Which way would you install the C-columns in a new shed

[FlyingDuck]

I am having problems with the builder of a new shed I am having constructed in Brisbane. The size is 21 m x 9 m x 3.6 m, and it has seven 3 m bays made from C-sections.

The builder wants to install the C-sections so that when you are looking into the shed, the C-sections are facing with the open side looking towards you. I would have thought that for aesthetic reasons you would naturally want the best looking view as you look towards the inside, which would be the flat face of the C-sections.

Apparently his only reason for building it what I consider backwards is beause this is the way he always builds them and is too stubborn to do it as I want.

He managed to put up three ribs the way I did not want before we had had an argument over this, resulting in him spitting the dummy and walking off the job.

Photo 1 is how you would see the columns when looking from the roller doors towards inside the shed, with the open end of the C-sections looking at you. Photo 2 is looking from the rear of the shed towards the front, with the flat face of the columns.

Can I have some opinion, from a purely aesthetic point of view, of how you would have the columns facing when looking towards the inside of the shed - with the flat face or the open face looking towards you?

[glock40sw]

G'day.
I built my 15x7x3 with the "C" open side facing to the back of the shed (away from the open gable end when looking in from the roller doors).
IOW...the same as you want to do it.

The Ranbuild bloke that I bought from said that this is the correct way to do it.

[journeyman Mick]

Trouble is, if they're mounted on cast in brackets or plates it might throw things out somewhat if they're turned around. Can't see that it's really important one way or another, it's a bloody shed!

Mick

[pawnhead]

If you've got your own ideas of how to build a shed, then you should have told him before he started. I can't say that I blame him walking off. If he's already put three frames up and you want him to pull them down and start again for no good reason, then he probably sees you as a pain in the rear who's going to give him problems right through the job.

It's a shed. What's the difference which way they face?

A lot of builders find that there's no pleasing some people.

[Dean]

Just line the shed walls with ply when its done and you wont even see much of the columns :2tsup:

[Burnsy]

You have a 21 metre long shed and you are worried about the way the C sections face:oo: I will swap you for my 9 metre long one that is loose brickwork covered in mud wasp nests:p

In all seriousness, once you have filled it with machinery and tools, who actually walks into a shed and looks at the shed. You walk in, go "holy crap this is a big shed, wish mine was like this", then proceed to drool over all the tools and machinery.

Just my 2 cents worth:rolleyes:

[journeyman Mick]

......................A lot of builders find that there's no pleasing some people.


Been there done that too huh?:roll:

Mick

[FlyingDuck]

Yeah, well I might be a pain in the butt to some, but I have $40,000 reasons to be so. I have to live with it for the next 20 or 30 years, so I want to get it right now the way I want - is that a crime. Unfortunately many Aussie tradesman act like big girls and get upset over nothing.

Yes, reasons for wanting them facing the way I do are mainly aesthetic and it probably wouldn't matter to most, but after 10 years as a cabinet maker you tend to be a bit pedantic about the little touches that make all the difference. And I'm going to have conduits and switches and stuff running inside the columns, so wouldn't it make sense to try and hide this sort of stuff as much as you can.

And its not "just a shed" for me, its the second biggest purchase I've ever made in my life, and something I've been saving towards for the last 10 years or so.

As far as telling him what I want before I build, I have an existing smaller shed on my property built by the same company with the columns the way I like, and before I signed up I said I want the new one in the same exact style. There are also two pictures of the inside of their sheds on their brochure, both having the columns facing the way I want. So how was I to know that he would start building it the other way? I mean, am I supposed to sit down with him before hand and tell him which way I want every piece of material to go?

[bitingmidge]

I hope you never have to turn around in the shed and see them from the other way!!

Sorry, but there are some things that make a difference aesthetically and some that don't. If they offend you so much, why not cover them?

Of course if that's what you have specified before the commencement of construction, that's another thing. I suspect that the cleats on the girts and purlins and the column hold-downs are not symmetrical, and that flipping them over will take a bit of effort. If you haven't specified it that way, have you offered to pay the builder for the change, after all he's got a day's worth of work to change it round?

I've often been in a position to have to explain to builders that I want something done in a particular way, usually the way I'd drawn it in the first place. Mostly, despite the odd dummy spit, it gets done without real drama.

I suspect the builder figures if you're giving him curry over the way the columns face for crying out loud, you might get hard to deal with when you discover his flashing is .005 mm out of level over the door!

My advice FWIW: if you don't have a reason other than "I don't want to see the inside of the C's from the door, then let it go through to the keeper, buy the builder a slab by way of a token apology, and get your shed finished!!

Cheers,

P
:cool: :cool:

[bfx]

Ducky,

I have a couple of shed of similar size on my property. Both have RHS for the ribs so this wasn't an issue but the horizontal beams are c-section and the builder positioned these so the flat side is the most visible. ie The lower beams are flat side up and the higher ones are flat side down. He pointed this out to me and said most of his customers preferred it this way.

IOW some builders go out of their to please the customer. He's now completed four jobs for me and been recommended for other jobs in the area.

If your builder can't come up with a reason better than "that's how I have always done it" then he is only interested in pleasing himself. If the orientation impacts the position of brackets etc then he should have pointed that out.

As to covering it up by lining the shed, one of my sheds is insulated and lined but the ribs are still exposed.

It will probably be a very good shed either way. It's just a shame the c-sections will remind you that builders can also be pains in the rear.

Bill

[echnidna]

He managed to put up three ribs the way I did not want before we had had an argument over this, resulting in him spitting the dummy and walking off the job.


if you are really lucky he might come back and finish the job

[Barry_White]

When I was working for a shed company we always designed and built the shed with the columns open side facing the the rear of the shed. We always did a slab or pier layout plan to reflect this for the hold down bolts.

This was only asthetic and does not affect the performance of the shed.

As Mick said if it has already been set out that way the positioning of the hold down bolts may prevent it from being turned around. If they were drilled in anchors it wouldn't have mattered.

[Barry_White]

Ducky,

the horizontal beams are c-section and the builder positioned these so the flat side is the most visible. ie the higher ones are flat side down. He pointed this out to me and said most of his customers preferred it this way.


Bill

Great place for the rats to live and lets them run around the shed without being seen.

[pawnhead]

The whole point is that it doesn't matter structurally which way they go, and I doubt very much that it's specified on any drawings, so if you're not happy with the way they are, and you didn't tell the builder which way you wanted them before he started, then it's your problem.

If you want them turned around you should offer to pay him extra to pull them down an re-erect them. He doesn't care how much the shed is costing you. All he cares about is being treated fairly, and getting paid for the work that he's contracted to do, without having to throw in extras for free.

Of course if it's you that bears the cost of the extra days work, then I'll wager that the way the columns face isn't such a big deal after all. ;)

[Jacksin]

My Olympic garage, supplied in kit form that I erected following their manual had all columns and portal C-section trusses flat faces facing the front entrance. The front 2 columns were reversed (flat side to the rear) which had the 'opening' covered by the front corner cappings.

I think your beef is certainly legitimate and is with the company who haven't passed your wishes on to the erector and they are liable for any cost increase (provided you have your requests in writing). Lets face it, its your money and if the erector wants to act like a prima-donna and get the sulks, tell him to bugger off and ask for another erector who is not so childish.

[DJ’s Timber]

Mines got 2 one way and the other 2 the other way, because that's the way I did it and how I wanted it. Nothing to do with looks or support

[echnidna]

d'ya really think another erector will take over the job?

wishful thinking

[Tools]

Why not leave them as they are and have some flashing folded up to cover the open side once you have put your conduits in.

Tools

[pawnhead]

I think your beef is certainly legitimate and is with the company who haven't passed your wishes on to the erector and they are liable for any cost increase (provided you have your requests in writing). Lets face it, its your money and if the erector wants to act like a prima-donna and get the sulks, tell him to bugger off and ask for another erector who is not so childish.Well then he has to have documented proof of which way the columns were supposed to go. I doubt that it would be on the drawings. From what I gather, all he's got is a verbal argument after three of the frames had already been stood up. It's easy to say it's being childish wanting to be payed for any extra work that's involved in satisfying a fussy client. Personally I think it's childish being so fussy in the first place.
I'm sure he wouldn't be so fussy if he had to pay to have the frames turned around, but he's got no problems in having the builder waste an extra day if he doesn't have to pay for it.

[MrFixIt]

Hi

It's YOUR MONEY, YOUR SHED, you have it built they way YOU WANT - it's THAT simple.

If however there are difficulties in building it the way you want then YOU may have to pay extra. eg If the erector was not told beforehand how the shed should have been erected, then you may need to pay for dismantle and reassembly.

If for some reason the supports don't allow the construction the other way around then you may have to pay or just accept it.

If there is no reason WHY it can't be done the way YOU want, then the person doing the job HAS NO CHOICE to DO IT the way YOU want.

Whether or not he "always builds them THAT way" is NOT the point he is building it FOR YOU, NOT HIMSELF so "YOU RULE". If he doesn't like it he doesn't get paid SIMPLE!

[echnidna]

The subby had already started building the shed the normal way.
then the problem arose. Subbies get paid for the job, not by the hour

So you want SPECIAL - YOU PAY FOR IT !!!!!!

Stubborn means it'll take a looonnnggg time for it to be built!!!!

[bitingmidge]

So how was I to know that he would start building it the other way? I mean, am I supposed to sit down with him before hand and tell him which way I want every piece of material to go?

Yes.

P
:rolleyes:

[les88]

but after 10 years as a cabinet maker you tend to be a bit pedantic about the little touches that make all the difference.

You should have asked the installers for a look at their plans before they started. If I was them I wouldn't be coming back.
les

[Pricey]

I think the bloke who is builder needs a refocus. If you've asked for it to be the same as your other one, and their brochures show them that way then you're within your rights to ask him to erect what you paid for.
I don't see why you should have to put up with your shed not being constructed as represented by the company. Your builder should be looking to satisfy his customers.
His "small thing" of facing them towards the back is poor workmanship.
I have no doubt that 95% of people on this forum would choose to have them installed the way your asking for them to be installed.
Funnily enough i bet 95% of people would question the reasoning of the c channel being installed the other way.

[Pricey]

d'ya really think another erector will take over the job?

wishful thinking
Why not? They would probably agree that they are not installed properly or as should be reasonably expected.:2tsup:

[silentC]

Unfortunately many Aussie tradesman act like big girls and get upset over nothing.
That is an absolute classic! Oh the irony!!

I think mine face towards the door. I walk past them every day but I always seem to be thinking about something more trivial than which way the columns face...

[journeyman Mick]

If you're that worried about it and are convinced that you're right, well, put your money where your mouth is. Contact the supplier and tell them you believe they are in breach of contract because they are not constructing the shed as agreed. Contact the QBSA, tell them and then toddle off to court, after all there's a few blokes here who are backing you up.

If it's not documented in the plans or attached notes or you haven't got a written confirmation of the detail you wanted you have absolutely no chance of getting it redone for free. But if course, if it's that important to you you'll end up paying to get it redone regardless because there's just no way you're going to live with it is there?

Don't take my word for it, or anyone else here, go and talk to the QBSA or see the builder in court.

Mick

[silentC]

I've just read through this thing again. I just can't believe that there are people who actually would care which way they're installed, at least not to the point that they would want to pull it down and start again. The really scary thing is that there's every chance a court might actually agree with him.

So will you walk backwards when you are leaving the shed? I think it's probably the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

[journeyman Mick]

.............The really scary thing is that there's every chance a court might actually agree with him...............

I seriously doubt it. I've managed to stay away from the whole messy litigious thing but unless it's in ther contract documentation then it doesn't really stand a chance. It would go before a building tribunal if I'm not mistaken and they do actually understand how the whole building contract process is meant to run.

Mick

[boban]

but after 10 years as a cabinet maker you tend to be a bit pedantic about the little touches that make all the difference.

Well seeing that my earlier responses where deleted from this thread due to me questioning the honesty of a particular individual based on my personal experience with them, perhaps I should just use his own words and let you decide whether it was warranted.

On 26 June 2006 FlyingDuck said this:


I don't have enough experience with woodworking machinery just to be able to walk into a shop and have a brief play with the handles etc to know if it is any good, and besides, I have to buy this gear over the internet while still living in Hong Kong, so don't have the opportunity.This you can find here http://www.woodworkforums.com/showpost.php?p=342567&postcount=3

and then there was this


I have not used 3 PH machinery beforehttp://www.woodworkforums.com/showpost.php?p=322020&postcount=1

and this


I can't do it with my Triton, as it is too wide.

Having not used a bandsaw before, why can't you just use rip fence supplied with the machine, as you would on a tablesaw? http://www.woodworkforums.com/showpost.php?p=194556&postcount=1

I always knew the Triton was the choice of experienced pedantic cabinetmakers.

[Burnsy]

Well seeing that my earlier responses where deleted from this thread due to me questioning the honesty of a particular individual based on my personal experience with them, perhaps I should just use his own words and let you decide whether it was warranted.

On 26 June 2006 FlyingDuck said this:

This you can find here http://www.woodworkforums.com/showpost.php?p=342567&postcount=3

and then there was this



http://www.woodworkforums.com/showpost.php?p=322020&postcount=1

Gee, seems to add up:rolleyes:

As I said before no-one looks that closely at a shed, as long as it is big clean and sealed from the elements it's all good. It's what you do inside it that counts:cool: , got nothing to do with the shed itself or what tools you put in it (but they are nice to look at too:D ).

[boban]

So if you have any doubts about Flying Ducks honesty then I think should settle things for you.


This might be a pretty obvious question to most of you, but I have only been woodworking with my Triton for a couple of years and now want to expand and buy some more machinery.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/showpost.php?p=172392&postcount=1

As I said in the deleted posts, I can only imagine the manner in which FlyingDuck dealt with this poor builder.

I will let this go now and trust this wont be deleted as there are for the most part, no personal opinions expressed here, only words FlyingDuck has chosen to post.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

If I didn't like the look of the C-channels and was planning to rout my cabling/ducting/airlines through 'em anyway, one of the first "customisations" to the shed I'd be looking at doing is installing access/cover plates over the open sections of channel, to limit dust buildup. (My shed's the gantry type and every time a truck rumbles by there's a wee snowstorm of falling particles. Not really good for either my health or freshly spray-finished surfaces... :()

Then, if I didn't find the appearance aesthetically pleasing it'd be my own damned fault for doing a bodgy job! :D

[echnidna]

Well seeing that my earlier responses where deleted from this thread due to me questioning the honesty of a particular individual based on my personal experience with them, perhaps I should just use his own words and let you decide whether it was warranted.

On 26 June 2006 FlyingDuck said this:

This you can find here http://www.woodworkforums.com/showpost.php?p=342567&postcount=3

and then there was this

http://www.woodworkforums.com/showpost.php?p=322020&postcount=1

and this

http://www.woodworkforums.com/showpost.php?p=194556&postcount=1

I always knew the Triton was the choice of experienced pedantic cabinetmakers.


Well I was surprised to see the post before it was deleted. :)

But as I knew you are a Barrister I concluded you wouldn't make a claim like that unless you could prove it. So I saw absolutely nothing wrong with the post...... but I'm not a mod .... thankfully

[TEEJAY]

If I didn't like the look of the C-channels and was planning to rout my cabling/ducting/airlines through 'em anyway, one of the first "customisations" to the shed I'd be looking at doing is installing access/cover plates over the open sections of channel, to limit dust buildup. (My shed's the gantry type and every time a truck rumbles by there's a wee snowstorm of falling particles. Not really good for either my health or freshly spray-finished surfaces... :()

Then, if I didn't find the appearance aesthetically pleasing it'd be my own damned fault for doing a bodgy job! :D

Sheds made out of C section are just so . . . .

Well I think this guy has a good reason :D

[bitingmidge]

but after 10 years as a cabinet maker you tend to be a bit pedantic about the little touches that make all the difference.
FD didn't say he was a cabinet maker, he just said that you get pedantic after ten years of being one!

Cheers,

P (You get a lot more pedantic after thirty years of being an architect! :D )
:D

[TEEJAY]

FD didn't say he was a cabinet maker, he just said that you get pedantic after ten years of being one!

Cheers,

P (You get a lot more pedantic after thirty years of being an architect! :D )
:D


Sounds like an architect trying to be a lawyer to me :D

[TEEJAY]

How would you say Flying Duck if you were dislexic :D

[boban]

I wouldn't have even bothered if this guy only forget to remember which story to tell.

I could start an interesting thread, but somehow I don't think it would last too long. Some people.... :((

[Jacksin]

Flying duck, was there a display shed and if so which way were the columns facing?

Like others have said, IF you don't have proof (documentation) of what you wanted then you will pay dearly for alterations. From personal experience I have found subbies erecting these things are not getting much out of it and stack a hissy fit when asked to do ANY extras.

[pawnhead]

Sheds made out of C section are just so . . . .

Well I think this guy has a good reason :D
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=51676What happened to that. :oo:
It's not even loaded up.

[Barry_White]

What happened to that. :oo:
It's not even loaded up.

I've seen a few sheds blown down like that without the sheeting on them. There is enough surface area to catch the wind from just the "C" sections.

It usually happens when the erector puts all the bays up and hasn't installed the diagonal bracing after he has erected the first two portal frames.

[boban]

I think it's a bit like a domino effect, one goes down and the rest being connected by the top hats or battens can't help but follow.

Barry's spot on, the bracing would have been lacking. I had used the top hats as bracing on almost every column until the permanent bracing was on.

Edit: just had a look at the first pic posted and that shows the temporary bracing. Teejay do you know if it was in place when the second pic was taken.

[TEEJAY]

I have never seen such a huge spanning shed made from C section bolted back to back.

I am away out west next few days gathering some outback timber - redgum, mulga see if I can identify some gidgee :D

When I get back to office on Wednesday I will post a few more pics of the shed - looked to be simply a horendous design that was even incapable of holding itself up.

[Terrian]

the opening of the 'C' facing rear of shed looks better, though I wish I had the opening facing the front of the shed for the end frame, oh well, there is always the next shed :-)

[Ozartisan]

I am surprised a shed of that size is built with open "C" section.
Mine is same size (Totalspan shed) and all (with exception of end frame which gains some strength from the cladding) are BOXED "C" section.
Kinda puts paid to the discussion of which way to face the open side!!
Didn't cost me $40,000 either!
I guess I would like to see open sides facing the "back" - but what the heck - I want people to appreciate what is being created IN the shed!
Am going through major building project building the Retreat at present - treat the builder as a partner - discussing options, problem solving together & creating workable solutions.
I can tend to be a bit "pedantic" at times - I tend to not always want the same as everyone else - but value the experience & input from my builder in rationalising some of my ideas.
Will put up some pics when the Retreat is completed - hopefully by this years end!

[Wild Dingo]

ITS A FLAMIN SHED!!! :roll:

Geez fellas... it doesnt matter if its 21mtrs or 100mtrs ITS A FLAMIN SHED!!... for gods sake who the bloody blue blazes is gonna even glance at the sodding uprights once its done clad powered up and machines in wood bein worked sawdust and chips everywhere? NO ONE SINGLE PERSON THAT WALKS THROUGH THE DOOR!!... not even the flamin duck! :~

Give it a month an even the owner wont be even glancing at the uprights or anything else of the stucture... why? CAUSE ITS A FLAMIN SHED!!! strewth :doh: :roll:

Mines 9mts be 6mts and we had some major issues when we erected it... even to the extent of driving 100+ klicks to Nth Dandalup picking up several heavier duty C channels from the FSILs dads farm and back... and now you know I havent even glanced at the damned uprights even that heavy buggar thats standing holding the friggin roof up where it shouldnt be... not once... get it right