Today school system

[SPIRIT]

started helping out in a high school and have found everybody looking like this :((
Teachers look like this :((
The kids look like this :((
The principal looks like this:whip:

where are we doing it wrong

l say bring back the Tech schools ASAP

[munruben]

Talking of faces like this :(( have you ever watched people who play the pokie machines in the clubs, not one of them has a smile on their face.Everyone of them looks like this:((
Maybe they are all teachers.

[Barry Hicks]

Australians DO believe in education, Spirit. A professor earns more money in a year than a professional sportsman can earn in a whole week.

[silentC]

Things haven't changed then. Most of the people at school when I was a kid were like that. Maybe you were the lucky one.

[wheelinround]

Things haven't changed then. Most of the people at school when I was a kid were like that. Maybe you were the lucky one.

I agree silentC

Could it be that regulations have become so overrought (spelling?)

Smiles were only on kids faces when there is a way of getting out of school work.:p
Smiles were only on teachers faces when holidays were coming...... wouldn't you if you got 3 months pay for doing not much.

:? could be for teachers that 3 months holiday and 9 to 3 work hours just is too much to handle, pupil free days, and staff development days.

LOML's many class mates became teachers most have quit, been classified unsuitable, moved interstate to become teachers or stressed out that much they now are on permenant paid leave.

[MrFixIt]

started helping out in a high school and have found everybody looking like this :((
Teachers look like this :((
The kids look like this :((
The principal looks like this:whip:

where are we doing it wrong

TOO MANY changes, too may *new* ideas that DON'T work etc, etc.

The MOST important teaching IS STILL the three R's, reading 'riting and 'rithmetic. If these subjects are well taught, the rest follows so easily. However, today there are sooo many obtuse courses within the curriculum, that I often wonder how many are relevent to today's kids.

It is a shame that sooo many kids cannot do BASIC mental arithmetic. It is also a shame that sooo many cannot spell or construct a grammatically correct sentence. :C (I hoep I did'nt maake two meni misteaks hear :U )

Haven't you noticed how easy it is to confuse a checkout operator by offering additional money AFTER the cash register has calculated the change!

Can you imagine how BAD written communications will be with the rise of SMS messaging? I know someone that recieved a CV written in the same abreviations as those used in SMS messages. Hmmm? that applicant did NOT get the job!



l say bring back the Tech schools ASAP

YESSSSS! I agree. I recieved a great education in Technical College in Liverpool UK. The education, though having a bias toward technical training in manual trades, was STILL a strong proponent for the basics, ie English and Maths. There were also other "normal" subjects such as language (French), art, music, history and Geography.

I honestly believe that I had a better education in my day than those kids of today. I think there is probably too much pressure to learn too much that is not necessarily appropriate and therefore the absorption of the *basics* is diminished.

Discipline and respect is required of students to both their parents and teachers. This is another lost trait, there is no discipline these days.

What a farce it is to have pupil free days :o :doh: WHat they're saying is a NO EDUCATION DAY, that's a joke. Kids are NOT getting a good enough education as it is, so why waste time by giving them another day OFF! :~

[SPIRIT]

Mate, it was like kids gaurding thier step ,you drive past in your car and the look you get.
l did it hard at school with my great spelling and all and to boot l was one of the worst fighters in a low ecernomic area

Munruben maybe we are makeing the new breed of pokie players:(

barry wish l was good at basketball like wongo

Silent,C schools seem to be shutting down with hard kids ,they kick them out in a form of herassment and suspention,so they all end up in one school ,where if each school worked on it the load wouldn't as great on the system

Wheelinaround its the hardest job l have come a cross ,give teachers more money ,and it will improve the teachers ,,,l am not a teacher by the way

[SPIRIT]

TOO MANY changes, too may *new* ideas that DON'T work etc, etc.

The MOST important teaching IS STILL the three R's, reading 'riting and 'rithmetic. If these subjects are well taught, the rest follows so easily. However, today there are sooo many obtuse courses within the curriculum, that I often wonder how many are relevent to today's kids.

It is a shame that sooo many kids cannot do BASIC mental arithmetic. It is also a shame that sooo many cannot spell or construct a grammatically correct sentence. :C (I hoep I did'nt maake two meni misteaks hear :U )

Haven't you noticed how easy it is to confuse a checkout operator by offering additional money AFTER the cash register has calculated the change!

Can you imagine how BAD written communications will be with the rise of SMS messaging? I know someone that recieved a CV written in the same abreviations as those used in SMS messages. Hmmm? that applicant did NOT get the job!


I honestly believe that I had a better education in my day than those kids of today. I think there is probably too much pressure to learn too much that is not necessarily appropriate and therefore the absorption of the *basics* is diminished.

understanding and respect is required of students to both their parents and teachers. This is another lost trait, there is no understanding these days.

What a farce it is to have pupil free days :o :doh: WHat they're saying is a NO EDUCATION DAY, that's a joke. Kids are NOT getting a good enough education as it is, so why waste time by giving them another day OFF! :~THE 3Rs what if you just can not keep up ,as l couldn't,where do you fit in

AND YOU SHOULD NOT MAKE FUN OF SOMEBODY JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT AS SMART AS YOU :(( its called bullying

yes to much pressure for some,some maybe thinking about, are they going to sleeping on the street tonight

changed one word twice

9 to 3 that is a joke and when do we keep them trained up to teach our kids :~

bring back tech schools as soon we get peaple to teach in them

so there

[Gingermick]

9 to 3 work hours .......pupil free days,

My parents were both teachers so I can tell you that teaching is not a 9-3 job. My mother was always marking assignments and preparing class plans and doing heaps of other things at home. Dad was deputy principal so he was always home later and forever organising things.
As well as that, teaching is the most important job in our nation. Fark the guviment, if we dont have well educated children to do all the jobs in the future we will all be fwarked.

[SPIRIT]

My parents were both teachers so I can tell you that teaching is not a 9-3 job. My mother was always marking assignments and preparing class plans and doing heaps of other things at home. Dad was deputy principal so he was always home later and forever organising things.
As well as that, teaching is the most important job in our nation. Fark the guviment, if we dont have well educated children to do all the jobs in the future we will all be fwarked.:clap:well said my good man,well said

[Wood Butcher]

If you want the right to criticise teachers, then you try doing the study and then the paperwork devising work programs and dealing with kids that don't want to be there and pleasing all of the regulations and parents..........

I am sick of people bagging out teachers when they have no idea what teachers do.

I make a rule that in any class I take that the students are to first have a good time and then learn something (and they do work together). If you can make them enjoy being there than they are more likely to learn. Not every teacher is the same, but that is my rule.

[Wood Butcher]

What a farce it is to have pupil free days :o :doh: WHat they're saying is a NO EDUCATION DAY, that's a joke. Kids are NOT getting a good enough education as it is, so why waste time by giving them another day OFF! :~

There is a hell of a lot of work that is needed to be done on those days and four a year barely allows enough time to get it done! :((

[Daddles]

The MOST important teaching IS STILL the three R's, reading 'riting and 'rithmetic. If these subjects are well taught, the rest follows so easily. However, today there are sooo many obtuse courses within the curriculum, that I often wonder how many are relevent to today's kids.

Do you have anything to do with modern kids and their learning? Quite frankly sunshine, as a father of a 14 year old and a 6 year old, one in a public high school and one in a private primary school, I can say that you've got no idea. None at all. Yes, there is a lot of other stuff that is taught, but the kids of today are far better educated than you were. The basics, the 'three R's' as you like to refer to, probably not realising the appalling misuse of the language in doing so, are well taught along with a lot of other stuff you probably have no concept of.

Leave the teachers alone. They've got a bloody hard job with an overly full curriculum and they're doing a grand job. Anyone who thinks the 'basics' aren't being taught is not only out of touch, but utterly unaware of the appalling use of the language among the middle aged and older members of society, as evidenced by this forum.

Richard

[silentC]

My missus recently did a semester of tuting at a local uni campus. The tutes were 3 hours once a week. She spent at least 10 hours a week preparing for them, marking assignments, answering emails and doing administration. The hourly rate seemed fantastic on the face of it but she ended up working for less than the minimum wage.

[SPIRIT]

So it seems, that teachers do a good hard thankless job ,my word they do,
so where is it going wrong ,where should the eduction system be heading,

to fit understanding into a teachers day the system needs a over haul

so which modle do we follow ,????

[bitingmidge]

The frowns've been trained onto the kids over half a century.

I know this to be a fact. I never learnt to count high enough to tell you how many times I was flogged or tossed out of a classroom for making people laugh.

Any wonder no-one's game any more!

Cheers,

P
:D :D :D

[Gingermick]

I spent the whole of year 8 mathematics class sitting on a chair facing the back wall. Getting duster thrown at me every now and again. Twas good fun riling the old bugger:D

[Sebastiaan56]

The frowns've been trained onto the kids over half a century.

I know this to be a fact. I never learnt to count high enough to tell you how many times I was flogged or tossed out of a classroom for making people laugh.

Any wonder no-one's game any more!


I once got the doorknob with a spitball from 5 rows back, best shot of my life, cost me six lots of the cane but ah well...

My outlaws were teachers. They look at the modern system and tell me that apart from a few fashion items directed by yet another minister, nothing has changed. That said I must say where my boys go is a really bluddy good school. The reason, lots of variety and dedicated teaching staff. Oh, and there is only 180 kids in the school, none of this economies of scale crap,

Sebastiaan

[Bleedin Thumb]

A see a fair few schools for work and I can tell you each one has its own vibe. Some - everyones happy and all is well , others- as you describe.

It is not school culture in general just the individual school. It sounds like the school you metioned needs a makeover or the principle needs Prozac.:)

[wheelinround]

I guess putting teachers all in the same bunch is like putting disabled in the same bunch.

My best freinds wife is a teacher special ed for deaf kids recenlty she sought my help for stuff she couldn't do and I'd do it again same No Charge. State gumnt should be thankfull professional would have charged 4 figure's.

I saw my own school days, then my 3 kids, plus teachers while I was working some whom I spent a week with. I didn't like what I saw when away, this I almost called headmasters & parents on a few occassions, due to teacher abuse of power. It would have meant my job so in the end I spoke up on the spot to let them know someone was watching and I was a parent. Asking how would they react to their children being treat that way. I got to see this once when a teacher's child was being balled out in front of them what a reaction same as any parent would for the minor thing the kid did.

The best teachers are usually those who have either time out working elsewhere or tradies who have converted and teach highschool I had 3 of the best there metal n woodies at kingsgove & Puncbowl. TAFE teachers who have had some years of experience in the work place are great also.

I can never see why teachers spend so much time preparing work loads when the 3r's have been the same for generations, many teachers still walk in and say open to chapter and do it, marking well thats part of the job requirements if they don't wanbt to do it then go get another job. In my job I had to prepare commentary quite often for somewhere new but once I had done that all I had to do was add or subtract to it occasionaly.......yeh and like teachers throw in a bit of bull.

I and my kids have had some great teachers in our lives but it's the bad ones who make the biggest mark,. Ihad a number of teachers who were alcho's, druggies, off with the faries. The wose thing I see with teachers is character assassignation, the biggest problem, staff rooms become the killer of fine kids.

Teachers are unique I support the good ones whole heartedly.:2tsup::2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

[SPIRIT]

SO YES THE TEACHER ARE A GOOD LOT, I AGREE
so how come schools are turning out so many kids not ajusted to life in the 21st century,one child falling though the gaps is bad ,how many have to slip though before the crim rate rises to a unmanagable level
is that then there will me some real money put back into eduction

[SPIRIT]

A see a fair few schools for work and I can tell you each one has its own vibe. Some - everyones happy and all is well , others- as you describe.

It is not school culture in general just the individual school. It sounds like the school you metioned needs a makeover or the principle needs Prozac.:)
l also see a few schools for work do you find the lower eco area have sadder faces:(

[wheelinround]

SO YES THE TEACHER ARE A GOOD LOT, I AGREE
so how come schools are turning out so many kids not ajusted to life in the 21st century,one child falling though the gaps is bad ,how many have to slip though before the crim rate rises to a unmanagable level
is that then were will me some real money put back into eduction

Not sure if I agree with "teachers are a good lot"
Teachers could be teaching them crime is the biggest pay packet just look at B Gates stole our souls.

[Wood Butcher]

so how come schools are turning out so many kids not ajusted to life in the 21st century,one child falling though the gaps is bad ,how many have to slip though before the crim rate rises to a unmanagable levelYes socioeconomic societal levels have a lot to do with it, and if you spend the time there are hundreds of academic articles about it. Also, I believe that the parents have a lot to do with the child's attitude towards school. There are parents that spend a lot of time making themselves interested in their child's education and generally these children do well.Then you get parents that don't have the same interest and the child's scholastic enthusiasm wanes.
There are other reasons though, this is not the sole reasons. I have textbooks here 2 inchs thick that are solely devoted to the psychology of adolescents and the reasons behind their thinking. There are many reasons and the teachers do play a small part in this, but it is an unjustified statement to say that it is the teachers fault!

[SPIRIT]

seems to me that some kids just can not take things in the normal way ,working from a black bourd ,sorry white bourd and most kids mainly boys between 13 and 16 can't think at all there is way to much stuff going on in thier head other than school work
maybe at this age they should take time off school and work under a mentor and come back when they are ready to learn.:?

[Sebastiaan56]

seems to me that some kids just can not take things in the normal way ,working from a black bourd ,sorry white bourd and most kids mainly boys between 13 and 16 can't think at all there is way to much stuff going on in thier head other than school work
maybe at this age they should take time off school and work under a mentor and come back when they are ready to learn.

I think this is very sensible, have a greenie. Brain size shrinks during adolesence, but its when the greatest pressure for marks, future, careers, etc are dumped on the poor kids. For me adolescence was a time of full on rebellion, only got a bit better in my late 20's.

The acid question "apart from socialisation and perhaps basic numeracy and literacy how much did you learn that you couldnt have learned elsehere?"

I always hated school, still do I suppose,

Sebastiaan

[Bob38S]

Hmmmmmmmm, think about it

If you can read this...

If you can comprehend this...

If you can reply to this...


Somewhere along the line,

perhaps, you should consider,

"Thanking a teacher"

[wheelinround]

Yes socioeconomic societal levels have a lot to do with it, and if you spend the time there are hundreds of academic articles about it. Also, I believe that the parents have a lot to do with the child's attitude towards school. There are parents that spend a lot of time making themselves interested in their child's education and generally these children do well.Then you get parents that don't have the same interest and the child's scholastic enthusiasm wanes.
There are other reasons though, this is not the sole reasons. I have textbooks here 2 inchs thick that are solely devoted to the psychology of adolescents and the reasons behind their thinking. There are many reasons and the teachers do play a small part in this, but it is an unjustified statement to say that it is the teachers fault!


This is so true socio-economic has a great deal to do with it.
It means the blinkers handed out by parents from the uppercrust are much bigger,just look at todays roll models of the lime light grabbers.

Teachers have more respect generally for higher income brackets and cirtain proffessions.I have seen a number of teachers put in their place by self made parents, seeing many lower socio-economic's rise to heights beyond teachers.

While the finger is always pointed at those with less, the general hob knob is getting away with much more illegal stuff. Of late a judge who didn't want to admit he'd broke the traffic laws, a number of company directors all from the right side of town who are now serving jail terms for a number of broken laws. A Premier who was working directly for a major corperation, an oppostition leader who since being a kid was just one step away from the law due to his temper. law breakers come from all walks of life.

I have my grandparents (two of which were from the right side of the track but turfed out from their biggotted famlies) aunts uncles mother and father to thank for reading writting and comprehension because they all taught me there is more than one way to interperet anything.

[Bleedin Thumb]

Nah I don't buy that socio economic stuff (besides a lack of funding for most public schools) the "vibe" of the school is dependant on the internal culture that prevails. This has more to do with the management of the school and the attitude of the teachers just like any other work place.

Kids can be just as miserable going to Toff's Grammar, its just that the grammar school has better resources and attracts better staff I guess.

I think it is wrong to tar all public schools in low socio-economic areas with the same brush, some I'm sure are fantastic, vibrant and fun places producing well ballance young adults - I wish my parents sent me to one of them.:C :doh:


EDIT and Bob - Thank a teacher..... thats taking things too far!

[Gingermick]

Teaching is a stressful, woefully paid job. They deserve more thanks.
I'll thank mine.
If it wasn't for my teachers I would have been a drop out, no hoper, druggie, scumbag, criminal.

Actually, that sounds like a cross between a politician and an advertising guru called siiimon.

[Sebastiaan56]

Teaching is a stressful, woefully paid job. They deserve more thanks.
I'll thank mine.

So are most service professions, Nursing is another example. High levels of ed required treated like manure. Another example of our governments leading by demonstrating how to do it,

Sebastiaan

[bitingmidge]

Kids are miserable because they have to waste so much time at school when they could be off earning a living.

Give 'em some competition to get out into the workplace at 15 instead of wasting their lives stooging around till the end of year 12 and you'd be surprised at how the demeanour would change.

I'm not anti-education, but I am anti and education system that for no good reason keeps kids who don't want to learn in it's clutches for waaaayyy too long.

In our family, two sons-in-law provide stark examples of how this doesn't work. Neither are particularly academically inclined, both are in their late 20's.

One left school at 15 and did an apprenticeship, he's had twelve years work experience in his trade since finishing his time, including a swag as a supervisor, and is now experienced and ready to take the plunge into his own business.

The other, who is no less skilled or intelligent, was offered an apprenticeship, but was "forced" to go back to school to complete year 12. Not wanting to be there, he wasted two years, and left with an attitude that made it difficult to find meaningful work.

He's currently in his second year of an adult apprenticeship, and is going great guns, having a real direction to follow for the first time, just ten years behind where he could have been if it wasn't for this insane pressure to continue up a dry gully.

It's not helping literacy rates, I've never seen anyone who was taught to read in year 12!

Education is a sentence for those that do not see it as a priviledge.

Cheers,

P

[Bleedin Thumb]

If it wasn't for my teachers I would have been a drop out, no hoper, druggie, scumbag, criminal.

.


It was the teachers that made me a drop out, no hoper, druggie..... I blame the scumbag, criminal part on me mum!:wink:

[silentC]

having a real direction to follow for the first time
That was always my problem. Could've done anything really, but couldn't decide. At 16 I decided I would leave school and go and work for my Dad, maybe take on an apprenticeship as a sheetmetal worker. Then my uncle, who is only 9 years older than me, talked me into staying at school and doing the HSC. Because I wasn't really committed to anything, I just stayed because that was the easiest thing to do. I put nothing into my studies and scraped through by the skin of my teeth. I spent the next 7 years working various semi-skilled jobs, mostly in the building industry.Then one day I met a girl and her flat mate worked for a bank as an IT person (it wasn't called IT then though). She told me how much he earned, so I thought "that's the job for me". I applied for a job with one of the banks and they trained me up as a programmer. Of course I gave them the flick after a few years (8) and went out contracting.

The point of all this is that I hadn't a clue what I wanted to do back then. Staying at school just prolonged the decision. I just couldn't get excited about anything academic. None of the trades grabbed me. I think I was meant to be rich, except someone forgot to give me the money.

So here I am, not really qualified to do anything, well OK I have a degree in IT but that's worth less than a sparky's ticket! If this job ever dries up, I have no idea what I would do but it would probably not involve me sitting on my backside all day. But then the missus would have to go out to work and we'd be better off because if the two of us each made half what I earn now, we'd save thousands of dollars in tax each month.

Now, there's a thought....

[Gingermick]

Well I went to school, then uni, did the first two years of a B engineering then decided that I'd like a break. So I decided to take on a very hard lifestyle. It taught me heaps about myself and led me to serious trouble, both legally and physically.
It only took a fall from 8m onto my head on concrete to jolt me out of it and I decided that being a productive member of society was not only acheivable but laudable (to myself)
Though it sheets me a bit when I think that I coulda bin earning what I get now 10 years ago. :(

[Gingermick]

we'd save thousands of dollars in tax each month..

Making a saving on tax and not paying as much aren't exactly the same thing though are they:?

[silentC]

Well, we would both get the tax free threshold, and some of the bit that I earn that she would be earning instead is taxed at the top marginal rate. So if I could cut that bit out of my pay and have her earning it and paying tax at the lower rate, we would be better off.

[Gingermick]

Now, I just rushed in there thinking something and blurted it out without giving it full thought. I must be one of those idiots with really high IQ then:oo:

but more likely the dill who doesn't read the whole bloomin question or statement whatever it may be.:B

[silentC]

Join the club!

[wheelinround]

Nah I don't buy that socio economic stuff (besides a lack of funding for most public schools) the "vibe" of the school is dependant on the internal culture that prevails. This has more to do with the management of the school and the attitude of the teachers just like any other work place.

Kids can be just as miserable going to Toff's Grammar, its just that the grammar school has better resources and attracts better staff I guess.

I think it is wrong to tar all public schools in low socio-economic areas with the same brush, some I'm sure are fantastic, vibrant and fun places producing well ballance young adults - I wish my parents sent me to one of them.:C :doh:


EDIT and Bob - Thank a teacher..... thats taking things too far!

Late last year the media did a round up of school bank accounts totalling close to $10 million the largest wasn't a toff school but government selective followed by many public.
So why aren't the kids getting the benifits of the funds the intrest alone could be used .
Why are parents still being sucked in by calls for donations, fetes (this is great morale and community booster).

Life after school is what you make it after all Australia is a free country..........:no:

[SPIRIT]

Nah I don't buy that socio economic stuff (besides a lack of funding for most public schools) the "vibe" of the school is dependant on the internal culture that prevails. This has more to do with the management of the school and the attitude of the teachers just like any other work place.

Kids can be just as miserable going to Toff's Grammar, its just that the grammar school has better resources and attracts better staff I guess.

I think it is wrong to tar all public schools in low socio-economic areas with the same brush, some I'm sure are fantastic, vibrant and fun places producing well ballance young adults - I wish my parents sent me to one of them.:C :doh:EDIT and Bob - Thank a teacher..... thats taking things too far!
When my little girl was heading of to high school ,we spent a bit of time picking a school that would best fit well with my kids ,we looked at Privit schools ,luckerly we found a great public school that fitted all our needs .The history of this schools is that they cranked down on the school, like 0 tolerance,the teacher were also put though the same thing by the head marster.My little angle is stait A's kid with cutting wit that pisses some people off ,:doh: so no bad kid's they all were kicked out ,the bar set a bit hight acerdemicly ,Great for me but all them bad kid were do they go ?to the lower eco area ,worse your kid is more it is going cost to get them the best education you can get for you child

:C

[SPIRIT]

l hated some parts of school ,as many of you all know l cant spell
l sucked it up until l got a motor mechinic apprentiship.There l met a great man, Ram by name and nature he would say ,,:) He was the first person to show me that l wasn't dumb ,from then on it was hard to stop me, :U

The school system still has trouble dealing with anyone that fits outside the square


somebody has to teach life skills at schools waiting until they leave school to learn this skill is dangeress

[Bleedin Thumb]

Late last year the media did a round up of school bank accounts totalling close to $10 million the largest wasn't a toff school but government selective followed by many public.
So why aren't the kids getting the benifits of the funds the intrest alone could be used .
Why are parents still being sucked in by calls for donations, fetes (this is great morale and community booster).

Life after school is what you make it after all Australia is a free country..........:no:


Bit of a hard one that...just because a school has funds in the bank doesn't mean that the funds aren't allocated to future upgrades but on the other hand they do like to cry poor but when you do work for them suddenly more funds miraculously become available.

If you want to really see whats going on go for a wander through a private school like Kings or Cranbrook and smell the money.

Not only do these schools charge the parents ..(I'm guessing here) $10k? a term but they also get more money from the government (your tax) than is allocated to public schools.........

However as I said before just because a school is well resourced doesn't mean the kids are any happier, mind you the promise of the Ferrari upon graduation may just put a smile on your face:wink:

[SPIRIT]

However as I said before just because a school is well resourced doesn't mean the kids are any happier, mind you the promise of the Ferrari upon graduation may just put a smile on your face:wink:are you telling me that you would be just has happy to sit on a old car seat and watch telly or a nice recliner that can give you massage and waaaarrrrrrrmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm (sorry got side tracked )to your body heat :U

crap

[Bleedin Thumb]

Hate to tell you this little secret Spirit.......money doesn't have anything to do with happiness.

Except perhaps that if you believe money buys you happiness then you will be unhappy if you don't have enough...with enough always being any amount more than you what you have...

[SPIRIT]

Hate to tell you this little secret Spirit.......money doesn't have anything to do with happiness.

Except perhaps that if you believe money buys you happiness then you will be unhappy if you don't have enough...with enough always being any amount more than you what you have...What l believe is you must try your best at being happy,
*work hard to gain the respect other people in your life
*find a partner that will help you get to you to your shared goals
*you have to try your best to raise and teach your children to the best of you abilety for the road ahead of them (this should be done by example)

what l am saying is it is easier to work with a full belly

[sawdustmike]

Luv these threads. Schools reflect society, believe it or not! The system was put in place so that the premier universities could pick the top 5 or so % of students and to bugger the rest. Not much has changed, just window dressing.

What is happening now in education is a result of political influence which has nothing to do with good outcomes but rather empire building. The poor teacher is but a lowley serf in a thankless system.

Don't knock the money the gov gives the private schools. Per head it is far less than what is given to state schools. Don't forget, private school parents are tax payers too (usually heaps of tax) and if they all took their kids out and placed them in state schools there would be meltdown. Think of it as private school parents subsidise state schools.

[Bleedin Thumb]

That doesn't sound right to me. I did a quick search on the net and found this, part of a interview with Angelo Gavrelatos - Deputy president of the Australian Education Union (sorry I cant vouch for its credibility)

"
It started in the 1960s as the result of a campaign by the Catholic schools, which account for the largest percentage of private schools in Australia. The Catholics threatened to close down their schools in a country town west of Sydney, in essence blackmailing the government by saying they would bring down the entire education system because the public schools could not have immediately coped with the extra children.
As a result of that campaign, the government started funding private schools, first through monies targeted for science and libraries. Year by year, the funding increased to the point where the federal government now gives what we call recurrent funding — or in your terms, ongoing per-pupil funding — to the private schools. What started as a campaign allegedly based on need has become a program where private schools feel they are automatically entitled to public funds. Between 2005 and 2008, the federal government will give 75 percent of recurrent education funding to private schools. "

This is inspite of the fact that 75% of children go to public schools.

[SPIRIT]

Luv these threads. Schools reflect society, believe it or not! The system was put in place so that the premier universities could pick the top 5 or so % of students and to bugger the rest. Not much has changed, just window dressing.

What is happening now in education is a result of political influence which has nothing to do with good outcomes but rather empire building. The poor teacher is but a lowley serf in a thankless system.

Don't knock the money the gov gives the private schools. Per head it is far less than what is given to state schools. Don't forget, private school parents are tax payers too (usually heaps of tax) and if they all took their kids out and placed them in state schools there would be meltdown. Think of it as private school parents subsidise state schools.The rich get richer the poorer get stuffed :no:

[SPIRIT]

That doesn't sound right to me. I did a quick search on the net and found this, part of a interview with Angelo Gavrelatos - Deputy president of the Australian Education Union (sorry I cant vouch for its credibility)

"
It started in the 1960s as the result of a campaign by the Catholic schools, which account for the largest percentage of private schools in Australia. The Catholics threatened to close down their schools in a country town west of Sydney, in essence blackmailing the government by saying they would bring down the entire education system because the public schools could not have immediately coped with the extra children.
As a result of that campaign, the government started funding private schools, first through monies targeted for science and libraries. Year by year, the funding increased to the point where the federal government now gives what we call recurrent funding — or in your terms, ongoing per-pupil funding — to the private schools. What started as a campaign allegedly based on need has become a program where private schools feel they are automatically entitled to public funds. Between 2005 and 2008, the federal government will give 75 percent of recurrent education funding to private schools. "

This is inspite of the fact that 75% of children go to public schools.Makes you proud to be a tax pay dosen't it (Basteds)

[sawdustmike]

I said gov funding. State gov ed funds go almost entirely to state schools. As I said before, private school parents subsidise state schools - through the tax system. Don't get me wrong, I think the state school sysyem should not be a poor alternative to those who can't afford private schools. The funding given to state schools is more than adequate, they just waste it on a huge bureaucracy instead of at the coal face where it is desperately needed.

[SPIRIT]

Andy Mac were is your 2 bobs ,you seem to be doing the work that is needed more in the public system ,any word of wisdom :D

[bennylaird]

Worst thing about teaching?

The lack of spare time to do woodwork.

Where can I get one of those 9-3 positions?

Best thing? The enjoyment of heading off to work each day to see what you can do to help some kid progress in his/her choosen field.

[Bleedin Thumb]

As I said before, private school parents subsidise state schools - through the tax system.




Sorry Mike that is like saying all healthy people subsidise sick people or pedestrians subsidise motorists... that is the nature of taxation its used for lots of things.

I have a problem with my taxation going The C of E or the Catholic or the Prod's etc as they are some of the wealthiest organisations around - they make billions each year and don't pay a cent in tax.

It seems strange that after charging parents for a private education they still want public funding.

I don't think private school parents subsidise state schools at all, I think private schools are diverting much needed public funds away from the public schools.

If they want the tax payer to give them money they should let children of all religions into their schools and start paying taxes on all the business transactions.
Rant off :-

[Andy Mac]

Hey Spirit,
I've been reading with interest, but haven't all that much to do with the high school system lately. I teach at uni level, have done for nearly 15yrs, and could say a lot more about that, but I won't. Also, my kids aren't up to high school yet, another year or so, then I'll get to see what goes on.

However, I have run a couple of art workshops in high schools, mostly country towns, with Flying Arts and other programs. I think each school has its own unique culture, and the attitude of students is a direct result of the culture. It would seem that the whole teacher body, and how happy they are in their jobs, has a lot to do with it. If the principal or other senior staff have been in the job for too long, that is reflected by lack of passion or interest, and passes down through the staff. I guess that happens in primary schools and also universities.
Another thing to add to the mix is the support shown by P&C etc, not just the extra funds, but the sense of pride in the school filters down to the students. No active parent participation=we don't care about the students.
I'm sure the socio-economic area of the school has some influence on the culture too: a majority of students with low self-esteem or sense of opportunities for the future would be a real disaster.
I agree with Bitingmidge, that this push to keep as many students to Y12 is complete garbage. Students who would prefer to be out in the workforce are not doing themselves or their fellow students any favours. Maybe it has also bled trades of apprentices as well?
I went to a very large state school for Y8. and absolutely hated it (a real shock after a tiny country school), whereas my twin sister revelled in it. I then went to Y12 at a private boarding school, and muddled through. Not quite out of my league, just lacked a bit of direction. Some of the teachers there were outstanding, very motivated and supportive. And some were classic chalkies, had been there far too long. In hindsight I think that school was setup for high achievers, and anyone who wanted to get there was richly rewarded.
It looks like my kids will be going to a state high school, but there are a number to pick from here, and there would seem to be a distinct difference in them...am I right WB?!

Cheers,

[Bleedin Thumb]

I said gov funding. State gov ed funds go almost entirely to state schools...... The funding given to state schools is more than adequate, they just waste it on a huge bureaucracy instead of at the coal face where it is desperately needed.


The way the state government allocates education money is dictated by the federal Government.

What huge bureacracy would that be?... it seem to me that the whole show is run on a shoe string, but I'm not employed in an eduction department so I don't really know, but I'm guessing its nowhere as top heavy as Health, Roads, WorkerCover, Environment etc, and I bet the private schools have similar layers of bureacracy.

Sorry Mike, you may have noticed I'm a bit one eyed on this subject.:p

[wheelinround]

Bit of a hard one that...just because a school has funds in the bank doesn't mean that the funds aren't allocated to future upgrades but on the other hand they do like to cry poor but when you do work for them suddenly more funds miraculously become available.

If you want to really see whats going on go for a wander through a private school like Kings or Cranbrook and smell the money.

Not only do these schools charge the parents ..(I'm guessing here) $10k? a term but they also get more money from the government (your tax) than is allocated to public schools.........

However as I said before just because a school is well resourced doesn't mean the kids are any happier, mind you the promise of the Ferrari upon graduation may just put a smile on your face:wink:


Many of schools bank accounts and funding weather state or Federal are applied for not just by HM but also P&C's they have to stippulate what the grant is to be used.
Often gets sidetracked and or is never used due to changes of HM or P&C, this is missmanegment or fraud.
Many educational staff rort the system for personal gains, of anything from paper clips to using workshop machinery and stock meant for kids. Like everyone they bargin for lowest price but expect the best for it.
Yep your right it's your tax money which is siting idle while they close schools for 3 months computers tools you name it it's there.

Kings & Cranbrook PLC Barker been there done them, did a few country privates also & many other Nth shore schools,, even ones from QLD who came to SYD when driving.. day and a few days...
.....I RFLMAO when I saw many a boy's uniform in taters school has handmedown stall. Some from those days 80's have attitude other boys n girls have manners and realise tomorrow they could be in public and broke.

Ferrari :rolleyes: insurance $$$$ fuel $$$$ yeh ok if I got one no need to worry
biggest trouble no :no:where to drive the plucker:((:(( at its best no room for much inside either Lamborgini same.



Another thing to add to the mix is the support shown by P&C etc, not just the extra funds, but the sense of pride in the school filters down to the students. No active parent participation=we don't care about the students.
I'm sure the socio-economic area of the school has some influence on the culture too: a majority of students with low self-esteem or sense of opportunities for the future would be a real disaster.

I became president of P&C of my kids first Primary school one with just 90 pupils but still in Sydneys west. A HM change saw him try to railroad $20k+ meant for a tennis court, to be left till HE decided what it was used for parents almost lynched him they got their tennis court.
He then held my son and P&C Vic pres son to ransom sent out of class everytime he walked into it left out in sun for hrs.
Why"?? he wanted his P&C meetings during his work hrs he wanted all mother no males, he wanted all bank accounts signed over to him. I almost lost my job due to me having take time of to sort stuff out finally I resigned as did others and pulled our kids out,
P&C main would do nothing dept of ed would not investigate. At 3 other schools they attended (moved to country) we were asked to join P&C and very polite we declined but still got involved.

As for kids staying to yr 12 employers were screaming as were TAFE teachers due to lack of basics kids couldn't do, also WC & OH&S policies meant kids at 16 couldn't use tools etc even be on site. Stupid when kids around Tamworth were driving $$$$$ tractors etc and looking after properties and stubd bulls rams worth more than $5000 lathe they were told is tooooo dangerous you have no concept of responibility or danger.

Parents from as soon as they can teach their children they have to grow u while teachers hold them back saying your only a KID your here to learn many ask WHAT???

[SPIRIT]

Best thing? The enjoyment of heading off to work each day to see what you can do to help some kid progress in his/her choosen field.l deal with the kid that are getting rejected from the systemy,year 12 bloody hell some l would be happy with year 9.As my boss said you need only save one and it is all worth it:) .
Thanks andy for the 2 bobs :)
l do think schools need to rethink how they run, parent need to be involved, most parent wont the best for thier kids, when my kids were at primary school the parent were a big part of it and l saw how it made a diffrents not sitting in meetings but out there with the kids helping the teachers ,sport days ,reading,excursions,ect, sadly at high school this is not the norm :(
l went for a job (bunnings)and you answer all them dumb questions well one was give a example of where you have got feed back from your work

l got the most thank you card in one year than anybody else befor
l think l knew all the kids name in year 4,5 and 1/2 the year 6:)

elders seem to have lost thier way in todays society,is this because they have no part in the eduction of the young:?

Do we need to change it or just tweek up the education system

[sawdustmike]

Yes BL, I can see that you are passionate about this subject. I tend to be a bit more ambivilant.

We will never agree on the tax thing so we can leave it there.

Parents send their kids to PS for a range of reasons. Some for status symbol, some as old boys/old girls, but most choose because the state system fails, in a lot of cases, to deliver what they want as an education for the kids. This is an unfortunate reality bought about by many things beyond the scope of this thread.

The state system does receive adequate funding, it is how they use it that is the problem. They have HUGE layers of admin to contend with, possibly more admin staff than teachers. The Catholic system has a similar setup but not as vast.

Any decent PS will take a student regardless of race , creed or colour. There are some PS (catholic usually) that pay their fees to the church and receive a % back. I think this is unethical and they should have that amount removed from the much vaunted gov funding (I wait with bated breath!). Some PS shove fundamental dogma down the students throat and this says more about the parents that send their kids to these schools than the brain washing rant of the schools themselves.

My two lower primary girls go to a PS and I shopped around to find the best place for them, there was some very good state schools around but none could offer the whole package that my girls currently receive. They have to go to chapel once a week, but religion is not stuffed down their throats. If they didn't go, they would only get my jaundiced caustic view of organised religion rather than a word from t' other side to balance things up a bit.

I don't believe it is a rich person thing anymore to send your kids to PS. We are by no means rich, or well off even. We value the education our kids receive and the fact we pay dearly for it is of no relevance. Our kids education is what I am passionate about, not the hoary old chestnut of public V private.

Happy woodworking

[Bleedin Thumb]

I agree with what your saying - except the tax thing. I have my two boys in the State system kindy and Grade 1..and I am very critical and disappointed about some things. Things that could be fixed by proper funding.:rolleyes:

As a result we may be putting them into a private school if we can find one we like and afford - I also know a couple who took their son out of private because they were having the same issues were having with state.

If the problem is inefficient administration - reform it, but dont starve public education. All this is doing is creating a class society based on education. That to me is revisionist and counter productive.

To be fair though even if a government was brave enough to stop funding private schools the money probably wouldn't get spent on public schools.....it probably go on some desalination plant or some other white elephant.:no:

[Big Shed]

So BT, to take your argument to its' logical conclusion, if you are saying that governments, either state or federal, should not be funding private education?

Then if people chose to have private health insrance, they should not be entitled to a Medicare refund?


At the end of the day, all these kids need to be educated, if there were no private schools, they would all go to a publicschool. Who would pay for that, the taxpayer, ergo governments.

I think you should look at how much it costs per year educate a kid in public school, and how much the governments spend on each kid per year in private schools. From memory it is about 2:1, ie it costs the governments twice as much to educate a public school student as it does a private school student.

The difference is made up by parents, the same parents that also pay their taxes to spend double on educating the neighbours kids in a public school.

From memory there was a chap called Latham that was going to stop funding private schools on his hit list, look what happened to him.

I am not biased either way, all three of my kids went to public schools, so I don't have an axe to grind, but I think ideology should be left out of the education funding debate.

[Burnsy]

Another thing to add to the mix is the support shown by P&C etc, not just the extra funds, but the sense of pride in the school filters down to the students. No active parent participation=we don't care about the students.
I'm sure the socio-economic area of the school has some influence on the culture too: a majority of students with low self-esteem or sense of opportunities for the future would be a real disaster.


Pretty much on the dot there. There are two effects of socio economic situation, one is money and the other is the child’s environment. As Bleedin Thumb said, money does not necessarily make students and teachers smile. We recently had a Principal change and the smiles appeared within the first two hours at school and have stayed. Schools are no different to any other organisation, poor management smashes moral. We don’t have the money of private schools but there is still plenty to do that does not cost heaps of money.

What money state schools do get is poorly used due to a bureaucratic debacle of a tendering and pre-registration system that is in place. All major works are undertaken by a hand full of contractors who are pre-registered and all flat out. Therefore you get nothing for your money. We recently spent $90k on refurbishing an undercover area and if you saw it you would ask what we had done. Concreting that is not level, water pools in the middle, low MPA that dusted and required sealing with a concrete paint afterwards. I had words with the department supervisor and said that I wanted to see the specifications as there was no way these clowns should be paid and the whole lot should be ripped up at their cost – nothing was done. We are currently having shade shelters erected – two 6x3 gabled patios side by side. They have been working on them for five weeks now – I kid you not! These should have gone up in three days. What they have put up is all on the and nowhere near level.
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Private schools employ maintenance supervisors and get a lot more for their money as each job is managed.<O:p></O:p>
The other side of the socio economic coin is the environment. When students are told that they are worthless little c###s at home by no hoper parents it is no wonder they come to school with a bad attitude and swear at the teachers – it is all that they know. This is very apparent after holidays when you notice the difference that spending seven days a week with mum or dad makes to a child, all the good work the teacher did in the previous term is straight out the window. For example I have a 10 year old in my class who can not read or write – even his own name will be spelt wrong 4 out of 5 times. His mum tells me she does not care if he can’t read or write. Get real, there are no jobs anywhere anymore for illiterate people, you can’t even dig holes without being able to read a safety manual and pass a blue card test.
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I have six so called pointy end kids in my class so realistically what can I do to help this kid if his mum won’t support me? You can’t give kids one on one time because as soon as you do three others start playing up and realistically there are no consequences. The don’t care attitude of these kids is deeply engrained and in the most part is not just a front. They truly do not care if they miss out on a reward and believe that they should be given everything, it is their right. Who is to blame – the PARENTS!
<O:p></O:p>
The other end of the scale is not much better. I have a friend who teaches at one of the top private girl’s schools. The “I don’t have to do that” attitude of these kids is just as bad. Many have never had to do a thing for themselves and expect the same at school. These kids grow up knowing that no matter what they do mummy or daddy will fix it for them and they are never wrong, they are mummies little angels.
<O:p></O:p>
There is a middle ground and the kids in those schools are generally all pretty level headed and respectful. 70&#37; of the kids in my school fit in there and I will give those kids everything. What they put up with on a daily basis from the other 30% is disgusting to say the least, but the governments stance on inclusive schooling and the lack of real consequences means that as a teacher all you can do is minimize the impact the 30% have on the rest of the students – grin and bare it!
Rant finished.<O:p></O:p>

[wheelinround]

PAs Bleedin Thumb said, money does not necessarily make students and teachers smile. We recently had a Principal change and the smiles appeared within the first two hours at school and have stayed. Schools are no different to any other organisation, poor management smashes moral. We don’t have the money of private schools but there is still plenty to do that does not cost heaps of money.[quote]

Your right any new staff member can ruine the enviroment of others school or work.
Having worked in a number of industries a one persons good boss is anothers satanic hell. This brings it to personality traits same at schools.



What money state schools do get is poorly used due to a bureaucratic debacle of a tendering and pre-registration system that is in place. All major works are undertaken by a hand full of contractors who are pre-registered and all flat out.

Yep just look at NSW recent tenders for fencing and fitting of A/C's systems a small handfull to do the whole states schools (ok Sydney's anyway).

Therefore you get nothing for your money. We recently spent $90k on refurbishing an undercover area and if you saw it you would ask what we had done. Concreting that is not level, water pools in the middle, low MPA that dusted and required sealing with a concrete paint afterwards. I had words with the department supervisor and said that I wanted to see the specifications as there was no way these clowns should be paid and the whole lot should be ripped up at their cost – nothing was done.

Wonder who's in who's pocket there.

We are currently having shade shelters erected – two 6x3 gabled patios side by side. They have been working on them for five weeks now – I kid you not! These should have gone up in three days. What they have put up is all on the and nowhere near level.
<o></o>
:oo::oo: Attitude is "Hey its a gov contract we can make $$$ for doing little and take as long as we like, recently a LCC put in doz new trees around a park play area across the road, All the equip they needed trees quite mature, a doz workers and 3 weekends.

The other side of the socio economic coin is the environment. When students are told that they are worthless little c###s at home by no hoper parents it is no wonder they come to school with a bad attitude and swear at the teachers – it is all that they know.

This comes from even North Shore as well parents and teachers, by parents but maybe not in words. Many get more love from nannies, or are shoved off to boarding schools out of parents way so the parents can get on with their lives as they want. The highest paid child minding service for high flying execs politicians gov officials. I have met kids that only used to see parents for an hour when they flew into Syd airport or back out nanny used to take them or find their own way there. One girls private school there were more girls dropped off by nannies than parents, it was amazing to see the girls who were brought by parents hug them quick and dump n run, while those with nannies didn't want to leave them the nannies stayed till I drove away.

This is very apparent after holidays when you notice the difference that spending seven days a week with mum or dad makes to a child, all the good work the teacher did in the previous term is straight out the window.

Are these kids spending that time with mum & dad??? Socio dictates they must work heaven help us if business had that many staff off during these times. They only get 4 weeks holiday a year to devide up to 3 months their kids get off. This means that kids are looking after themselves, parenst have to trust their kids during this time educate them for every possibility and allow them to grow and learn.

For example I have a 10 year old in my class who can not read or write – even his own name will be spelt wrong 4 out of 5 times. His mum tells me she does not care if he can’t read or write. Get real, there are no jobs anywhere anymore for illiterate people, you can’t even dig holes without being able to read a safety manual and pass a blue card test.
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Years ago (late 60's early 70's) teachers were dragged from all walks of life put through a rush course and stood in front of school kids a teacher shortage. Trades grab for apprentices due to low costs they demand these kids "know it all" .After all they have spent years sitting around doing nothing, being taught everything, government funding has been handed, out teachers pay packets have been increased, they are being kept up to date with modern technology.
This mum may have a life that has been worthless, itmay have been instilled in her from an early age or she mayhave come fromthe best of families and knows that education didn't do anything for her that family ties can do much better.

</v:shape></o:lock>I have six so called pointy end kids in my class so realistically what can I do to help this kid if his mum won’t support me? Show the kid you care like you are doing with the project :2tsup::2tsup: it will hit home he is the one who might want to change his destiny. One small step!!! But huge in my eyes. LOML did a TAFE course many moons ago for Adult Litracy to teach adults many her won age (30's) at the time and just as many older, she gave it up as a joke when a number of her students were cab drivers, and had been for years, no wonder they couldn't use a street directory.

About the same time I was spraying a Mini for a parent of a local well off business family who's son was in Duntroon the restration was a gift for passing all his exams and becoming an Officer and Engineer. Sadly he was involved in an investigation that rocked his parents world. He had some how gone through his whole school years passing exams, passed entrance exams to Duntroon and passed all exams there until out on manouvers. He was handed a sealed envelope with FYEO security and ripped it open and handed it to a subordinate and asked him to read it so he could check the maps cordinates. An observing oficer stopped this and handed it back to him and said you must do this yourself to which they found he couldn't read he was dyslexic:o. He had devised all his school years how to learn by rote having other class mates read to him, goodness knows how he got through exam papers.

ADFA had to discharge him sat him through test after test which he passed thinking he had cheated he had stored it all in memory. I believe they helped him and continued his employment in their engineering side.

You can’t give kids one on one time because as soon as you do three others start playing up and realistically there are no consequences. Yep and its usually the teaher shwo give their time most to pointy heads that the other kids see as favouritism so they then begin to play up.
The don’t care attitude of these kids is deeply engrained and in the most part is not just a front. They truly do not care if they miss out on a reward and believe that they should be given everything, it is their right. Who is to blame – the PARENTS!
<o>:p></o>:p>
The other end of the scale is not much better. I have a friend who teaches at one of the top private girl’s schools. The “I don’t have to do that” attitude of these kids is just as bad. Many have never had to do a thing for themselves and expect the same at school. These kids grow up knowing that no matter what they do mummy or daddy will fix it for them and they are never wrong, they are mummies little angels.
<o>:p></o>:p>

There is a middle ground and the kids in those schools are generally all pretty level headed and respectful. 70% of the kids in my school fit in there and I will give those kids everything. What they put up with on a daily basis from the other 30% is disgusting to say the least, but the governments stance on inclusive schooling and the lack of real consequences means that as a teacher all you can do is minimize the impact the 30% have on the rest of the students – grin and bare it!
Rant finished.<o></o>>What ever happened to the visions I was shown of Aussie kids sitting learning under a tree prior coming to Australia??
We see this in countries of 3rd world standard or even Australia's own outback schools.
If electrical equipment all died tomorrow could kids not be taught, look at the Tsunami effected kids some teachers got them into groups and taught them. Aussie Dr's went OS to aid, no fantastic inventions just pure intelegence and willing to learn you can save a life with less.

sorry I am so pasionate about money and what it will and wont do.

[Bleedin Thumb]

Then if people chose to have private health insrance, they should not be entitled to a Medicare refund?

.


No, everyones entitled to the medicare rebate, sorry I don't see the connection with the education debate.:?

As far as keeping ideology out of the debate... IMHO this is purely an ideological issue.

Free quality education to all not just those that can afford it.

What was the last budget surplus over a Billion dollars from memory but there are kids freezing in leaky demountable buildings, there are no more teachers aids, and not enough resources to provide adequate remedial math and literacy programs.

Too right its a ideologic debate..

[Big Shed]

No, everyones entitled to the medicare rebate, sorry I don't see the connection with the education debate.:?



Quite simple really, we all pay tax, well most of us, and therefore we are entitled to "free" health care, we should also be entitled to "free" education. What you are saying is that you should only get government subsidised education in government schools. Why?




As far as keeping ideology out of the debate... IMHO this is purely an ideological issue.

Free quality education to all not just those that can afford it.


Exactly to ALL!




What was the last budget surplus over a Billion dollars from memory but there are kids freezing in leaky demountable buildings, there are no more teachers aids, and not enough resources to provide adequate remedial math and literacy programs.




And this despite the government paying roughly twice as much to educate a child in the government "system"! From what I can see and have experienced, the education system is in the state it is in not because of lack of funding but because of top heavy bureaucracy and ideology driven "outcomes based" clap-trap.

That is why parents are voting with their feet and paying extra, and getting less subsidy from the government, to give their children an education.

You would prefer to deny them even that reduced subsidy



Too right its a ideologic debate..


So let's keep the ideology out of education and teach our children properly, if they can do it in private schools, why can't they in public schools?

[Burnsy]

Are these kids spending that time with mum & dad??? Socio dictates they must work heaven help us if business had that many staff off during these times. They only get 4 weeks holiday a year to devide up to 3 months their kids get off. This means that kids are looking after themselves, parenst have to trust their kids during this time educate them for every possibility and allow them to grow and learn.

Suprisingly yes, despite the amount of employment available in WA at the moment, we have a disproportionate amount of non-workers in our school community. Many single parents who feel they don't have any other option but to stay home due to the cost of after school care and many others with the why should I work attitude.

[wheelinround]

Suprisingly yes, despite the amount of employment available in WA at the moment, we have a disproportionate amount of non-workers in our school community. Many single parents who feel they don't have any other option but to stay home due to the cost of after school care and many others with the why should I work attitude.

So why is after school care costing so much they are after all not teachers just baby sitting.
Then again employers would be vexed by a mass walk out at end of school so parents can go home and look after their kids.

I hate being home have been for about 10 yrs but I try keep myself busy one reason for joining this forum and getting into woodwork.
The other is so I don't waste away physically and mentally.

Shame some of these single parents couldn't coem help you in the project Burnsy. I'd even get into it over here but regulations, access, etc mind you it might show kids that even a person with a disability can still learn, earn and produce..

[Bleedin Thumb]

You would prefer to deny them even that reduced subsidy



So let's keep the ideology out of education and teach our children properly, if they can do it in private schools, why can't they in public schools?


Firstly some of the private schools don't need public funding and to receive it is misappropiation of public funds.

Secondly if the Government fixed the public system by cutting the beuracratic waste and allocating the proper resources people wouldn't have to vote with their feet it would be purely the parents choice to send their kids to a private school so they shouldn't expect the rest of society to pay for their choice.

Thirdly it is an ideological argument..Privatisation of the education system.

What we have now is demolition of the public system by neglect, forcing people to take up private education.

Mmmmm haven't we seen that somewhere before?:rolleyes: I'm afraid it is ideology that is causing the problem in the first place. The education system has been infected by the capitalist bug.

[Big Shed]

BT, you are espousing class envy ala Latham. Even Rudd has moved on from that.

[Bleedin Thumb]

You may call it class envy.. I call it social justice ...and I don't really care about what some Labour politician thinks. I gave up on the labour party years ago.:)

Anyway BS we aren't going to agree on this one so all the best .:2tsup:

[sawdustmike]

Well said everyone! As I said before, and before, the state system has enough money, it is how they use it. Just take a walk into silver city (ed dept headquarters in perth) and you will see what I mean. Once you get a job in there, you get a temp in to do your job so you can spend time improving your resume so that you can climb the ladder - serious, this is what goes on. When I started at my last school there was one HM and two deputies. HM retired and replaced by new wave numbers imbecile. When I left (resigned) the school had one HM, three deputies, timetable co-ordinator, MSB co-ordinator and a permenent relief teacher to organise relief teachers! By the way, school numbers had dropped from 800 to less than 600. Staff turnover went from virtually nil to about 30%.

Some PS promote a snotty attitude, which is a reflection of the parents that send their kids there. This is why we shopped around. Not all top tier PS are like that. Heck even the state schools have their elitist attitudes - Churchlands and Rossmoyne for example.

Sorry BT, this is not really an idealogy thing. The bottom end get shafted by everybody, left, right, banks etc. Education is a responsibility of the states, and the feds give about 40% of the funding so I think they deserve some input to the process. Don't forget, all the states are gov by labour so if you think it will improve federally under Rudd dream on.

[SPIRIT]

wow this theard is still kicking ,when l started it l had one of them crapy days 2 kid suspended (not from me) dealing with the admin of the school was a nightmare :~

what l think they need more in our schools is plain old life skill teaching (well thats my job ) one of the hardest thing at the moment is teaching them how to talk without useing F#$@ this F!@# that in it.

We try to fit in some woodwork and art as well :)

Had a lot better day today :) did some good work reprograming them a little, it makes it feel better when there is some improvement

Teenager's brain is a stange thing:?

keeping them off the streets is the main game l seem to be playing

still think the school system needs to rethink how they deal with the lower 30%,disaplin dosn't work all the time :no: