my response to Derek, I believe there is no one response or answer that fits all for a given behaviour and unfortunately to many university lecturers make undergraduates believe there is. Every prac teacher that comes into my class comments that in regard to our school, the lecturers are so far off the ball it is not funny.

I am with you on the riot thing, there are to many teachers around who are not willing to admit to kids that they were, or are wrong and all it does is cause conflict. I always admit when I am wrong to my class and appologise if I do the wrong thing such as blame an innocent party.

[Christopha]

Can't find the quote anywhere but if it was me it was because my fingers can't keep up:). I am not however, trying to put across that I am a great speller, I have said before on this board that I am not. It is one thing that try as I may I just can not grasp, simple rules just pass me by and I confuse myself. It is extremely irritating and annoys me to no end. I write all my reports and correspondence with a dictionary by my side. My students know it is my weakness and will come to me with a dictionary and ask me to help them find a word rather than just asking "Mr Burns, how do you spell conscientious?" Yes I looked it up:rolleyes:

But that is a separate topic so I will not hijack the thread any further.

Burnsy, maaate, it's the heading of this whole thread.
"Kids Behaviours, who is to blame?" :wink:

[wheelinround]

I am with you on the riot thing, there are to many teachers around who are not willing to admit to kids that they were, or are wrong and all it does is cause conflict. I always admit when I am wrong to my class and appologise if I do the wrong thing such as blame an innocent party.

Burnsy this is why I said you are one of many good teachers It is a shame that so many others can not admit they are human and have faults.

The kids in question your original post and vent they could be the sort of kid who has been upset by the changes at the school including your roll taking you or the other person your relieving away.

I saw this at a primary school here in Sydney where the teachers went through the whole year to year changes with the kids from kindy to 2nd class then from there other teachers took them to 6th having the same teacher year after year. These kids were unbelievable manners everything close to these teachers as close as any parent might be.

The problem came when they left and went on to high school they couldn't cope couldn't handle the many teachers in one day a few of the students had to go back and repeat due to health issues brought on by the practice. The primary school had to change its ways. Teachers left because of it the 3 or 4 high schools had to learn how to cope and handle those kids for 5 years.

To many of these children it was there first stable thing in this country they had this was back in the 75's/80's and close to a immigration centre.

[Burnsy]

I saw this at a primary school here in Sydney where the teachers went through the whole year to year changes with the kids from kindy to 2nd class then from there other teachers took them to 6th having the same teacher year after year. These kids were unbelievable manners everything close to these teachers as close as any parent might be.


We have muti age classes and loop many kids as you mentioned. I have a few in my class this year for the third time and they are brilliant because we all understand each other very well as you say and it allows us to have alot of fun. There are others I had had for two years that I had to swap out this year as I could not stand to have them in my class again due to the constant stress. Other teachers were in the same boat so we swap a few troubled ones around to give each other a break, sometimes it is better the devil you don't know:rolleyes:

I think essentially most of the issues our kids have are driven by their out of school environment. As they mature, especially with the year sevens, there are those that make massive shifts in their behaviour as they suddenly look around and realise what they are doing and take control of their learning. It is funny to see this happen as many with younger siblings suddenly question the behaviour of the younger ones and can't understand why they don't get it and make the change. We have one such boy who I often see telling his little brother "no detentions today OK?" as they part company in the morning.

Thanks for everyones responses, it has been great to hear the different view points and angles.

[SPIRIT]

so l think we have covered why kid are so disruptive but how are we going about fixing it or are we just going to keep putting bandaid stop gaps in place

l hear in the UK that they are going to over haul the education system from the bottom up ,spending heeps of money ,:?

l have a new kid in my team a EMO cuts and all ,where do you start with kids this messed up ,

[munruben]

A lot of this is theory and observation, my boys are 9 & 11 so I have some way to go, but I hope they have the backbone to choose a smart peer group when the time comes, And the wisdom to know the difference.

[munruben]

/rant on

You've got the common do-gooder to thank for that. 'Oh no, the child needs counselling. Don't give him a quick strap across the wrists for ....'. Yeah and the counselor probably hasn't even got any kids but he can tell you what to do cos he's read the text book on child behavior.
You raise some good points. :2tsup:

[Grahame Collins]

I am a teacher like the others who has seen and suffered the same as the others who have replied. Our kids are not like us ,some of them are affected by a huge range of factors that did not apply to us when we were growing up.

The following I believe are some of the reasons why some of the kids act the way they do.Its not an excuse for them ,nor is it a criticism,its an observation.It does not apply to all kids.There still are a good number that are still being raised well.

Split families –divorce separation –a lack of a father figure.I see problem kids that ride roughshod over Mum and occasionally Dad.

Socio economic –Mum and dad both work full time- but not near enough time spent with the kids. Too much time spent unaccounted for with their peer group while Mum and Dad are toiling to pay off expensive houses and consumer goods.

Peer group –attitudes formed among the peer group are near impossible to overcome- many kids behave according to the expectations of the peer group.

Environment-some of these kids endure home conditions that would make you weep- outright abuse from drunken or drug addict parents –etc.

Media especially the TV –attitudes and behaviors are copied from what they hear and see- remember the stuff on laser beam assaults- guess who got shot in the eyes with a laser beam pointer -2 days after a few instances of the problem was reported on TV.

TV and Movies, DVDs that also demonstrate to the kids that it is other peoples rights mean nothing. Personal property and that of others does not need respect as you will get a new one. Watch any action movie and death ,injury, assault and property damage features high in the action scenes.

Communication technology in general is faceless and anonymous, therefore little responsibility is needed.An example is the anonymous bullying by SMS. Do you know most kids with a phone ignore parent and school rules and still bring them to school.What can a teacher do? Take the phone from the student until last lesson.Until that time we are responsible for an expensive phone.Some kids use the phone photo video system to record out of school fights that are provoked ( yes provoked)

Lack of real penalties for real misbehavior in school-do you think being suspended from school is a punishment for poor behavior-it’s a reward. Punishment is taking something away that the offender wants.Usually that is in the parental domain,

Back to banging our heads against the wall!

And No,I don't have a real solution either
Grahame

[munruben]

Peer group –attitudes formed among the peer group are near impossible to overcome- many kids behave according to the expectations of the peer group.Nevertheless, this is the child's decision to follow the leader, you can't blame the company you keep for your behavior. Its a personal, calculated decision by the individual to follow the path they choose.


some of these kids endure home conditions that would make you weep- outright abuse from drunken or drug addict parents –etc.This is nothing new, It has been going on for generations but I agree would have a negative effect on children of that family but don't see that it would necessarily cause the child to turn out bad. I have known of case similar to this where the child has only been too pleased to get out of the home and lead a normal life because they have experienced first hand what it's like to live under those terrible conditions.


especially the TV –attitudes and behaviors are copied from what they hear and see- remember the stuff on laser beam assaults- guess who got shot in the eyes with a laser beam pointer -2 days after it was reported on TV. I think TV has a lot to answer for with the quality of material it shoves down out throat. I guess we weren't subjected to the graphic displays of violence and the lack of moral standards portrayed on the screen today but where, as parents, did we go wrong and allow this to happen. When did we start to allow the swearing in public places and why do we tolerate this kind of behavior? and it's not just the kids who do this. I hear adults my own age swearing in public, at the local club I visit, out in the streets and on TV. Why did we allow that to happen in the first place?


that also demonstrate to the kids that it is other peoples rights mean nothing. Personal property and that of others does not need respect as you will get a new one. Watch any action movie and death ,injury, assault and property damage features high in the action scenes. I agree, the quality, again, is appalling .Just take a look at our locally produced "Home and away" to see the moral values and disrespect to the older generation they show us every day of the week but we still have to take responsibility for our own actions surely I still feel that people behave the way they do because thats the way they want to behave. We are all subjected to these things mentioned in this thread by yourself and others but we are not all murderers or criminals or rapists. So what made these people turn out the way they did, why didn't we all turn out bad.
I'm sorry but I can't believe that the influence of TV, movies, peer pressure or whatever can make a person do what he or she doesn't want to do. We hear it in the courts so often that "poor 20 year old Johnny had a bad life is on drugs, saw it on TV, peer pressure etc.caused him to do what he did" It's always someone else's fault never poor little Johnnies fault.
Lets live in the real world for once, I had peer pressure, I had TV and movies showing people doing the wrong things. I read of crime and rape and murder in the newspapers. I mixed with "bad" people. I saw bad things happen. I chose not to do those things
Whatever it is inside of me, made me make that decision while others chose to go the other way. I left school when I was 9 years old I had no real education but I worked hard to be a better person and struggled to achieve a better lifestyle than my parents had and I did that. I had plenty of chances to take the easy way out and make excuses as to why I couldn't succeed in life but I got on with the job instead of blaming everyone else for my "hard luck" I taught myself by reading books.
No, I don't know the answers but lets stop blaming everyone and everything else for someones bad behavior and face reality and stop making excuses for them and let them face the consequences of their actions.

[Carry Pine]

Who is to blame?

One thing that I realised about 2 years ago was that it is no use blaming anybody who is irresponsible. People in authority know it is no use telling a down-and-out person that he suffers from alcohol abuse and contributes nothing to the community. Better to blame someone who is in a responsible position like his parents , school teachers or politicians. When kids won't do homework or wear uniform at school parents look to the teachers to enforce the 'rule' and if it's not done, the teachers are responsible. If a child goes agro in my class, his parents ask 'What did you do to set him off?'. If a kid mucks up on the way home from school on the bus, the driver has lost control.

And even if we could answer Burnsy's question about who is responsible, what could we do about it? As a teacher, I'm not prepared to accept the responsibility for what a kid wears to school or when he swears at school staff. His parents will say that he has a school uniform but sneaks other clothes into his bag and that maybe the teacher provoked him.(Let's have a time wasting session to replay everything that happened in the lesson so we find out it really wasn't the kid's fault.)

Some people are very close to others who are victims of addiction. Far from writing their friends and relations off, they assist them, pay their fines, clean up after them and sometimes stand in the way of them going to jail. When that person finally comes around, the helper is labelled as an 'enabler'. The addiction wouldn't have been so bad if those do-gooders hadn't been enabling him over those years. Sometimes you try and do the responsible thing and you get it thrown in your face.

Carry Pine

[dazzler]

Kids are like border collies. First two years sets thier behaviours for life IMO.

We rarely smack our children and if so its a small one on the hand that hurts thier pride more than anything else.

Just like a border collie its consistancy. EVERY time they need direction they get it. If they are stepping out of line they need to be stopped immediately, and if that means stopping your conversation mid sentence/turning from the TV or putting down the garden hose then you need to do that.

We have had our kids in both public and private (catholic). Would choose catholic over public anyday. At least the teachers are given support and dont need to take crap from any kid.

I feel for you burnsy, thanks for your efforts, but the orcs are at the walls, Grond is battering the front gate, and the darkness is open you. :p

Best to be moving on to greener pastures if you can. :)

[wheelinround]

Burnsy I recall you saying your not a parent yet ???

From the day we are born we are being poked proded and stared at, told to grow up, act a particular way, behave, try this try that, back ground has nothing to do with any of these things

Socio-economics has nothing to do with bad or good behaviour rich and famous poor ,stupid, dumb etc all.

Many have said before look around you and see what/who is beaking laws throwing tamntrums, taking drugs, grog, those who are getting away with it always hide it the most.

I know a teacher who was at private catholic schools all her life, is at present on long service leave pending retirement who has slung all her investments to her kids which includes 4 properties, just so she can go and claim the Gov pention.
She see's herself as honest hard working paid her taxes and deserves some back. She is earning cash in hand for work she is tutoring this includes deals with local councils.

To this we see daily media with news of both sides fo the coin those from low income and those from high income all breaking the laws the same laws. It's the life draw whic dictates $$$$$ what we do with it is OUR OWN DOING.

Ok what do we do

We point out that WE/THEY/YOU are responsible for your actions if you shoot into a crowd with a gun you'll hit kill someone, If you thow a stone at a window it breaks.
One thing in life is critain DEATH we are all born to die.

If they stopped pandering and saying that OH my child can't shouldn't see that it will effect them for the rest of their lives.

I am a fine example disable for many years since age 7 when it first exposed itself 40 years on still no closer to exact diagnosis, and for 40+ years I have had to fight for the freedom to be seen heard and recognised for what I can do have done have taught myslef as well as having been taught. I have been told by proffessionals it shouldn't bother me but if thesame thing happens to an able then OH shyte they need counselling they trauma treament. My family backgound comes from both sides of the coin as many of us do.

I give the example of the rich man who used to wander Sydney's streets as a pawper putting coins meters so peole would be having to pay fines. Till he got caught and news changed his life for ever again. He had left th high flying life becasue he couldn't handle the preasure. He had to hide yet again.

Look at the ones who encourage the post it on the net they are making $$$$$$$$$$$$ from it. How much are they contributing to the cause and effect.

Truth or Dare

[munruben]

Well said wheelin'

[Grahame Collins]

Some parents behaviors even though well meaning give kids the wrong message.
Watch carefully on a very wet day.It is raining hard,how many kids wear raincoats (or should I say,are made to wear raincoats?. Where I live almost none. Students turn up for classes soaked. The same parents of some of the kids who won't wear the raincoats bring the cherubs to school in the car.

One of the school gates has the road ending at the gate.It is also the vehicle and bicycle access for school. Parents drive right to the gate and double park and /or 3 point turn to drop their cherubs closer to the school buildings so the cherubs who will not wear a raincoat will not get as wet.

It is this type of attitude that the kids pick up on.

If anyones interested I have taken the problem up with he appropriate person and have had the buck passed.Needless to say I am still working on it.
Grahame

[dazzler]

I thought Nth Queenslaners had oily skin to repel water...:p

[Gingermick]

That helps slip by new south welshmen when playing footy.

Weren't you in taswegia?

[dazzler]

That helps slip by new south welshmen when playing footy.

Weren't you in taswegia?

Kicked me out :D . Wasnt into that sister stuff :p

[Burnsy]

Who is to blame?
As a teacher, I'm not prepared to accept the responsibility for what a kid wears to school or when he swears at school staff. His parents will say that he has a school uniform but sneaks other clothes into his bag and that maybe the teacher provoked him.(Let's have a time wasting session to replay everything that happened in the lesson so we find out it really wasn't the kid's fault.)
Carry Pine
Fair comment. It appears that the whole blame game when it comes to parents and teachers is a universal argument. I have friends who work in elite private schools that make the same point. I agree that parents cannot be held soley responsible for their child's behaviour, especially teenagers, however I can not see how it can be anyone but the parents fault when an 11 year old does not wear, uniform to school, brings mobile phones and other banned items to school or has not taken their ADHD medication.


Burnsy I recall you saying your not a parent yet ???

That is correct wheelin, but I am not sure what relevance this has. I have met many parents who have retrained to become teachers, many are good teachers, many are not so good. Although there are some similarities, I in my opinion it is a false belief that because you are a good parent you will be a good teacher, likewise it would follow that if you are a good teacher you will not necessarily be a good parent. Where I sit on the parenting scale is yet to be seen and only time will tell. I do hope however that I have learned from some of the mistakes that I have seen other parents make.



Look at the ones who encourage the post it on the net they are making $$$$$$$$$$$$ from it. How much are they contributing to the cause and effect.
Truth or Dare
I don't get your point here, are you saying that by posting this on the net I am contributing to the problem? If so how?


I have an interesting observation regarding the respect issue from today. The local community police officer made a planned visit this morning to speak with a group of students who had been involved in a fair bit of bullying and fighting both inside school and within the community after/outside of school. Many of these kids are on a new program of organised play (sport) at recess and lunch to stop them from roaming the school and getting themselves into trouble. They told the officer about this and asked if he would come and play cricket with them on Friday at lunch time. He said he would love to do that as it is better to visit for a good reason and if they stayed out of trouble till Friday he would come. Despite our best efforts to redirect these kids throughout the day and remind them of the Friday cricket game, four of the ten were suspended before the final siren. Although they had towed the line in front of the officer, their attitude for the rest of the day was "I don't care, who wants to play cricket with him anyway?" As mentioned before it is not just teachers who cop this but nurses, doctors, the police and anyone else who works with children.

I too don't have an answer but it is a good discussion.

PS, was spat on (in the eye:~) hit and kicked again today:rolleyes:

[munruben]

I too don't have an answer but it is a good discussion.
It's an excellent topic and gives us all a chance to put in our bit.
I sympathize with teachers and take my hat off to them for the job they do and it's good to know they think enough of the kids to want to try and solve the problem. I think we all wish there was an easy solution to the problem. We don't know the answers but if we help even a few kids with a discussion such as this, then it's been worth it.

[wheelinround]

That is correct wheelin, but I am not sure what relevance this has. I have met many parents who have retrained to become teachers, many are good teachers, many are not so good. Although there are some similarities, I in my opinion it is a false belief that because you are a good parent you will be a good teacher, likewise it would follow that if you are a good teacher you will not necessarily be a good parent. Where I sit on the parenting scale is yet to be seen and only time will tell. I do hope however that I have learned from some of the mistakes that I have seen other parents make.Finaly I found the wrap quote thing.:doh:

Well Burnsy I believe you answered your own question here. By saying you have no idea what sort of parent you will be (yet to be seen). That all you can hope for is learning from others and lessons you have gleened.
There is no rule book for parenting many have been written all have failed few have success (just read the bible its full of it even Christ was a rebel) (I am not preaching here just pointing out how far back it goes).
Regard in future all those parents you regard as usless parents with the thought that they to are learning each and every day just as the children you teach do and yourself.

I for many years saw kids and teachers adults treating their kids I also gleened lifes lessons. I also failed but I have 3 great kids 26 28 30 yrs. NOT perfect I am proud to call them mine. Taught to stand on their own two feet, believe in life and respect to give respect where it is given. To understand that no one is perfect yet we all strive to be, not in someone elses eyes but in our own.



I don't get your point here, are you saying that by posting this on the net I am contributing to the problem? If so how? No not you Burnsy :no: just look where kids get the idea from media the net chat rooms. We as kids used to do this in parks, behind the toilet blocks, playing games. Who owns media, who owns the sites they are putting the stuff up on, the same people who are the largest share holders the money magnets.


I have an interesting observation regarding the respect issue from today. The local community police officer made a planned visit this morning to speak with a group of students who had been involved in a fair bit of bullying and fighting both inside school and within the community after/outside of school. Many of these kids are on a new program of organised play (sport) at recess and lunch to stop them from roaming the school and getting themselves into trouble. They told the officer about this and asked if he would come and play cricket with them on Friday at lunch time. He said he would love to do that as it is better to visit for a good reason and if they stayed out of trouble till Friday he would come. Despite our best efforts to redirect these kids throughout the day and remind them of the Friday cricket game, four of the ten were suspended before the final siren. Although they had towed the line in front of the officer, their attitude for the rest of the day was "I don't care, who wants to play cricket with him anyway?" As mentioned before it is not just teachers who cop this but nurses, doctors, the police and anyone else who works with children. So you all put the peasure on eh didn't trust them to make it to Friday, kept them busy so much so they may have got the shytes with it all. No different to you or I under stress related time frames and we are older.


I too don't have an answer but it is a good discussion. Hail Hail parents have said the same thing for centuries its all a game "WHO's TOP DOG"


PS, was spat on (in the eye:~) hit and kicked again today:rolleyes: Unfortunatley you can't relate the full circumstances.

This I don't think should happen to anyone teacher nurse parent (bus/coach driver I had my share of it too) not just by kids adults, woman & men in suits.

nah was going to relate something but nope.

It has become a top discussion I agree lest hope its not keepig you from your WOODWORK top priority and worthy stress relief for us all.

[Carry Pine]

quote: Many of these kids are on a new program of organised play (sport) at recess and lunch to stop them from roaming the school and getting themselves into trouble. (Burnsy)

Burnsy, we have this too- called 'supervised play'. It's for kids who don't know how to play games with each other. And how sad is that? We have about 20 out of a school of 360. Organised and monitored by teacher's aides and the executive takes overall responsibility. We show them how to play checkers (draughts for you old folks like me) and even chess. They also play structured ball games and gross motor stuff. Interesting that they have never been taught checkers before! We also play simple card games where you need to take turns- another learning experience.

Carry Pine

[wheelinround]

quote: Many of these kids are on a new program of organised play (sport) at recess and lunch to stop them from roaming the school and getting themselves into trouble. (Burnsy)

Burnsy, we have this too- called 'supervised play'. It's for kids who don't know how to play games with each other. And how sad is that? We have about 20 out of a school of 360. Organised and monitored by teacher's aides and the executive takes overall responsibility. We show them how to play checkers (draughts for you old folks like me) and even chess. They also play structured ball games and gross motor stuff. Interesting that they have never been taught checkers before! We also play simple card games where you need to take turns- another learning experience.

Carry Pine

This is not personal its the program I am knocking who ever thought it up needs to open their minds more.

I find it shame that people seem to think everyone has to be a part of a team, supervised, not left to have time to themselves to think things through. Yes this can result in major problems. How often do adults need time alone adults are still somebodies kids.
If your teaching in a rual comunity what time do your kids get up do they have chores to do, sibblings to help get ready while mum n dad are off working the farm at work or just got home from it.

My cousins lived 50 minutes sorry (it was 50 mins when I drove the run years later) 1 1/2 hrs by bus from their high school. They had to be up and at the bus stop by 7am this was after crossing the river by punt. I when driving country kids started one run at 6.30am first pick up. same travel time home. then all these kids had chores to do.
No time to themselves, always part of a family get in get it done.
Ever tried a regeneration period at school.

[Burnsy]

Burnsy, we have this too- called 'supervised play'. It's for kids who don't know how to play games with each other. And how sad is that? We have about 20 out of a school of 360. Organised and monitored by teacher's aides and the executive takes overall responsibility. We show them how to play checkers (draughts for you old folks like me) and even chess. They also play structured ball games and gross motor stuff. Interesting that they have never been taught checkers before! We also play simple card games where you need to take turns- another learning experience.

Carry Pine

Sad isn't it that these kids lack the ability to interact socially with each other in a positive way, it seems all to common. If left to their own devices these kids roam in a pack targeting others as a form of amusement. They are all capable at sports and enjoy playing it but without being told that is the only option they have they will not go out and play of their own accord. However, the really sad thing is, they are all mates but even when they play a game of cricket together they end up arguing and fighting. The whole ideal of fair play and sportsmanship is just lost on them and they will generally choose to take the bat and leave rather than hand it over to the next batter quickly so they can try and get them out so that they may have another bat:rolleyes: They need an adult constantly present to tell them they are out or it is someone elses turn (like the computer does when they loose) and even then they will argue or sulk.

Another nail driven in by to much time spent in front of the game console and not enough actually socialising:((. When I ask many of the boys in my class what they got up to over the weekend they will say they went to a friends, or such and such came over to play. When I ask what did they do? The answer is played X-Box 9 times out of ten. This hardly rates as playing as far as I am concerned - sitting together in front of a screen for three hours but not speaking or interacting with each other outside of what is happening within the game.

[wheelinround]

Sad isn't it that these kids lack the ability to interact socially with each other in a positive way, it seems all to common. If left to their own devices these kids roam in a pack targeting others as a form of amusement. They are all capable at sports and enjoy playing it but without being told that is the only option they have they will not go out and play of their own accord. However, the really sad thing is, they are all mates but even when they play a game of cricket together they end up arguing and fighting. The whole ideal of fair play and sportsmanship is just lost on them and they will generally choose to take the bat and leave rather than hand it over to the next batter quickly so they can try and get them out so that they may have another bat:rolleyes: They need an adult constantly present to tell them they are out or it is someone elses turn (like the computer does when they loose) and even then they will argue or sulk.1st sentance why do they have to interact socially in a positive way:?
Did you when you were at school were you forced to be part of a group/click/gang/team:? The difference betwen a Gang and team is what exactly..........just the term used one dorogatory. Look at any sport these days one or two are the chosen ones the rest are their only to fill the gaps. News reports of player NOT Team work. It starts at school by teachers they pick the special ones out they make them stand out give them status. Weekend sports are no different it takes all players to get the points not just one person.


Another nail driven in by to much time spent in front of the game console and not enough actually socialising:((. When I ask many of the boys in my class what they got up to over the weekend they will say they went to a friends, or such and such came over to play. When I ask what did they do? The answer is played X-Box 9 times out of ten. This hardly rates as playing as far as I am concerned - sitting together in front of a screen for three hours but not speaking or interacting with each other outside of what is happening within the game.Your doing exactly the same aren't you Burnsy in this forum. kids are also even if its online gaming. Wwe se members be ridiculed, poked fun at it even gets serious your still somebodies KID playing with a computer. Your not soicalising by doing this HOW??:doh:
Chat rooms are not socialising HOW??
Kids playing games on machines is not learning socialising HOW??
When kids get together they talk games, what they did the night before, who they chatted to the night before how they won.
Adults sit and watch TV use the computer whats the difference:roll:.

You go to your shed and oh NO your anti social away from the wife/family/freinds:o then you come and brag show off get social in the new world the whole world.

[echnidna]

We seem to have a society that must apportion blame

rather than teach people how to overcome and avoid failures.

So all blame should obviously be that of society itself.

and Punishment should fit the crime

Publicly humiliate the ratbags and watch nonsence dissipate very rapidly

A set of stocks should be installed and used in every school yard and shopping mall

[Gingermick]

We seem to have a society that must apportion blame

Well it's gotta be someones fault if there are soooo many laws that have the effect of removing a persons responsibility and placing it on someone else. (re young idiot leans out of train to grafitti and gets injured and sues train company)

[wheelinround]

Well it's gotta be someones fault if there are soooo many laws that have the effect of removing a persons responsibility and placing it on someone else. (re young idiot leans out of train to grafitti and gets injured and sues train company)

WOW thats right it is someones fault usuallt the person or persons involved.

One persons point of view is not maybe the truth or facts.

Just heading in the direction of becoming another USA like the fellow who owned a brand new Motor Home trundeling down the Highway he hit cruise control got out the drivers seat to go make a coffee sued the company because they didn't explain about cruise control and dangers of getting out the seat whilest in motion.:doh:

[wheelinround]

Listening to a younger generation radio station this morning, I do this occassionally FBI radio http://www.fbiradio.com/content.php/3.html
I heard this following announcement
New TAFE ads commence this week

<!-- NEWS START --> <small>25 September 2007</small>
<small>By Diane Hague
Media and Communicatons Officer</small><!--ENDCONTENT--> <!--STARTCONTENT--> Commencing this week is a new round of TAFE advertising on television, radio and strip ads in the Sun-Herald.

The 'TAFE is the answer' tv ad will run on regional television for two weeks. A new radio ad will be broadcast on NOVA for three weeks and a strip ad will be published in the Sun-Herald on 30 September, 7 October and 14 October.
The advertising will refer to the AEU's national TAFE claim, that it will take an extra $470 million in 2008, minimum, to fund TAFE to address Australia's skills crisis.
The radio ad states:
"Australia's skills shortage is a national crisis.
We've got jobs, no-one to fill them
Want a future for our children
We've got to train them up and skill them.
TAFE is the answer
We can start with education
Build on a strong foundation
To become a clever nation.
TAFE is the answer
It'll take an extra $470 million in 2008 - minimum
TAFE is the answer."
Given the comments of the Federal Minister for Vocational and Further Education, Andrew Robb, today, that the Federal government if re-elected, would tie future funding to the imposition of a WorkChoices style agenda, including Australian Workplace Agreements; more autonomy for Institutes and the threat of directing funding to private providers to force change, the advertising campaign is timely.
TAFE has been starved of funding by the Federal government and this lack of funding is directly related to Australia's skills crisis.
<!--ENDCONTENT-->
Download File


The TAFE radio ad (http://www.nswtf.org.au/media/tafe/files/20070925_ads.mp3) <small>[ sound ]</small>
For further information

<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr> <td align="right" valign="top">Contact</td> <td valign="top"> : </td> <td valign="top">Diane Hague</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right" valign="top">Phone</td> <td valign="top"> : </td> <td valign="top">02 92172100</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="right" valign="top">Email</td> <td valign="top"> : </td> <td valign="top">[email protected]</td></tr></tbody></table>

This by the same institution who demands their members have everything paid for which means they get it FREE all their tuition on going courses education etc.

And we ask where do they get it from. Our Children.

Listen to the radio station you'll be surprised at what our kids are listening too.

Ray

[astrid]

I banned commercial tv
my kids are 14 (girl) 10 (boy)
I am seriously worried about my daughter, we're likk saffi and edina (Ab Fab)
she gets embarrassed if i wear a lowish top etc
sometimes its just nature, somtimes nurture or just genes
I am happy that they hate mac d's
prefer chip shop burgers
we arnt rich or poor but I think before i let them do stuff
I think a lot has to do with the strengh of the child to resist peer pressure.
my girl is shy but not weak, this caused probs in primary but not in secndary.
the boys think shes a great mate and the barbie girls leave her alone.

my son is a cheerful bandit!!
love my kids
astrid