Electrics & Plumbing - What Am I Allowed To Do? [Archive] - Page 2

Cauterise

8th August 2007, 12:14 PM

1. Yes it's a regulated industry, but so is selling real estate and operating taxis. So what.

2. You can get authorisation to wire your own residence/property (or residence you can prove you have an interest in) if you have a degree in electrical engineering. Whover siad you couldn't is mistaken. Make written application or go and apply personally.

3. In the absence of a contractor's licence, licensed electricians are only allowed to work on their own residence/property. Go figure - licensed, qualified electricians legally can't wire the neighbour's front light.

4. In some cases blue wires are not negative/neutral (ever heard of blue phase Boban?) you may not have broken the law by posting that, but if humans were still dependant on the food chain, you'd go hungry.

5. Apprenticeships are financial short term pain for long term gain. It costs time and money to train someone who can be literally useless for a year or two before becoming productive.

6. Whoever said don't touch the switchboard is spot on. Get a contractor in, get a shedload of protection on every circuit (ie ELCB/RCDs) and then you can knock yourself out (illegally of course) playing with your power circuits, your light circuits, whatever. No one will lose sleep over your dodgy wiring if there is sufficient protection tripping the circuit every time you sneeze.

7. People die from illegal or untested wiring. I can think of 2-3 cases off the top of my head. I also know a chippie/builder who now has fused vertebrae due to some reckless tosser's illegal, untested wiring. Read any of the regulatory authority periodicals and you'll find the instances of prosecutions, accidents etc.

8. Electricians aren't professionals, they are trades people. The electrical industry is regulated by bureacrats, it is not a self-governing industry. Take your anger out on the bureacrats. If you don't understand what I mean by this - do some research on the meaning of what are and what aren't professions. You might say semantics, but I think an important point if you are going to slag the electrical trade wholesale.

Long and the short of it is this - yes, anyone with a modicum of intelligence should be allowed to work on their own property as long as they wire it in accordance with appropriate standards and local regulations, test it and submit it for inspection by the regulatory authority.

If you are going to illegally wire something (ie unlicensed wiring, not shonky wiring), do yourself a favour, get a copy of the Australian Standard (will cost you $100 or so) and read up. Hands up if you buy books to help you get the most from your band saw, table saw, router, whatever. Hell, most of you probably even have a workshop manual for changing the brakes.

As for changing lights, power points etc., just make sure the terminals are done up tight, it isn't just a case of getting the wires round the right way, even a monkey can imitate, but get those terminals secure. My bet is that more electrical fires happen as a result of loose connections than anything else.

Use correct equipment (including connectors, tape, junction boxes, whatever). Know when a job is too much for you and steer clear. Don't guess, and most importantly test, test, test everyting and abide by the Wiring Rules even for 'illegal' work done outside the regulatory authority's oversight. Beg, buy or steal some test equipment. Prove dead and check thoroughly when done.

As for changing the system - if you want to do something, write to your local regulator and ask for a permit to wire your own house, when the obvious reply comes in, write to your local member and ask for a change. if enough people want change it will happen. But, in the mean time, self-select, recognise your limits.

I'd like one of you to be a test case, admit to having installed a power point, submit the paperwork on your own behalf and then test in the courts your right to do so in your own house.
Cheers.

MrFixIt

8th August 2007, 12:18 PM

Hi

Saying that a licensed sparky has to come back and fix up his earier substandard work is also a moot point in my opinion. Firstly, it shouldn't be substandard.
This IMHO is a substantial part of the problem, the lack of GOOD tradespeople!

For a slightly OT example, but along the same line, I had a painter paint our house inside and out. The quality was less than the previous paint job that *I* did. The painter came back THREE times to fix problems before I finally had to call in the Painters Registration Board. The painter STILL had to come back another TWO times to finally have the job passed by the PRB. I had TWO full pages of "faults". So how does a person that knows nothing about painting get the correct job done in the first place?

In another instance, I had a bricklayer come and repair a brick wall. This was a 45deg corner that had to be knocked down and rebuilt using the same bricks.

As I watched from the kitchen window, I could SEE at the third course that the wall was going HIGH at the corner. Approx 1cm in 2.5m.

I asked him "Couldn't he use a string line" the feeble excuse of it was too hard because of the corner meant the bricklayer was going to continue WITHOUT the string line.

After reaching half the height of the wall, it was more out of level than before!

I again brought this to the attention of the bricklayer. BTW my dad was a bricklayer (a TOP CLASS tradesman after a 5 YEAR bricklaying apprenticeship), so I am aware of quality bricklaying and have an exceptionally good eye for level :2tsup: The next day the bricklayer did concede a little and knocked off six courses to try again.

The nett result was abysmal :~ In the length of three metres the wall rises 2.5cm - rediculous. The bricklayer STILL could NOT see the "error". I offered him the choice of FIXING the wall or getting paid HALF his quoted price he did NOT want to fix his work, so was paid half. I STILL see this wall every day from the kitchen window.

BTW the neighbour across the road recently had his wall rebuilt (different bricklayer). His wall drops nearly 5cm in 6 metres - THAT'S HALF A BRICK :o

...and some people here wonder WHY I do my own work?

At least *I* do it correctly and properly THE FIRST time. I KNOW I can trust my own work. I served an aprenticeship (Fitting & Maching), though far removed from the trades discussed here, but the training given IMHO was better in those days. Today's apprentices are not as well trained, as the quality of trades has diminished over the years and will continue to drop as the quality continues to diminish.

There ARE a few good tradesmen out there, I have come across a few of them and we have had similar discussions to that on which this thread is based. They agree with the sentiments expressed here that DIY is quite often BETTER than the quality received from tradespeople.

So I will continue to do my own quality work and recommend that those that CAN, also do the same. If you cannot to a task then by all means of course HIRE and PAY for a professional tradie, JUST be sure of who you get and that they ARE good at their trade.

silentC

8th August 2007, 12:28 PM

Did it ever occur to you that, just as there are varying degrees of standards and abilities amongst tradesmen, there are also varying degrees of the same amongst DIYers? At least with the tradesman, you had a Painters Registration Board to call. Who are you going to call when your son or daughter's house catches on fire because of the dodgy job the previous owner did on the wiring?

You might be the solid gold, shyte hot workman that you say you are, I don't know, I've never seen your work. But that is not the point. The point is that a) you're suggesting that people break the law and b) confessing to doing it yourself, all the time, on a public forum for all to see. We all know your first name, what you drive, and where you live.

I saw a story on one of those current affairs programs the other night about young kids getting into trouble in chat rooms because they don't appreciate just how public their conversations are. No different here.

chrisp

8th August 2007, 12:33 PM

2. You can get authorisation to wire your own residence/property (or residence you can prove you have an interest in) if you have a degree in electrical engineering. Whover siad you couldn't is mistaken. Make written application or go and apply personally.

Cauterise,

Great first post!

I agree with most of your points, but I would like to know more about your experiences with point 2.

My experience is that you can not get a license to wire your own even if you are an electrical engineer. In Victoria it is called an "occupier's license" but there quite a few catches in the application process. You need 80 hours supervised experience; you need a "supervised workers license" to get the experience, you need to sit the test to get the "supervised workers license", but you can not sit it unless you are apprenticed. Bottom line I was told by the OCEI was the only way was a 4 year apprenticeship .

DavidG

8th August 2007, 12:53 PM

journeyman Mick

8th August 2007, 12:55 PM

1. Yes it's a regulated industry....................

........................I'd like one of you to be a test case, admit to having installed a power point, submit the paperwork on your own behalf and then test in the courts your right to do so in your own house.
Cheers.

Cauterise, welcome aboard, and thank you for a very complete and insightful commentary on this long running debate. I reckon it would have to rate as one of the best first posts. :2tsup:

Mick

MurrayD99

8th August 2007, 01:02 PM

Cauterise, welcome aboard, and thank you for a very complete and insightful commentary on this long running debate. I reckon it would have to rate as one of the best first posts. :2tsup:

Mick

Well put!:2tsup:

MrFixIt

8th August 2007, 01:39 PM

Hi

You might be the solid gold, shyte hot workman that you say you are, I don't know

Thank you for the compliment :U

Cauterise

8th August 2007, 01:45 PM

ChrisP - Bloody Victoria! Bloody bureacrats.

Website you refer to is here - http://www.esv.vic.gov.au/ForElectricityProfessionals/LicensingandRegistration/OccupiersLicense/tabid/200/Default.aspx

All I can suggest is to keep trying, put your request in writing, rather than over the phone, and state your experience, quals etc. If no luck, threaten them with an appeal to the Administrative Appeals Tribunal - sometimes the stick approach works.

And as for being excluded from the test, get them to put that in writing too. Seems to me to be farcical - what's the point of having the test requirement if you can't sit it?

In other states where I have worked (Tas, WA & Qld) it seems to be a much more friendly approach - ie recognise that you have the theory & skills and if you're willing to be tested for compliance, then you get the permit.

Sturdee

8th August 2007, 02:31 PM

Just a scenario:

Suppose :-
1. I worked for a Gov dept responsible for control of wiring.

2. I read this forum.

3. I asked the owner of board for the Email address and IP address of certain respondents.

4. I traced the street address of the respondents through their internet supplier.

Who would have a worried look when I came to inspect their wiring.:o

Wouldn't be surprised if that happens sooner then later the way this debate on flouting the laws keeps on going on.

BTW those who want to do some wiring part themselves under an electrician supervision better make sure that they agree with the electrician as to what and how they do it.

My electrician friend was recently called out to check and finish of a job after some wiring work had been done by the homeowner.

He saw that some of that wiring was behind plaster and some in conduits, because he couldn't see and inspect all the wiring he refused and quoted on replacing all the wiring already done by the homeowner.

As his quote wasn't accepted he reported the matter to the Office of Electrical Safety, as he was required to do, and the same day the power company disconnected the supply because of illegal wiring.

A full and complete inspection and certification by an electrician was required to get the power back on. Hence no cost savings.

Peter.

silentC

8th August 2007, 02:45 PM

Thank you for the compliment
You're welcome :) But don't be offended if I don't get you over to do my next wiring job :wink:

chrisp

8th August 2007, 04:23 PM

Wouldn't be surprised if that happens sooner then later the way this debate on flouting the laws keeps on going on.

Most of the debate has been on the reason for the regulation.

BTW those who want to do some wiring part themselves under an electrician supervision better make sure that they agree with the electrician as to what and how they do it.

Good idea. If the story is true and complete (but I find it a bit hard to believe the story as it stands - most wiring is covered in one way or another:rolleyes:), I'd suggest that people also give Sturdee's electrician friend wide berth.

silentC

8th August 2007, 04:25 PM

Most of the debate has been on the reason for the regulation.
Unfortunately, yes, despite my best efforts :)

Still waiting for that thread: Do you think the regulations preventing unlicensed people from doing their own wiring should be revoked?

chrisp

8th August 2007, 05:08 PM

Still waiting for that thread: Do you think the regulations preventing unlicensed people from doing their own wiring should be revoked?

Done - see "Polls":)

bricks

8th August 2007, 08:10 PM

The Electrical & Gas industry is run by the O.T.R - Office of the Technical Regulator.

Little known fact about the O.T.R - They are the only government department in this country which is not funded by the government.

The liscence fees that Gasfitters and Electricians pay in this counrty go solely to the O.T.R for 100% or their funding. This is why regular tradies pay a liscence fee and Contractors pay a contractors fee ( which is higher) Because contractors also have to pay for the inspections that will be done on their work from time to time.
The problem with Un-liscenced people doing any work in Liscenced trades is that their work will NEVER be inspected until something goes wrong. Therein lies the problem- how do you ensure compliance on a DIY job, no-body knows it even exists?

Their should be an Avenue for home owners to do their own work- by submitting an "intention to carry out work" form followed up by a mandatory inspection which would have to be paid for- probably at an hourly rate for the inspector- or certified by a contractor who inspects the work at each stage. Why would DIYers need to pay for the inspections- because all tradesmen pay for them- thats what our liscence fees are for.

Of course DIY cowboys would not get the mandatory inspections to save a few bucks and now we are back to square one.

How the hell do you regulate a DIY industry where IMO most of the peanuts who do the dodgy work believe they are above the law and therefore are not going to comply with anything- Those types of people probably dont even register on a forum like this because they couldn't give a rats a%^$ what anyone else thinks. Like those clowns that ask "can i do this" and someone replys "no you cant its illegal" they then go on to argue the point why it "is legal and they are doing it anyway" why even ask the question, is it just so you can stick it up a tradie?

In summary ( sorry for the rant) Theres no way to regulate a DIY industry that doesn't want to be regulated - if you dont submitt the correct forms , high chance is you won't be caught unless you kill someone or wreck property. - and yes liscenced trades need to be regulated for saftey and compliance, We all hear no end the amount of liscenced trades doing dodgy& dangerous things. Imagine the DIY disaster.

What really gets me going is cowboys contracting out to an un-suspecting public without a liscence or the training.

My two cents and a bit more.

http://www.technicalregulator.sa.gov.au/public/about_us.html

Tas_Dean

8th August 2007, 08:51 PM

The Electrical & Gas industry is run by the O.T.R - Office of the Technical Regulator.
<SNIP>
What really gets me going is cowboys contracting out to an un-suspecting public without a liscence or the training.

My two cents and a bit more.

Well said, all of it, including what I cut out!

Is their really people contracting out without any licenses?

Here in Tasmania, all advertising done by electricians must include their contractors license number. This includes Yellow Pages, the signs on their vehicles and workshops, everything. It's not uncommon to see contractors license numbers on their job adds (where the business has advertised their name, obviously not if they only list replies to a PO box), although I'm not sure whether the OTR will push the issue that far on job adds.
Many electrical contractors have been fined for omitting this number from adds, so obviously it is checked upon.

I know apprentices and etc do "cashies", but I haven't really heard of unlicensed people advertising. Maybe some people that advertise as "handyman" services overstep the mark somewhat.

JDarvall

8th August 2007, 09:01 PM

Do the DIY,s know the rules and understand the risks of doing it themselves?
How do they know that it was wired correctly in the first place?
How do they know that the circuit is dead before they work on it?(Leaving the light on and pulling the fuse and watching the light go out doesn't guarantee that everything is dead.)
Do they have the appropriate test equipment to test for dead?
Do they have appropriate test equipment to test the insulation resistance and do they know what the minimum insulation resistance is and how to test for it?
Do they know what the maximum earth resistance is and how to test for it?
Do they know what the maximum number of points allowable on a particular circuit is and the correct cable size for the protection?
Do they know about correct earthing requirements?
If the DIY'er answers no to any of these questions (and dozens more) then they probably shouldn't be doing the job themselves as a licensed electrician should know the answer and should not only make sure that the item that he is working on is installed correctly but also that the rest of the circuit is safe and up to standards. Remember that just because the power point works or the light switches on does not mean that the job has been done safely and up to standards.
I am only posting this as i have seen quite a few DIY jobs that have been extremely dangerous.
.

I don't know. I'm an idiot.

ok, a hypooothetical situation .....say I've got a new switch in my hand from bunnings..:rolleyes: ....and on the wall in front of me is an old switch thats worked everyday up till recently and I want to replace it so I can turn the hall light on again....tell me where I could have killed myself.

I went out to the box and turned the power off. The whole house goes dead. All the lights off. The misses screams out........Clearly its off like every other time I've done it.

But I check to ensure its off with one of those voltage pens from dick smiths that I tested prior to turning the power off anyway. The pen doesn't light up, nothings getting power :2tsup: :rolleyes:

I unscrew the thing, pull it out from the wall. Touch the wires and sigh a relief that I'm still alive..... There's 3 wires going into it. two of the wires are bound together in the same terminal. just two terminals. I think ' well the switch must close/open these terminals to the light. ' .......I disconnect the terminals. check for a continuity test with my dick smiths multimeter on the old switch . I check the multimeters set right...uno..beeps when I cross the sticks:rolleyes: . When I flick the switch, I realise that its not beeping at all in either switch position..........ie. the switch is not closing the circuit. Its stuffed.

So , how do I know which way the wires go on the new switch that I'm about to install ? Well same check on the new switch to find out which terminals open/close when I switch and just use those terminals. Doesn't matter which is which as long as I use those two. I mean, so I assume.

screw it all up tight. Tug on the wires to check. Everything looks fine. Screw the new switch in the wall, turn the power back on ........and it works.

Was I lucky ? Where could have I killed myself. Am I killing my family if I do this.....As an electrician would have you considered things like .........

maximum earth resistance
maximum insulation resistance
scratching me balls
correct earthing requirements
maximum number of points
picked me nose
and the dozern others

.........
for a job like that..........

or would have you just picked up the efen switch and installed it just like I did and charged me $300 for it ? ... try and nock off a couple more jobs like that before lunch.

bricks

8th August 2007, 09:29 PM

Tas_Dean

8th August 2007, 09:54 PM

JDarvall

8th August 2007, 10:50 PM

The first thing he would have checked is the globe and socket...( duh)
In the middle he would have checked for overloading of the circuit/switch...Also burnout and shorting....
The last thing he would have checked is the entire circuit... to ensure that there are no other hidden problems...( required by law)

Well I did check the globe first........even got the ladder out. I thought I detailed enough.

the switch was clearly not working as normal. Press it and it wouldn't flick properly like every other switch in the house (duh :D )...

Knowing that, do you think most electricians would bother checking everything else you mentioned , with a dumb looking bloke like me saying .........' duuuuhm, whaaaaats that thing ? '....or maybe they'd would if only to burn a bit more time and look as if their earning there $300

JDarvall

8th August 2007, 10:53 PM

And he certainly wouldn't have touched the wires. Treat them all as if they are live!

A hot neutral is a danger on light switches also.

The light up pens, whilst they are reasonable, I would not trust my life to one.

I wouldn't touch it to test it. I was just being a wanker.

So, even with the entire house dead, and the pen registering it as dead, you'd still fiddle about trying to get the wires in the terminals without ever touching the exposed wires ? ...

Not having a go......... just curious........all electricians do that as well ? fiddle about all day long worrying about touching exposed wires after that kind of certainty ?

pharmaboy2

8th August 2007, 11:08 PM

I wouldn't touch it to test it. I was just being a wanker.

So, even with the entire house dead, and the pen registering it as dead, you'd fiddle about awkwardly with, what, plyers only (like one in each hand) trying to get the wires in the terminals without ever touching the wires ? ...

Not having a go......... just curious........all electricians do that as well ?
LOL, same as all electricians go through the entire house and count the GPO's on a circuit with a multimeter before changing a single over to a double! ;)

Funny, isnt it, a homeowner can stick a balcony up at the back of their place without a chippie, stack 40 drunk people on it, and alls rosey, but stuff me, pulling out the red and black wire and putten back in a new switch instantly burns your little baby alive, and lands you in jail for 3 life terms! ;)

Good thing those americans and poms and New Zealanders are so much smarter than us Aussies..............

boban

8th August 2007, 11:45 PM

4. In some cases blue wires are not negative/neutral (ever heard of blue phase Boban?) you may not have broken the law by posting that, but if humans were still dependant on the food chain, you'd go hungry.

Yes, but you know I was talking about single phase and was making a point about what could be discussed and further that education was the key. It was merely an example I used to make a point. That view however might not be as convenient to your criticism however.

And just as you like being smart, is the blue phase (a bright blue) found in the company of the brown active, or is it found in the company of the white and red phases.

I think you have proved my point about people just waiting for something to jump on.

I think you should play the ball. Not that I even understand what you mean by that food chain statement.

Having read the balance of your post, it appears that we are in agreement about getting the correct information. As I've said before and you've repeated, its readily available from Standards Australia.

The funny thing is, I don't even need to do my own electrical nor do I have to pay for having someone do it.

I don't know why I even bother posting on this forum. Perhaps I'm being a big girl, but someone should just ban me and put me out of my misery. See ya.

Yonnee

9th August 2007, 01:46 AM

Having a mate who was a sparky or not, it would be a sparky employed to do the work that was required of him...
...done at "mate's rates", and at a time convenient to yourself.

$200 a week for a 1st year apprentice is the harsh reality of it, always has been and if your 16, living at home with mum and dad paying the bills, doing your washing, wiping your backside still then why not do a trade? I believe it comes down to a lack of willingness to do a bit of hard work combined with the lure of big dollars in administrative and IT work that shies kids away from doing trades these days.
But the point I was making is that an apprenticeship is the ONLY way you can become a sparky, so who else other than a 16 yr old living at home can afford to do it? At 35 with a wife, two kids and a mortgage, I certainly couldn't. Why shouldn't you be able to do a Tafe course to perform limited tasks such as running wiring, fitting light switches and GPO's, to then get it inspected by a licenced inspector?

As far as I understood, owner builders had to do a course of some description, still had to employ a chippie, a brickie, a sparky, a plumber, a roof tiler, a waterproofer, a wall/floor tiler, a plasterer, a glazier, a concretor, a cabinet maker, a carpet layer etc. etc. and the final result of a permanent dwelling still has to pass the councils final inspection.........
A mate of mine has recently moved into a house that he and his wife built from scratch by filling out an application form to owner build, and the only help they had was with the final architectural drawings, the external frame (all internal walls done themselves), bricklaying and the roof tiles. The plumbing and electrics were done by the wife's qualified brothers and everything else was done by themselves. (She's an accountant and He's in IT. No course, no qualifications.)

Does every one who changes his own brake pads mic. up their discs to see if they are within acceptible tolerances? Machine theyre discs/shoes if necessary? Check wheel bearings/tie-rod ends/balljoints while its jacked up? Know how to carry out these checks? Know how to read tyre wear for signs of underlying front-end problems? Know the correct tyre pressures to run on?

No, no, no, no, no, & no... but the point I was making here was the fact that you DON'T have to be qualified to perform Mechanical work at home and you have just as much chance of killing someone by a dodgy brake or suspension overhaul as the dodgy wiring.

Last time I checked, a trailer with a load capacity of 4500kg needed to be towed behind a truck with an aggregate weight rating of around 11,000kg, a trailer of such capacity would have to go through stringent scrutineering, the details of which Im not sure of, before it was allowed to even be parked on the road. Not something you could knock up out of a bit of steel from bunnies and a few trailer bits from supercrap over a box of stubbies with a few mates on a sunday arvo.

Check again! You might be the plumber, but I'm the trailer specialist.
The regulations for building small trailers here in Australia are a National code for doing so and are applicable for trailers with a GVM of 1 to 4500kg. The only item that requires an Australian Standard is your coupling, and your drawbar is supposed to be able to cope with longitudinal and lateral stresses calculated from the carrying capacity. I say "supposed to", because as long as it looks like it might do the job, there is no test done for it, and it will usually pass registration. Unless you've made it from Balsa wood... but Hey, there's nothing in the reg's to say you can't!

The national regulations for towing trailers is 1.5 times the unladen weight of the tow vehicle (or the manuf'rs maximum), so you'd only need a 3000kg tow vehicle with the right tow hitch (A 90's model Discovery can tow 4000kg and an 80/100 series L/Cruiser 3500kg).

Joe Blow can build you a trailer in his own back shed, with no experience and no welding skills, he buys his axles with brakes, spring set and coupling from a trailer parts supplier rated to do the job, and that trailer can be registered up to 4500kg with little or no problem at all! And certainly no scrutineering other than to see if the lights work.

Yonnee

9th August 2007, 01:57 AM

Correct regarding appliances, incorrect regarding caravans. Electrical wiring for relocatable premises (including caravans and tents) carries it's own standards - AS3001:2001. Must be done by a licensed electrician and a certificate of compliance must be attached to the relocatable premises. Caravan parks can refuse to supply a power connection without the certificate, and registration can be refused without the certificate also.

I stood corrected earlier and I'll stand again.:2tsup: "AS3001:2001" The course I did was prior to 2000 and as I understand now the regulation has been tightened, and the loophole closed.:U

Yonnee

9th August 2007, 02:13 AM

But aren't we getting away from the original question of "What am I allowed to do?"

The simple answer is N-O-T-H-I-N-G-:!

No matter how much we debate it, as fun and enjoyable as it is, and how ridiculous some of us think the laws are, the fact of the matter is you're not supposed to touch it...
...the prosecution rests your Honour.

Despite this, I have seen any answers to the question some of us are asking about the difference between a sparky changing a fitting, and a competent D.I.Y'er changing the same fitting using all the due care and attention it requires.

JDarvall

9th August 2007, 07:28 AM

The simple answer is N-O-T-H-I-N-G-:!

No matter how much we debate it, as fun and enjoyable as it is, and how ridiculous some of us think the laws are, the fact of the matter is you're not supposed to touch it...
...the prosecution rests your Honour.

.

Like hell it does.

Doesn't rest because people break it and will always break it. And there motivated to do it. Cause tradesman generally are a rip off......' I deeeserve the money ! cause, unlike everyone else.........I had to live at home with my mum,,,,and endure her having to wash me skid marks off during my apprenticeship.....and her great cooking. Probably the healthist time of my life, be gee it was hard !'

If you don't want people to break it, you better group together and push for more enforcement. Uno, a serious chance of getting caught and maybe some jail time. :oo: . Don't like your chances but goodluck. First might be a good idea to try and make it illegal for electrical parts to be purchased by anyone else but an electrician.

silentC

9th August 2007, 09:15 AM

And they're motivated to do it.
And by all you blokes who tell them it's ok, they wont get caught and they wont kill themselves!

It's not a matter of whether I want people to break the law or not. Already told you, I don't give a rats what you do. I think it's irresponsible to encourage people on a public forum to break the law, which is what you are doing.

MrFixIt

9th August 2007, 10:54 AM

My electrician friend was recently called out to check and finish of a job after some wiring work had been done by the homeowner.

He saw that some of that wiring was behind plaster and some in conduits, because he couldn't see and inspect all the wiring he refused and quoted on replacing all the wiring already done by the homeowner.

As his quote wasn't accepted he reported the matter to the Office of Electrical Safety, as he was required to do, and the same day the power company disconnected the supply because of illegal wiring.

A full and complete inspection and certification by an electrician was required to get the power back on. Hence no cost savings.

Peter.

..and JUST HOW is THAT inspection going to happen if electrcians like your friend cannot see or inspect the wires?

...if an electrician did the wiring in the same way does that mean it is ok?

There are "cowboys" in every industry and the electrical trade is NOT exempt.

I have been told, though have not witnessed, that electricians now just chase the wall and insert the cable directly WITHOUT conduit. I do not know how true this is.

MrFixIt

9th August 2007, 11:56 AM

Hi

A PRIME example of a "COWBOY" electrcian occurred at my place some years ago.

We had garden lighting installed in the front garden. The lights were powered by a very large 240 > 12v transformer.

The landscape gardener doing the garden and the lights employed a FULLY QUALIFIED and LICENSED to install the wiring to the new lights.

The electrician moved a sliding window shutter so that he could install the wiring through flexible conduit to the "potable" (ie buried underground) transformer. I came over to see the progress and instantly saw his error! He then tried to moved the shutter back. Ahhh? the window shutter hits the conduit :doh: Mistake number 1, though not dangerous.

The SAME FULLY QUALIFIED and LICENSED electrician installed a sensor to actrivate the garden lights at night time.

The sensor does require THREE wires. Active, neutral and the trigger wire that powers on the potable transformer. (No earth connection required as the sensor is double insulated)

Did he (the FULLY QUALIFIED and LICENSED electrician) run two red wires and a black wire? NO WAY! Why on earth (pardon the pun) would he run wires like that when he has a perfectly capable three core mains cable :no: He could then use the red and black to power the sensor and run the return power throught the THIRD cable - it DIDN'T MATTER TO HIM that the third cable is coloured GREEN AND YELLOW!!! :o

Not only did he (the FULLY QUALIFIED and LICENSED electrician) do this ILLEGAL wiring, he DELIBERATELY went to great lengths to HIDE this illegal connection. Mistake?? number 2, DEADLY :o

Hmmm? I wonder why I treat some tradespeople with contempt. It is and has been a well known fact around here (and I assume elsewhere) that GOOD tradespeople, of ANY trade, are very hard to find.

All too often I find that any tradespeople that I use - usually because of my own time constraints - have to be watched or monitored to make sure they do their job properly. It is NOT just me that feels this need, all my neighbours feel the same, they cannot just expect the job to be done properly otherwise!

Yet another example of poor tradesman ...

I have a 6 > 10m extension ladder that I occasionally "break out" to trim a tall garden palm. It's a PITA to drag it out and extened it up to about 8-9m to trim the palm. I also find it difficult to access some of the palm leaves without taking down and again putting up the ladder.

I am slow at pruning the palm as I only use a small pull saw. I get the job done, but I detest doing it.

I succumbed this time (without protest :U ) to using the same "tree guy" that was doing my neighbours palms. He seemed to do a good job. However a week or two later he had to come back. He did NOT cut the seed pods properly and had "knicked" one of the palm leaves with his chainsaw and this leaf was now hanging down :doh:

The list goes on.....

I therefore STILL advocate that *IF* you can do it yourself and have the knowledge and capability then YOUR work could very easily be better than these so called "tradespeople" (tardypeople?).

silentC

9th August 2007, 12:06 PM

No-one is saying that every trademan that holds a license is on the ball. I'd be the last person to say that - especially after the Cowboy thread I posted a couple of weeks ago.

There are also plenty of unlicensed Cowboys running around. I bet a lot of them think they are pretty good at fixing things, too. I used to meet a few of them when I was renting in Sydney.

As far as I can tell, no-one has argued that the work of a DIYer might not possibly be better than the work of some licensed tradies.

But your *IF* is a pretty big one. How do you know that you have the knowledge? You might think you do, but how do you know you do? If you haven't done the training and sat the exams, how do you know you know? People keep saying that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Maybe your knowledge is 20 years out of date and based on half understood theory and watching bad tradesmen. Have you read the wiring standards? Have you read the testing and inspection standard?

NCArcher

9th August 2007, 12:16 PM

Hi

He could then use the red and black to power the sensor and run the return power throught the THIRD cable - it DIDN'T MATTER TO HIM that the third cable is coloured GREEN AND YELLOW!!! :o

Not only did he (the FULLY QUALIFIED and LICENSED electrician) do this ILLEGAL wiring, he DELIBERATELY went to great lengths to HIDE this illegal connection. Mistake?? number 2, DEADLY :o

I'd just like to piont out that it is not illegal to use the third core in the cable as long as the core is sleeved with an appropriate colour (usually red, white or any active colour heat shrink) at either end.

wonderplumb

9th August 2007, 06:35 PM

Check again! You might be the plumber, but I'm the trailer specialist.
The regulations for building small trailers here in Australia are a National code for doing so and are applicable for trailers with a GVM of 1 to 4500kg. The only item that requires an Australian Standard is your coupling, and your drawbar is supposed to be able to cope with longitudinal and lateral stresses calculated from the carrying capacity. I say "supposed to", because as long as it looks like it might do the job, there is no test done for it, and it will usually pass registration. Unless you've made it from Balsa wood... but Hey, there's nothing in the reg's to say you can't!

The national regulations for towing trailers is 1.5 times the unladen weight of the tow vehicle (or the manuf'rs maximum), so you'd only need a 3000kg tow vehicle with the right tow hitch (A 90's model Discovery can tow 4000kg and an 80/100 series L/Cruiser 3500kg).

Joe Blow can build you a trailer in his own back shed, with no experience and no welding skills, he buys his axles with brakes, spring set and coupling from a trailer parts supplier rated to do the job, and that trailer can be registered up to 4500kg with little or no problem at all! And certainly no scrutineering other than to see if the lights work.

Sorry mate I stand corrected I was on a different train of thought in reference to trailers................
Just for the record Im not here taking personal shots at anyone, Im not trying to keep certain trades a "closed shop" but am merely trying to state the fact that its illegal, and if Tafe wants to run a course so you can do basic wiring or water plumbing, PROVIDED its inspected by an INSPECTOR from the respective authorities then by all means gun it. Its just a shame that theres heroes out there that Think they know it all and go ahead and do such jobs, and I have seen some pretty nasty work done by these types of people with some costly results.

JDarvall

9th August 2007, 08:41 PM

And by all you blokes who tell them it's ok, they wont get caught and they wont kill themselves!

It's not a matter of whether I want people to break the law or not. Already told you, I don't give a rats what you do. I think it's irresponsible to encourage people on a public forum to break the law, which is what you are doing.

Meeeee !........how bout Yooooooooou !....... A few pages back you encouraged the public to jaywalk !.....remember .....:no: tut tut. have you no shame ? you of alllll people.

You've probably killed someone already. Some blokes probably read your thoughts on jaywalking and instead of crossing properly at zebra crossings like he'd always done, has jaywalked instead, and been cleaned up by a bus ! :no: goodness gracious.

Tas_Dean

9th August 2007, 09:08 PM

I'd just like to piont out that it is not illegal to use the third core in the cable as long as the core is sleeved with an appropriate colour (usually red, white or any active colour heat shrink) at either end.

I think you will find AS300:2000 prevents sleeving an earth wire. Any other colour yes, but not earth. Prior to the 2000 revision you could sleeve an earth, but not since. Someone with a copy of 3000:2000 might clarify that for us.

Yonnee, the rules for caravan wiring stood long before the 2001 revision. Somewhere around here I have a copy of the 1993 revision, or did have. I'm not saying that that's not what you were told, but the rules certainly have been around for a fair while.

So, even with the entire house dead, and the pen registering it as dead, you'd still fiddle about trying to get the wires in the terminals without ever touching the exposed wires ? ...

No stuffing around required. That's what long nose pliers are for.

Yonnee

9th August 2007, 09:53 PM

Just for the record Im not here taking personal shots at anyone,...
Neither am I mate.:2tsup: All for a good healthy debate.

Yonnee

9th August 2007, 10:10 PM

Yonnee, the rules for caravan wiring stood long before the 2001 revision. Somewhere around here I have a copy of the 1993 revision, or did have. I'm not saying that that's not what you were told, but the rules certainly have been around for a fair while.

I realise there's probably been some sort of reg's since the old SEC as I recall seeing SEC stickers on some older caravans windows, but as for what we were training for was using a plug-in tester that showed whether a GPO was wired correctly, and if it wasn't, it was better if you didn't touch it... BUT... If you had to make it safe...

It certainly wasn't a recommendation for complete re-wiring of an entire Caravan.

another termite

10th August 2007, 01:33 AM

I'd just like to piont out that it is not illegal to use the third core in the cable as long as the core is sleeved with an appropriate colour (usually red, white or any active colour heat shrink) at either end.
According to the Australian wireing rules 3000:2000 rule 3.8.2 green/yellow, Green or Yellow colour insulated conductors shall not be sleeved to indicate live conductors

JDarvall

10th August 2007, 06:34 AM

No stuffing around required. That's what long nose pliers are for.

right.

Well, I seen a couple of electricians roll the tip of unsheathed wires in there finger tips after just turning the mains power off....to get the job done faster. Professional looking blokes. Been there , seen everything sort of bloke.

Another bloke. younger bloke this time,,,,used a voltage tester light, then did it as well.

So they were being reckless eh ?

silentC

10th August 2007, 09:19 AM

So they were being reckless eh ?
Yeah, and the mongrels probably jaywalk too.

It's a steady decline into anarchy when you start twisting wires with your bare fingers. Not to mention rough on the fingertips.

Honorary Bloke

10th August 2007, 09:39 AM

There's a word that describes this thread, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Silent, can you help out? Is the word inane? :wink:

silentC

10th August 2007, 09:48 AM

I don't know but I bet zeroseven wishes he'd never opened his mouth!!

If it's any consolation, zeroseven, these threads always end up this way. Some of us can't help ourselves. :D

zeroseven

10th August 2007, 11:11 AM

I don't know but I bet zeroseven wishes he'd never opened his mouth!!

If it's any consolation, zeroseven, these threads always end up this way. Some of us can't help ourselves. :D

:) I was expecting a couple of replies along the lines of you can do X but certainly not Y. But this is much more exciting with people getting into a good old fashioned healthy debate about it.

I'm still waiting for someone to argue the reasons for not being able to do your own plumbing because it could go horribly wrong and the house could, err....float away...or my tiles could get wet. I'm sure there must be far more serious reasons or the law wouldn't be in place, would it?

silentC

10th August 2007, 11:20 AM

I think the main reason is because you are connecting to utility services, like the water main and the sewer main. There are also sanitary issues - someone fiddling with sewerage who doesn't know what they're doing can cause serious health problems. And then there is gas.

But as I've said, I think safety has relatively little to do with the situation concerning electrical work and I think it is the same for plumbing.

I tried to find legislation covering people doing their own plumbing work in their own house but couldn't. I don't think it's as clear cut as it is for wiring. Could be it's legal in your own house, I'm not sure. That's why I haven't really gotten into that debate, hoping others would know.

Gra

10th August 2007, 11:22 AM

I. There are also sanitary issues - someone fiddling with sewerage who doesn't know what they're doing

Can end up in deep s??t

chrisp

10th August 2007, 11:33 AM

I'm still waiting for someone to argue the reasons for not being able to do your own plumbing because it could go horribly wrong and the house could, err....float away...or my tiles could get wet. I'm sure there must be far more serious reasons or the law wouldn't be in place, would it?

Oh, there are lots of reasons - slow leak behind the wall damaging the structure, mixing up sewage and storm water, etc.

I think all these reasons wear a little thin after awhile as a lot of us have seem leaks from work done by licenced plumbers. It's a bit like the don't touch electrical stuff or you'll risk killing yourself or people - sounds reasonable in theory but in reality the perceived risk seems to be way out of proportion to the actual risk.

I think most people here are the types who take pride in their work and will try and do a good job - especially on their own house. The trick is to ensure that the "system" is such that the appropriate information and training is available and accessible.

silentC

10th August 2007, 11:42 AM

leaks from work done by licenced plumbers
When you build a house, the plumber is required to pressure test all the lines, so there shouldn't be any leaks. I don't know if that is true for extensions of existing work though. But like electrical, plumbing work is self-certified. Our council inspection of the plumbing consisted of whacking bungs in the sewer lines and filling them up with water. He came along and saw there was water in the top of the pipe penetrations and that was good enough. Didn't care about the water or gas.

The gas requires a compliance plate, which includes a license number. They're not supposed to let you connect bottled gas to a service that doesn't have a current compliance plate - I assume it's the same for town gas. You would need to have a licensed person inspect it and provide the compliance plate if you did your own. The guy who installed our regulator is the same guy who delivers the gas. We still don't have a compliance plate!

zeroseven

10th August 2007, 11:53 AM

Gas, I can totally understand. I wouldn't think anyone in any country is legally allowed to have a fiddle with gas.

But if I want to take out my old kitchen sink and put in a new one there is nothing that can go wrong, it doesn't matter that I'm connecting to a utility service or that the sky today happens to be blue. I cannot mix up storm water, sewage water, soapy water or holy water.

However if I want to install a new toilet, in a brand new position, then this is totally different.

It seems that one rule covers all which in most life situations just doesn't work.

Electrical work - The one rule covers all applies as well. You have the extreme, how the UK used to be, where anyone could come along and rewire their entire house with nothing but some old cable and four brain cells. But I believe they've recently changed to allowing basic electrics, light switches/sockets. Then for more, presumably higher risk jobs, having you pay for an inspector to come in to certify your work.

I'm far from certain about the current laws, just happened to be searching the Collins DIY book, which is printed for the UK market, at the weekend in Dymocks and so has all of the new laws for electrical work in there.

silentC

10th August 2007, 11:58 AM

It seems that one rule covers all which in most life situations just doesn't work.
What I'm saying is that I don't know what the rule is, I couldn't find it. All the regulations I have seen regarding plumbing concern what license is required to do plumbing work commercially. I can't go and install a new sink for you because I'm not licensed. As far as I know, I can't charge you to change a tap washer either, for the same reason.

I couldn't find anything that precludes you from doing things like that in your own house. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, I just couldn't find it.

If you have time, try looking through the legislation section (http://www.nsw.gov.au/Law_results.asp?SEARCH_KEYS=ACTS_NSWLEGSYS_LAW_ORDER_SNSW&DISPLAY=The+NSW+Legal+System+%3E+Legislation) of the NSW State Government web site. While you're there, you can have a look through the Electricity (Consumer Safety) Act.

chrisp

10th August 2007, 12:27 PM

When you build a house, the plumber is required to pressure test all the lines, so there shouldn't be any leaks. I don't know if that is true for extensions of existing work though.

I'm not sure either about "existing work" being pressure tested. When I refitted my laundry I had the plumbing redone as it was previously on the surface of the internal walls (ugly). I stripped the walls and had a plumber redo the plumbing (with new taps and fitting). It all looked okay but a day or two I noticed a slight wet patch on the floor. I think you can work out the rest. I redid or retightened one of the connections and the leak stopped. Of course I checked the other connects he did as well.

I'm not too concerned about this as anyone can make a mistake. But it does get up my nose a bit when plumbers claim that DIYers won't do it right.

JDarvall

10th August 2007, 02:45 PM

Yeah, and the mongrels probably jaywalk too.

:D I don't know. But you definetly do. You admitted it AND you said it publicly.........AND you said it a encouraging way......AND as you well know, what we say can get people killed....... :no: Its ILLEGAL silent !......its just so staggering that you just don't get it YET .

. Not to mention rough on the fingertips.
oh, your poor fingertips. :rolleyes: .

Well you better take a grasp of this situation Silent. PRONTO. I've seen 2 electricians do it that way. Just imagine how many out there would be doing it.....that could be killed if they continue with such an unsafe method. Better make a few calls eh and put a stop to it.

And you'd better get one of the moderators to delete your coments on jaywalking while your at it, if you haven't already done so........Your comments have already killed one bloke. Just imagine the guilt you'll feel if another jaywalked on your encouragement. :oo::no: honestly...

pharmaboy2

10th August 2007, 03:21 PM

But it does get up my nose a bit when plumbers claim that DIYers won't do it right.

As an aside, i've never come across a holier than though plumber or electrician that doesnt recognise that DIY work goes on, nor do they seem to care. the leco I had in the other day, just said, there isnt enough lecos in the country to come close to been able to install all the GPO's, swithc replacements, new lights etc -.

Its only on forums it would seem that I have ever struck a restricted trade that gets uppety about it - now just maybe they aint so uppety in the real world, as typing on a computer gives you the option of arguing for the sake of arguing, and also not with someone who maybe paying your wages that day! ;)

As has been said, gas is a no brainer - stuff it up and really and truly people can get killed rather easily, but as has been said for the rest, its no different to bricklaying, carpentry, concreting - they can alll just as easily kill people as lektrickety and water (?)!

silentC

10th August 2007, 04:12 PM

AND you said it a encouraging way
Now you just go back and read what I wrote. Bet you can't find anywhere that I actually advised anyone that they should go ahead and break the law by jaywalking. I said I do it, I said that it was illegal and people get fined for it. But nowhere did I say "you should do it if you think you have the ability". Huh? Huh? Got you there...

bennylaird

10th August 2007, 04:19 PM

How many times do we have this type of thread? Like politics and supporting Collingwood, we will never get agreement.

Howdya do that

10th August 2007, 04:20 PM

Pizza anyone???

mick101

10th August 2007, 04:39 PM

As has been said, gas is a no brainer - stuff it up and really and truly people can get killed rather easily

What do you think happens when you dont check a neutral correctly ? Or a DIY'er thinks that he can check the neutral correctly with 3 phase with going from supply to neutral with the 3 fuses in ? Whilst i dont fool with gas at all..in the very least you get the chance to maybe smell it unlike a poor neutral thats ready to let go.

Stuff up a neutral & you can find your kid dead beside the bathroom sink with the bloody toothbrush still in their hand at bed time.

mick101

10th August 2007, 04:46 PM

Pizza anyone???
Yeah get another 12 on the way.

chrisp

10th August 2007, 04:56 PM

Stuff up a neutral & you can find your kid dead beside the bathroom sink with the bloody toothbrush still in their hand at bed time.

That is a rather emotional response.

Exactly what kind of tooth brush are your kids using? The ones I've seen are battery operated and recharged using an inductive (non contact) charging caddy. The older ones with cords would are at least double insulated (there should not be a problem with an earthed one). I can't see any problems with the old manual ones:rolleyes:.

Just how is it that "you can find your kid dead beside the bathroom sink with the bloody toothbrush still in their hand" because of a neutral problem?

mick101

10th August 2007, 05:04 PM

That is a rather emotional response.

Exactly what kind of tooth brush are your kids using? The ones I've seen are battery operated and recharged using an inductive (non contact) charging caddy. The older ones with cords would are at least double insulated (there should not be a problem with an earthed one). I can't see any problems with the old manual ones:rolleyes:.

Just how is it that "you can find your kid dead beside the bathroom sink with the bloody toothbrush still in their hand" because of a neutral problem?

Again i rest my case. What do you think happens in an house hold elec cct when a neutral fails ??? If you cant answer that without blinking then you should not be touching house wiring what so ever.

chrisp

10th August 2007, 05:08 PM

Again i rest my case. What do you think happens in an house hold elec cct when a neutral fails ??? If you cant answer that without blinking then you should not be touching house wiring what so ever.

Mick,

Don't hide behind the "if you have to ask..." comment.

Please explain the tooth brush theory of yours. I'm truly interested in your logic or reasoning:D

Chris

Tas_Dean

10th August 2007, 05:19 PM

Mick,

Don't hide behind the "if you have to ask..." comment.

Please explain the tooth brush theory of yours. I'm truly interested in your logic or reasoning:D

Chris

Nothing to do with the toothbrush at all, that was just his scenario.

Do you turn the bathroom tap on when you brush your teeth???

mick101

10th August 2007, 05:20 PM

Nothing to do with the toothbrush at all, that was just his scenario.

Do you turn the bathroom tap on when you brush your teeth???
They are not thinking that far ahead mate.

silentC

10th August 2007, 05:24 PM

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=14723

:)

chrisp

10th August 2007, 05:27 PM

Tas_dean and mick101,

You are still not answering the question.

Please explain your scenario and how it ends in a fatality. Otherwise I suspect you are just talking crap.

Come on:

The kid has a tooth brush, let's make it electric,
the tap is turned on.
one hand on the tooth brush, or brush in their mouth,
other hand in the water...Now, you explain how "you can find your kid dead beside the bathroom sink with the bloody toothbrush still in their hand" because of a neutral problem.

mick101

10th August 2007, 05:53 PM

God help us all if they ever allow any level of DIY'ers. You guys just cant be told...but you all want to save some dollars 'eh ? Dont worry about not understanding how a basic household MEN system works & its relation to keeping your family alive...its that pesky red wire thats the only one that you think kills anyway 'eh ? ...you need to save money, thats all thats important.

Im gone again ...someone else can have my pizza.

chrisp

10th August 2007, 06:00 PM

Dont worry about not understanding how a basic household MEN system works & its relation to keeping your family alive...its that pesky red wire thats the only one that you think kills anyway 'eh ? ...you need to save money, thats all thats important.

I've got a fairly good understanding of the MEN system. I'm just asking you to substantiate your claim in your scenario. It's not too much to ask, is it?

mick101

10th August 2007, 06:09 PM

I've got a fairly good understanding of the MEN system.
No you dont...you just proved it in writting mate...not having a chop at you but if you dont know what im talking about (any 1st apprentice year house sparky should) then you are the perfect example of why we are so flamin' ???? scared of any industry deregulation.

Thats really it this time...heat the pizza up for someone else.

Vernonv

10th August 2007, 06:15 PM

Mick, you seem to be spending a lot of time NOT answering the question:rolleyes: .
I also would be interested in the answer. What's wrong with educating the electrically inept? Do you think the answer will some how encourage us to rewire our entire house?

chrisp

10th August 2007, 06:20 PM

Mick,

The only reason I keep replying to this thread is that I think what you have posted is alarmist.

If you can explain a scenario that can end up with the results stated then please do.

If not, please retract the alarmist comment.

I'm out of here for now - I've got to go.

Tas_Dean

10th August 2007, 06:22 PM

Have a look at page four of this document, issued by Workplace Standards Tasmania.

http://www.wst.tas.gov.au/electricity/attach/essbulletin4-6.pdf

Edit: Page one explains a bit too!

chrisp

10th August 2007, 06:33 PM

Have a look at page four of this document, issued by Workplace Standards Tasmania.

http://www.wst.tas.gov.au/electricity/attach/essbulletin4-6.pdf

Edit: Page one explains a bit too!

Yep, I understand that loosing the Earth-Neutral bond bit and how it results in tinkles.

But, walk me through the scenario:
The kid has a tooth brush, let's make it electric,
the tap is turned on.
one hand on the tooth brush, or brush in their mouth,
other hand in the water...and explain how "you can find your kid dead beside the bathroom sink with the bloody toothbrush still in their hand" because of a neutral problem.

thatirwinfella

10th August 2007, 07:04 PM

chrisp, here's an answer.

assume the house doesn't have an rcd [many still don't] and that the toothbrush is a plugin, not battery powered. if the neutral wasn't connected, the only possible return path for current would be through any exposed metal of the toothbrush [unlikely that the brush is either metallic or plugin]. the metal is hence inside the kids mouth, right near the brain. it's wet. so there would be a reasonable current path into the kids mouth. the path continues down the arm to the tap or water. the water going down the drain, or the pipe will be bonded to earth at somepoint. this completes the current path.

the kid now receives a belt through the mouth, possibly causing brain damage. this overload will only stop if the current racing through his body [and the rest of the circuit] exceeds the rating of the breaker or fuses. there is a longer time delay for fuses too. this kid has now recieved a fair amperage to his brain. also through his chest, lungs and heart. there will be sever burns to his hands and mouth.

this faulty neutral could have been anywhere within the circuit, swithboard or even the toothbrush itself.

even if there was an rcd, the kid will still receive a belt of 30mA, which while not considered enough to normally kill an adult [it's around 300mA i think, severe injuries would still occur] the situation [a kid in wet circumstances getting a belt to the head and chest] could still cause death.

does that answer your question?

chrisp, you probably know my feelings enough on the bulk of the topic so i won't delve into that, there are pages enough of my ramblings.

bricks

10th August 2007, 07:40 PM

here's your answer ( one of many scenarios). PS im a plumber.

In a house it is entirely possible that electric current through earth leakage can travel down through water pipes (and sewer aswell if is lead or gav.)

This current is present in all the water pipes when there is a earth leakage present and the house - as in all old houses and some new ones- is earthed through the water.

Why- sparkys used to earth all houses through the water because the water would eventually go to ground ( street mains).
Now they are supposed to use an earth stake or something.

If there is an earth problem in your house, your power board may not trip.

If you touch the taps (connected to water supply and earth) you may be an easier path to ground than the rest of the water supply, you will become the earth for your house, you will get shocked.

As i understand it is difficult to test for an earth that is still going to ground, but in a way other than intended. The end result is the same.

What is worse than this is if the current goes through you and then back to the electrical system.
- why - because then there is no earth fault and the rcd wont trip.

If you don't follow this then i suggest the most you should do is lick a 9volt battery to see if its charged.Apparently that will hurt you so dont really do it.

Cauterise

10th August 2007, 08:06 PM

Yep, I understand that loosing the Earth-Neutral bond bit and how it results in tinkles.

But, walk me through the scenario:

The kid has a tooth brush, let's make it electric,
the tap is turned on.
one hand on the tooth brush, or brush in their mouth,
other hand in the water...and explain how "you can find your kid dead beside the bathroom sink with the bloody toothbrush still in their hand" because of a neutral problem.

I suspect the kid would only get to level 2, and that would be with an ordinary plastic Oral B!

As for tinkles - tinkles may sometimes be a warning, but in this scenario, at its worst, the kid would still be hanging on to the tap with his/her teeth chattering. The path, for those interested, has nothing to do with the toothbrush but is a circuit from the metallic tap, through the body to earth - in this case, probably bare feet and a damp floor. Carpet might slow it down somewhat and result in the tingle.

Dirty Doogie

10th August 2007, 08:14 PM

Cauterise

10th August 2007, 08:15 PM

I was trying to think of cases involving tingles - how's this:

Electrician who worked for the Hydro Electric Commission in Tas in the '80s, walking into a substation yard was feeling the tingles in his feet (through his boots). Turned around and walked out, reported it. His supervisor thought he was skiving, so came for a look and also felt the tingle - turned out to be a fairly major fault and defective earth protection. Very lucky boys, the substation was carrying 110 000 volts (or 220 000, can't recall, but it was a main substation dealing with transmission from the Hydro dam down into Hobart).

Cauterise

10th August 2007, 08:20 PM

I've spent all afternoon reading this thread from the beginning. I'm a renovator and lay much of my own wiring but generally get a sparky to wire up fittings etc.

I've just looked at the wiring diagramme on the tas.gov document -- UM -- Surely running an earth wire to a water pipe is incredibly stupid ???!!!!???

A few houses ago (3 years ago) I found such an earth connection and as I was going to get a new box put in I got the sparky to remove the connection. He didnt seem one bit surprised that the earth was running through the water pipe.

DD

Incredibly smart - an earth bond is required on the water pipe and forms part of the earth protection (MEN system). Basically, the earth system protects you from the scenarios above - ie live tapware, sinks etc. The idea is that fault current passes to earth and trips the circuit protection. If you don't have a good protection system, then the current will pass through you to earth.

bricks

10th August 2007, 08:22 PM

Crisp.

As a master plumber, gastfitter and builder in S.A. i recieve a magazine published by the OTR called regulation roundup.

Here is a PDF file of the latest issue
http://www.technicalregulator.sa.gov.au/images/pdfs/RR19_Apr07.pdf

Look at page 4, and page 6 for the technical explaination of what can happen. Notice on page four the there doesn't even need to be an earth fault for the shock to occur, too much resistance can make it happen along with other things.

Eg you do your own conversion from one light globe to 4 or 6 downlights- the draw on the power is roughly the same but the resistance is multiplied by 6 or more due to the voltage drops and so forth ( remember im not a sparky). The DIY peanut thinks he's ok coz he's using less power but in fact he's designing a system that can easily fail in the newish ( 60's-70's)super dooper mens system of earthing.

Hope this acces to new and correct info doesn't make you over confident.
Look on page 6 as to how many people are shocked in one month by tap ware or other items connected to water supply, or roller shutters or T.V sets or what ever.

Ps : just incase your curious : if you lick a 9 volt battery- it tastes funny, dont do it.

Dirty Doogie

10th August 2007, 08:32 PM

Hi Cauterize,

Do they still earth to waterpipes on new builds?

DD

Cauterise

10th August 2007, 08:36 PM

Hi Cauterize,

Do they still earth to waterpipes on new builds?

DD

If you take a look at the link from Bricks, you'll see a fairly good diagram of a residential system. But, in short, yes, there must be a bond to the water pipe in the house/installation as well as the earth electrode. If a new installation is inspected, it is one of the first things an inspector will look for and check. Also, if an electrician makes changes to an installation, they are required to bring the installation up to current standards.

JDarvall

10th August 2007, 09:08 PM

Now you just go back and read what I wrote. Bet you can't find anywhere that I actually advised anyone that they should go ahead and break the law.. .

Nor have I directly advised anyone to break the law. But I've certainly hinted of it sure..... in exactly the same way you did when you mentioned jaywalking.............same thing.....don't remember exactly.....but you said something like.........'shyt yer I jaywalk'

Just like you, I couldn't give a rats ???? how you cross the road. The point I'm making is.........The laws position is irrelivent. Whats really important is you looked for bloody cars before you crossed.

The laws position is irrelivent (can't spell that) on electrical and plumbing work as well, because its just not enforced enough to make a difference.

Everybody knows that you won't get in strife with the law if you do it yourself. You can buy all you need to do most repair work yourself from freekin mitre 10 for christ sake. You know doubt can find step by step instructions over the internet on how to do it even. I'm not going to change a thing by reveling my thoughts on the matter here.

How are you going to stop people doing it anyway ?......by saying ' you can't do that. Its illegal'

Whilst some go -> :oo: ' oh ????, I better not do that then ! . :oo: god what would the neighbors think..:oo: ' .......:rolleyes:

I would say the vast majority have a bit of think about it........shake their heads and think .....' what a load of bullshyt'....and go ahead and do what they feel they can do anyway.

I've always had a problem solving sort of mind. I have a relatively low salary, and with the incredible cost of tradesman(sorry fellas, but its true. your a rip off, and some of you do worse a job than I would).....no law enforcement, easy access to parts.. there's just no way in the world I won't attempt what I can. And clearly I'm not alone.

bricks

10th August 2007, 10:57 PM

<TABLE class=tborder style="BORDER-TOP- 0px" cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=thead colSpan=2>10th Aug 2007 07:38 PM</TD></TR><TR title="Post 563843" vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 align=middle width=125>apricotripper</TD><TD class=alt2>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER- 1px inset; BORDER- 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

I've always had a problem solving sort of mind. I have a relatively low salary, and with the incredible cost of tradesman(sorry fellas, but its true. your a rip off, and some of you do worse a job than I would).....no law enforcement, easy access to parts.. there's just no way in the world I won't attempt what I can. And clearly I'm not alone.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

yet as we see in this thread quite clearly, some people who do their own work don't have much of an idea what they are doing at all. And are causing dangerous situations because they won't admit it or don't know how wrong they are.

As of today I have decided that no longer will I accept that home owners will do their own liscenced work, regardless of safety, code conformance and general laws in this country. If I see it i will report it- I see it all the time- and it's just dawned on me that theese things are endangering my life everytime I have to do work at one of these houses.

Between post number 176 and post number 181 I have been able to go and find relevant upto date information on electrical installations and the mens system, as i said before I'm not a sparky. I am however a tradesman this tells me a few things. As a trades man....
I know if something doesn't sound right
I know how to interpret standards a regs
I know where to go and who to ask about subjects involving current requirements.
I don't just go and pigheadedly do something because i think it's ok.

I have enough respect for the lives of others not to break the law.

Your post MR apricotripper has basically cemented my resolve for what i must do. Everytime I do a job, I submitt a COC form.
On that COC form is a section for Faults found, Everytime I do a job where i think the home owner has done some DIY work I'll write it in that section and send it off noting all possible infringments in that service. That way it will be noted and must be signed off by a liscenced trade.

When a fault is noted on a COC that fault goes on to public record, when you try to sell your house it will be noted in the incumberances section of What we call a form 1 here in S.A. ( notes boundarys, problems, easements and incumberances) The new owner will have to have all incumberances fixed within 12 moths from date of purchase, or not buy your house.

That way you DIY maniacs can kill youselves, your wives, your kids, your mother in law.. but no one else has to be messed around by your dodgy unsafe practices.

Think it's time for a collective spanking from all the tradies out there who worked hard long and for no money to be good at their job.

Obviously if you think you can do it to a standard thats better than a tradie then do it i won't be able to tell the diffence coz i won't look anyway coz im counting my money.
Because i have to pay my petrol, insurance, workcover, income protection, liscence fees, material suppliers, cover people who don't pay, by materials for the next jobs, get the van serviced, replace tools, pay for the pex Gas training, pay master plumbers association, spend and hour and a half at night doing paperwork, keep ahead of gov regs for small business.

At the end of the day I make about $1000 a week before tax and im almost always owed money. If i do a bathroom reno for $15,000 and some cheesy nob decides not to pay me, i dont make two bucks to rub together for that quarter.
$1000 bucks a week, pay tax lump sum every three months, no sickies, holidays, super, redundancy, etc,etc..... get the picture.

chrisp

11th August 2007, 12:37 AM

Dear gentle reader,

Why have I been so cocky in challenging mick101 (and tas_dean) over the scenario proposed? Because I know they can't explain it because it cannot happen without another fault being present at the same time. As much as they can claim that I don't, or couldn't, understand - I do. It is they who can't explain what is happening.:rolleyes:

It is interesting to see that they have left it to a plumber to try and explain - what a joke. (no offence Bricks, but this really isn't your playing field).

Let me explain what they can not.

Firstly, they are talking about a failure of the "neutral" but what they are trying to say is a neutral-earth bond failure. Have you noticed in older switchboards have a "neutral bar" and at one point (and one point only) the neutral is bonded to the earth (have a look next time you are near an older switchboard). This is the multiple earthed neutral (MEN) system we use in Australia. The neutral is connected to earth at each household or installation.

As part of the system, the plumbing is also bonded to the neutral. Why, because due to resistance in the neutral wiring, it is possible to develop a small potential difference between neutral and earth. This small differece can lead to unpleasant tingles if, for example, you were to touch the (earthed) body of a washing machine (connected to neutral via the electrical earth) and also touch a tap (connected to earth via the plumbing). Note, these are small potentials, a few volts - a bit like the 9V battery on the tip of your tongue - not 240V.

So, if you get tingling when touching your washing machine and a tap, it is sign that there may be a fault with the eath neutral bonding and it ought to be checked.

With the "tooth brush" scenario with a "neutral" fault- the worst that could happen is using an earthed (class 1) tooth brush, the child might experience tingling while using the earthed tooth brush while holding there hand on the tap, or under the flowing water. I have never seen a class 1 (i.e. earthed) tooth brush in my life! The tingling, in this case, while unpleasent, would not be fatal.

The only plug-in tooth brushes I've seen have been class 2 - double insulated - i.e. no earth. The tingling would not happen as there is no earth (via the tap) to neutral (via the protective earth) path. With a doulde insulated appliance, it doesn't really matter what fault happens inside the tool, there is no connection with either the active, neutral (or earth) to the outside of the appliance. Tingling might happen between the floor (assuming bare feet, wet floor, conductive floor) and the tap - again this would be unpleasant rather than fatal.

This is why mick101 can not explain how "you can find your kid dead beside the bathroom sink with the bloody toothbrush still in their hand" because of a neutral problem. It can't happen without another problem being present at the same time.

BTW Bricks you have no idea who I am, so don't be too quick to judge. I'm more than happy to explain my reasoning and logic and put it on display for public comment. All I was doing was asking mick101 to do the same.

JDarvall

11th August 2007, 08:18 AM

..... get the picture.

:D yep. your going to stop being so efen nieve expecting to get results by saying ........' its illegal '......... and your going to attempt something thats probably not going to change a thing in the long run . Your wasting your time. But good luck ! I like it when people do what they believe in.

It doesn't matter what you do , your not going to make a difference are you whilst the law isn't properally enforced (its probably unrealistic to expect it to be) AND you can buy the parts.

but , all the best........:2tsup:

Honorary Bloke

11th August 2007, 08:28 AM

Quoting Bricks: "As of today I have decided that no longer will I accept that home owners will do their own liscenced work, regardless of safety, code conformance and general laws in this country. If I see it i will report it- I see it all the time- and it's just dawned on me that theese things are endangering my life everytime I have to do work at one of these houses."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Counting on a lot of repeat customers are we? I would have thought a quiet word in the ear would be best, along with a recommendation. I hope you own your own business, because if I were your employer I might be tempted to have a quiet word in your ear. :)

Cauterise

11th August 2007, 10:41 AM

chrisp

11th August 2007, 12:33 PM

I'll back the opposing point of view - forget the toothbrush, a neutral fault condition can cause a fatality in the absence of 'another problem being present at the same time'.

Back them all you like - but explain to us why you are backing them.

Mick101 put up a scenario - he chose the tooth brush example and claimed with a neutral fault "you can find your kid dead beside the bathroom sink with the bloody toothbrush still in their hand".

If we need to "forget to toothbrush" to come up with a plausible scenario, then please explain.

All I'm asking is mick101 to back his claim by explaining how it happens, how the potentials are developed and the approximate level; and what the current path is.

I'm quite well qualified in these matters, but I don't need to hide behind my qualifications and make remarks something like "you won't understand". I'm happy to put my reasoning in my posts, if you agree with Mick101, then why don't you explain what might happen in the "toothbrush" scenario - or are you introducing another scenario where are fatality might occur?

thatirwinfella has come closest to a reasonable explanation to the scenario, but we have to assume quite a few "ifs" if we are to make a fatal current path and I question the level of the potential between the tap and an earthed toothbrush (ever seen one?) is enough to cause a fatality without another fault being present.

Redo the scenario with a (much, much more likely) double insulated toothbrush and it is an extremely remote possibility, one that is right up there with the probability of being abducted by aliens.

Cauterise

11th August 2007, 05:23 PM

MrFixIt

11th August 2007, 06:18 PM

Hi

This has and continues to be an interesting thread :)

Discussions are now getting a little out of hand - aproaching the "name calling" level. I (and I hope others) would like to see the ettiquette and manners remain positive - please :)

As of today I have decided that no longer will I accept that home owners will do their own liscenced work, regardless of safety, code conformance and general laws in this country. If I see it i will report it- I see it all the time- and it's just dawned on me that theese things are endangering my life everytime I have to do work at one of these houses.

Ok, but how will you know that the work was NOT done by a tradie? I have seen very rough jobs performed by a number of various trades, including electrical AND plumbing trades. I have not considered them to be "tradesmen".

I don't know if the regualtions have changed, but many years ago it was ok for a plumber to do gasfitting, but a gasfitter could not do plumbing? So it was safe for a plumber to have a leaking pipe and "drown" people with a VISIBLE substance, but it was not ok for a gasfitter, responsible for the prevention of the "leak" of a NON visible substance, to work with water.

As a trades man....
I know if something doesn't sound right
I know how to interpret standards a regs
I know where to go and who to ask about subjects involving current requirements.
I don't just go and pigheadedly do something because i think it's ok.

I don't think anyone here is advocating "pigheadedness" in performing electrical (or other) work.

In many (all?) of my posts in this thread I have stated that *IF* the DIY'er is comfortable with and knows what they are doing then they can do it them selves.

If they DON'T know what they are doing then I would expect them NOT to do it! There is no harm in asking what to do and / or HOW to do it. If ACCURATE advise is given and adhered to then there is still nothing wrong (other than it being illegal) for a COMPETENT DIYer from doing their own work.

The original poster (see what you started :D) asked "what am I allowed to do" ok, we have resolved that the answer is nothing! So what.

A compentent DIYer, especially one from the UK where they (generally) KNOW from experience what they are doing, can/could STILL do the work - their choice.

I have enough respect for the lives of others not to break the law.

I have enough respect for MY OWN life as well as the lives of others, that's why MY work, legal or not is equal to or BETTER than that of the tradesman whose job I am doing.

I would like to think (hope) that other DIYers on this forum do the same.

Your post MR apricotripper has basically cemented my resolve for what i must do. Everytime I do a job, I submitt a COC form.
On that COC form is a section for Faults found, Everytime I do a job where i think the home owner has done some DIY work I'll write it in that section and send it off noting all possible infringments in that service. That way it will be noted and must be signed off by a liscenced trade.

When a fault is noted on a COC that fault goes on to public record, when you try to sell your house it will be noted in the incumberances section of What we call a form 1 here in S.A. ( notes boundarys, problems, easements and incumberances) The new owner will have to have all incumberances fixed within 12 moths from date of purchase, or not buy your house.
So you could just very well corrupt the sale of a property for the poor quality work of an unknown tradesman!

That way you DIY maniacs can kill youselves, your wives, your kids, your mother in law.. but no one else has to be messed around by your dodgy unsafe practices.

Who is to say that we are DIY *maniacs*? Members of this board are sensible enough to be either capable of DOING the job or having enough sense to have the job done by a professional.

Think it's time for a collective spanking from all the tradies out there who worked hard long and for no money to be good at their job.

I think the reverse is true, it is time for the tradies to be spanked by TOO MANY mislead, misquoted ($), overcharged, missed appointment, never turned up, botched job, poor quality, ripped off (YES! RIPPED OFF) consumers.

The rates charged by trademen now (with a building boom) are excessive. Why? because they KNOW they can get it! Sure it's supply and demand - but they sure do cry poor when the circumstances are reversed.

I know of an instance where a $2000 rendering job was quoted at $5000. Another quote was sourced. The second quote was about the same but the "quoter" could not start in the required time frame. On approaching the person that provided the original quote to do the job, he NOW quoted an extra $1000 basically because he could!

Tradesmen should also have a MORAL standard.

boban

11th August 2007, 08:03 PM

Perhaps you should read a previous thread.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=14723

In this instance, reading between the lines, seems to me that you are a very balanced individual - ie you have a chip on each shoulder. You seem determined to argue your point to a standstill, possibly because you don't have a licence, have no prospect of getting one, can't legally wire anything and want to test your theoretical knowledge against that of people who have a licence, have experience and know what they're doing. If I were you I'd stick to sitting behind the computer, or whatever it is that you do and leave the nuts and bolts to others more capable than yourself.

Perhaps you should ease up on the ridicule and explain what it is you are talking about. You two guys just avoid the technical question and sling mud.

Again you are not playing the ball.

BTW chrisp is an electrical engineer. If you want to debate then do so. It seems to me that it is the last thing you want to do.
Go on, answer the question with your technical expertise without reference to Journeyman Mick's thread. I am seriously interested in the answer.

While you are at it, why don't you also answer my previous post genius.

JDarvall

11th August 2007, 08:22 PM

$1000 bucks a week, pay tax lump sum every three months, no sickies, holidays, super, redundancy, etc,etc..... get the picture.

Just re-read your post .......and I dont give a shyt ! :D .... you know why......cause I only make $550 a week, and no doubt I'd work as hard, if not more than you (and yes, I know your a builder). I work in a joinery, and I'm ????ed at the end of the day. Hands ache from shifting timber all day. cuts and splinters .......its just horrible bricks. Just horrible :C

So, bricks , your just winging to me.

Maybe you just need to get laid. a loving lady. Works for me. After a bit of nouke, alls good. Have to be better than a tooth brush.

I can understand you've got frustrations in life......but you must know that we've all got them.

So what are the odds do you think of being killed or injured , everytime you turn up at a job, from previous dodgy work ?........do you really know ?

And your chances, isn't described by just quoting how many people died during a certain period. Population is very important I'd say in statistics isn't it ? Convientiently it seems to be always discounted to make a situation look worse .

Wouldn't be surprised there's overconcern on it all anyway when somebody really finds out the true odds......(that you've probably got more chance of dying from jaywalking afterall....eh Silent :D (could be your next signature....jaywalking hippocryt (can't spell that)...that be funny. Would you do it just for me for a laugh.. go on:wink: )

Cauterise

11th August 2007, 08:46 PM

Yes, but you know I was talking about single phase and was making a point about what could be discussed and further that education was the key. It was merely an example I used to make a point. That view however might not be as convenient to your criticism however.

And just as you like being smart, is the blue phase (a bright blue) found in the company of the brown active, or is it found in the company of the white and red phases.

I think you have proved my point about people just waiting for something to jump on.

I think you should play the ball. Not that I even understand what you mean by that food chain statement.

Having read the balance of your post, it appears that we are in agreement about getting the correct information. As I've said before and you've repeated, its readily available from Standards Australia.

The funny thing is, I don't even need to do my own electrical nor do I have to pay for having someone do it.

I don't know why I even bother posting on this forum. Perhaps I'm being a big girl, but someone should just ban me and put me out of my misery. See ya.

Hey Boban, welcome back - missed your incisive views on stuff. Thought you'd thrown in the towel and left the forum - hence didn't reply.

Seems you missed a bit while you were gone, thanks for pointing out that Chrisp has a degree - As I stated, I've got one of those too. They come in handy occasionally. Don't mean squat though if you can't back it up. Fortunately, mine is of the type that Chrisp's isn't - namely, one that gives me the right to wire my own house.

As for my reply to your earlier post (see above):

I liked your bit about "bright blue", but if this is all you've got, then you're extremely lucky that you have no need to wire anything or pay anyone to wire anything on your behalf (live in a vacuum do you?)

As for knowing you were talking about single phase - no, I thought we were talking about residential/domestic installations and what you can do legally - just as many three phase out there these days. Incidentally, I raised your bit about blue neutrals as a means of trying to educate people to think about what they are doing - read the rest of my post.

As for the answer about neutrals - seems like I have to spell it out - a line side neutral fault will produce the condition in the example. Broken neutral definitely, reverse polarity probably, but likely to be detected before coming to that.

As for my crack about the food chain - sorry mate, but basically I meant that I believe there are smarter Krill out there. Wikipedia probably contains a good explanation of what Krill is.

bricks

11th August 2007, 09:23 PM

Hey boys, just like to start by saying that i don't like being moderated , it makes the threads look messy, perhaps we could just take it back a notch and continue a disscussion.

Id just like to point out a problem with the toothbrush theory which nobody has bought to the disscussion yet.

The toothbrush is irrelevant.

Fatal current can be received simply from the tapware and pipework in a house by itself. eg taps to ground. You don't need to touch a power socket to be killed by an earth fault. An example of this is here
http://www.technicalregulator.sa.gov.au/images/pdfs/RR07_Apr01.pdf
on page nine in green box

Another warning is herehttp://www.technicalregulator.sa.gov.au/images/pdfs/RR15_Apr05.pdf
on page 7

Why is it that even reletivly low voltage or what ever can kill you, its because we worker bees wear rubber soled safety boots. Theese boots provide a resistance of electricity finding ground through your feet. this means that you can cut a pipe, touch both ends, and compleate the circuit. If this happens the RCD won't trip because you havnt earthed the problem you've just become a part of the circuit.

Regardless of what anyone thinks about DIY wiring and plumbing the fact is you can be killed from your taps only, with the mens system installed you can get earth problems from too much resistance in the line, and a switch that doesnt work could be an indicator of an earth problem in the mens system.

Stating my position- I don't care if homeowners do there own work
I do care if unliscenced people carry out work for others- mates or customers
I really do care if home owners don't know what they are doing and make something dangerous.