ABS Releases more useless Stats

[silentC]

From the SMH:


On the day when a Reserve Bank meeting is expected to raise interest rates, new statistics reveal thousands are paying off loans on houses that are too big for them.

The ABS found that between 1994 and 2004, the average number people per household dropped from 2.7 to 2.5, but the average number of bedrooms had risen from 2.9 to 3.

In 2003-04, 77 per cent of households had one or more spare bedrooms and nearly all (97 per cent) of couple-only households had one or more spare bedrooms. At least 85 per cent of solo dwellers also had empty bedrooms in their homes.

By tying it to interest rates, what they are trying to say here is that people are foolishly paying off huge mortgages on bedrooms they don't need.

Don't any of these people have family or friends that live interstate/overseas who come to visit? Don't they have friends who like to come over for a few drinks and stay the night? Don't they have old computers/toys/boxes of junk to store?

I mean, if you took any notice of these pointy heads, where would the childless couple who don't want to live in an apartment block find a house with one bedroom? What about the young couple buying into the housing market and planning a family in a few year's time - are they supposed to live in a flat until the first baby comes along?

It's the weakest excuse for a story I've heard today!

[Wongo]

The ABS found that between 1994 and 2004, the average number people per household dropped from 2.7 to 2.5, but the average number of bedrooms had risen from 2.9 to 3.


Its 4 and 4, so the Wongs are above average.:cool:

[silentC]

Same here. Same with both my neighbours.

There must be some single rich dude living in a mansion here somewhere to make up the difference.

[chrisp]

I'm not so sure... It seems to me that people want to buy bigger and better houses than their parents ever had, and yet they have smaller families, more, and newer, cars. Little wonder they are worried by interest rate rises.

I recall a story on 4 Corners about housing and McMansions. One comment was that first home buyers want to start where their parents finished (in terms of quality and size of housing).

[silentC]

Houses are bigger, no doubt. That's probably a valid observation. Bigger rooms, more family space - rumpus room, study, separate dining, home theatres etc.

I came from a family of 5 and we always lived in 3 or 4 bedroom houses. Families of that size are less common now, and most people I know have 1 or 2 kids, not 3 or 4. But I remember when we lived in a 2 bedroom house with one kid. It was an absolute pain when grandparents came to stay. Suitcases in the hall, mattresses on the lounge room floor. Hated it.

I suppose I'm not arguing that the houses are bigger, it's the 'too big for them' that I disagree with. Adding a spare bedroom to the cost of building a house is bugger all as a percentage, compared to what it costs to put in an ensuite.

I also wonder what they expect us to do with all the three bedroom houses now that we only have 2.5 people per house. Get in a boarder I suppose.

[Wongo]

What they are trying to say here is that people are foolishly paying off huge mortgages on bedrooms they don't need.

I do agree that there are a lot of people buying more then they can afford. As a result both mum and dad need to work, the children are sent to childcare or to the grandparents. In the end children are the losers.

[Wongo]

Cars, same thing.

Why do people buy a newer car or a second car while struggling to pay off the mortgage is beyond me. Why?:doh:

[silentC]

Yes but the houses that a lot of Sydney-siders are buying were built in the 50's. The house is the same house that their grandparents bought - it's just that the price of real estate is so high. It's not because they have too many bedrooms.

If you're talking about McMansions, a house and land package is nothing like what it would cost for a 50 year old 3 bedroom house in Mosman and they get 4 or 5 beds, rumpus, double garage etc. etc. It cost me about $650 to build two houses, one 3 bed one 4 including the 1.1 Ha block they're built on. You would be lucky to buy a block of land for that in Sydney.

[Big Shed]

It is not just the size of the house that pushes up the prices of today's housing, but all the extras. When we started we had a basic 3 bedroom 12 square house. No carpets, no paving/concreting, no dishwasher and the list goes on. All that was built up over the years.

Now this generation, as someone else observed, wants to start where their parents finished, or preferably bigger and better. At the same time they want the holidays overseas, 2 new cars, a 42" plasma screen with all the other bits. All this goes on the mortgage!:oo:

Then when mortgage rates go up, it is all the governments fault that they are in the sh*t.

To those people I say, grow up and do the hard yards like our generation did.:doh:

(Spoken like a true old phart!)

[Gingermick]

I usually have two spare bedrooms. My two littlest kids always end up in bed with us.

[bitingmidge]

Something I know something about! :D I'm right, the following is TRUE.

Houses ARE bigger, about twice the area on average.

They ARE infinitely more complex, with wiring, bathrooms and even built-in kitchens now!

They ARE burdened by redtape, with the cost of compliance with bushfire, structural codes, and climatic requirements pushing up the base price, to say nothing of the cost of the beaurocracy that administers them.

Land costs are artificially inflated by the extreme headworks charges and holding costs while developers battle with layer apon layer of red tape. The Qld government has recently recognised this, and is apparently going to release some land which will enable a direct approval process. They are responding to the red tape problem by establishing a new government department! :oo:

So, get back to basics. Stop buying stuff that needs space to keep it. Build small and simple, and you could EASILY knock 30% of the cost of housing. (another 20% too if you ignore manufacturer's instructions BTW! :p )

I've a feeling I'll say more on this one!

Cheers,

P (2 people, 2 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms, 2 "studies", 2 car garage, 2 sheds, 1 television)

:D :D :D

[Cliff Rogers]

.... (2 people, 2 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms, 2 "studies", 2 car garage, 2 sheds, 1 television).....
At the risk of wearing out the joke, how many dust extractors systems? :p

[bitingmidge]

Only one, but it's got a twin outlet! :D :D :D

P (no ducting though!)

[Metal Head]

Cars, same thing.

Why do people buy a newer car or a second car while struggling to pay off the mortgage is beyond me. Why?:doh:

It is so they can show their friends that they can as least do the same as them or even better:wink: but we know if the rates go up substantially they will be the one's most likely with egg on their faces.

[Sebastiaan56]

I lived in 0.9 of a room once, boy was I glad when the others moved out......

[Metal Head]

Now this generation, as someone else observed, wants to start where their parents finished, or preferably bigger and better. At the same time they want the holidays overseas, 2 new cars, a 42" plasma screen with all the other bits. All this goes on the mortgage!:oo:

So who's fault is that? Their's because they are pressured into it, are they naive to believe that interest rates never go up:doh:? They want to keep up with their friends and family?

Like all responsible people "they should live within their means"


Then when mortgage rates go up, it is all the governments fault that they are in the sh*t.

This logic really gets up my back how naive are people:no: the WORLD BANKS determine how much the interest rates will be not necessarily our government. Australian rates have at least over the past 2 decades have been higher than most of the World because we are a small country (economy), so in order to attract foreign money to come here the rates have too be higher.

To those people I say, grow up and do the hard yards like our generation did.:doh:

Too bloody right

(Spoken like a true old phart!)

[dazzler]

I usually have two spare bedrooms. My two littlest kids always end up in bed with us.

And then they lay crossways :p

[dazzler]

Hey Metal head

Dont forget you havent finished your discussions on the other thread yet :D

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=53327

[Metal Head]

Hey Metal head

Dont forget you havent finished your discussions on the other thread yet :D

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=53327

Yesterdays news Dazzler - life moves on:wink:. However, I am not one generally one for saying -

" I told you so"

Btw, I got pulled up at Brisbane last year @ Maroochydore as they thought I was carrying drugs in my "carry on bag":o. Only to be told everything was OK after further tests. Fortunately I didn't miss the plane but I got some stern looks of fellow passengers:q.

[Gra]

This logic really gets up my back how naive are people:no: the WORLD BANKS determine how much the interest rates will be not necessarily our government.

I will step in at this point, this is something I know a little about. The world banks have no say in what the interest rates are, they are set by either the government or an authority appointed by said Government In this country it is the reserve bank board (Whose members are appointed by guess who).

The Reserve bank in Australia has distanced itself from the Goverment as much as it can, but the government can still influence it decisions (To what degree is always debatable) .

As a postcript the unofficial word I am getting is rates wont rise, as the market in the US is too unstable and as we are heading into an election cycle, the RBA dont want to influence the outcome (Or be seen to) in any way at all. So my tip will be no rate rises till after the election unless something goes completly nuts with the numbers (There are some numbers coming out soon, they will be the big test)

[Sturdee]

As a postcript the unofficial word I am getting is rates wont rise, as the market in the US is too unstable and as we are heading into an election cycle, the RBA dont want to influence the outcome (Or be seen to) in any way at all.


Because we are already in election mode any decision either way is a factor in the election so it should be based solely on our economy.

The RBA will be damned if they do or damned if they don't, but using the US unstable economy as an excuse is unacceptable.


Peter.

[Metal Head]

This logic really gets up my back how naive are people:no: the WORLD BANKS determine how much the interest rates will be not necessarily our government.

I will step in at this point, this is something I know a little about. The world banks have no say in what the interest rates are, they are set by either the government or an authority appointed by said Government In this country it is the reserve bank board (Whose members are appointed by guess who).

The Reserve bank in Australia has distanced itself from the Goverment as much as it can, but the government can still influence it decisions (To what degree is always debatable) .

As a postcript the unofficial word I am getting is rates wont rise, as the market in the US is too unstable and as we are heading into an election cycle, the RBA dont want to influence the outcome (Or be seen to) in any way at all. So my tip will be no rate rises till after the election unless something goes completly nuts with the numbers (There are some numbers coming out soon, they will be the big test)

Yum Yum - I didn't know humble pie tasted so good:rolleyes: :). So there we have it I, was wrong - again:(. I suppose I would never be any good as a politician as I admit I make mistakes. So lets say GRA that interest rates went either up or down by let's say 2% in as many months in the US, then you are saying ours wouldn't move?

What I find strange though there is all this talk of interest rises, yet a Sydney home smashed the record for the most expensive home in Australia the other day for nearly $30 million.

It appears Gra, a few economists disagree with your unofficial word.

Rates set to rise to 10-year high:o

By staff writers and AAP
August 07, 2007 18:30


INTEREST rates are expected to rise to a 10-year high tomorrow, adding about $50 to the average monthly mortgage. Economists expect the Reserve Bank to raise rates by 25 basis points to 6.5 per cent, stretching household budgets and forcing some people to the wall.

The last time rates were this high was in November 1996, shortly after Prime Minister John Howard took over management of the economy from the Labor Party. It would be the fifth interest rate rise since the Prime Minister’s 2004 election promise that rates would remain low under a Coalition government.

The Howard Government this week sought to shift the blame to the states, starting an advertising campaign which blames state government debt for putting upward pressure on rates.

Strong Data Pressures RBA - The central bank sets interest rates to keep inflation between 2 and 3 per cent. But months of firm economic data – including strong business conditions, high consumer sentiment, low unemployment and robust economic growth – have put upward pressure on rates.

Private debt is also growing faster than at any time since the late 1980s. The country's housing sector has been the stand out exception, with building and home sales muted following the industry's boom years.

On the world stage, a sharply rising global oil price is putting pressure on petrol prices at the bowser and, back home, Australians are being forced to fork out more money for soaring food costs and rent. The biggest contributors to inflation during the month of July were increases in the price of fruit and vegetables, bread and cereal products, and alcohol and tobacco, the TD Securities-Melbourne institute monthly inflation gauge showed.

The cost of staples has risen by more than three times the rate of inflation over the past three years. And over the June quarter, the consumer price index (CPI) rose well above economists' expectations.

Bank Repossessions Rising - Bank repossessions of properties are rising around Australia, particularly in the mortgage belts of Sydney and Melbourne, as some people fall behind on mortgage repayments. While higher income earners have been insulated from rate rises through tax cuts, lower income earners and those heavily in debt are struggling to keep up with higher living costs.

[dazzler]

Yesterdays news Dazzler - life moves on:wink:. However, I am not one generally one for saying -

" I told you so"

Btw, I got pulled up at Brisbane last year @ Maroochydore as they thought I was carrying drugs in my "carry on bag":o. Only to be told everything was OK after further tests. Fortunately I didn't miss the plane but I got some stern looks of fellow passengers:q.


Sadly I would still like you to explain how I sounded like a racist before nicking off from the other thread.

Sorry everyone, but courage of our convictions. :wink:

[Metal Head]

Oh well there we are another 0.25% rise - Gra I wouldn't always believe what your told.



Aussies richer, older, fatter and unwed

Australia has become a country of fat, single gluttons who each generate two tonnes of waste a year and live in houses that are unnecessarily large. A snapshot of Australian life shows that consumption of almost every kind is up, as are divorce rates and life expectancy - which is among the highest in the world.

The Australian Bureau Of Statistics (ABS) report Australian Social Trends 2007 paints a picture of a prosperous, well-educated nation, but one which is falling behind in health care and spending an extraordinary amount on mobile phones.

It is also a country in which Aborigines remain severely disadvantaged in almost every area. The ABS data shows that perhaps the most alarming and obvious changes in the Australian social landscape over the past decade is in the number of obese and overweight adults in the population. Around 7.4 million, or 54 per cent, of Australian men and women have serious weight problems, up from around two million in 1995. It is estimated that weight-related illness cost the nation as much as $21 billion in 2005.

One of the flow-on effects of obesity is diabetes, which is disproportionately high among Aborigines and Torres Strait Islanders.
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people are more than three times as likely as non-indigenous people to have diabetes and more than 10 times as likely to have kidney disease.

The ABS figures also suggest the education system is failing Aboriginal children with only 40 per cent staying at school until year 12, compared to a rate of almost 76 per cent among non-indigenous children. The social trends report points to a continuation of the trend away from marriage, concluding 31 per cent of currently single men and 26 per cent of women will never be married.

And those that do are less likely than ever to stay that way. One-third of marriages in 2000/02 could be expected to end in divorce, compared with 28 per cent in 1985/87.

The combination of more divorces and less marriages seems to also be having a negative economic impact on more and more homes. In 2003/04, 49 per cent of one-parent families with children under 15 endured both low income and low wealth, compared with 11 per cent of two-parent families with children of the same age.

One social measure that has improved is the national fertility rate which has steadily increased since 2001 to stand at 1.81 babies per woman in 2005.

Women are also remaining in the workforce in increasing numbers, the participation rate up from 74 per cent in 1990 to 76 per cent in 2005 for people aged 15-64 years.

In conjunction, perhaps not surprisingly, with the rise in the weight of the population is the leap in consumption, which in turn is linked to a steady rise in average incomes.

Real net national disposable income per capita - purchasing power - has risen by 50 per cent since 1991-92, while real net national worth - national wealth - has risen from around $215,000 per person in 1992 to more than $236,000 in 2006.

At a time when interest rates and housing affordability are high on the national agenda, the ABS has revealed that thousands are paying off houses that are too big for them.

The average Australian home has more bedrooms on average than 10 years ago, a trend which is at odds with the shrinking size of families. The ABS found that between 1994 and 2004, the average number of people per household dropped from 2.7 to 2.5, but the average number of bedrooms had risen from 2.9 to 3.

Couple-only households comprised 26 per cent of the total in 2003-04 and lone persons accounted for 25 per cent, up from 24 per cent and 23 per cent respectively in 1994-95, the report found.

While the social trends report paints a picture of a profligate and excessive population, there is one area where warnings seem to be getting through.

In 1986 Australians spent $855 a head on cigarettes and other tobacco products. In 2006 they spent only $473.

[Gra]

It appears Gra, a few economists disagree with your unofficial word.

They are economists show me two that agree on anything.....:; I guess we will find out later this morning :shrug:


So lets say GRA that interest rates went either up or down by let's say 2% in as many months in the US, then you are saying ours wouldn't move?


No I am saying that the banks don't dictate those rate. Those rates are driven from the official rate set by the central authority (In the states it is the Federal Reserve, here it is the RBA).

Looks like they announces an increase, I guess they figured they would get in in case the US market faltered during the election (As I said it is f lackey, could go either way at present).. What can I say, my boys were on the wrong side of the market today. Happens all the time :shrug:

[Metal Head]

Sadly I would still like you to explain how I sounded like a racist before nicking off from the other thread.

Sorry everyone, but courage of our convictions. :wink:


Gee Dazzler it's about time you got yourself a real life and grow up in it. As it was proven by all the government people covering their bums hoping it will blow over that this was another porky pie. I said the fact was even given the lies you were still keen to see this guy go. Why would anyone in there right mind want an excellent Doctor to leave this country when there is a shortage. Thus it comes across to me (and maybe others) that you don't like this guy because of his colour, or is it you don't like Indians?

[Metal Head]

They are economists show me two that agree on anything.....:; I guess we will find out later this morning :shrug:

Sorry Gra but you stated that the rate was going to stay as it was and it hasn't, so don't blame economists blame the person(s) who told you the porkie pie:wink:


So lets say GRA that interest rates went either up or down by let's say 2% in as many months in the US, then you are saying ours wouldn't move?


No I am saying that the banks don't dictate those rate. Those rates are driven from the official rate set by the central authority (In the states it is the Federal Reserve, here it is the RBA).

Looks like they announces an increase, I guess they figured they would get in in case the US market faltered during the election (As I said it is f lackey, could go either way at present).. What can I say, my boys were on the wrong side of the market today. Happens all the time :shrug:

[Honorary Bloke]

Metal Head, dammit,

If you keep on pushing me to agree with Dazzler, it will be too bad. :D That hurts. :wink: Perhaps I can provoke you to pick on me for a while, because I'm going to have a lie down anyway. I can take it. And watch what generalisations you make about the States, because I am no sooky la la. Best have facts, my friend. Dazzler is no racist. I actually read his posts. Suggest you do the same. :cool:

[Gra]

[quote/]Sorry Gra but you stated that the rate was going to stay as it was and it hasn't, so don't blame economists blame the person(s) who told you the porkie pie[\quote]

No porkie, just the tea leaves fell the wrong way:U

[Metal Head]

Dazzler is no racist. I actually read his posts. Suggest you do the same. :cool:

I did HB and for that reason I said what I did:wink:. remember we are fortunate to be in a country that allows us free speech and I will ALWAYS say it the way I see it:2tsup:.

He, you & I are entiltled to say what we think. Just ask Jason A what it is like going around accusing fellow players are drug cheats.

I NEVER said Dazzler was a racist - how could I. I have never met the guy. I said I felt he came across (through his words) as a racist:wink:.

[Bleedin Thumb]

Just ask Jason A what it is like going around accusing fellow players are drug cheats.




Brilliant analogy... I hardly know what you mean by that, I recon you may have Bob scratching his head.

[silentC]

Is that Jason and the Argonauts? So Golden Fleece was a euphemism for Anabolic steroid?

[Honorary Bloke]

I did HB and for that reason I said what I did:wink:. remember we are fortunate to be in a country that allows us free speech and I will ALWAYS say it the way I see it:2tsup:.

He, you & I are entiltled to say what we think. Just ask Jason A what it is like going around accusing fellow players are drug cheats.

I NEVER said Dazzler was a racist - how could I. I have never met the guy. I said I felt he came across (through his words) as a racist:wink:.

That's fair dinkum. :) But I still think he is right. Of course, that's why we value free speech, as you say. But I really don't think he even comes across as a racist. Horses for courses. :cool:

[bitingmidge]

Just ask Jason A what it is like going around accusing fellow players are drug cheats.
Now there is a walking useless statistic if ever there was one!

P
:D

[Honorary Bloke]

Brilliant analogy... I hardly know what you mean by that, I recon you may have Bob scratching his head.

True. So true. :? :?

[journeyman Mick]

[quote/]Sorry Gra but you stated that the rate was going to stay as it was and it hasn't, so don't blame economists blame the person(s) who told you the porkie pie[\quote]

No porkie, just the tea leaves fell the wrong way:U



Tea leaves? :no: That's where you're going wrong :doh: . Tea leaves are only good for the weather, you need goat's entrails for fiscal forecasts.:D

Mick

[HappyHammer]

I dunno I'm black as the ace of spades and Dazzler was very nice to me:rolleyes: :U

HH.

[HappyHammer]

As far as the original post is concerned....

We have one spare room:q

Some current first home buyers and new car buyers seem to have a bling culture, where they can't afford to be seen buying a doer upper because their friend bought a McMansion they can't afford either.

I think the kids are playing keeping up with the Jones's except and they can't afford it. The kids who approach house buying and car finance with some room for manouvre financially will probably be better off in the short term, able to go out still, and in the long term as they are able to save, make improvements or pay lumps off the mortgage, equity is the key not the size of the house.

BTW my mum is one of 19 children and at any one time there were 10 of them in the family home which was a 3 bedroom terrace. Parents one room, boys another, girls the other.:oo: Luckily the boy / girl ratio is about 50/50.

HH.

[Gra]

Tea leaves? :no: That's where you're going wrong :doh: . Tea leaves are only good for the weather, you need goat's entrails for fiscal forecasts.:D

Mick

Was going to say chicken entrails but it didnt sound right...

[Driver]

I think the kids are playing keeping up with the Jones's except and they can't afford it.

You're right, of course, but there's nothing new about the phenomenon of materialism and status-consciousness. I can clearly recall asking my Dad what he meant when he used the expression "keeping up with the Jones's". I would have been about seven or eight years old at the time. I'm 60 now.

(Incidentally, the reason the expression had puzzled me so much was that we had neighbours whose surname was Jones and, mate, I couldn't work out why the hell anyone would want to try to keep up with them :oo:)

[Gingermick]

And then they lay crossways :p

And even worse, they fight in their sleep. Trying to hit each other across me.:((

[Sebastiaan56]

Gra,

Have you got any stock tips?

Sebastiaan

[Gra]

Gra,

Have you got any stock tips?

Sebastiaan

You saw my last tip, do you really want some from me????


Wrong market anyhow, i'm in used money not used companies

[Bleedin Thumb]

Back to the house thingy, I blame the government (alright I always do).
Well the government and the banks.

First home buyers grant......what a joke.
No deposit finance.............get real.
Baby bonus............What for?

Must admit I never got any of these handouts so I may be a lttle jealous too.:-

But seriously i think that when the next credit squeeze comes around...you know the recession we have to have...18% interest rates etc... there is going to be record numbers of casualties.

I think that it is best to be prepared for this situation by compromising your bank manager and letting them know you are not afraid of publishing the photos.:)

[dazzler]

Gee Dazzler it's about time you got yourself a real life and grow up in it. As it was proven by all the government people covering their bums hoping it will blow over that this was another porky pie. I said the fact was even given the lies you were still keen to see this guy go. Why would anyone in there right mind want an excellent Doctor to leave this country when there is a shortage. Thus it comes across to me (and maybe others) that you don't like this guy because of his colour, or is it you don't like Indians?

Your not getting off the hook that easy old son.

Maybe it means nothing to you to throw the racist tag. I dont like it.

So once again. Show me the evidence that I did not like the guy because of his colour or that he is an indian.

Prove it.

[AlexS]

I disagree with most of what Dazzler has to say on this topic, but I can't see that he's said anything racist.

[Driver]

I agree with Alex and a couple of the others. Dazzler hasn't said anything racist.

Metal Head, you should be careful about citing Akermanis as an exemplar of freedom of speech. Most of what he says is designed to be deliberately provocative for no other reason than to stir up controversy. It's an old and tired excuse to justify a personal attack on the grounds that you're just expressing yourself freely. Samuel Johnson said: "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel". He might equally have included people who use freedom of speech as an excuse for personal insults.

You're playing the man, not the ball. Accusing someone of racism without any real evidence is a nasty tactic. I can understand why Dazzler is demanding that you justify yourself. I reckon he's being very restrained. If you had accused me of racism in similar circumstances, I'd be a lot more outspoken.

[bitingmidge]

Oh come on you guys!! Open your eyes!!!


Let india deal with it?.

He didn't put a capital "I" in India!! Surely that's obvious to someone other than MH and I!!


P
:p

[dazzler]

Heres Dazzler spreading hate amongst the world;

Here he is handing out presents laced with smallpox

52593

Wheeling a drum of anthrax towards the local well

52594

Injecting acid into this kids eye

52595

Operation Racism - a complete succes

52596

:D

[SPIRIT]

Back to the house thingy, I blame the government (alright I always do).
Well the government and the banks.

First home buyers grant......what a joke.
No deposit finance.............get real.
Baby bonus............What for?

Must admit I never got any of these handouts so I may be a lttle jealous too.:-

But seriously i think that when the next credit squeeze comes around...you know the recession we have to have...18% interest rates etc... there is going to be record numbers of casualties.

I think that it is best to be prepared for this situation by compromising your bank manager and letting them know you are not afraid of publishing the photos.:)have cash in the bank and wait ,then jump into the house market when it is low sell when it goes up ,easy

stop buying junk you don't need CDs,new computors ,cars ,TV the size of a whole wall,smokeing ,drinking ,new cloths every year ,lunches ,cups of coffie for $3 wait to you get hope and have one for 5 cents,it all adds up

Metalhead just say sorry :~

[ian]

From the SMH:

On the day when a Reserve Bank meeting is expected to raise interest rates, new statistics reveal thousands are paying off loans on houses that are too big for them.

The ABS found that between 1994 and 2004, the average number people per household dropped from 2.7 to 2.5, but the average number of bedrooms had risen from 2.9 to 3.

In 2003-04, 77 per cent of households had one or more spare bedrooms and nearly all (97 per cent) of couple-only households had one or more spare bedrooms. At least 85 per cent of solo dwellers also had empty bedrooms in their homes.
By tying it to interest rates, what they are trying to say here is that people are foolishly paying off huge mortgages on bedrooms they don't need.

Don't any of these people have family or friends that live interstate/overseas who come to visit? Don't they have friends who like to come over for a few drinks and stay the night? Don't they have old computers/toys/boxes of junk to store?

I mean, if you took any notice of these pointy heads, where would the childless couple who don't want to live in an apartment block find a house with one bedroom? What about the young couple buying into the housing market and planning a family in a few year's time - are they supposed to live in a flat until the first baby comes along?

It's the weakest excuse for a story I've heard today!To go back to Silent's original observation...

the ABS is talking averages, so 2.5 people per household translates to a street where every odd numbered house contains a couple with no kids and every even numbered house a couple with 1 kid. At 3 bedrooms per house this means that the couple with the kid have a spare room for the grand parents to stay in when they drop in from 2 suburbs away, while the couple with no kids can accomodate at least 6 drunken friends (including the 2 who crashed on the lounge)

all a bit silly really when you talk averages.

more likely the hypothetical street has families like Wongo's (4 people 4 bedrooms); mine (3 people, 3 bed rooms – one of which is used as a study); my neighbour to the left (1 person, 3 bedrooms hasn't had a house guest in the 14 years we've been neighbours); neighbour to the right (mum plus 1 kid, 3 bedrooms one used as a study); guy across the road (dad plus 3 kids in 3 bedrooms); my in-laws (3 adults, 4 bedrooms);

in other words lots of permutations.

when you look more closely at the demographics,
"couple with no kids" is more likley to represent a couple with adult kids who have left home than a young couple who have yet to start a family.


as to huge unnecessary mortages, 20 years ago it was fairly common for the developer of a new suburb to place a covenant on all the blocks requiring that all the houses to be some minimum size — the unstated purpose was to keep out the "riff raff" only professionals (and plumbers!) would be able to afford to buy and build there. The option of starting with a two bedroom cottage which could be extended as the family came along was not an option. I have no evidence that this practice doesn't continue to this day.


ian

[bitingmidge]

I have no evidence that this practice doesn't continue to this day.
Like you have no evidence that there is no God you mean? :?

If I sent you details on say twenty new estates which did not have covenants, would that be evidence?

Of course some do have minimum size requirements, but they aren't in first home buyer territory, and it would be a rare house indeed that would be built to the minimum size requirement.

The size is driven by the market ie the purchaser demand and no one else!

Sad, isn't it?

P
:rolleyes:

[dazzler]

I reckon canberra is a great city to look at to see how small houses were in the 1920' and 30's and gradually got bigger.

Ainslie is one of the hot suburbs ATM and most are ex govt homes of about 9sq with 2 beds.

Dont think they had plasmas though :)

[ian]

If I sent you details on say twenty new estates which did not have covenants, would that be evidence?if the estates are on Sydney's fringe, yes
I'm also equating a covenant with those situations where the developer will sell you the block but you must pick your house from one of these 8 options
Of course some do have minimum size requirements, but they aren't in first home buyer territory, and it would be a rare house indeed that would be built to the minimum size requirement.funny thing about "new housing" estates in Sydney, especially in the North-west, a lot of buyers are trading up into their 2nd or 3rd home.
The size is driven by the market ie the purchaser demand and no one else!

Sad, isn't it?yes it's sad how people MUST have a house that is soo like their neighbours


ian

[Metal Head]

Your not getting off the hook that easy old son.

Maybe it means nothing to you to throw the racist tag. I dont like it.

So once again. Show me the evidence that I did not like the guy because of his colour or that he is an indian.

Prove it.

You sound like Jack Wilson (aka Jack Palance) in Shane. "Go on Shane (Alan Ladd) PROVE IT" and he did:wink:. They don't make them like they use to:(.

It appears to have been a problem in the NSW police force and may well still be but on a smaller scale:-

Racist attitudes in the community

The Hon. P. F. O'GRADY - One place to start, and one that would certainly please many Koori leaders, is the Police Service. Attitudes recently exhibited by some members of the Police Service are a disgrace. They deserve the greatest condemnation, but they are only a fraction of a much wider problem. For many non-white groups, especially Kooris, the police are a constant presence in their lives. When one reads what has been said in many thousands of pages of reports, both State and Federal, during the past few years, one learns that simply being an Aborigine in New South Wales means that one is a target of the police. I cite as one example of that the Koori people who were travelling in a nice red car in Redfern earlier this month and were pulled over by police. The police admitted that they suspected the car was stolen because they were not used to Koori people driving such cars.

It must be hard Sgt Dazzler working with colleagues who are racists?. I was bought up in an area that was a mixture of people from the West Indies, Pakistan, India etc I used to get my head & body punched occassionally because I had coloured friends so I know what it is like dealing with WHITE "HONKEY TONKS" - white trash. However, I also know there is god & bad people in every race on this Earth.

[Ashore]

"Go on Shane (Alan Ladd) PROVE IT" They don't make them like they use to:(.
You are Right for once this is also the movie where the line " A mans gotta do what a mans gotta do " is spoken never spoken by John Wayne I might add.


that simply being an Aborigine in New South Wales means that one is a target of the police. I cite as one example of that the Koori people who were travelling in a nice red car in Redfern earlier this month and were pulled over by police. The police admitted that they suspected the car was stolen because they were not used to Koori people driving such cars.

Long Bow and you Quote one case which you base your arguement that all police have racist tendencies,

My BIL an ambo when stationed in sydney could not attend a call in redfern unless they had a police escort due to the FACT that while attending people ambulances were attacked and looted and one almost turned over .

what were their names and if this did happen, and is not another urban myth I will happly go with them to lodge their comlaint though I fear you cannot name the individuals .

It must be hard Sgt Dazzler working with colleagues who are racists?. However, I also know there is god & bad people in every race on this Earth.
What a statement and I quote
there is god & bad people in every race on this Earth
When have you ever heard anyone on this forum make a claim that there is not.
Mate get it together you seem to think that because Dazzler is was a cop then he's racist , because he expresses his views and experiances that he is wrong.
Metal Head I have stayed out of a few discussions that have happened recently but I felt the need to respond to this one you in my opinion have overstepped the mark by using an unwarented slur calling Dazzler a Racist and you owe an apology

[bitingmidge]

funny thing about "new housing" estates in Sydney, especially in the North-west, a lot of buyers are trading up into their 2nd or 3rd home.
Not funny, just reinforces my view that it's the buyers driving the market.

People tend to forget, if buyers didn't want a product, it wouldn't exist.

What happens historically in areas with covenants, is that they covenant is soon dropped when the market turns. They are nothing more than a marketing tool, to attract like buyers!

Cheers,

P
:D

[Honorary Bloke]

The size is driven by the market ie the purchaser demand and no one else!

Sad, isn't it?

P
:rolleyes:

Absolutely true, Midge. But why does the free market make you sad?

[bitingmidge]

It must be hard Sgt Dazzler working with colleagues who are racists?.

Wake up to yourself MH! Whatever we believe we all have colleagues who are racist in some form or other, being an (ex) copper doesn't make Dazzler any different to the rest of us. We'd be stupid to think that there weren't one or two police in NSW who didn't hold prejudices, but then we'd be stupid to think that one or two people on this board didn't as well. Dazzler just hasn't done anything to indicate he's one of them.

Maybe you were flogged because your attitude was misread, just as I think (hope) it has been here.

The racist card is one of the easiest and most gutless ones to play if one is looking to distract one from the real issue in debate.

I know some kids who were pulled over in a green car the other night, just because they were having fun. Maybe Dazzler's a party pooper too!

cheers,

P
:D

[HappyHammer]

I was bought up in an area that was a mixture of people from the West Indies, Pakistan, India etc .
We must have lived on the same street except where I was bought up we had Bangladeshi as well. We also had the best Indian restaurants in the world. I know irrelevant but I miss the food.

HH.

[Bleedin Thumb]

I NEVER said Dazzler was a racist - how could I. I said I felt he came across (through his words) as a racist:wink:.


MH I hate to say this but you seem to be coming across as a nutter, I doubt you are so you best let this go.:no:

[Metal Head]

MH I hate to say this but you seem to be coming across as a nutter, I doubt you are so you best let this go.:no:

Think what you like BT do you think I care:no:. Who are you to judge wat type of person I am - you don't even know me nor does anyone else here.

[dazzler]

Hi all

I think my points been made.

Thanks for the support :D

cheers

dazzler

[silentC]

Who are you to judge wat type of person I am - you don't even know me nor does anyone else here.
Oh, the irony...

[bitingmidge]

Oh, the irony...
Isn't that the stuff you get from elephants??

P
:D

[silentC]

Only when they forget they've given it to you. :wink:

[Gra]

Isn't that the stuff you get from elephants??

P
:D

No thats what you get when you ask the wife "What you been doing all day", while she is standing in front of the ironing board :brick:

[dazzler]

Oh, the irony...

I missed that one :rolleyes:

[Metal Head]

Hi all

I think my points been made.

Thanks for the support :D

cheers

dazzler

[HappyHammer]

Mate why don't you leave it alone you're not doing yourself any favours:doh:

HH.

[Metal Head]

Mate why don't you leave it alone you're not doing yourself any favours:doh:

HH.

Why don't you stick to blowing bubbles:wink:. You were lucky last year Hammer let's see how fate plays it's hand this season.

[Cliff Rogers]

Play the ball, not the man. :~

[HappyHammer]

Why don't you stick to blowing bubbles:wink:. You were lucky last year Hammer let's see how fate plays it's hand this season.
We'll be safe this season have no fear Eggy and Curbs will get us through. Did you know we were the only team to do the double over Manure last year?

HH.

[Gingermick]

47.945% of posts in this thread have been off topic. :cool:

Thats a massive 1 in every 2.0857 posts !

[HappyHammer]

47.945% of posts in this thread have been off topic. :cool:

Thats a massive 1 in every 2.0857 posts !
Mick, You've got way too much time on your hands..:o

HH.

[Daddles]

47.945% of posts in this thread have been off topic. :cool:

Thats a massive 1 in every 2.0857 posts !

Did you know that 83.56% of all statistics quoted are made up on the spot?

Richard

[Gra]

Did you know that 83.56% of all statistics quoted are made up on the spot?

Richard


Thats about 50% correct

[Gingermick]

Did you know that 83.56% of all statistics quoted are made up on the spot?

Richard

But I counted. If anyone ever asks 'But Whos counting?', Tell 'em I am

Of course I'll have to go back now and review my calcs as we've had four more posts on thread.

[Gingermick]

Mick, You've got way too much time on your hands..:o

HH.


Well, I am a consultant:2tsup:

[HappyHammer]

Well, I am a consultant:2tsup:
That explains it, how much is this totally necessary analysis costing us?:U

HH.

[Gingermick]

$650 per character typed.

[dazzler]

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Hi all

I think my points been made.

Thanks for the support :D

cheers

dazzler
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- / message --><!-- attachments -->
<FIELDSET class=fieldset><LEGEND>Attached Thumbnails</LEGEND>http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=52708&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1186663501 (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=52708&d=1186663501)
</FIELDSET>
I imagined there would have been something phalic in there. :)

[Article99]

I can't believe half of what I've read in this thread. weak- the both of you. :((
Could have quite easily been contained to PM's flying backwards and forward, but it had to be a public spectacle in a completely unrelated thread. Bad form, gentleman. :~

Dammit.. now I can't even remember what the thread was originally about...

-----
Some moments later
--------------------

Now that I've gone back and read the first post... :no:

Statistics are generally only good for proving how much money can be wasted on boffins cooking them up. There's just no way they can take in the diversity of reasons in an entire neighbourhood, let alone the whole damn country. Right on, SilentC, I say. :2tsup:

[q9]

Why do people buy a newer car or a second car while struggling to pay off the mortgage is beyond me. Why?:doh:

Because we live in a free market economy and people are free to do as they choose.

If I was building a house, there is no way I would build anything smaller than 4 bedroom. My reasoning is quite simple - it will be easier to sell than a 3 bedroom, and wont cost all that much more. And downgrading later, wont hurt as much as trying to upgrade :wink:

Not that I would build a house. Just bought this 4 bedroom 30 year old home - tons of space. We've done our time living in cheap 2 bedroom units, thank you very much.:)

I don't really understand why young people (like 21-25) want to rush out and buy a home. Invariably they buy something small and not terribly exciting, only to want to upgrade later on. There is an insane need amongst some people to be part of the property market. Much better off renting until you know what you want and can afford it. Even then I think home ownership is highly over-rated.

[AlexS]

.... Even then I think home ownership is highly over-rated.

Ah yes, the tyranny of possession...where your possessions own you.

[dazzler]

I can't believe half of what I've read in this thread. weak- the both of you. :((
Could have quite easily been contained to PM's flying backwards and forward, but it had to be a public spectacle in a completely unrelated thread. Bad form, gentleman. :~



Hi mate

The fact is I was called a racist by a member in a public forum and have asked him to show the evidence in a public forum. If your gunna say something as filthy as that then you better prove it. Sadly the member would not respond in the thread it was posted in. If you said something like this in the pub you would cop a smack in the mouth.

Sorry if this upsets you.

BTW - I thought it was frowned upon to send nasty PM's to each other by the mods. May be wrong.

cheers

[dazzler]

Because we live in a free market economy and people are free to do as they choose.

If I was building a house, there is no way I would build anything smaller than 4 bedroom. My reasoning is quite simple - it will be easier to sell than a 3 bedroom, and wont cost all that much more. And downgrading later, wont hurt as much as trying to upgrade :wink:

Not that I would build a house. Just bought this 4 bedroom 30 year old home - tons of space. We've done our time living in cheap 2 bedroom units, thank you very much.:)

I don't really understand why young people (like 21-25) want to rush out and buy a home. Invariably they buy something small and not terribly exciting, only to want to upgrade later on. There is an insane need amongst some people to be part of the property market. Much better off renting until you know what you want and can afford it. Even then I think home ownership is highly over-rated.

However homes double in value about every seven years. It can be an expensive wait. :(

[bitingmidge]

Invariably they buy something small and not terribly exciting, only to want to upgrade later on. There is an insane need amongst some people to be part of the property market. Much better off renting until you know what you want and can afford it. Even then I think home ownership is highly over-rated.

Sounds like one of my tenants! :D

I've had people with that sort of view contribute substantially to my well-being, so I think I should just be thankful, agree and get on with life!

HOWEVER.

There is an insane equation amongst some people to think that small can't be exciting or that big is better. That's the problem. Instead of accepting small and comfortable, they want to live like Paris Hilton.

Believe it or not, we paid $10,000 for our first house. Took out a 25 year loan too, and didn't think we'd ever see the day when we'd own it. We sold it after two years for $17,000. The profit was equivalent to about our combined year's salary at the time.

I've seen all the sums, and the only people who actually believe that they are better off renting, have convinced themselves that buying houses is only for intellectual inferiors, or they have a vested interest in flogging investment products.

Let's just for a minute pretend that over 25 years, houses increase in value at the same rate of inflation. Let's also pretend, to be fair, that rent does so as well.

Interest rates on the other hand fluctuate, but let's just say they average twice the inflation rate. In very crude terms given the above set of numbers, one could work out a discounted comparison between renting and buying. Without doing the sums, I'm willing to bet that at about the ten year mark, repayments and rent will be the same, and for the last fifteen years, repayments will be less, and after 25, well you guessed it, Mr Renter is still there, while Mr Home Owner is in the south of France having a holiday, or driving round Australia for a year or two, with tenants in his house paying for it all.

Of course there are strategies which will improve that situation remarkably, and in the event that house prices increase by say twice the rate of inflation, and rent increases at the same rate, well Mr Renter is in a spot of bother after that ten year mark. He's actually spending all the money Mr Investment advisor told him to buy investment product with, on rent.

Or am I wrong?

P
:?

[Gingermick]

We're currently paying around 30% less to buy my home than we would have to pay if we were renting it.

[Bleedin Thumb]

Sounds like one of my tenants! :D
:?



I can only dream of the day when I become a slum landlord.:D

[Ashore]

I can only dream of the day when I become a slum landlord.:D
BT it aint that easy Some of the tennants you get can be straight from Hell and after all the costs etc if you clear 4% PA on your investment you are lucky:C

Dazzler its not homes that double in value every 7 years its invested cash if you can get a touch over 10%:D

[Bleedin Thumb]

I just want to get my own back after all those years of renting.

"what do ya mean that hole in the roofs an inconvenience"
"If you want me to replace that stove I'll have to increase the rent"
"OK the toilets broken, you'lle just have to use a bucket for a while"
" yeh I'll fix that next week:wink: "

Man what a power trip that could be!:D

[Ashore]

What do you mean your not paying rent till that fence pailing is replaced

So I get to keep the bond after 12 months fighting it won't cover the cost of repainting/ carpet ( from where they had pot plants without trays under them :doh: ) etc

What do you mean you wont pay rent and you won't leave :((

Not all however others were fantastic :2tsup:

[Bleedin Thumb]

Hey, didn't I rent a house of you once?:D

[bitingmidge]

if you clear 4% PA on your investment you are lucky
Owning an investment house (which is different to owning your own) is absolutely a long term investment.

Don't even worry about getting a return on the total value on the way through, if you do well that's a bonus! In any case, don't forget "your investment" is actually the money you've outlayed (your deposit!), not the total capital value.

And it takes a certain amount of courage to be a generous landlord too.

Roof leak = three week's rent.
Fence Repairs = another week.
Stove gone? Hmmm there goes next month!

All that in the hope that your tenant will treat you with the same courtesy you show them! :wink:

This argument however, isn't about being a landlord, or maybe it is now if q9 and his mates are looking for somewhere to live for the long haul! :D

cheers,

P

[q9]

I've seen all the sums, and the only people who actually believe that they are better off renting, have convinced themselves that buying houses is only for intellectual inferiors, or they have a vested interest in flogging investment products.

Let's just for a minute pretend that over 25 years, houses increase in value at the same rate of inflation. Let's also pretend, to be fair, that rent does so as well.

Interest rates on the other hand fluctuate, but let's just say they average twice the inflation rate. In very crude terms given the above set of numbers, one could work out a discounted comparison between renting and buying. Without doing the sums, I'm willing to bet that at about the ten year mark, repayments and rent will be the same, and for the last fifteen years, repayments will be less, and after 25, well you guessed it, Mr Renter is still there, while Mr Home Owner is in the south of France having a holiday, or driving round Australia for a year or two, with tenants in his house paying for it all.

...

Or am I wrong?


You're partly wrong. You haven't taken into account rates, insurance, interest rate fluctuations and maintenance. And the decreased flexibility that comes with ownership. Fine if you know you'll never ever move, but if you do...

Anyhow, I did buy a house, but overall I don't view it as an "investment". Pretty much entirely a lifestyle choice and I really, really, REALLY hate real estate agents :)

Now I don't flog investment products, but I do invest in other things. Overall I've done quite well out of that with money I had (no borrowings), plus I have been able to keep liquidity.

Up to each individual what they want to do with their money - no argument here. All I know is that we are substantially better off having waited to purchase. The repayments, though high by some standards, is actually a fairly small and manageable proportion of our incomes. Unlike friends of ours that bought a house several years ago, for much less than we paid, repayments are still quite low compared to ours, but their overall income to debt ratio is scary. Mostly that is because they've had to borrow for everything...cars, furniture, etc. We took our time and own all that stuff already.

Anyhow, I'm not at all bothered if anyone agrees with me or not. We've done what suits us, and it has worked out well for us. That's all I care about :)

[dazzler]

Dazzler its not homes that double in value every 7 years its invested cash if you can get a touch over 10%:D


You is right.

Except whenever I invest in land it goes backwards :rolleyes:

[bitingmidge]

Mostly that is because they've had to borrow for everything...cars, furniture, etc.
Well see that's where we really differ. They didn't have to borrow a zac, they chose to!



Anyhow, I'm not at all bothered if anyone agrees with me or not. We've done what suits us, and it has worked out well for us. That's all I care about :)
Sorry if I gave the impression that I was out to bother you. Doing what suits is all one needs to do.

Yes I did take into account rates and all those things, and don't particularly want to get into a fight over that either.

You are correct, the house you live in is NOT an investment, it's a lifestyle assett. It's just that when you actually get to own it, then you don't pay rent at all!

That means living in the house I do for instance, I theoretically get another $400 bucks or more a week (or whatever I'd be paying in rent) to invest without borrowing (or to buy tools!):wink: or if I was clever, to service further investment debt.

That sort of dough just isn't available to normal households paying rent!

Cheers,

P
:D :D

[Cliff Rogers]

...That means living in the house I do for instance, I theoretically get another $400 bucks or more a week (or whatever I'd be paying in rent) to invest without borrowing (or to buy tools!):wink: or if I was clever, to service further investment debt.

That sort of dough just isn't available to normal households paying rent!
......
Renting is like smoking. :2tsup:

[craigb]

Renting is like smoking. :2tsup:

Smoking is like renting?