Bathroom Floor with 330 mm tiles

[juan]

This one had probably been discussed before but can not find anything in the search.

I propose to tile a 3.5m x 1.95m bathroom floor with 330 mm square tiles and not having used large tiles before am wondering what problems I will have in getting the tiles to go down neatly given the fall. Have only used mosaics on a bathroom floor long time ago and they were easy to get to follow the fall.

My plumber tells me I need 2 floor traps as well as the shower drain as the bathroom is 4.3m long (I will have a bath in a hob). This sounds like an overkill to me.

I wanted to do the floor myself and will lay the concrete floor then screed it to get the fall.

What is the minimum fall I could have to the floor traps? Is 1% fall OK?

I was tossing up whether to put the traps near a side wall instead of in the centre and slope the whole floor towards that wall.

Any advice would be appreciated (except telling me to get a tiler to do it)

[mic-d]

This one had probably been discussed before but can not find anything in the search.

I propose to tile a 3.5m x 1.95m bathroom floor with 330 mm square tiles and not having used large tiles before am wondering what problems I will have in getting the tiles to go down neatly given the fall. Have only used mosaics on a bathroom floor long time ago and they were easy to get to follow the fall.

My plumber tells me I need 2 floor traps as well as the shower drain as the bathroom is 4.3m long (I will have a bath in a hob). This sounds like an overkill to me.

I wanted to do the floor myself and will lay the concrete floor then screed it to get the fall.

What is the minimum fall I could have to the floor traps? Is 1% fall OK?

I was tossing up whether to put the traps near a side wall instead of in the centre and slope the whole floor towards that wall.

Any advice would be appreciated (except telling me to get a tiler to do it)

G'day Juan,
A 1% fall to the floor wastes may give you problems with those tiles. Assuming that you place the waste on the centreline then the best you can do is a 10mm drop over a metre which might be just OK. 5mm over the metre would be OK. If the floor is fully waterproofed and also up the walls to standard then you can screed it flat and just tilt the tiles at the doorway up a few mm's on the adhesive bed. You can do the shower in a diagonal pattern like an upturned pyramid and you can have a fall of up to 20mm to a central waste in a 900x900 cubicle (in fact you can theoretically have any fall you want this way but 10-20mm is OK)
If you search for shower here, there's posts on how to build floors
Cheers
Michael

[juan]

Thanks Michael,

Read a bit on screeding floors to a fall but wondered if the upturned cone approach would work with larger tiles. Would the upturned pyramid work for the main floor as well as the shower set down?

[mic-d]

Thanks Michael,

Read a bit on screeding floors to a fall but wondered if the upturned cone approach would work with larger tiles. Would the upturned pyramid work for the main floor as well as the shower set down?

It's not an upturned cone, if you dish it it will not work. It must be 4 intersecting triangular planes. And it will only work with tiles on the diagonal. If you care to layout the entire room diagonally and be careful of the position of the floor wastes, then you could do this for the floor wastes too. But personally I think it is too much trouble .

Cheers
Michael

[thesupervisor]

you could get one of them new flash floor wastes
they are 50mm wide and about 300 long would be a neat finnish and easy to cut upto

[thesupervisor]

try www.reece.com.au its called a mizuwaste
its under shower cubicles and bath screens

[Dirty Doogie]

Hi Juan,

Looks like you have reached the real fun bit - Not!

I notice in one of the original plans you posted that the largish floor tiles were shown laid diagonally across the room. My thoughts were that you must have had a super experienced tiler lined up.

Personally I would baulk at trying to lay tiles diagonally And try to get multiple ramping profiles to waste outlets using large tiles.

The issue is that where you have two planes in your scree or ramping coming together a large tile just wont sit smoothly over it - and that the steeper the fall to the waste the less the tile is going to bed down -- the usual practise is to cut the tile diagonally along the floor profile.

I think this is what Mic was trying to suggest by saying that you would have problems with a 12mm fall. Not only would you have to cut tiles- but depending on your fall, tile thickness and tile spacing you would have to cut tiles to a bevel edge.

Frankly I'm not sure it would be possible to grade the scree to 2 floor wastes without having cuts in tiles running everywhere - which I suspect would look awful.

Unfortuneately Mic's idea of tilting up the perimeter tile will also result in a cut mark running around the bathroom with a diagonal tile pattern.

I don't think you need 2 floor wastes - not sure why the plumber would suggest that.

I think I would work on the idea of 1 floor waste with a very slight slope to it (5 mm) and the shower base with a 5mm fall (but it will be a steeper slope becuase it is 5 mm over 500 or 600 mm). To keep your diagonal tile pattern you will have to cut the tiles under the position of the shower screen (to hide the cut). One side of the screen the tiles will go down to the shower waste - on the other will be a gentle fall to the floor waste.

To work out where the floor waste and shower waste go you have to get your tiles out and lay them out on site ( no point putting your waste pipe in and finding it comes through 3 tiles that are sloping to somewhere else) - then work out where the showerscreen goes . that would be your high point of the scree.

Oh i bet that has confused you - maybe I better shut up!

Doog

[juan]

Doogie, Thanks a million for your advice. I am starting to have nightmares about the floor tiling ahead. I will see if I can convince the plumber to have only one waste outlet and talk to a tiler. I can still move the floor trap/s before I pour the concrete that is one consolation.

[mic-d]

The issue is that where you have two planes in your scree or ramping coming together a large tile just wont sit smoothly over it - and that the steeper the fall to the waste the less the tile is going to bed down -- the usual practise is to cut the tile diagonally along the floor profile.

I think this is what Mic was trying to suggest by saying that you would have problems with a 12mm fall. Not only would you have to cut tiles- but depending on your fall, tile thickness and tile spacing you would have to cut tiles to a bevel edge.

Frankly I'm not sure it would be possible to grade the scree to 2 floor wastes without having cuts in tiles running everywhere - which I suspect would look awful.

Unfortuneately Mic's idea of tilting up the perimeter tile will also result in a cut mark running around the bathroom with a diagonal tile pattern.
No not if you put in a border of straight run tiles, which looks much nicer than diagonal up to the wall anyway

I don't think you need 2 floor wastes - not sure why the plumber would suggest that.

I think I would work on the idea of 1 floor waste with a very slight slope to it (5 mm) and the shower base with a 5mm fall (but it will be a steeper slope becuase it is 5 mm over 500 or 600 mm). To keep your diagonal tile pattern you will have to cut the tiles under the position of the shower screen (to hide the cut). One side of the screen the tiles will go down to the shower waste - on the other will be a gentle fall to the floor waste.

To work out where the floor waste and shower waste go you have to get your tiles out and lay them out on site ( no point putting your waste pipe in and finding it comes through 3 tiles that are sloping to somewhere else) - then work out where the showerscreen goes . that would be your high point of the scree.

Oh i bet that has confused you - maybe I better shut up!

Doog

Here is a WIP photo of a recent bathroom I did with just such an issue that you want to solve. In photo 1 you can see the cut tiles that will finish up under the shower screen. Right under these cut tiles is an alum angle that is waterproofed in, to prevent water weeping into the general floor mortar. In this bathroom, the perimeter tiles are all at one level except leading up to and across the doorway. These doorway tiles are tilted up ever so slightly on the adhesive bed so they are higher than the floor waste. Now if you create a fall to a waste and dish it (make it conical) then you may have problems with bigger tiles, as I was saying and as Doogie has followed up. But if you do the screed correctly and set out the tiles correctly then you can use tiles of any size you like really. Have a look at photo one shower area as an example. This has a significant fall of 20mm over 450mm to the waste(! this is what the client wished), but the tiles sit beautifully in it with no lippage. Why, because the screed was constructed as a squashed upturned pyramid - you can perhaps see that the major diagonal groutlines in the shower define four triangular planes. within each triangle, the tiles bed perfectly, the groutline defines a change of plane, and at the apex of the pyramid - the lowest point, is positioned the waste. Now if you make your screed for the shower like this, you can have any size tile you please - imagine giant tiles say 1M square - a corner of each tile would fill the triangular planes of the shower, with a cut under the shower screen where the tile returns to the general floor. Just be careful on the setout and slope construction and its pretty easy. But of course the are that has a fall must be laid diagonally or otherwise you are into the problems that doogie outlined. Photo 2 show a shower that was a fall of 15mm in 450mm and 330mm tiles laid diagonally for the shower and square for the rest. Photo 3 was the screed finished for tiling.
Cheers
Michael

[Dirty Doogie]

Hi Mic - What a brilliant idea - the border of tiles - I like it! Oh wait a minute its Juan's bathroom and his decision!

Thanx for clarifying some of the ideas I was trying to express - I began getting confused myself lol!

And very nice scree work in the pics ! :2tsup:

Here is a link to the plan Juan posted and to what I was refering to in my post -- http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=49694&d=1183249620

I couldnt work out how to get 2 floor wastes neatly into that tiling pattern. Also note the shape of the shower. Not being a tiler the scree job would present a challenge for me.

Juan - the fun has started Big time LOL

Doog

[juan]

I like the idea of the tile border a lot and had thought about it but wondered how it would go around the shower.


http://www.woodworkforums.com/attach...4&d=1183249620 (http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=49694&d=1183249620)

Assuming I can convince the plumber tomorrow to only put in one floor waste outlet other than the one in the shower, WHERE SHOULD I PUT IT? I have been reading SA Govt Minister's Specifications

http://dataserver.planning.sa.gov.au/publications/1020p.pdf

and it seems one outlet would suffice but I do not have the standard
(AS 3740 2004 Waterproofing of wet areas within residential buildings) so will have to believe my plumber,

Could i put over near the wall between the WC and the bath and slope the whole floor that way.

This floor tiling is more hassle than knocking down walls.

[mic-d]

Hi Juan, for some reason I cannot open the plan image in your other post, can you reload it here??

Cheers
Michael

[juan]

Here is my original plan showing the tiling on the diagonal in the hope that would make the room looked wider.


55761

Really never gave much thought to the location of the floor waste outlet expecting it to be in the middle.

[mic-d]

Here is my original plan showing the tiling on the diagonal in the hope that would make the room looked wider.


55761

Really never gave much thought to the location of the floor waste outlet expecting it to be in the middle.

Hi Juan, the middle of the room is still the best option for the floor waste. the more you off-centre it the more trouble you'll have with steep falls to waste.

Cheers
Michael

[juan]

Hi Michael,
Thanks for your help I really appreciate it.

I can see what you mean with the shower inverted pyramid and I like the border tiles to the diagonal tiles. Given my tiles will encroach into the door opening I guess the border tiles across the door opening will be wider than the rest around the walls and across the bath.

Are you suggesting I should not have any noticeable fall in the main floor(except a slight rise near the door) and just place the floor outlet in the geometric centre of the tiled floor. Problem is I have not yet chosen the floor tiles and the plumber is coming tomorrow. I was surprised that all 300mm tiles have different sizes (300, 316,330,333 you name it). Would I not need to know the tile size to position the waste outlet as near as possible to the joint in the diagonally laid tiles?

[juan]

Michael sorry for all the silly questions but tiling is a mystery to me.

Does the inverted pyramid work out ok with a shower like the one I have planned with a set down area about 1125mm x 875mm ?

[mic-d]

Michael sorry for all the silly questions but tiling is a mystery to me.

Does the inverted pyramid work out ok with a shower like the one I have planned with a set down area about 1125mm x 875mm ?

Sorry Juan, the method only works in a square cubicle. That will be a tough one with big tiles.

Cheers
Michael

[Dirty Doogie]

Hi Juan - heh heh ! yep now it gets complicated - you really need to know what tiles you are using, what exact shower screen size you want, and then be able to lay them out on site to locate exactly where the waste go.

It might be worth putting the plumber back while you work all this out or at least maybe get him to do other stuff on his visit.

I would be inclined to go with a tilted up border all around with maybe just a very slight slope to the floor waste 5mm and to set the entire shower area floor level but 20 mm lower than the rest of the bathroom. That way the shower waste can go anywhere.

The floor waste needs calculating by laying out tiles - but you could put it roughly where you think the tiles will go and hope! Lol Using border tiles you can actually cheat the pattern of the floor eg move tiles 20 mm or so to one side so they come together around a waste.

[Dirty Doogie]

Woo Hoo - I just learnt how to scribble and draw on other peoples pics! Now I can really cuase mischief LOL!

[juan]

Thanks Doogie / Michael

I will go with the idea of centreing the waste in the main floor and using a border tile around the whole floor. Michael has pointed out that the inverted pyramid would not work with large tiles in the rectangular shower set down so maybe I will look at using one of those MIZU floor grates across the shower inside the set down and just slope the shower floor (1100 x 875) to the grate.
http://www.artplastics.com.au/MizuShowerChannel.asp
What do you think about that idea or would it look crappy?

I will be laying the new concrete floor myself so I have a few days to use my limited plumbing skills do some minor adjustments to the position of the floor waste outlet after the plumber has gone. That will give me time to select the actual floor tiles and lay them out and exactly position the waste in a diagonal tile joint.

Do you think if the whole floor is waterproofed with care that a 5mm fall to the waste is OK?

[Dirty Doogie]

Hi juan - a with a 5mm fall to the floor waste , puddles will still form and hang around ( or be sucked up by a bathmat) - but if you get a lot of water on the floor 5mm is enough to move it toward the waste.

You may want to consider using narrow grout lines and even using special silicone for the grout.

the whole theory behind floor wastes ,as I understand it, is that water should not sit on tiled surfaces for very long and /or that, in an overflow situation, water doesnt run from the wet area out the door to some other area.

I have been told that cement based grouts are designed to suck up small amounts of water but I'm not sure that is the best practise.

In Europe a lot of people have flat tiled floors in bathrooms and use a special sqeegee to rake the water into a waste.

[Dirty Doogie]

The strip shower waste looks ok - in the shower. Not sure about in the floor though. The 900mm looks better me thinx. I've got a similiar thing in my shower - damn stainless steel needs cleaning after every shower though!

[zacnelson]

Hello Juan, I have attached a pic of a shower floor I'm working on. (This was taken before this ensuite was completed so it is lacking grout, silicone, etc, but you'll the idea).

I didn't use the diagonal tiling technique that was exhibited in Mic-D's shower photos, because the rest of the floor does not have diagonal tiles. However, the cuts follow the `inverted pyramid' that I created when I did the sand and cement mortar base, as described by Mic-D. It looks fantastic now that it's finished, I need to take some more photos. I made things a lot easier too by using a square shower grate. I was going to buy one of Mizu shower channels, but they're so expensive! The small one is really pricey, and I also thought the only way it would look good would be to get one long enough to do the entire width of the shower (900mm). The 900mm one was I think well over $600, it's been a while since I did the shopping around. All I remember is it was WAY too much to consider!

I have actually made the aluminium angle sit above the height of the tiles by about 20mm, as you can see in the photo. It is a very confined ensuite, and the shower is very close to the doorway. In my experience of stepless showers, water gets all over the bathroom floor and I find it annoying, and I don't have a floor waste in the ensuite either. I'm very happy with the sleek appearance of the small aluminium hob and it will prevent any puddles in the shower from finding their way into the rest of the ensuite.