We Need To Make A Stand

[Ruddigar]

And also if there is not life on other planets who the hell was driving that flying saucer?
funkychicken :D :D

[silentC]

The way I see it, the whole debate is pointless because what you are asking a religious person to do is to forgoe the very thing that makes them religious, which is the faith that their invisible friend does exist. And what they are asking you to do is to accept that he exists. Neither of those things is going to happen. All the debate about the truth of the bible, the age of the earth, evolution vs creationism that is used to try to win the argument would crumble away if you remove the idea of faith. Without faith, there is no longer anything to argue about.

I find it amusing that you have creationists trying to find evidence to counter evolutionist theory, Trying to use science against itself. Science would drop evolution theory like a hot potato if someone came up with something better. It still doesn't prove the existence of god.

And vice versa. Say you could prove that the bible was actually complete fiction. Do you think that would bring an end to christianity?

[Zed]

Too many greenies to hand out in this thread.

I quite like Douglas Adams take on religion Ie the bit where he indicates that without faith god is nothing, and proof belies faith thus if you get proof it negates faith and removes the need for faith therefore god cant exist and thus vanishes in a puff of logic. or some such thing...

I love it. He must a spent some time navel contemplating over that one...

all th god botherers should keep it to themselves, there'd be less war and swearing at the front door.

Anyone watch that show on SBS about the freak Mormon polygamists ? I wonder how truthful that is... surely they cant be THAT good looking, I imagine polygamy is so ugly people can get married but at least the spouse doesnt have to shag an ugly person too much due to having to spread themselves around...
see my auto signature...

[Brown Dog]

Then you are a 'weak atheist' which is more like an agnostic than a 'strong atheist'. A strong atheist denies the existence of god/s.

You can call it what ever you want. But I agree there are levels to theism and atheism. In fact Dawkins (who I agree with) suggest there are 7 levels or spectrum of possiblities

1. strong theist 100% pobability of god

2.Very high prob. but short of 100% ie " I stongly believe in God but cant be certain. I live my life on the assumption that he is there"

3. Higher than 50% but not much....technically agnostic but leaning towards theism ie "Im very uncertain but im inclined to believe in God.

4 50 50 "gods existance and non-existance are equally fesible"

5. less than 50% technically agnostic but leaning toward atheism

6. Very low probability, but short of 0% ie "God is very improbable and I live my life on the assumption that he is not"

7. Stong atheist "I know there is no God"


I would call my self a 6 leaning towards 7...so on the scale of things I wouldnt call it "weak" maybe more defacto Atheist :)


Evidence is not proof. You cannot say this is because I have evidence.

Why not, isnt that how court cases are decided every day...why cant I apply the same logic to the religion debate ?

There is evidence for god,
What evidence ?
I dispute that there is any evidence for God. Hence my atheistic stance
.

[MurrayD99]

What happens on Friday? :? :?


Friday is the day each week 'pon which the meaning of life is explored. Yer'll need a password and a creative mind.... (no, no pun; well...):2tsup:

[Gra]

A monkey and a dog arguing religion, this is a good day

[Ruddigar]

Friday is the day each week 'pon which the meaning of life is explored. Yer'll need a password and a creative mind.... (no, no pun; well...):2tsup:
Sounds to me like a bunch of idiots with too much time on their hands.





:p

[MurrayD99]

Sounds to me like a bunch of idiots with too much time on their hands.





:p


Freaks, actually. Freaks. That is what some say.:C It's hurtful.

[bitingmidge]

There is evidence for god,
What evidence ?
I dispute that there is any evidence for God. Hence my atheistic stance
I once heard James Morrison (yes, the trumpet player) and well known explainer of things, say that he has a feeling that the more difficult things are to understand the more important they are. He used the examples of (in increasing degrees of perplexity), electricity, love, God.

Perhaps he had a point.

On the other had Douglas Adams had another take:


There is a theory which states that if anyone discovers just exactly what the universe is for and why we are here, that it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. Then there is a theory which states that this has already happened.

or

Now it is such a bizarrely improbably coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful [the Babel fish] could have evolved by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.
The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED"
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.


He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife.

Hmmm...

P (resorting to quoting others)
:p :p

[silentC]

You can call it what ever you want
They are not my terms.


Why not, isnt that how court cases are decided every day...why cant I apply the same logic to the religion debate ?
Well, if evidence was proof, then all court cases would get a guilty verdict, would they not?


I dispute that there is any evidence for God.
The fact that a very, very large number of people believe in him. Something makes them feel that way. There are documents saying that he exists. There are events which people say are evidence. Like I say, I am more in favour of the negative side.

If there is no evidence, then why are you not a 7?

[Ruddigar]

He used the examples of (in increasing degrees of perplexity), electricity, love, God.
James Morrison never had to decide which table saw to buy under $2,000 did he......

[Brown Dog]

'Snot the debate that's against the rules. It's the subject matter that ruffles a few feathers.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=11512



Thanks for that Ruddigar :).
... is the boss and he is right that there are problably better places to discuss these things. And of course I will cease and desist if my posts are not wanted or contributing in anyway. I guess it is inevitable that dicussions on this topic so often lead to heads becoming hot :rolleyes: . I just think it is a sad that a theist and an atheist cant have a pleasant, freindly and interesting debate about their beliefs( by that I dont mean just this forum but in general)

cheers
BD:2tsup:

[Andy Mac]

A truly wonderous discussion is taking place here, and I'm starting to get the point...
This you say, is indeed god-like, therefore there is a God?

[Gra]

A truly wonderous discussion is taking place here, and I'm starting to get the point...
This you say, is indeed god-like, therefore there is a God?

All hail the great and hairy god

[MurrayD99]

Does have a personalised plate then?

[Ruddigar]

A X E - M A N

[Gra]

Axe-man

You would want to spell that one correct, or you may end up in a Seinfeld episode

[Cliff Rogers]

Thanks for that Ruddigar :). ....
Ignore him, he is a stirrer. :D


....This you say, is indeed god-like, ...
Picture the biggest.... ugliest... hairiest.... Kindergarten teacher you could ever imagine. :D

[Gra]

Picture the biggest.... ugliest... hairiest.... Kindergarten teacher you could ever imagine. :D

So you have met my wife then:U:U

[Ruddigar]

Picture the biggest.... ugliest... hairiest.... Kindergarten teacher you could ever imagine. :D
is really Mrs Godfrey!? :oo:

[Brown Dog]

Well, if evidence was proof, then all court cases would get a guilty verdict, would they not?

what does beyond reasonable doubt refer to then ?
Cases are decided on probability ie balance of evidence all the time.


The fact that a very, very large number of people believe in him.
Something makes them feel that way

Do you honestly consider belief in something to be evidence of existance...pa lease:rolleyes: . Extending that logic to my case " if i believe god doesnt exist therefore he musnt" case closed...sounds silly doesnt it


Does that mean Santa really did exist when I was a kid ? If so what happened to him.:D


There are documents saying that he exists.

In the case of texts documenting the life of Jesus. Natural history or evidence based history as shown that they are historically dubious

There are events which people say are evidence.
Again they believe... Scientifically miracles dont constitute evidence because they can also have a more probable natural explanation

Like I say, I am more in favour of the negative side.

If there is no evidence, then why are you not a 7?

But there is evidence...science is full of evidence...addmitedly science doesnt have all the answers yet , so i think it is more than resonable to delay my 100% conviction that there is no God

[Brown Dog]

A truly wonderous discussion is taking place here, and I'm starting to get the point...
This you say, is indeed god-like, therefore there is a God?


Ahhh..... but did he create the universe ? :D

[Gra]

Does that mean Santa really did exist when I was a kid ? If so what happened to him.:D


As per Douglas Adams, he disappeared in a puff of logic

[silentC]

what does beyond reasonable doubt refer to then
It refers to the fact that, despite the evidence, there is enough doubt to find the defendent not guilty. If having evidence of something was proof, then there would be no need for reasonable doubt.


But there is evidence...science is full of evidence...addmitedly science doesnt have all the answers yet , so i think it is more than resonable to delay my 100% conviction that there is no God

You just said there isn't. Do make up your mind.

Anyway, I'm not arguing whether there is a god or not, I'm arguing that to adopt an absolute position on something without proof one way or the other is illogical. That's all I said, all this other stuff is just side tracking.

[Cliff Rogers]

.... I'm not arguing whether there is a god or not, I'm arguing that to adopt an absolute position on something without proof one way or the other is illogical. .....
Is that an argument or a contradiction?

[echnidna]

yes

[Grunt]

No it's not.

[Gra]

No it's not.

Oh yes it is

$5 for five more minutes

[Brown Dog]

It refers to the fact that, despite the evidence, there is enough doubt to find the defendent not guilty. If having evidence of something was proof, then there would be no need for reasonable doubt.


I though "beyond resonable doubt" refered to a level of proof that must be met based on the balance of the evidence.

to try yo illustrate my logic.

if a court charges God with "Existing with intent to create the universe" it is up to the prosecution to provide evidence that he does exist beyond a resonable doubt. I think the defences case that he "doesnt exist" is more valid based on the balance of evidence. There for he would be found not guilty of "existing and creating the universe"




You just said there isn't. Do make up your mind.

where did I say there is no evidence ? Maybe I didnt make myself clear...If I did Im sorry. So to make it clear I will sumarise

"I believe the probablity of the existence of a creationist god to be extremely low. I only conceed the very small possibilty there maybe a god because there there is no conclusive proof that he doesnt. How can one prove or disproove such a thing that is the nature of God. However I believe based on scientific evidence that we are here as a direct result of evolution. Evolution being the evidence I base my belief that it is most probable that there is no God."




Anyway, I'm not arguing whether there is a god or not,

Yes you were I asked for evidence and you gave it. That constiutes at least a debate if not an argument:wink: . To support your position as an Agnostic you must argue the case for god as much as you argue the case against(that sounds illogical to me). But like me you appear to be on the Athiest side of the fence...just not as far :)



I'm arguing that to adopt an absolute position on something without proof one way or the other is illogical.

Im saying you dont need proof....because such I thing I think can never be proven one way or the other. But evidence strongly sides with the case against.

cheers
BD:2tsup:


.

[pedro the swift]

Gentlemen and Ladies,
We seem to have strayed from the post subject somewhat, well, a great deal actually.
I will be making a stand!!!
I need to get some suitable pieces of timber to make a stand for a six foot fish tank.

[Gra]

If there is a creationalist God, Who created him?

[Gra]

Gentlemen and Ladies,
We seem to have strayed from the post subject somewhat, well, a great deal actually.
I will be making a stand!!!
I need to get some suitable pieces of timber to make a stand for a six foot fish tank.

Will it contain babelfish?

[Gingermick]

Do you think this is what funky chicken had in mind? Was he just fishing for a really bloomin long thread?
Maybe he/she was only joking and fooled everyone:B

[Wongo]

If there is a creationalist God, Who created him?

Moses?

[Gra]

Gentlemen and Ladies,
We seem to have strayed from the post subject somewhat, well, a great deal actually.
I will be making a stand!!!
I need to get some suitable pieces of timber to make a stand for a six foot fish tank.

Maybe you can put yours next to wongos and have a pair.


Do you think this is what funky chicken had in mind? Was he just fishing for a really bloomin long thread?
Maybe he/she was only joking and fooled everyone:B

Whatever his intention I can pretty much guarantee he wasn't what happened here, you couldn't plan this

[silentC]

You said:

I dispute that there is any evidence for God.
Then I said:

If there is no evidence, then why are you not a 7?
Then you said:

But there is evidence...
So, yes I am confused.

On the evidence thing, it's really very simple. Evidence consists of facts that may lead you to believe something to be true. It is not proof in and of itself. A fact might be that I found you with a knife in your hand that has the blood of a victim on it. This is evidence that you stabbed the victim but not proof. It goes to court, and the jury decides after all the evidence has been presented whether or not there is reasonable doubt that it was you who did it. Even that is not proof.

My point was that an atheist has no more proof of the non-existence of god than a theist has of his existence. You may have evidence that you consider satisfactory to your mind, but it is not proof. In fact, as has been pointed out, I don't think you can prove that god does not exist. So how can a logical thinking person rule it out? The best you can say is that it seems to you on the balance of probability that the existence of a god is unlikely. You cannot say he does not exist. Unless you are an atheist. And that is an illogical position. Not saying it's wrong, immoral, bad, stupid - just not logical.


such I thing I think can never be proven one way or the other
Existence of god can be proven, like the existence of life on other planets. All he needs to do is to appear. That would prove it. You can't prove that he doesn't exist.

[Brown Dog]

I quite like Douglas Adams take on religion Ie the bit where he indicates that without faith god is nothing, and proof belies faith thus if you get proof it negates faith and removes the need for faith therefore god cant exist and thus vanishes in a puff of logic. or some such thing...

I love it. He must a spent some time navel contemplating over that one...

.
:D

Your are in esteemed company then Zed. Richard Dawkins,who makes a living from debunking religion, cause's theoligists to poop their pants when they have to debate him and has and has provided some of the arguments that I have no doubt butchered, blundering my way trying to make a point, loves to quote Douglas Adams


cheers
BD:2tsup:

[Bleedin Thumb]

I used to be a devout atheist but all this theological discussion is causing me to have doubts......................


I'm starting to question my beliefs.......


What...what if there really is a god?:C


No, no I must be strong...... mustn't have faith!

[bitingmidge]

I'm stunned that after all these pages and posts, no-one has yet responded to the agnostic dyslexic insomniac's quest.

He stays up all night wondering if there really is a Dog!


Where is Grunt when I need him?


P
:D

[Brown Dog]

You said:

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100&#37;" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER- 1px inset; BORDER- 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">I dispute that there is any evidence for God. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Then I said:

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER- 1px inset; BORDER- 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">If there is no evidence, then why are you not a 7? </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Then you said:

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER- 1px inset; BORDER- 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">But there is evidence... </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

okay I did say that :D but what I was trying to say and when put into proper context was there is no evidence for God only against. Hope this dispells any confussion.


It is not proof in and of itself



On the evidence thing, it's really very simple. Evidence consists of facts that may lead you to believe something to be true. It is not proof in and of itself


I agree, that is why I said I have to conceed the very small possibility of a God.



My point was that an atheist has no more proof of the non-existence of god than a theist has of his existence

My point was to stongly support a conclusion you only need more convincing evidence than the other side.



You may have evidence that you consider satisfactory to your mind, but it is not proof.

never said it was



So how can a logical thinking person rule it out? The best you can say is that it seems to you on the balance of probability that the existence of a god is unlikely. You cannot say he does not exist. Unless you are an atheist. And that is an illogical position.


I havent ruled it out. However only due to the fact that I cant prove non-exsitense. Proportionly I consider that fact to be irrelevent/insignificant when forming a phylosiphy on life.



You cannot say he does not exist. Unless you are an atheist. And that is an illogical position.


that statement only deals with absolutes ie. absolute Theism, Agnostism and Atheism. I have already stated that I dont consider atheism to be absolute...there is a spectrum. But if you want to deal with absolutes, that must mean you equally believe in the existance of God and the non exsitance...to me, with available evidence that is illogical.


cheers
BD:2tsup:

[namtrak]

I think this thread has run it's course and should come to a closure with the following well balanced and considered sentiment.

There is no god, or spirits, or afterlife it is all nonsense - end of story. :rolleyes:

[Gingermick]

Existence of god can be proven,

The existence or otherwise of God is very easily proven. Just top yourself and then you will know. Of course the knowledge will be useless, particularly if god doesn't exist

[Grunt]

Where is Grunt when I need him?


Right here Midgee.

[Grunt]

On Douglas Adams and God.

There are quite a number of good quotes from the HHGTTG Trilogy, (Yeah, I know there were 5 books).


and more controversial than Oolon Colluphid's trilogy of philosophical blockbusters Where God Went Wrong, Some More of God's Greatest Mistakes and Who is this God Person Anyway?


I'm gonna pray, man! Know any good religions?

- Zaphod Beeblebrox, "Hitchikers Guide"


In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.

[Rocker]

We have got a bit side-tracked here by people who want to be the first to score 10,000 posts on the Forum. This thread is not about the existence of God, but about FC's allegation that women are getting depressed, anorexic, and even suicidal, because, he says, the media tell us that pre-marital sex and abortion are OK. Surely, at least 50&#37; of the people who engage in pre-marital sex, leaving aside, for the moment, people like Elton John and Martina Navratilova, are women; and 100% of those who have abortions are also women. So, if these women are doing what they want to do, and the media are re-assuring them that it is OK, why would they be depressed, anorexic, or suicidal? Could it be that FC disapproves of pre-marital sex and abortion, and wants women who engage in such activities to be as miserable as possible? He probably doesn't even approve of Elton getting married either; some people are very hard to please.

Rocker

[Doctor Phil]

He stays up all night wondering if there really is a Dog!



Well hello people, of course there is a Dog, and if you look real close like, and pay attention to the speeling, you will notice if you spell DOG backwards, you get GOD. :o

So to spell it out for all you fine folk, if you speel DOG backwards, you get GOD.

I hope you all learn something from this.

[craigb]

Why hasn't this thread been deleted yet? :?

[ozwinner]

Why hasn't this thread been deleted yet? :?

Cause everyone needs a good laugh once in a while, besides, its a full moon.

Al :)

[echnidna]

Dunno bout anyone else but to plagiarise Cliffy
Who gives a rats about 10,000 posts

Come to think about it,
Who gives a rats about this inane thread anyway

[bitingmidge]

Why hasn't this thread been deleted yet? :?

Because there is a God!!

P
:D :D :D

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

*poof*



(How does logic sound when it goes up in a puff? :~)

[Master Splinter]

Well, the problem with believing in god (on the theory that 'since so many people do believe, there must be something to it') is....which one?

Are we to stick with one of the Abrahamic deities or can we go for one of the more exotic ones with blue skin or inner thetans or....mmmm...(dons pirate costume) rich pasta sauce (is eating your deity good manners?)

Keep in mind that the majority of religions state that unless you believe in 'their' very specific variety of invisible friend...then you are going to hell/di yu/naraka/xibalba/jahannam (or whatever.)

Make your choice wisely...or you're gunna burn/freeze/wander eternally/have a bad day at the office (Buddhism is soooooo slack at this punishment thing).

From the CIA World Factbook, the world is roughly...

Roman Catholics 17.33%, Protestants 5.8%, Orthodox 3.42%, Anglicans 1.23%, Muslims 20.12%, Hindus 13.34%, Buddhists 5.89%, Sikhs 0.39%, Jews 0.23%, other religions 12.61%, non-religious 12.03%, atheists 2.36%

Happily, Australia is about 19% 'no religion'.

But personally, I'm backing FSM because of the beer volcano and the stripper factory in heaven.

[Master Splinter]

...getting back to the topic of the original thread...

Can someone give me the names and phone numbers of all those shameful women who indulge in sex without marriage, thanks?...its been a while...

[Gra]

There is no god, or spirits, or afterlife it is all nonsense - end of story. :rolleyes:

There is spirits, just had a nice nip of chivas regal


Because there is a God!!

And he owns an axe:U


*poof*

wrong thread, Allan came out of the closet in another thread

[Honorary Bloke]

Good Lord! (You'll pardon the expression.) I go to have my nightly lie down and awake to find the Great Theological Debate has broken out. :D

Everyone got their tips in for this weekend? :)

[Grunt]

Didn't God play for Geelong?

[Honorary Bloke]

Didn't God play for Geelong?

Well, this year, at least! :D :rolleyes:

[lesmeyer]

Didn't God play for Geelong?
Was that Sammy??:D
Les

[Grunt]

No Gary Ablett Snr.

YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IQ6O755AAI)


Was that Sammy??:D

Sammy just thinks he is.

[ubeaut]

For He so loved the Forums that looked out upon this Thread and pondered the good and the bad of it as well as the fact that the bulk of the thread was centered around the signature of a Funkychook.

Do they not know that around here God, is known as Neil (the benevolent and wise):cool2: and His little band of Demi Gods are known to all as.... (the enforcer), Ozwinner (the berserker), Groggy (the mediator), Wood Butcher (the resourceful) and Scooter (the level headed) and His one really hot Funky Chick Goddess Rufflyrustic (the Killer Queen).

He shook his head and raised his mighty right hand saying "Holy crap.... Me doest think it is time for a good smiting."

With a flick if His wrist His powerful yet just and loving right hand pointed to the enter button, then with a clap of thunder and a flash of light He smote the thread and put it to rest for ever, lest the nonsense overcome all.

:closed1:

Then He quietly disappeared into the night.
:blowup: