Electrics & Plumbing - What Am I Allowed To Do?

[zeroseven]

Hello

First post here. Just bought a house in Sydney. I need to do some electrical work and plumbing.

I've been reading various threads and as I understand it I can do no electical work myself (I'm from the UK originally and have been renting here for 4 years so have had no need to look into this kind of thing before). I'm not even allowed to change a single socket switch to a double socket or change a light fitting, is that correct?

But I am allowed to have an electrical power point in the bathroom near the sink and a normal lightswitch :D

What about plumbing? Am I allowed to change the toilet, shower, bath and kitchen sink?

Cheers

[JDarvall]

Well, uno, you can do what ever you like ... not as if you'll ever really get in trouble with the law.....its just a matter of whether or not you'll do it right and not kill yourself. :D

I do almost all myself, because tradesmen cost a fortune, will rip you off on occation (because they can....' who else is gonna fix it for you' ), and because most things I feel all you need is common sense.

but , uno, thats all probably considered bad advice...yeh, so

Do yourself a favour !......be smart !.... don't be an idiot:no: .....call the professionals !

[mick101]

Hello

But I am allowed to have an electrical power point in the bathroom near the sink and a normal lightswitch :D

Cheers

Section 7.1.2.2 other fixed water containers (b) (i) (A) (B) Zone 1 (i) (A) (B) for water containers with a capacity not exceeding 45lt. This is relevent after observing 1.7.3.5 & 1.7.3.6

Mate get a sparkie in. There is a bit more to it than people think.

[Honorary Bloke]

I think I'll order in a pizza and just sit back and watch. :D :D :D :wink:

[mick101]

I think I'll order in a pizza and just sit back and watch. :D :D :D :wink:
Meatasaurous for me. You got some home brew ?

[DavidG]

Meatasaurous for me too.
Just Coke zero to drink though. I am on a diet.:roll:

[Studley 2436]

In his seminal work DIY for Knuckleheads Scott Cam put it out very clearly, "Electrical is not for Knuckleheads"

Good Point I reckon, imagine if you do yourself and it causes a fire, would insurance payout on it?

BUT there is lots of stuff you can do that will save money when the Sparky gets there. Wires have to be threaded through for instance. You can do that. Sockets light switches have to be fixed to the wall after they are wired up. You can do that. Stretching those wires out and getting them into the right place can take a lot so you have the chance to save some dough there.

Plumbing I would feel pretty OK with but I am a fitter and turner (once upon a time anyway) so I can braze and muddle my way through that. Mind you I have burnt holes in lots of copper to learn how to do it. You might be making a headache for yourself.

Studley

[chrisp]

Scott Cam put it out very clearly, "Electrical is not for Knuckleheads"

But what if you're not a knucklehead:rolleyes:

[zeroseven]

Thanks for the replies. I changed sockets and light switches in the UK, there really is nothing to it and nothing to go wrong, in my opinion.

However due to the possibility of an insurance claim not being paid out, I'd rather get someone in because I really don't see the point in trying to save a few hundred $.

However it's so extreme to allow you to do nothing. One of our light switches is cracked, not very safe, but I can't change it.

Any ideas how much would an electrician charge per hour in Sydney? I need some ceiling fans taken down, some light switches and some single sockets changed to double sockets.

And I'm allowed a socket next to a sink so long as it only contains a small amount of water :? So, legally, small amounts of water and electricity get on ok. That's good to know. :wink:

Plumbing - Are there any rules that say I'm not allowed to plumb in my own bathroom?

[Studley 2436]

I think the law is about being paid to do it. You have to be licensed etc to do it professionally. If you are not look out. Doing it for yourself well why not.

As far as changing sockets well if you know how why not.

Studley

[NCArcher]

Sorry Studley but it has nothing to do with being paid or doing it professionally. You are not allowed to carry out work on fixed wiring or equipment if you are not licensed.

[Studley 2436]

There you go

Studley

[Gra]

I think I'll order in a pizza and just sit back and watch. :D :D :D :wink:


Got some beer here, there you go boys, anyone got a beanbag this could get fun:D:U

[silentC]

Plumbing - Are there any rules that say I'm not allowed to plumb in my own bathroom?
Yes

there really is nothing to it and nothing to go wrong
I agree that changing sockets and switches is not complicated. Make sure that the wires go back where they came from and Bob's your uncle.

The question is, how do you know that what was there in the first place was done right?

The problem here, and this has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum, is that regardless of how simple it might seem, it's against the law to do it. So, you can follow the advice of others here and go for it if you want, just be aware that what you are doing is illegal and if someone dobs you in, you will cop a fine and have to pay a sparky to certify/fix what you have done.

[zeroseven]

SilentC - I know what you're saying and I agree. I'm not going to do the electrics myself, that's why I posted in the first place to check exactly what I can do - Nothing.

And your 'Yes' reply to my plumbing question. So I'm not allowed to fit a new bathroom suite? Or a kitchen sink? A plumber has to do it :? Is that what you're saying? Even if I use the existing connections?

[juan]

Well this one is definately going to draw a lot of replies.

As an electrician I would naturally advise do any thing that does not involve connecting wires. OK to change the light bulbs.

Plumbing well that is of interest to me too. I rang the Office of the Technical Regulator on four occassions to clarify what I could and could not do as I like to play by the rules. I got replies like.. "not sure" "I will have to ask someone else" "Do u mind holding they should be back soon" "Could u ring back later" "U can not do anything I think" "U can connect cold water only" "U can connect cold water if it is less than 25mm pipe and not connected to hot water" "I will get someone to ring u back" That was 3 weeks ago and I am still waiting for them to ring back.

I paid a plumber to install a new sewer, gas main and water main and am still fighting for a Certificate of Compliance 2 weeks later despite asking for it on 2 occassions. Interestingly this was a large job with 50m of trenches and located quite near their office but they did not attend despite an inspection being booked by the plumber. Mind you it was a Friday arvo.

Good luck and if you find out anything on plumbing let me know because the Office of the Technical Regulator has not got a smick.

[silentC]

And your 'Yes' reply to my plumbing question. So I'm not allowed to fit a new bathroom suite? Or a kitchen sink? A plumber has to do it Is that what you're saying? Even if I use the existing connections?
It doesn't seem to be as clear cut for plumbing as it is for electrical. I know that plumbing is also a protected trade, in as much as you can't do it in a commercial situation without a license. I'm not sure exactly what you can and can't do in your own home though, although I'm pretty certain that you would not be allowed to connect anything to the sewer, gas or water mains without a ticket.

I've heard people say you're not allowed to change a tap washer. That to me would be a bit over the top but, as I say I'm not sure. I had a brief look for the legislation but couldn't find anything relating to householders that would be similar to the Electricity Act that we have in NSW.

[DavidG]

Pass me another slice of pizza please.....

[zeroseven]

Sounds like I might need to make a few phones calls then to find out. Had the plumber around yesterday to fit a new pressure release valve on our hot water tank. Just been outside to check it and it's dripping where he connected it to the tank.

So I pay $200 for the professional to come round to fix it in 10 minutes and he can't even get that right. And soon I'll have to open my house up to other professionals, I just can't wait.

[chrisp]

it's dripping where he connected it to the tank.

It takes years of training and experience to make it drip just so...:rolleyes:

[zeroseven]

It takes years of training and experience to make it drip just so...:rolleyes:

:D

Just rang them, they're not sorry, but they are coming back to sort it. I don't think it's the training or experience, it's the 14kms of tape he put around it before tightening it up. "Just a bit of tape" he said, 15 minutes later he was still winding the tape around.

[jags]

i love this topic .....the argument has so many holes in it insurance companies must be loving it .
"sorry sir we believe that the person before the person before you that brought the house you now own or should i say did own before it burnt down installed the points himself and as a result 10 year down the track (now) it has shorted and burnt your house down so we are not paying .''

I feel if you know what you are doing do it ,if not get somebody that does or do what i do work around the problem ....see pic .. screw paying $3000 to remove the wall and then on top of that having to get a plumber in to disconected the water and a sparky in to disconect the power ...


Rob

[silentC]

I feel if you know what you are doing do it ,if not get somebody that does or do what i do work around the problem ....see pic .. screw paying $3000 to remove the wall and then on top of that having to get a plumber in to disconected the water and a sparky in to disconect the power ...
Go for your life, mate. No-one is stopping you. Good luck with it.

Just a question though. How do you know that you know what you are doing?

[Ruddigar]

Is there any garlic bread left?

[chrisp]

How do you know that you know what you are doing?

How does any one? Seems this one is a bit of a paradox to me - there is always more to know.

[silentC]

Sorry, I was being a bit facetious. Spending too much time arguing on other threads.

I guess there are people around who think they know, and others who really do. The only way to know you know is to have the bit of paper I suppose, although that doesn't necessarily prove much, but I suppose it's better than open slather. Isn't it?

[jags]

<TABLE class=tborder style="BORDER-TOP- 0px" cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR title="Post 557931" vAlign=top><TD class=alt2>Just a question though. How do you know that you know what you are doing?</TD></TR><TR><TD class=thead colSpan=2>2nd Aug 2007 01:58 PM</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

i think you confused my point ..

But it's called learning the same reason you go to school the same reason tradies do an appreticeship . That 's how i know what i know . If a sparky or plumber comes and does a job and i think that in the future i could do that then i will watch and ask him question about how he did it .

i think if you ask all the people on this forum how they learnt the answer will be the same ...

if you look at the pic i attached i have not touched the water or light switch . hens knowing what i don't know .

The trouble starts by not knowing what you don't know ..

rob

[silentC]

I don't want to get into all this again. There's another thread on here that goes into great detail on all this. I'll leave it up to you whether you read it or not...

[JDarvall]

just be aware that what you are doing is illegal and if someone dobs you in, you will cop a fine and have to pay a sparky to certify/fix what you have done.

oh, get real banana peal. :D. Like to read the stats on that.

I won't do something(and get a pro instead), not because of some kind of completely unrealistic chance of getting caught, but because of a good chance I might stuff it up.

[MrFixIt]

Hi

I love this subject too :)

Essentially, in Australia you are not allowed to do ANYTHING if you don't have a license.

In the UK things are quite different, maybe they think that home owners have a few brains! (I came from Liverpool UK) 44 years ago, aged 14. At that age I had already changed some electrical plugs/fittings for my dad.

I have NOT stopped since. As I have stated in previous posts elsewhere in this forum, if I feel comfortable about doing the job, whatever it is, I do it myself. After sooo many years of DIY'ing and learning soo much about different trades most of the general DIY around the home is simple.

So, IMHO, if you have the experience then do it. IF you need a little knowledge, like how close to a sink can you put a powerpoint then ask, BUT IMHO if you NEED to ask such a question then maybe you're just not quite cut out to do the work as most of this is common sense stuff.

I have done all my own plumbing and electrical work for years. Do it correctly and there are no problems.

[m2c1Iw]

I think I'll order in a pizza and just sit back and watch. :D :D :D :wink:

Any pizza left I came in late I could use a beer as well thanks:D

[Gra]

Any pizza left I came in late I could use a beer as well thanks:D

yeah, getting a little cold, pull up a bean bag, while your up get a beer from the fridge for me mate thanks

[zeroseven]

I'm amazed at the response this is provoking. As I said earlier I think I'm going to get the electrician in to remove the ceiling fans etc. Even though I've tackled simple electrics in the UK, I might as well get someone in to sort it and then I know it's right (Well it'd bl00dy well better be :D )

As far as plumbing goes. Replacing the existing bathroom, I think I'll be doing that myself. Why I need a plumber is beyond me. I'm a law abiding kind of person, but do I really need someone to come in and replace an existing sink or to replace a tap washer. I've tackled this job many times before without problems and I'm more than comfortable to do it.

Think I might have a beer and a slice of that pizza myself if there's any left....

[DavidG]

We will put a call out to Dominos.
What is it. 5 Supreme and 4 Meateaters and one slab on the way back .:2tsup:

[jags]

while your at it david check if they still have the deal with the four pack of peters drum sticks ... .i think there's still life in this babe ..

...what about de-wireing a house are you infact aloud to do this i am getting my place rewired (something i do not know how to do ) but am i aloud to rip the old lines out so the new ones can be put in place i also have a fan that i am removing am i aloud to do this ?????


rob

[smitthhyy]

while your at it david check if they still have the deal with the four pack of peters drum sticks ... .i think there's still life in this babe ..

...what about de-wireing a house are you infact aloud to do this i am getting my place rewired (something i do not know how to do ) but am i aloud to rip the old lines out so the new ones can be put in place i also have a fan that i am removing am i aloud to do this ?????


rob

You mention that your getting your place re-wired and it's something you don't know how to do. Fair enough. So why would you go and rip out the wiring that is there? Is it live? How do you know if it is live or not? How do you know your not going to kill yourself by handling or doing it wrong?

I'm all for DIY where it makes sense. Eg run the new cable. Electrician's I use are more than happy to have me do that as it's the pain part for them and they are usually more than happy to tell you what to do (ie how far apart do you need to put cable clips, run the cable along the side of the timber in the roof, dont run it parallel to phone or data cables within 100mm etc etc. But going an ripping out what is there (ie de-installing, go make sure it's not live first or ask the sparky to check for you.)

[Yonnee]

Psshhhhhtt!! *Takes sip, pulls up chair*
"Any pizza left?"

Here's a thought. Years ago, when doing a course for the C.T.I.A (Caravan Trades Industries Association) Roadworthy scheme, we were told that 'technically', anyone can work-on/repair an appliance. If it can be unplugged from the wall, it's an appliance. (If it's hardwired in, like your oven, you can't touch it!) Therefore, 'technically' a caravan is an appliance, even though there are usually hardwired power points run throughout the van's interior.

So does that mean, while my shed just has an extension lead running out to it, I can wire the rest of it up, and until it's actually connected to the meter box, it's an appliance??

And as for knowing what I'm doing... A father who's an Electrical Engineer with a PHD and more than 30 years working in that field, is still not "legally" allowed to touch 240/415 Volt wiring???

[DavidG]

Yonnee
That would mean that you could do all your own house wiring if the supply came from your own generator and the lead was plugged in.

Sorry but they caught up with that one in the latest batch of changes. The answer is Nope......:~ :C :no:

[silentC]

I have done all my own plumbing and electrical work for years. Do it correctly and there are no problems.
You guys just don't get it at all, do you?

It's not a question of whether or not people have the ability to do it themselves. It doesn't matter what they do in the UK or the US. It's not a question of what I do or you do in our own homes. It's a question of whether you should be coming onto an open public forum and encouraging people to break the law. It's just staggering.

A guy comes on and says "what am I allowed to do myself". The answer to that is clearly and unequivocably "nothing". None of you can debate that. You're not allowed to change a socket, wire up your own lights, install your own hard wired oven. It's all illegal. The answer to the guy's question is "nothing".

But that's not good enough for some of you. You have to come on and impress us all with how you blantantly go ahead and do your own wiring anyway. And then your advice is "hey, if you think you know what you are doing, go ahead and do it, I say". That is just dumb. Irresponsible. Bad advice.

Stop and think about it for a minute.

[Honorary Bloke]

And then your advice is "hey, if you think you know what you are doing, go ahead and do it, I say". That is just dumb. Irresponsible. Bad advice.

Okay Silent. You win. Close this thread up now. Ozzies will apparently just cave in and do what Little Johnny says. Or whoever. So there is no room for reasoned debate about whether or not the laws are silly. It just IS. I agree it is illegal. I do not agree it is rational. Why not work for change instead of just saying No Can Do? :)

[silentC]

This is not the place to lobby for a change in legislation. I can assure you that little Johnny is not reading this.

I think the thread asked a valid question. People coming here from the UK and elsewhere don't know what they can and can't do. I think the original poster has asked a very valid and smart question. What can I do? How many people ask that before leaping in?

As I've argued until I'm blue in the face, it's not that I agree with the laws, it's not that I have never broken them, it's not that I don't realise that plenty of people are capable of doing their own wiring, many probably better than a licensed sparkie would.

It is simply that, as an illegal activity, I don't feel that we should be advising people to ignore the regulations and go ahead and do it anyway. That's all. Simple, really.

[chrisp]

Why not work for change instead of just saying No Can Do? :)

I'm all for change.


This is not the place to lobby for a change in legislation.

On the contrary Silent, I think this is an excellent place to start a process of change. The very fact that we have people questioning the justification for the electrical regulations in Australia is an excellent start for the process of change. We should be discussing the justifications for the regulations and why we are out of kilter with the US and UK (who seem to have better safety outcomes!)

[Honorary Bloke]

Well, fair enough. And of course Little Johnny is not reading this thread. And even if he were (is that Subjunctive or Future Perfect? I always get confused). I realise we are not going to change the world as we know it, but for heavan's (sp?) sake, please don't get blue in the face. You are too valuable to the Forum to lose to a stroke. :wink: :)

[BTW, I have been known to be a possum stirrer. :D I learned it from Cliff.]

[silentC]

On the contrary Silent, I think this is an excellent place to start a process of change.
OK, fair enough. Yes we should discuss it here. I just don't believe that the discussion should be along the lines of "I've been doing my own wiring for years and if I can do it, so can you."

It only ever seems to come up when people ask questions like this one. So let's have a thread on why we should change the legislation.

[silentC]

for heavan's (sp?) sake, please don't get blue in the face.
I don't really get blue in the face. Just a little bit red sometimes :)

It's funny, in person people know when not to take me seriously because they can see the look on my face. I probably come across like a Nazi on here. Oh well, it's time for coffee. Oops, there goes the blood pressure again...

[Honorary Bloke]

. I probably come across like a Nazi on here.

Nein mein Fuhrer. Sie sint eine "pussycat." :D :D

[silentC]

Go easy there Bob :p

[Honorary Bloke]

Go easy there Bob :p

Good idea. I've had my tablet and now I'll have a lie down. :p :wink:

[JDarvall]

You guys just don't get it at all, do you?

.

:? nup. :no: .and its so stagggggggggering that I don't.

So I'll call a pro for know on. Pay the $100 up front fee etc everytime some kid puts too much toilet paper down the toilet, or I need a light bulb changed. Better to be safe than sorry.

Why is it legal to change a light bulb yourself ? Couldn't I die when I take the light bulb out then accidently slip my finger in the socket . jeeeeesus. I COULD DIE :oo: Light bulb changing should be illegal too. I mean we're not even told on the light bulb packets NOT to stick your finger in the socket! :oo: At least they could tell us to turn off the mains power first just to be on the safe side.

Just as there's people out there who arn't capable of changing switches in walls, there would be people who can't change light bulbs. WHO SHOULDN'T EVER DO IT ! So, I definetly reakon light bulb changing should be illegal by anyone other than a fully trained electrician. So, we can ensure that those people will never ever miss their nose and accidently lodge it instead in that light bulb socket.

I'm going to stop jaywalking too uno. Its illegal. And uno what, when my cars accross the road, instead of doing what I normally do and just cross the road to get to it, I'm going to walk 2 blocks to find a zebra crossing (so its safe to cross), cross, then walk back those 2 blocks to my car. That way I can be certain that I won't get hurt, and most importantly that I don't break the law.

:)

[silentC]

See, you still don't get it do ya? You haven't understood a word I've written. You're still arguing as if you think I'm saying the laws, such as they are, are wonderful.

I couldn't give a rats what you do. Jaywalk, do your own wiring who cares? I do all of the above and more. What I'm objecting to is people coming on here advising others to break the law. Dumb.

[JDarvall]

I do all of the above and more.

:oo: :oo: :oo: whhhaaaaaaat ! you jaywalk. :oo:

[silentC]

Shyte yeah. I live in a country town. Everyone does it, don't they? No-one ever gets booked, it's just a dumb law that nobody ever gets fined for :wink:

BTW I rang a guy from the Dept of Fair Trading in NSW about this topic a couple of months ago and he told me that householders quite often get busted and fined. His words "happens all the time". I have no stats on it, just passing on what he said...

I met someone who got fined for jaywalking once too.

[chrisp]

I met someone who got fined for jaywalking once too.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought jaywalking is when you choose not to use a proper crossing that is within something like 50m(?) of where your are. If there was no nearby crossing within that distance, you are allowed to cross the road - with care. So just maybe you are not jaywalking?

[silentC]

Crossing at a light controlled pedestrian crossing when the little man is red.

[JDarvall]

I met someone who got fined for jaywalking once too.

So, why do you risk it yourself ? its breaking the law, and what you've just said is encouraging others to think that its ok.



BTW I rang a guy from the Dept of Fair Trading in NSW about this topic a couple of months ago and he told me that householders quite often get busted and fined. His words "happens all the time". I have no stats on it, just passing on what he said...

yeh, I agree that no doubt it happens. but I betya, your chances of getting in trouble with the law would up there with say your chances of getting hit by lightning or whatever.

I agree that encouraging people to break the law is probably not a good thing, so I can see your concerns, but as you'd know, you'd have to be a mug to follow it sometimes. Better IMO, to focus on attaching those switch wires right. Gota keep your mind on the job eh. Don't want to be distracted by any thoughts of getting caught. :D

[chrisp]

Crossing at a light controlled pedestrian crossing when the little man is red.

Yep - that's a no no.

I saw someone caught by a cop controlling a major intersection in Melbourne one time. The cop told him to go back to the side he started from. The guy argued that it would be shorter and quicker to continue to the other side. I liked the cop's response "Continue across and I'll give you a ticket, or go back and consider it a warning". Good old seat of your pants diplomacy!

[silentC]

So, why do you risk it yourself ? its breaking the law, and what you've just said is encouraging others to think that its ok.

Have you not read my signature line? Hmmm??

Look, all I'm saying is that every time we get one of these threads, as far as I'm concerned the reply should be "get a sparky" because that's the responsible thing to say, I reckon. If you want to have a debate about how things should be, I'm all for it. I agree. I wish I could go to TAFE and do a course and get a bit of paper that says I can wire my own house.

If it was a thread about jaywalking, I would say "it's illegal to cross when the little man is red and you can be fined for doing it" end of story. I'm not going to say "but if you want to do it, I'll tell you how to get away with it" or "don't worry, you wont get caught, I do it all the time".

The chances of someone getting hit by a car are probably somewhat higher than getting electrocuted I suppose, but still, it's illegal and things can go pear-shaped, sometimes quite badly.

[boban]

See, you still don't get it do ya? You haven't understood a word I've written. You're still arguing as if you think I'm saying the laws, such as they are, are wonderful.

I couldn't give a rats what you do. Jaywalk, do your own wiring who cares? I do all of the above and more. What I'm objecting to is people coming on here advising others to break the law. Dumb.


I've resisted and not posted on the IQ thread or the religion one but I can't do it any longer.

What you don't get is that doing it is illegal but discussing it is not. I can tell you all about it, and it wont be illegal. Our NZ friends could even legally act on any information given.

This perpetual argument is somewhat tiresome, but suffice to say that we (those who don't mind discussing electricity) realise that to do your own wiring is illegal (even running the wires). How is giving someone the knowledge on how it all works "advising" them to break the law. It's not, the information is readily available without breaking the law. So discussing this information cannot be said to be illegal.

Tell me silent, if I post this:

Red or Brown Wire = Live, Active or Positive

Black or Blue Wire = Neutral or Negative

Green/Yellow Wire = Earth

Have I just advised someone to break the law? You've told us before how you picked it up so what is posted here (on this forum) that is so objectionable.

Perhaps we should all preface our comments by saying "if you were in NZ you could do this legally..."

Or is it just that you like to fish Silent?:wink:

[silentC]

Well, uno, you can do what ever you like ... not as if you'll ever really get in trouble with the law.....its just a matter of whether or not you'll do it right and not kill yourself.

Doing it for yourself well why not.

As far as changing sockets well if you know how why not.

I feel if you know what you are doing do it

So, IMHO, if you have the experience then do it.

Do it correctly and there are no problems.


I've resisted and not posted on the IQ thread or the religion one but I can't do it any longer.


If you've got something to say, don't hold back. I promise I wont cry.

[boban]

Yep, that's encouraging someone to break the law as is telling them to do the grunt work by running wires etc. That's not the point I'm making. I think you know that, but perhaps I shouldn't have used that quote to make the point.

You said that the blanket answer to these questions should be "get a sparky". That is the part I disagree with. For mine, we should be able to discuss the issue then let the person decide for themselves what they are going to do.

Not all of us need the cotton wool approach.

[boban]

If you've got something to say, don't hold back. I promise I wont cry.

I forgot to add the :D after that. In any event I had nothing of merit to add to those threads.

[silentC]

OK, I can break this debate down into two fundamental points of view which I hold:

1. Doing your own wiring is illegal in this country for better or for worse. I believe that the lines I quoted above are intended to make the reader think that it's OK to do it anyway. From a responsible point of view, I think it is wrong, given the fact that this is a public forum, not a chat around the table at the local pub between mates.

2. I think there are people who definitely should not attempt it anyway, even if it wasn't. For two reasons: a) some people just don't have the intuitive understanding required. Not every sparky gets through his apprenticeship. Some people just don't get it. It's not a question of intelligence, but some people's brains are wired differently. b) a lot of people are very slapdash about adhering to standards - sloppy workmanship - she'll be right mate. Yes there are trades like that, but at least their work has to be inspected.

I know a bloke who is no doubt in the genius end of the scale in IQ. He is a very intelligent chap. But there are some things that are totally logical to me that he just does not get. I would be very afraid of getting him to wire up a point, let alone an entire house.

I understand the desire to discuss these things. I think it's a bit hypocritical to accept on the one hand that it's illegal but to help people out anyway, but life is full of contradictions. I'm presenting a strictly above board approach, I know that. It's pedantic, I can't help it, that's the way I'm wired. I'm also an argumentative SOB. Sometimes I take the opposing view to see where it goes.

We're never going to agree, so I'll just go on saying "get a sparky" and you guys keep doing what you're doing. If the reader (who could be anyone of a million people out there) makes a decision based on the information presented, then we can ask no more or no less.

Thank you, and good night!

[DavidG]

See (http://www.electrical-online.com/) :roll:

[silentC]

That guy is an optimist!

As far as the liability issue goes, I always attach legally drafted disclaimer statements and God willing, I hope to avoid any litigation over well-intended guidance. There are pages on the Internet that will describe in detail how to make bombs and weapons of mass destruction. I would hope that they would be targeted by litigation before myself, or any of my many other colleagues on the net who provide helpful advice on any subject that they feel qualified to assist with.

And he's a Canadian!

[wonderplumb]

(long low whistle)...................
what topic are we on again??????????

[DavidG]

Shall I pop out for some more pizza?

[Yonnee]

Yonnee
That would mean that you could do all your own house wiring if the supply came from your own generator and the lead was plugged in.

COOL!!!:2tsup:


Sorry but they caught up with that one in the latest batch of changes. The answer is Nope......:~ :C :no:

Oh well... It's been a few years since I did that course.



Yep, that's encouraging someone to break the law as is telling them to do the grunt work by running wires etc

Huh!!:?

Why would it be illegal to feed a piece of plastic coated copper through a length a plastic pipe, and attaching it to the frame work of a shed or house every few hundred mm?

[boban]

OK, I can break this debate down into two fundamental points of view which I hold:

1. Doing your own wiring is illegal in this country for better or for worse. I believe that the lines I quoted above are intended to make the reader think that it's OK to do it anyway. From a responsible point of view, I think it is wrong, given the fact that this is a public forum, not a chat around the table at the local pub between mates.

No issue with the first part. I think the public nature of the forum is more likely to result in any incorrect information being highlighted at an early stage. People are queuing up to jump on any misinformation posted on the forum. I would be more concerned with the pub conversation. If one mate gets it wrong and the others follow the advice.....you be the judge as to what's more likely to result in a tragedy.


2. I think there are people who definitely should not attempt it anyway, even if it wasn't. For two reasons: a) some people just don't have the intuitive understanding required. Not every sparky gets through his apprenticeship. Some people just don't get it. It's not a question of intelligence, but some people's brains are wired differently. b) a lot of people are very slapdash about adhering to standards - sloppy workmanship - she'll be right mate. Yes there are trades like that, but at least their work has to be inspected.

I know a bloke who is no doubt in the genius end of the scale in IQ. He is a very intelligent chap. But there are some things that are totally logical to me that he just does not get. I would be very afraid of getting him to wire up a point, let alone an entire house.

I understand the desire to discuss these things. I think it's a bit hypocritical to accept on the one hand that it's illegal but to help people out anyway, but life is full of contradictions. I'm presenting a strictly above board approach, I know that. It's pedantic, I can't help it, that's the way I'm wired. I'm also an argumentative SOB. Sometimes I take the opposing view to see where it goes.

We're never going to agree, so I'll just go on saying "get a sparky" and you guys keep doing what you're doing. If the reader (who could be anyone of a million people out there) makes a decision based on the information presented, then we can ask no more or no less.

Thank you, and good night!



Silent that first submission is hardly up to your usual standards. It could equally apply to tablesaws and some people.

As to hypocrisy, (and this is not a personal attack on you mate), couldn't the same be said of the stance that some laws must be observed, and others not observed, based on your subjective opinion of their benefit or value.

It's probably common ground that most on this forum support the running of wires etc and having the sparky finish off (illegal as it may be) but for heaven's sake don't use your pliers and screwdriver to connect a powerpoint. That, in my submission, is based on the subjective view held by the "call a sparky group" (for want of a better description) that one is dangerous and the other is not. Both are illegal. To agree with one and not the other is hypocrisy if you base your opinion on the legislation.

Now what's for dinner? Any pizza left?

[spartan]

I love these threads....as an electrician who works for a major electrical company and does some work on the weekends to help keep my license paid for....I have also worked in the office of electrical safety.

I think this is all about protect the pay packet of the license holder....I think from memory (perhaps and urban myth) it dates back to when Australia was receiving numerous workers from overseas...Especially those poms....The ETU push this far more than any safety body.....

Anyway, I've seen plenty of dodgy work done by qualifed guys who should know better....I can typically spot a lot of DIY work...why because its almost too good in many instances...right down to the correct colour of tape....

As for the insurance issue...this is p^&* funny - Insurance companies pay when you get drunk and knock over your 20 year old frayed corded heater every day.....

And FFS, we can't solve as many murders in all of Australia as they do on CSI on Sunday night yet we expect the fire department and insurance assessor and Office of Electrical Safety to repel in by helicopter to the site of every electrical incident ready to lift finger prints and serial numbers off arlec cable purchased at bunnies....sorry it just doesn't happen....

Someone dobs you in.....You might get a knock on the door...to which you say "No sir, not me sir...."

To finish my contribution, educate not legislate...that's what the kiwis do....same electrical standards as us....
:)

[boban]

Huh!!:?

Why would it be illegal to feed a piece of plastic coated copper through a length a plastic pipe, and attaching it to the frame work of a shed or house every few hundred mm?

Stuffed if I know why, it just is. Spartan has a reasonable theory on the subject though.

[Learner]

FROM SILICON CHIP MAGAZINE

You may be able to do your own wiring in New Zealand.

I suppose this fits in with the general picture of Australians being apathetic but this is an issue which affects us all – all people who want to be able to work on electrical equipment. The campaign is really two-pronged. We’re not just campaigning that people should be allowed to do their own home-wiring. There also should be no restrictions on people working on mains-powered equipment.

In countries where it is legal for home-owners to do their own wiring, information on how to do it is freely available. For instance, the New Zealand government sells "code of practice" booklets to home-owners there (NZ$5 each), to provide guidance on various aspects of electrical wiring and appliance repairs. So while ever it is illegal in Australia for home-owners to do their own domestic wiring, the information on how to do it is likely to be unavailable.

http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_101731/article.html

To summarise the campaign, we are appealing to the parliamentarians in each state to direct their electrical licensing authority to:
<dir>(a) remove any restrictions which may prevent people from working on mains-powered equipment, whether it is for the purpose of service and repair, restoration or assembly;
(b) produce legislation which is based on the New Zealand Electricity Act and Regulations, which allows householders to do their own "electrical work", including appliance repairs and the installation of fixed wiring.

Letter from Silicon chip magazine
</dir>More on New Zealand’s electrical regulations

Further to my previous letters, I spent almost the whole of March in New Zealand and I had a very informative and productive meeting with a senior official of the Energy Safety Service within the Ministry of Economic Development. Here is a brief summary of some of the things I discovered.
(1). In a comparative study of international annual electrical fatality statistics done by the New Zealand Energy Safety Serv&#173;ice, Queensland consistently had the highest levels of electrical fatalities in Australia. Much more interestingly, Australia had higher levels of electrical fatalities than any other country studied, with the exception of Northern Ireland.
This New Zealand study confirmed the results of a similar study done by the German government, so the results are corrobo&#173;rated. The country with the lowest electrical fatalities (by a huge margin, varying from year to year between 0.5 and less than 0.1 deaths per million of population), is The Netherlands, and this is one of the many countries that allow householder DIY wiring). Australia has the second highest levels of annual elec&#173;trical fatalities (varying between 2.5 and 4 deaths per million of population).
Now Northern Ireland is an extremely turbulent society. Yet by the German and New Zealand comparative studies, Northern Ireland is the only country with higher levels of electrical fatalities than Australia! The Australian statistics reflect the gross irresponsibility of the great Aussie tradition of allowing powerful vested interest groups to "regulate" themselves.
(2). Prior to 1992, it was illegal for any electrician in New Zealand to explain any technical aspect of electrical wiring to anyone who was not a trainee electrician, or not otherwise li&#173;censed to do "electrical work". This prohibition was seen as a serious impediment to the new electrical safety regime and was eliminated in the 1992 changes to the NZ electrical safety re&#173;gime. (It appears there is no similar prohibition in the current Queensland legislation).
(3). Anyone can assist an electrician to do electrical work in New Zealand, without the electrician having to look over that person’s shoulder. So for instance, after an electrician has agreed to supervise your work, you could bolt up the control panel and connect the house cables to it on your own and the electrician would just do a quick check on your work when it is finished.
(4). Only completely new work and extensions, etc, are required to be inspected in New Zealand. You can replace and relocate wiring, power points, switches, etc, without notifying the au&#173;thorities as long as cable lengths are not altered. The exception is wiring in metal conduit. New Zealanders are not allowed to work on systems run through the old metal conduit systems. Howev&#173;er, they can remove all the metal conduit and then rewire the house with modern cable and components.
(5). Interestingly, the overwhelming majority of additions to houses in New Zealand are done on an owner-builder basis, there&#173;fore much of New Zealand DIY electrical work is the wiring asso&#173;ciated with such additions. Of course, entire houses are built by owner-builders in New Zealand and in these cases almost all the wiring is done by the owner.
(6). Specially certified "inspectors" do all required inspec&#173;tions, not ordinary electricians. The "inspectors" are liable for the quality of the inspection but not for the quality of the work. If and when the work appears to be particularly shoddy or unsafe the inspector can refuse to do the inspection.
New Zealanders are advised by their Energy Safety Service to secure the services of an "inspector" before they begin their DIY electrical installation work. These "inspectors" are private operators, not government employees, and of course, the homeowner has to pay for the inspection service. These inspectors advise the homeowner on the technical aspects of the installation if they feel such advice is needed.
(7). The senior NZ Energy Safety Service official I spoke to made it clear to me that homeowner DIY wiring will not change in New Zealand as a result of all the ongoing reviews, which are now largely concerned with the health and safety of electrical work&#173;ers in industry. The attitude of the New Zealand authorities is that there is no danger whatsoever when DIY electrical work is done according to law.
(8). The New Zealand Energy Safety Service has the attitude that old cables, switches, power points and other fittings need to be able to be replaced at low cost. They believe the sorts of dan&#173;gerous situations where people continue to use cable and fittings of questionable serviceability are dramatically reduced by allow&#173;ing householders to replace these items themselves.
(9). Before 1992, electrical engineers and associate engineers in NZ were authorized to do all "electrical work". This has now changed for new graduates though all licenses current in 1992 continue. Recently graduated engineers and associate engineers can apply for electrical contractor licenses after fulfilling appropriate (minimal) training.
In Australia, there is no way to avoid the four-year ap&#173;prenticeship. Let’s face it, which electrical contracting busi&#173;ness would take on an adult trainee on adult wages when they can get a teenage apprentice at slave labour rates?
So effectively, there is no practical path to an electrical contractor’s license for engineers and associate engineers in Australia.
(10). When New Zealand decided to reassess its electrical safety regime they sent an official overseas to study the electrical safety regimes in other countries, including the United Kingdom and USA systems. In the National Competition Policy review of electrical safety in Australia, there is no requirement whatsoev&#173;er to even look at "world’s best practice".
(11). In the United Kingdom, electrical licensing is relatively weak and electrical standards compliance is primarily enforced through insurance. The UK, which has long had householder DIY wiring, has annual electrical fatality levels below 1.0 per million of population. Compare that to the Australian figures!
My extensive interactions with New Zealanders were such that I can wholeheartedly confirm the comments of I. Morrison in the January 2001 Mailbag. New Zealand really is a much kinder, fairer society that is much more protective of civil liberties than we are in Australia. So please, wake up Australia!
Otto S. Hoolhorst,
Brisbane, Queensland

http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_101973/article.html
<dir>
</dir>

[Border boy]

Having only recently recovered from the shock of receiving a couple of bills from sparkies, I can totally understand why they would wish to "protect" their exclusive & highly protected industry. Normal residential work charged at $65 bucks an hour - done by an apprentice???? Special work dealing with upgrading household supply ie, giving work done by my sparkie the once over (Had a bit of a chat about the footy etc, didn't set foot outside a 2 metre radius of his work van & deemed that a 2" piece of conduit was needed to protect the earth wire to the freshly installed earth stake was required, installed a new digital meter, 2 metres from his work van and signed off to the local supply company - 2 hours max - labour charge $330.
I wish I was a sparky!!

[silentC]

It's probably common ground that most on this forum support the running of wires etc and having the sparky finish off (illegal as it may be)
As far as I know, you can do it, you can probably wire up power points too if you want - but it has to be done under the direct supervision of a sparky with his supervisor ticket. I can't find anything in the legislation that says the person physically doing the work must be qualified unless a) they are doing it commercially or b) they are not under direct supervision.

I suppose 'direct supervision' is open to interpretation - but I don't think there is anything wrong with you pulling wires for the sparky, as long as he has told you what to do and he inspects the work. So as far as I can tell, there is an opportunity there if you can find a cooperative sparky.


It could equally apply to tablesaws and some people.
You're absolutely right, it does. I hold would grave fears if certain people I know ever announced they were going to buy a tablesaw. I usually try to steer clear of that line of argument. I only brought it up because it is the underlying reason why I think a bit of control over what people do with electricity is a good thing. Lowest common denominator protectionism I know. That's why I don't get into it, because it leads to the logical conclusion of preventing everybody from doing anything that might be unsafe.

With regard to wiring, I'm more concerned about the person who buys the house from the DIY sparky than I am about the DIY sparky himself.

[mick101]

As already posted...how does the 'do-it-yourselfer' know that things were correct in the first place....ive seen houses with reverse polarity. When i do elect work on someones house i check a lot of small things that keep people alive, earth resistance/neutrals etc etc. That is what the lic is about.

Industry protection ? Not likely from my point of view...i could go to 20 places tomorrow & get an immediate start on stuff that has nothing to do with power points & lights. Sparks are thin on the ground.

[Amb]

had the plumber around yesterday to fit a new pressure release valve.... it's dripping where he connected it to the tank..............So I pay $200 for the professional....and he can't even get that right. And soon I'll have to open my house up to other professionals, I just can't wait.


I go along with you. In my experience, more often than not, the tradesman does a less than satsfactory job, so I always check to see he's done a good job. I trust my own work before someone else's.

[wonderplumb]

As a plumber Ive had to do a restricted electrical just to be able to replace a baby 50L HWS, LEGALLY. Someone calls me up to replace an electric instantaneous HWS, I call a sparky first off, as they run on 3 phase power. I didnt even pull cables in my own house I got my sparky mate to do the whole lot, as is the same when he renovated his bathroom, he didnt touch anything concerned with water/drainage. This is not about sparkies and plumbers "protecting" their trade as some "handymen" (and I use the term loosely) think, its about safety, there is a reason why there is a code of practice, legal implications, rules and restrictions. It astounds me that people think they can do all this stuff and be 100% confident that theyre not going to blow theyre house up or burn it down to the ground and God forbid hurt or even kill a family member. Ive noticed that no-one here has asked about doing their own gas work, though people dont realise that water and power can cause just as much damage with the same devestating results. Example, my sister rented a house recently where the gas HWS had ???? itself. The owner, a "handyman" as a lot of investment property owners are, had replaced this HWS. She called me up saying she didnt think it looked "right". I get over there, he had put a 135L outdoor gas HWS inside in the laundry, un-flued, used a water easy hooker on the gas from the ball valve to the heater, and instead of a TPR valve screwed a hose cock in instead. Without going into details, a storage HWS has the potential to take out half a house under these conditions. And dont get me started on Bunnings..........................

[Terrian]

As already posted...how does the 'do-it-yourselfer' know that things were correct in the first place....ive seen houses with reverse polarity.

there are these great little plug in testers sold at Dick Smith stores that *anyone* can buy and test power points, 5 out of about 12 power points here tested as 'Unsafe' because of 'active / neutral' reversed. These appear to all be original power points (house built in about 1963)

I would not be surprised in similar testers were available for light sockets.

[zeroseven]

I've back for more pizza and a second question. Beer sadly ran out over the weekend and Dan Murphys felt too far away this evening. :((

I'm in Quakers Hill. Has anyone had a good experience, or can they recommend an electrician/company?

It's a bit of a minefield when you know no-one in the trade and no-one who has any recommendations for you. Any suggestions would be much appreciated. Otherwise I'll have to play russian roulette in a couple of weeks with the Yellow pages.

Also, should I buy my own sockets/switches and get the sparky to fit them? No doubt they could get them cheaper than me, but would they generally pass on this saving to you?

[chrisp]

This is not about sparkies and plumbers "protecting" their trade as some "handymen" (and I use the term loosely) think, its about safety, there is a reason why there is a code of practice, legal implications, rules and restrictions. It astounds me that people think they can do all this stuff and be 100% confident that theyre not going to blow theyre house up or burn it down to the ground and God forbid hurt or even kill a family member.

It could be worth your while reading up on some statistics on electrical safety and compare countries that allow people to do their own wiring with Australia. See if you can find some statistics to support your proposition that it is safety.

Also, there are people who are very knowledgeable in electrical matters (not just "handymen") who cannot obtain a wiring licence without having to do a four year apprenticeship.

Closed shop - yep.

[Border boy]

Also, should I buy my own sockets/switches and get the sparky to fit them? No doubt they could get them cheaper than me, but would they generally pass on this saving to you?

It won't make any difference.
Sure, tradies can & do get a better price on hardware, 20 to 30&#37; and maybe more than that (for the big players). Do they pass this saving onto you - NO WAY.

[Amb]

It astounds me that people think they can do all this stuff and be 100% confident that theyre not going to blow theyre house up or burn it down ..................

Well I suppose you either do or don't know what you're doing. Problem is, when you don't know, then often you don't know that you don't know, if you know what I mean. When you do know what you're doing, this often means that you know what you can get away with, whether the work done is good enough or not. So the tradesman may not do the A1 job because he knows there is no need to. The DIYer with less experience will often do the A1 job.

[Yonnee]

I didnt even pull cables in my own house I got my sparky mate to do the whole lot, as is the same when he renovated his bathroom, he didnt touch anything concerned with water/drainage.

If we all had a sparky mate, why would any of us do our own electrical or plumbing work?

The fact is that because you can only get a qualification to do these trades by doing an apprenticeship, and there are not enough people willing to be paid less than $200 a week to start an apprenticeship, the shortage means that most of the qualified guys are extremely busy. Supply and demand then drives the price up. Tradies then can pick and choose which jobs they do. People are then forced to make a choice whether they do without, re-mortgage the house to pay the tradesman, or take the risk and do it themselves.
If, like N.Z., the regulations were changed to allow people to do minor electrical work themselves, then the demand for electricians would decrease but I doubt the work would drop off much as they'd still have the work that pays the most such as commercial work and new home installations as well as the final sign-offs on D.I.Y. home owners work.


It astounds me that people think they can do all this stuff and be 100% confident that theyre not going to blow theyre house up or burn it down to the ground and God forbid hurt or even kill a family member.

Despite the fact it's illegal, If the job is done to the proper specifications and regulations, what's the difference between a qualified and non-qualified person performing the work?

If we're going to argue about putting people in danger, then why can non-qualified people build their own houses, change the brake pads in their vehicles and manufacture their own trailers capable of carrying 4500kg and being towed at 100km/h?


Example, my sister rented a house recently where the gas HWS had ???? itself. The owner, a "handyman" as a lot of investment property owners are, had replaced this HWS. She called me up saying she didnt think it looked "right". I get over there, he had put a 135L outdoor gas HWS inside in the laundry, un-flued, used a water easy hooker on the gas from the ball valve to the heater, and instead of a TPR valve screwed a hose cock in instead.

I do agree that there's no excuse for performing sub-standard work whether you're qualified or not. Maybe the good old australian, "She'll be right, mate." could have something to do with it. Maybe he couldn't get a plumber to turn up? Maybe he was a tight-??????

[mick101]

I would not be surprised in similar testers were available for light sockets.

I rest my case.

[Yonnee]

I rest my case.

Yeah, I'll pay that one...:doh:


But on the other hand, if you don't know and don't ask, you don't learn. It doesn't mean you're going to botch it up once you do learn, which is what some qualified's are suggesting us un-qualified's will do.

[silentC]

If the job is done to the proper specifications and regulations, what's the difference between a qualified and non-qualified person performing the work?
The difference is that the work done by the qualified person has been done under license, which carries with it two assumptions: 1) that the work was done by someone who has completed a trade qualification and therefore should know what they are doing and the implications of doing it wrong; and 2) that if the work is not up to scratch, the licensee will have to come back and fix it at risk of losing his license if he doesn't.

This is only really significant in a commercial situation, or is it? What if you buy a house from a DIYer with no idea and it is full of dodgy wiring? You have a choice to either fix it up at your own expense or live with it. You're very unlikely to get the vendor to fix it, I suppose you could take it to court, but you just wouldn't have the same legal grounding as you would if you took on a tradesman who has done a dodgy.

Here's another thing: If I have a sparky do work on my new extension or owner-built house, he has to provide warranty on it. If I sell the house in the mean time, that warranty passes on to the new owner. If I do the wiring myself and something goes wrong after selling it, I have to fix it - the new owner gets up to 7 years warranty on it. You have to provide the new owner with warranty insurance. What that means is that if there's an electrical fault, they make a claim, the insurance company sends out an assessor, he finds that the fault was due to poor workmanship, they pay a sparky to fix it and then send you the bill. If you don't pay it, they take you to court. Very messy.

I suppose if you intend to live in your house until you die, that's not going to be a problem. As long as it doesn't burn down in the meantime with you in it.

[NCArcher]

Just a bit on the statistics of death by electrocution.
The figures quoted earlier here and elsewhere on the web include deaths by all forms of electrocution. i.e. kids sticking a knife into a power point or toaster. Yes an RCD will shut the power off within 30msecs but not all houses have the RCD fitted by a qualified electrician or even have an ELCB device.
Figures also include people who are electrocuted by driving their yacht into high voltage lines or Linesmen who are electrocuted while working on HV equipment and cables. People who are electrocuted when walking through a puddle while holding a microphone.
I think you will find that a number of deaths each year are qualified electricians, who become complacent and don't give electricity as much respect as they should.
I know this because i get the various trade journals which list all these deaths and the outcomes of the resultant investigations.

Just trying to say that the statistics don't prove much of anything with regard to regulation of electrical work.

I'll aslo add that these investigations are carried out by the Office of the Chief Electrical Inspector or the Office of Fair Trading in conjunction with police.
If negligence is proven the person responsible (person who did the wiring, authorised or not) is subject to fines over $100k and/or jail terms.
You need to decide if it's worth the risk.
I'm qualified and I have insurance.

[mick101]

Would anyone one here hire a spark that came to the door & said he has very limited experience....no electrical lic.....isnt sure of the rules...has no copy of the rule book...very few tools & the ones he has he isnt sure of their function or reliability ??

Would you really let him work on your house's electricals ??

So why would you consider yourselves doing it if you are not a qualified spark ? Is the life of a family member worth this for the odd job about the place ? You yourselves say that your not intending to go contracting...just putting in a power point right.

Honestly im finished here. Guys its your children/house/decision.

[Studley 2436]

Personally I just think get a Sparky in and suffer the cost. Mind you I like to look after donkey work like stringing wires through and so on. Let him concentrate on the electrical.

Studley

[Mick72]

As a licenced electrician i feel that i must comment as there seems to be a fair amount of bravado with forum members about doing their own electrical.
Do the DIY,s know the rules and understand the risks of doing it themselves?
How do they know that it was wired correctly in the first place?
How do they know that the circuit is dead before they work on it?(Leaving the light on and pulling the fuse and watching the light go out doesn't guarantee that everything is dead.)
Do they have the appropriate test equipment to test for dead?
Do they have appropriate test equipment to test the insulation resistance and do they know what the minimum insulation resistance is and how to test for it?
Do they know what the maximum earth resistance is and how to test for it?
Do they know what the maximum number of points allowable on a particular circuit is and the correct cable size for the protection?
Do they know about correct earthing requirements?
If the DIY'er answers no to any of these questions (and dozens more) then they probably shouldn't be doing the job themselves as a licensed electrician should know the answer and should not only make sure that the item that he is working on is installed correctly but also that the rest of the circuit is safe and up to standards. Remember that just because the power point works or the light switches on does not mean that the job has been done safely and up to standards.
I am only posting this as i have seen quite a few DIY jobs that have been extremely dangerous.
My two bobs worth.

[bricks]

Everything above X2 cept for tis plumbing also.

[wonderplumb]

If we all had a sparky mate, why would any of us do our own electrical or plumbing work?

The fact is that because you can only get a qualification to do these trades by doing an apprenticeship, and there are not enough people willing to be paid less than $200 a week to start an apprenticeship, the shortage means that most of the qualified guys are extremely busy. Supply and demand then drives the price up. Tradies then can pick and choose which jobs they do. People are then forced to make a choice whether they do without, re-mortgage the house to pay the tradesman, or take the risk and do it themselves.
If, like N.Z., the regulations were changed to allow people to do minor electrical work themselves, then the demand for electricians would decrease but I doubt the work would drop off much as they'd still have the work that pays the most such as commercial work and new home installations as well as the final sign-offs on D.I.Y. home owners work.



Despite the fact it's illegal, If the job is done to the proper specifications and regulations, what's the difference between a qualified and non-qualified person performing the work?

If we're going to argue about putting people in danger, then why can non-qualified people build their own houses, change the brake pads in their vehicles and manufacture their own trailers capable of carrying 4500kg and being towed at 100km/h?



I do agree that there's no excuse for performing sub-standard work whether you're qualified or not. Maybe the good old australian, "She'll be right, mate." could have something to do with it. Maybe he couldn't get a plumber to turn up? Maybe he was a tight-??????

Having a mate who was a sparky or not, it would be a sparky employed to do the work that was required of him.

$200 a week for a 1st year apprentice is the harsh reality of it, always has been and if your 16, living at home with mum and dad paying the bills, doing your washing, wiping your backside still then why not do a trade? I believe it comes down to a lack of willingness to do a bit of hard work combined with the lure of big dollars in administrative and IT work that shies kids away from doing trades these days.

Despite the fact that its illegal;
Silent C has summed this up quite well.......

As far as I understood, owner builders had to do a course of some description, still had to employ a chippie, a brickie, a sparky, a plumber, a roof tiler, a waterproofer, a wall/floor tiler, a plasterer, a glazier, a concretor, a cabinet maker, a carpet layer etc. etc. and the final result of a permanent dwelling still has to pass the councils final inspection.........

Does every one who changes his own brake pads mic. up their discs to see if they are within acceptible tolerances? Machine theyre discs/shoes if necessary? Check wheel bearings/tie-rod ends/balljoints while its jacked up? Know how to carry out these checks? Know how to read tyre wear for signs of underlying front-end problems? Know the correct tyre pressures to run on?
Last time I checked, a trailer with a load capacity of 4500kg needed to be towed behind a truck with an aggregate weight rating of around 11,000kg, a trailer of such capacity would have to go through stringent scrutineering, the details of which Im not sure of, before it was allowed to even be parked on the road. Not something you could knock up out of a bit of steel from bunnies and a few trailer bits from supercrap over a box of stubbies with a few mates on a sunday arvo.

[dazzler]

How do I sharpen plane blades :?

[Tas_Dean]

Psshhhhhtt!! *Takes sip, pulls up chair*
"Any pizza left?"

Here's a thought. Years ago, when doing a course for the C.T.I.A (Caravan Trades Industries Association) Roadworthy scheme, we were told that 'technically', anyone can work-on/repair an appliance. If it can be unplugged from the wall, it's an appliance. (If it's hardwired in, like your oven, you can't touch it!) Therefore, 'technically' a caravan is an appliance, even though there are usually hardwired power points run throughout the van's interior.



Correct regarding appliances, incorrect regarding caravans. Electrical wiring for relocatable premises (including caravans and tents) carries it's own standards - AS3001:2001. Must be done by a licensed electrician and a certificate of compliance must be attached to the relocatable premises. Caravan parks can refuse to supply a power connection without the certificate, and registration can be refused without the certificate also.

The standard covers things including compulsory double pole switching (very expensive to buy double pole switched powerpoints), compulsory RCD/ELCB, cable types and support systems.

[Honorary Bloke]

Ahhh, going into overtime I see.

:cheers2:

[MurrayD99]

How do I sharpen plane blades :?

Normally towed behind a ute on a bit of wire over a gravel road... touch up the secondary bevel with a high voltage arc (use the same bit of wire if you are mean). I can't believe this thread - pizza gone; beer gone; still it runs....

[JDarvall]

$200 a week for a 1st year apprentice is the harsh reality of it, always has been and if your 16, living at home with mum and dad paying the bills, doing your washing, wiping your backside still then why not do a trade? I believe it comes down to a lack of willingness to do a bit of hard work combined with the lure of big dollars in administrative and IT work that shies kids away from doing trades these days.

.

Most kids at 16 or whatever are paid poorly anyway. ...struggling uni students etc.....they all winge..understandably or not.. There was a kid at the place I work that wasn't even given an apprenticeship and he's being paid something like
$7/hour.

Everybody looks for reason to justify being paid more no matter what your paid.

[anawanahuanana]

I always read these threads with interest, but never normally post. But hey, time for a change.
I am a licensed aircraft electrician. I am more that comfortable with wiring, bonding tests, insulation tests, continuity tests (+ have access to the test equipment to do them), crimping, the principles of electron flow versus conventional flow. I know what capacitors, resistors, thermal trip C.Bs and fuses do. I am not ashamed to admit that I have replaced a fan, fitted a new GPO, and removed and refitted more than a few light switches, as well a couple of downlights in my house, and would do it again as required. I would never even consider going near the switchboard though. I draw a firm line there.

Now, I think that there should be some mechanism for me to go to my local TAFE, and learn and be examined on the details required to pick up a licence to do simple electrical work on my own house. But alas I have no choice but to leave my job to do a 4 year apprenticeship.
This is nothing but protectionist nonsense. I agree that there are people who shouldn't be allowed to even turn on a light switch, let alone change one, but I also think that there has to be some room for common sense, hence the need to be examined, both written and practically if necessary, to pick up the restricted licence. It's all very well saying "get a sparky" at everything, but this isn't always as easy as it sounds. A lack of qualified guys leads to people not turning up to quote (happened to me on more than 1 occasion) and when they do, pushing the price up as it's only a small job.

I agree with SilentC to a certain extent when he says that we should not be encouraging people to break the law, and I wouldn't actively encourage anyone to do so, but I also think that a lot of these people are going to do it anyway, and if I'm going to unwittingly buy a house off 1 of them one day, I'd hope that at least they had been given some good advice before they caried out their illegal wiring. At the end of the day I'd sleep better at night if someone asked me how to wire up a new light and I told him he souldn't do it, but if he was to, he should do it like this. I definately would have a few sleepless nights if I told him he shouldn't be doing it and walked away to find that he did it anyway and killed his family while they slept.

Saying that a licensed sparky has to come back and fix up his earier substandard work is also a moot point in my opinion. Firstly, it shouldn't be substandard. That's why you paid through the nose to get it done. Secondly, how would I know it was not up to scratch if I'm not allowed to ask how things should be done and learn a bit about the regs and requirements? Having done a fair bit of renovation on my house so far, I have to say that I am surprised at the standard of some things when it comes to building a house. Aircraft wiring is loomed carefully, with stand-offs at well defined distances. My house wiring, put in by a "professional" is laid all over my roof space in a very haphazard fashion. I even found one bit of GPO wiring that had been trapped between a metal plate and the roof truss, nearly cutting the insulation right through. :no: This done, or at least inspected, buy a licensed electrician when the house was built 12 years ago.

To finish, I think that the electrocution stats are valid data, in that it doesn't really matter who they comprise of. All countries have home DIY'ers, professional electricians, electric company employees in cherry pickers, people in boats with big masts (well, maybe not ALL countries!) and kids that fly kites near substations. The simple fact is that as hard as the government thinks it is protecting the population from the perils of electricity, it doesn't seem to be working. But then again, why would the government, Liberal or Labour, want to take on the unions and possibly reduce the amount of cash that one of their groups make? They say electrical DIY is unsafe, so it must be true. They also said Iraq had WMD the petrol companies are in it for the consumers, and everybody would love WorkChoices..............:doh:

[silentC]

I think that there should be some mechanism for me to go to my local TAFE, and learn and be examined on the details required to pick up a licence to do simple electrical work on my own house.
I agree, but then who is going to inspect it? Bet you didn't know that a sparky needs an inspector's license to inspect his own work. The guy we used was working under another blokes license because he didn't have the qualifications to inspect his own work, so even though he's a fully qualified sparky of 40 years, he still needs someone else to OK it before the Country Energy guys would let him connect it.

I'd hope that at least they had been given some good advice before they carried out their illegal wiring
I'd prefer that it had been done by someone with a license whose asre I could kick if there was a problem. If I say to someone "get a sparky" (I'm not qualified to answer electrical questions anyway), rather than "hey, you shouldn't do it, but here's how some bloke you've never met who thinks he knows all about wiring and stuff reckons you should do it" then my conscience is clear. I mean to say, how does the DIYer that comes on to ask the question know that the person giving them advice knows what they are talking about? Could be the blind leading the blind. Yes, yes I know that applies to everything on here but it puts a bit of a hole in the argument that seeking and obtaining advice on an Internet forum at least assures that the illegal wiring job will be done right, doesn't it? Yes, I believe it does.

Saying that a licensed sparky has to come back and fix up his earier substandard work is also a moot point in my opinion.
See above! It's all about having a license number to refer to. They have to give you a certificate of compliance with their license number on it. If they do sub-standard work, or there is a problem with something they have done, you've a much better chance of getting it fixed if you have a formal paper trail, than if it was DIY Bob doing his own wiring.

I think that the electrocution stats are valid data, in that it doesn't really matter who they comprise of
Of course it matters. What does the number of people electrocuted whilst working on high voltage lines have to do with the safety or otherwise of wiring in people's houses? Nothing, that's what. I'm not saying that the stats don't support the argument that Australia has no better a safety record than the rest of the world. Maybe it doesn't. But I fail to see how looking at the stats for electrocutions in general proves anything. In any case, this argument only applies if you believe that the reason for having licensing laws has anything more than a minor connection to safety. I think it has more to do with regulating the industry, giving a clear onus of liability, and getting rid of dodgy backyarders.

[anawanahuanana]

I agree, but then who is going to inspect it? Thats my point for being examined. It shouldn't require further inspection. The aviation industry is one of, if not the most, regulated industries in Australia. I hold a licence allowing me to work on a $100m dollar aircraft, carrying 400 people 40,000ft in the air, and the privelages of my licence mean that I can certify my work as fit to fly. Having to hold an inspectors ticket to inspect a licensed electricians work is just another level of money generating. Why bother to licence the sparky if it all has to be examined anyway? May as well let anyone have a crack at wiring, and just make it the law that it has to be inspected for compliance.


I mean to say, how does the DIYer that comes on to ask the question know that the person giving them advice knows what they are talking about? Could be the blind leading the blind. Yes, yes I know that applies to everything on here but it puts a bit of a hole in the argument that seeking and obtaining advice on an Internet forum at least assures that the illegal wiring job will be done right, doesn't it? Yes, I believe it does. Not necessarily. If someone comes on here asking how to tell if a GPO is still live and I post that they should just touch the live and neutral conductors at the same time with the tip of a screwdriver to see, there would be a huge number of replies telling the OP not to do it! This is only possible because of the large number of people posting on these forums. If it were only viewed by a person every other day, I would completely agree with you.


If they do sub-standard work But they shouldn't be doing substandard work. That's why we're all told to employ a professional.....


Of course it matters. What does the number of people electrocuted whilst working on high voltage lines have to do with the safety or otherwise of wiring in people's houses? Nothing, that's what. I agree. But if you assume (and some of the safety argument is assumptions) that there is a reasonably proportional amount of people killed whilst working on high voltage transmission lines etc in developed countries with rigorous health and safety regimes, then what is left over is important. What I'm arguing is that basically in a given number of people, in the U.K to pick a country at random, say 20 % of electrocutions were high voltage transmission lines. It's not a huge jump to assume that therefore somewhere in the same region may be the number killed by the same cause in Oz. I know its not exact, but bear with me. The fact is that there are a lot more electrocution deaths in OZ than in other developed countries. Therefore, either our "professional" electrical workforce are really careless at their jobs and don't adhere to the rules, or a lot of DIY'ers are shocking themsleves because they are trying to do things that they shouldn't be, with no information. There will always be people who will either want to do things for themselves, either for financial reasons, or because they enjoy it. All I'm saying is allow them to be educated in a controlled way, instead of by word of mouth and advice from unqualified individuals. Unfortunately the government/unions/whoever doesn't want to allow that, so the informal advice is all that is left to try an maintain some level of safety.

[silentC]

It shouldn't require further inspection.
If you want to argue for a change to the system, then by all means do so (still waiting for someone to start the thread) but with the system such as it is, even a TAFE training course would be limited in what it qualified you to do, without you needing to have it inspected.

May as well let anyone have a crack at wiring, and just make it the law that it has to be inspected for compliance.
That is pretty much what the law says. Anyone can do the wiring, as long as they are under direct supervision of a licensed person. And all work must be tested by a person authorised to do so.


This is only possible because of the large number of people posting on these forums.
And witness how many different answers you get to any conceivable question. Ultimately the DIYer has to decide who is right and who is wrong. There's also the question of people giving advice when they are not on site. How to test that a plug is live? Yeah, sure you can probably explain to someone how to do that. But wiring questions like "I have four red wires, two black and two green, which ones do I hook my new light up to" - how can anyone give a reliable answer to that without being there?

Regarding stats, if you really want to examine it, you also need to look at house fires started by faulty wiring. You would need to know, of those, which wiring jobs were legal under the new system vs. those that weren't.


Therefore, either our "professional" electrical workforce are really careless at their jobs and don't adhere to the rules, or a lot of DIY'ers are shocking themsleves because they are trying to do things that they shouldn't be....

You should stop right there. That's right, doing things they shouldn't be. I'm not sure that I agree with the argument that the way to stop people doing silly things is to make it easier for them. It's a bit like injecting rooms in a way. They're going to do it anyway, so why not give them somewhere clean to do it. I wonder how many people have actually gotten off the drugs as a result. Maybe I'm wrong on that, not sure.

As I said, I don't necessarily agree with the safety argument. I don't know why the legislation was created, but I doubt that safety has all that much to do with it. As I said, I think it has more to do with industry regulation (controlling who is doing what on building sites), making sure there are backsides to kick when things go wrong, and cleaning up the dodgy stuff that was going on twenty years ago.