Is the building industry full of cowboys? [Archive]

silentC

18th July 2007, 10:32 AM

In the course of building a house last year, and other works I have been involved in over the years, I have heard many 'tradesmen' saying things like "nah, we don't have to follow the manufacturer's instructions. I've done it this way for years."

I wonder how many people would be happy knowing that this attitude prevails in the building of their house? There are so many guys out there who believe they know better and that the manufacturer goes over the top to try and cover his backside. This is true, the manufacturers recommend how their products should be installed in order to reduce warranty claims. That's good business. But do you think they actually do a bit of research and work out what is most likely to result in long lasting fault-free service, or do they just sit back and think "how can we p!ss off the trades by making them jump through hoops?"

In most cases that I have come across, they always defer to the BCA, which is what you are supposed to follow anyway. I wonder how many guys also think that the BCA is 'over the top' and can be ignored because "I've been doing it like this for years". Don't rely on inspections to pick things up either, because I have witnessed this process a number of times and they can't examine everything.

My favourite one was a guy I had doing some work for me a couple of years ago. His attitude was "I'll be long dead before that ever rusts/fails/falls apart". He was 70!

In this thread (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=547712#post547712), Arms reckons that the average home owner would not be prepared to pay a premium to have everything done according to the manufacturer's instructions - implying that doing things right costs more. In other words, are you prepared to trust someone to come up with their own ideas on how it should be done and hope for the best, or would you rather 'pay a bit more' and have it done the way the manufacturer says it should be?

I have seen a lot of cowboys. I wouldn't want them working on my house. I had one and I got rid of him. I prefer the attitude of a builder mate of mine: "if you do it right the first time, you don't get called back, and I hate getting called back." He also says that doing things cheaply is a false economy because it always costs more to fix a problem than to get it right in the first place.

Bleedin Thumb

18th July 2007, 10:49 AM

Well Pilgram, I'd probably take offence at that if I wasn't so darn busy fixing this wagon.

Yippy-Yi-O-Ty-Ay.

silentC

18th July 2007, 10:57 AM

Is that it? I expected at least a little bit of outrage!

Bleedin Thumb

18th July 2007, 11:36 AM

Well OK I'll be serious for a tick.
I think you can be too officious also and if you did everything according to all the applicable Australian Standards,the Manufacturers guidelines, Workcovers requirements etc the job could not get done as a lot of these standards and guidelines contradict each other.
As you can glean from this forum there are more ways than one to skin a cat..every tradie has a different way of doing things and technology dictates that new products and fixings are tried out without previous experience and you work out what works for you.

I am mostly involved with larger stuff these days and it is so professional you would believe what skills the trades have just to get onto site. I'm not just talking about their trade skills...the management requirements are enormous and the charge out rates reflect this.

This probably results in a greater concentation of cowboys in domestic construction so you notice them when you're getting stuff done to your home, but overall there's probably more cowboys in financial services or car sales/repairs...even....IT...:o I believe that's where the real shonks hang out.:U

pawnhead

18th July 2007, 11:38 AM

You should have followed the manufacturers specs when you built that wagon BT. :wink:
Is the building industry full of cowboys?The short answer:
Yes.
The long answer:
Yippy-Yi-O-Ty-Ay

Unfortunatelly, Joe public generally can't tell the difference, and goes for the cheapest quote which often gets him in trouble. It gives the industry a bad name, and makes life hard for the decent tradesmen who have to compete with the cowboys.

Most small businesses go broke in their first year. A lot of small builders and tradesmen have registered companies and they don't have a lot to loose if the business goes broke, so they might take the risk of cutting corners to save time and money. That's not usually the case for manufacturers.

They have a lot more to loose if their product isn't up to scratch, and their product/system has to meet Australian Standards. But of course it's in their interest to come up with the cheapest and simplest product/system if they want to stay competitive.
As mentioned, they're not just trying to make people jump through hoops.

In regards to that thread, I can remember years ago that Hardies had a lot of warranty claims on their Villaboard from tiles cracking, despite having followed recommended instalation instructions. It cost them quite a bit, and it resulted in them modifying their instructions by recommending closer centres for perimeter fixing.

silentC

18th July 2007, 11:50 AM

Let me also say that I have worked with some great trades who know their business inside and out and are motivated to do a good job, both because they don't want to get called back, but also because they have pride in it.

I suppose if you have been doing something for 20 or 30 years, you get a feel for what works, although I think some people have a hard time learning lessons. If the product is new to you, then I think the best approach is to follow the guidelines. If it goes wrong, then you can go back to the manufacturer and say "what went wrong?" In that way, you're covering your own backside. I hate that attitude some guys have when they say "ahh, don't worry about that crap, it's unnecessary". The cowboy bell goes into overdrive when I hear that.

If a home owner wants you to take a shortcut to save costs, well I think if it was me I would walk away from the job. It doesn't make any sense to me to spend upwards of $300,000 on a house and try to save a couple of grand by cutting a corner. And these days you have to warrant your work for 10 years, so why would you do it?

I reckon most of the cowboys are the way they are because they are ignorant of the correct way to do something and just think they know better. If they willingly do something on the cheap just to get the job, in the knowledge that it's not up to standards, then they are not cowboys, they are criminals and deserve to have whatsername from Today Tonight chasing them down the street with a camera crew. But that's a different animal.

The cowboys I'm talking about are usually well-meaning. I've been guilty of it myself - ignorance of what we call in the IT business "best practice". Yes there are many ways to skin a cat, but there are usually only a couple of best practice methods of achieving something. And if a manufacturer says "use our product this way, or you void warranty" then I reckon you should listen, despite what your years of experience tell you, because at the end of the day, they have bigger lawyers than you do.

Bleedin Thumb

18th July 2007, 12:04 PM

If the product is new to you, then I think the best approach is to follow the guidelines.

Am I taking this phrase out of context or are you suggesting that we break The Code?:p

The correct way of dealing with a new product is to try it, make a balls up of it, throw it away, then read the instructions.
This way you have successfull undertaken field trials on the manufacturers behalf as well as gaining useful knowledge of how not to use it.:roll:

silentC

18th July 2007, 12:13 PM

No, I think the appropriate method (and here I think the Code needs updating) when you are doing the job for a paying customer is to cynically refer to the instructions, make a half hearted attempt at doing it their way, then when it doesn't work, you throw your hands in the air, go to the customer and say "these idiots don't know their arms from their aerosols" and do it the way you intended to. That way you impress your customer with your intuitive approach to your job and show up these desk jockey idiots who make up all this crap as a bunch of clowns who would be the first against the wall come the revolution.

Well, that's the way I'd do it...

echnidna

18th July 2007, 01:10 PM

Honestly, it goes way beyond tradesmen in the building trades.
Just have a good look at some of the things said in these forums.

Yippy-Yi-O-Ty-Ay.

Burnsy

18th July 2007, 02:07 PM

When I stopped running my buisness full time three years ago and decided that I would do it on the side and only work the jobs I wanted to "read well paying and good clients" The cowboy factor was one of the contributing reasons. As the boom started to accelerate in WA it got worse. In WA, landcsaping is not a registered trade and as such any clown with a ute and a wheel barrow was running around with an old evelope writing quotes out on the back of it. In the last six months of running the business I found that nearly half the quotes I was requested to do was to repair other peoples shoddy work, I took on none of those jobs. Some of them were the clients fault, they thought the contractor was a lovely bloke and paid him in full when he was nearly finished - he then never showed up.

It use to really give me the shytes when a client would rip out a quote that was hand written on the back of a business card or old envelope (yes I saw them) and proceed to ask me if I could match the quote. I would then tell them to read the fine print on my printed quote and ask the other guy if he would match my quote ie, full insurance, work guaranteed and no final payment until work is complete.

I have spoken about this before here http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?p=532302#post532302

There are definitely cowboys out there and in WA at the moment, chosing a higher quote is no way of guaranteeing anything, the "you get what you pay for" rule only applies to cheap quotes.

Rossluck

18th July 2007, 03:00 PM

I was reading your little spat with Arms, Silent, and to be quite frank I could see where he was coming from. While I agree that people who new to building work should adhere to instructions, I think that experienced tradies and builders (or people in other fields) can deviate.

I've just about finished turning a laundry into a bathroom to give our house a second bathroom, and I was following manufacturers instructions to the letter. It was sending me mad, and it was costing more and depleting my confidence. This is because their practices didn't particulalrly suit what I was doing.

Then a person I'd sold a spa to via Ebay turned up and gave me some invaluable advice. He is a tiler, and a professional renovator, and he suggested that I make myself familar with the best practices and manufactuers instructions, but not be afraid to deviate from them.

But I do know the cowboys. All of the concreting cowboys in S.E. QLD have poured a slab at my place:( :( :( .

silentC

18th July 2007, 03:11 PM

I was reading your little spat with Arms, Silent, and to be quite frank I could see where he was coming from.
The point about that is that here you have a person new to the forum asking how waterproofing should be done. All I was doing was giving the guy access to the information published by the manufacturer, which I believe to be the most sensible approach. If he chooses not to follow it, then that is his problem. What I wouldn't do (and it's a bit like the electrical threads) is to advise someone to blatantly ignore it because, "as we all know", manufacturers are just covering their backsides and you follow their guidelines at your own peril and expense.

How does the new forum member know that Arms knows anything about waterproofing? Should he just take his word for it? Maybe he hasn't got a clue. His signature line says "Flat pack kitchens". Does that qualify him to override the Hardies recommendations with his own?

So the sensible thing to me seemed to be to direct the guy to Hardie's web site. I made no comment about the advice given by others. I'm no expert on it. What I would do in that situation is either speak to a tradie that I trust, or I would read the manufacturer's recommendations and follow them.

My question is, are you happy to have trades who dismiss the recommended method of installation as overkill working on your house? If that's overkill, what is their threshold? Where else are they looking to cut corners because in their opinion it's not necessary? What about the guys who don't fit parts because they don't reckon you need them? Are you happy to see safety covers, bolts, screws and other bits and pieces left over in the box and, when questioned, have the tradie say "oh, I never bother with that bit"?

echnidna

18th July 2007, 04:00 PM

There is a big difference between deviations based on practical trades experience and being sloppy & haphazard.

I can't think of any prescriptive way a non trades person can reasonably differentiate between a cowboy and a good experienced tradesman except for speaking to prior customers. But even then, dodgy brothers inc probably have a network of good references (who they drink beer with) they can throw up.

silentC

18th July 2007, 04:17 PM

Here's an example:

A number of times over the last couple of years, I have seen the question asked "should I nail or screw my timber decking to my Duragal steel joists". The gut reaction of most 'experienced' people, is to say "screwing is better". This is the accepted wisdom.

However, if you look in the installation manual for Duragal, it says clearly "OneSteel does not recommend screwing timber decking to Duragal steel joists". It's not excluded by omission, it specifically states that it is not recommended. Now how many blokes do you reckon have screwed their deck down, either not knowing any better, or thinking that they do? Why has OneSteel gone to the trouble of pointing it out?

I bet I know why. I bet in the early days of the product, they had some warranty problems and the boffins determined that the cause was the screws. So to avoid future warranty issues, they print on all their material that screwing is not recommended. If Bob the Builder goes ahead and screws it anyway, he is screwed when it comes time to make a warranty claim.

I don't know why screwing instead of nailing causes a problem. Try and find anyone who works for OneSteel who knows. In fact I've heard at least one story of a OneSteel employee telling someone to ignore it.

Don't you think there is a reason though? Why would they limit their application that way if there wasn't a good reason? Yet so many tradies feel that it can be ignored, or are completely ignorant of the recommendation. Because they know better than the boffins at OneSteel. If they proceed to get their screwgun out regardless, then as far as I'm concerned that is cowboy behaviour. If I felt strongly enough that it was worng, I would ring OneSteel and keep trying until I found someone who could explain to me why. Then I would decide if it was warranted or not on the basis of the information they provide, rather than just saying "well, it makes no sense to me, so I'll just ignore it".

Rossluck

18th July 2007, 05:27 PM

Fair enough. I like what Echidna said: that competent experienced people may be able to employ their knowledge to ad lib, but amateurs should follow the code.

The trouble is that the building boom has meant the entry into trades of people whose mechanical aptitude is such that they should really be public servants or something. Serious professionals who know their trade and the materials that they use don't do bodgy stuff.

A few months agopicked up a bit of scrap timber from a building site (it was packing timber used to deliver tiles or bricks or something) and I was stunned to note that it was silky oak! I showed a chippie, who said: "what's that?", I said: "It's silky oak!!!". His response: "What's silky oak?"

A chippie :oo: :oo: :oo:

rod1949

18th July 2007, 06:35 PM

patty

18th July 2007, 06:56 PM

I was on the tools for many years it all depends on the project situation hourly rate or quoted job I have seen many tradesman take shortcuts and I am not going to name the trades but on Project work the boss wants you in and out asap "time is money" and money is time but on other projects you can take your time to do the job correctly and also in a safe manner as you are not under the pump I think alot of the so called Cowboy persona that is spoken about comes from Apprenticeship training if you see the boss or the leading hand take a shortcut on a job then that shortcut gets passed on from generation to generation and you can bet the shortcuts will be modified and bettered but bettered for who the tradesman or the consumer? Alot of shortcuts have been thru technology it has made alot of us lazy the other day my ole man asked me if I had a 2 inch nail and hammer my reply was no I have got my cordless and tech screws he grew up with the nail and hammer I grew up with the cordless in my hand not that either is anyway shape or form what I would call a shortcut but old tradies would.......But i also agree with Silents comments that if the manufacturer of a product says it must be done this way then do it that way

Gaza

18th July 2007, 07:02 PM

The BCA & Australian Standards are minimum requirements your finished product should out preform these guide lines
<O:p
Manufactures instructions should be followed to ensure warranty, but even these are a minium.<O:p</O:p

bitingmidge

18th July 2007, 09:35 PM

You hombres go and head him off at the pass, and I'll take the buckboard into town!

Arms is correct to the extent that people do no want to pay for manufacturer's instructions.

Then of course there's the story of the kid who asked Santa for a cowboy outfit for Christmas, and he was given the buiding industry.......

The manufacturer's instructions are there for a reason... remember a stoush I had a year or two ago with a "pro" boatbuilder who said it was OK NOT to use a primer under a particular sort of sealant? Well I've seen things fail because of people who didn't.

Today, I have left a builder replacing TEN THOUSAND screws in a project, four storeys in the air, because a subcontractor knew better.

One of the reasons (ONE OF ... :rolleyes: ) that architect-controlled jobs SEEM to cost more, is that there is a tighter level of specification.

On a thread a week or so ago, one or two people from a trade background had said they'd had copper pipe encased in concrete last for more than 25 years. Well gues what?? It can, but a large minority of those sorts of installations will fail. In my experience more than 25% in less than five years. Out of 50 apartments, if you've buried unlagged piping expect 10 or 12 to have ruined kitchens or dug up bathrooms in that time.

The original "tradesman" of course is off doing the same thing for someone else, and has never seen the problem.

Tradies only see their own trade at work, and rarely do the installers get the job of repairing damage, that's left to the "old mainentance guys" who usually have enough experience to work out what went wrong.

Yep, the manufacturer's specs are there to cover their bottoms.... so why not cover your own? I haven't yet met a subbie who has done any research into the shortcut he was taking, or the long term ramifications.

Cheers,

P
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

boban

18th July 2007, 10:29 PM

I had an interesting case that involved (amongst many other things) the installation of a toilet. Now this toilet was worth about a $800 and I estimated that more money was spent with each party making its case with respect to the correct installation.

The Villeroy and Boch instructions (which the owner read) states that the toilet pan is to be siliconed in place. The plumber (in NSW) uses a mortar mix. She is a royal pain in the butt and wants it installed according to the instructions.

Is this plumber and/or supervising builder a cowboy?

bitingmidge

18th July 2007, 10:34 PM

The Villeroy and Boch instructions (which the owner read) states that the toilet pan is to be siliconed in place. The plumber (in NSW) uses a mortar mix. She is a royal pain in the butt and wants it installed according to the instructions.

Is this plumber and/or supervising builder a cowboy?

Will the plumber and/or supervising builder come back the year after next when the mortar has cracked?

P
:wink:

bitingmidge

18th July 2007, 10:38 PM

Is this plumber and/or supervising builder a cowboy?

Perhaps the manufacturer is an Indian? :D

This thread has rustled up some of my worst nightmares! The biggies include:

One project with 3,000 panes of glass rejected, ruined because cleaning instructions weren't read.

A 36 Storey building with complete failure of the paint because the painter knew better than the manufacturer. End result: hand scraping the finish off the entire building and starting again!

Of course there are many like the single toilet suite, but if who is going to stand by the "alternative" method. The building services authority in Qld won't back the builder, that's for sure!

cheers,

P

echnidna

18th July 2007, 10:43 PM

Sometimes its necessary to temporarily remove a pan for various reasons

You can remove a pan thats siliconed in place relatively easily

Its virtually impossible to remove a pan mortared in place without breaking it.

The plumber seems at fault -
But was he instructed to use silicon or was he left to his own devices.
The builder may not have noticed though he bears the ultimate responsibility

I detest nit pickers but I'd go with the customer who is entitled to expect a reasonable standard of workmanship.

boban

18th July 2007, 10:57 PM

I didn't post the decision to see the reactions, but even the owner's own expert would not give the evidence that the toilet was not installed correctly. From memory both the AS and BCA were complied with.

As you can imagine, the toilet was a minor issue in this case, but particularly noteworthy.

Here in NSW, it is the norm for toilet pan to be placed with mortar.

I've removed a few toilets without breaking them. Actually, all except my parents one. I was not that careful, but it didn't give easily either.

Of all the people I've acted against, she is one who stands out. You can't imagine how pleased I was with her having to fork out the cash to the builder (and both sets of lawyers of course).

Blocklayer

18th July 2007, 11:01 PM

If you're complaining about the construction industry being full of Cowboys now, just wait until its full of Indians (and/or other imported labour)

boban

18th July 2007, 11:16 PM

Just out of curiosity I went to the Caroma site and had a look at their instructions.

You can find them here www.caroma.com.au/products/index.html

Both methods of installation are OK, but its one of those areas where a manufacturers instructions are not entirely consistent with the BCA or AS. I know that different areas of Australia have their preferences, with plumbers knowing what's acceptable.

Oh I forgot to mention that the aforementioned "lady" was an ex-solicitor. A charming woman and very knowledgable when it came to building.

bitingmidge

18th July 2007, 11:17 PM

You can't imagine how pleased I was with her having to fork out the cash to the builder (and both sets of lawyers of course).

Of course! :wink:

.... but my pans are siliconed in anyway!

Here in NSW, it is the norm for toilet pan to be placed with mortar.

I do have a problem with that. Since when did "the norm" become the optimum specification? Consensus installation??

On my projects, it's the norm for things to be placed in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions, OR I get a rather comprehensive document releasing my and my clients and my end-users from any claim arising whatsoever!

Notwithstanding that I've got a few pedants whom I'd like to see on the losing side as well.

Cheers,

P

boban

18th July 2007, 11:31 PM

Truth be told BM, the builder was a top bloke and a good builder. He acknowledged that the instructions weren't followed and would have redone it himself to please her. If only that was where the issues ended. However, as I've intimated, she was somewhat unique.

It's not about being the norm being better, but rather an example of how a tradie can do it his way and still be doing it in accordance with the BCA and AS.

I'll admit that I have a habit of reading instructions, which in my experience is not quite widespread as you would expect. On high end jobs, where you are installing PC items or materials that are of significant value, I cannot understand not covering your own butt by reading and following the instructions (or alternatively covering it some other way).

Nor the builder who wont pay $500-$1000 to have a new $500,000 building contract read by a lawyer. Not that I'm going to complain.

journeyman Mick

18th July 2007, 11:48 PM

I've seen some cowboys in the building industry, don't know that they're more prevalent than in any other industry. Certainly in Qld I believe that the QBSA has tightened things up a lot and weeded out some of the shonks. It's way, way harder for a tradesman from overseas to become a QBSA license holder than a foreign doctor to get a job in the Qld health service (true, not an exaggeration :o ) Personally I'm like Silent C's builder mate, call backs cost you time, money and most importantly, reputation. I can happily say I've only ever been called back to a job once.:)

Mick

boban

19th July 2007, 12:03 AM

And there I was thinking that the Cowboys were in Nth Queensland.

bitingmidge

19th July 2007, 08:43 AM

However, as I've intimated, she was somewhat unique.

I do love it when those unique people get it in the end, although I suspect they never understand that they did it to themselves.

BTW, our last building contract, (nearly $40m) cost nearly $200k in legal fees shared between an enlightened client and builder.

Finished on time, on budget with all sides and occupiers still mates, so our legal fees as is mostly the case, were saved many times over, just in dispute costs alone.

While I hate paying lawyers even more than I hate paying Real Estate Salesmen :D , I don't understand why people embark on the largest project of their lives without taking that sort of advice, (or those who try to sell stuff themselves for that matter!).

As Boban implies folks, it's cheap insurance, (and better than that,it gives you a lawyer to sue if things go wrong!:D :D :D )

If you don't want to read the instructions, get a lawyer to do it for you!

P

Honorary Bloke

19th July 2007, 08:51 AM

While I hate paying lawyers even more than I hate paying Real Estate Salesmen :D ,

You HAD ought to smile when you say that, pardner. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Barry_White

19th July 2007, 09:08 AM

Bleedin Thumb

19th July 2007, 09:49 AM

Mind you I've sat on a few that have come adrift and that is hairy situation when you go to use the toilet paper.

Thats the urban equivalent of bull riding........Ye Ha!

silentC

19th July 2007, 09:59 AM

I'm reading this and thinking "what the... how the hell does one hammer a nial into steel." So in checking on Onesteels site, yes you are right with nailing BUT you didn't mention that its a special hardened stainless steel nail and appears to require a special nailer. As most blokes wouldn't have one of these the next best thing is to screw.

Yet ironically Onesteel state to use winged screw teks to flooring that is under cover.
I think you'll find that most builders these days either own or have access to a coil nailer, which is all you need. I borrowed one from a mate to do mine.

If they go ahead and use a screw, despite what OneSteel says, then they are cowboys!

BTW I have a feeling that the problem they are avoiding is due to moisture ingress. We have speculated that the water can follow the screw thread. Why it can't get in around the nail, I have no idea. Duragal members are joined with tek screws but they must have a neoprene washer and you should go to great lengths to seal all joins to prevent moisture ingress. That's another thing you're average tradie scoffs at. "You don't need all that! The paint will seal it!"

silentC

19th July 2007, 10:04 AM

The Villeroy and Boch instructions (which the owner read) states that the toilet pan is to be siliconed in place. The plumber (in NSW) uses a mortar mix. She is a royal pain in the butt and wants it installed according to the instructions.

I would have rung them and asked them why they specifically require silicone. Then they would either give me a good reason, or tell me I can use mortar if I want, but silicone is more common these days. Either way, if the owner was that big a pain in the backside, I would let her know what I was doing and why. Then she couldn't complain, right?

bitingmidge

19th July 2007, 10:05 AM

Being old enough to be around when silicone sealer was first introduced into the building industry and having used 1000's of tubes in the window industry and roofing industry the only way toilet pans were fixed down was with mortar and if they where done properly they never came adrift.

Ahhh yes, the good old days, before new fangled close coupled suites made in exotic locations where all tradies are craftsmen working to the mm!

Some of the tolerances (or lack thereof) in some of the new top-shelf stuff in particular has to be seen to be disbelieved!

On the other hand, I've always thought a ring of grey mortar set off the new limestone floor remarkably well! :D

I reckon you need to run down to the paper shop and buy a Home Beautiful to see what's changed in the last 30 years Baz, people are putting dunnies in their bedrooms now, and baths in their living rooms to boot :oo: ! :D

Cheers,

P

silentC

19th July 2007, 10:07 AM

people are putting dunnies in their bedrooms now
Jeez, that would kill the moment wouldn't it? "Just stay there and think sexy thoughts, I'll be back in a tick!"

mathewfarrell

19th December 2008, 12:52 PM

...I found that nearly half the quotes I was requested to do was to repair other peoples shoddy work...

This is testimony that the cowboys can get away with it. I really respect what you mate said, Silent, about doing it right to avoid being called back. His 'disadvantage', if we can be so crass as to call it that, is operating ethically. So many person-to-person interactions and altercations rely on this, from hiring a tradie, to getting your bike fixed when someone t-bones you.

I would think that nine out of ten examples of onesteel failures never make it to a warranty claim, and of those that do, nine out of ten times the builder can't be found. Homeowner versus Onsteel—and neither of them to blame, so it goes nowhere.

I don't advocate cowboyism. I too agree that it's rife, but I certainly wouldn't stop at tradies. 'working class folk' are perhaps more blatant though than someone who wears a tie for a living (could you really trust someone who wears such a useless and unpractical article?)

From working in the bicycle industry (and being only as humble as is necessary), In many cases I knew I was more knowledgable than—or least respected by—many manufacturer/distributor warranty mechanics. We successfully made various warranty claims that by the book shouldn't have gone through, based on our trusted reputation or superior product knowledge.
Have a read through Prisig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintainance for a superfluous insight into factory instructions. You are definitely right though about getting someone there to explain 'why'

Timespenttiler

14th January 2009, 05:59 PM

Mate there are cowboys out there but wat your saying does not define a cowboy the word is thrown around far to much by people nowing little about the meaning, i have a feeling you are not a tradesperson and neva have been would i be correct. A job should be done to trade standard and australian standard with products fit for the job at hand. I am a very successful tiler and have done my apprenticeship and other higher tickets in the trades field so i do have a right to an opionon on this matter. The information on products such as cements ect is guide only and usually based for handy man jobs not large areas most the time youll evan be told to mix it by bucket would like ur plasterer to do ur house bucket by bucket?.

silentC

15th January 2009, 08:46 AM

Yee ha!!

Ruddigar

15th January 2009, 09:02 AM

Yee ha!!
Touche :D

echnidna

15th January 2009, 09:26 AM

How many it people are cowboys?

silentC

15th January 2009, 09:29 AM

13,248

silentC

15th January 2009, 09:48 AM

OK, I'm in a generous mood so I'll give the fellow an answer.

Mate there are cowboys out there but wat your saying does not define a cowboy
I say it does.

the word is thrown around far to much by people nowing little about the meaning,
Didn't know there was a formal meaning for the term as it pertains to tradespeople. Can you post a reference?

i have a feeling you are not a tradesperson and neva have been would i be correct.
Never said I was. Not sure what this has to do with it though. Are you saying that only a tradesperson is allowed to call someone a cowboy? Union thing is it?

A job should be done to trade standard and australian standard with products fit for the job at hand.
And used in accordance with manufacturers directions. Could not agree more.

I am a very successful tiler and have done my apprenticeship and other higher tickets in the trades field so i do have a right to an opionon on this matter.
We've only got your word for that but in any case who says that you need qualifications to have an opinion? Are you saying that only a person who has received apprenticeship training in a trade has a right to have an opinion on anything to do with the building industry? I think that the fact that it's my hard-earned money you are taking from me gives me every right to have an opinion.

The information on products such as cements ect is guide only and usually based for handy man jobs not large areas most the time youll evan be told to mix it by bucket would like ur plasterer to do ur house bucket by bucket?.
I don't give a **** how you mix it. But if it says to prime the surface first, or not use it in wet areas, or not exceed 10mm in thickness or whatever you better follow it or it will be your asre that will be getting kicked if it fails in 2 years time.

Hope that clears things up a bit.

Groggy

15th January 2009, 10:00 AM

13,248That sounds like an onageristic assessment :D

silentC

15th January 2009, 10:05 AM

I assure you it was based on the same stringent methodology I apply to all of my estimates :)

echnidna

15th January 2009, 11:58 AM

you mean it was a wild guess then !!!! :D

Groggy

15th January 2009, 04:39 PM

you mean it was a wild guess then !!!! :DHint: an onager is an asian "wild ass".....

Lignin

15th January 2009, 05:32 PM

My dear old Dad was the principal of a Tech College( You youngsters know it as a TAFE):doh:
He told me, way back in the 60s that "The trades are buggered":oo::oo:
When I asked why, he said that Tech courses were "infra dig" and that the system was having to lower its admission standards to accommodate and attract trade students.(You oldsters will remember the "Clever Country''slogan---everyone had to have a Uni degree!):o:o
Talk to any old "Tradie", and he'll tell you what his apprentices DON'T know, not what they DO.They are undertrained and over paid.Bring back the Premium, say I.:2tsup::2tsup:
That's why any tradie under 50 yr old who does work for me does it "a la plumbers' handbook!!""
It's too bloody easy to cut corners!! :no::no:

An Onager is also a machine for chucking rocks, dead dogs etc at the enemy.

bobbo

15th January 2009, 07:41 PM

The whole world is full of cowboys, Silent C. It is also full of heroes. Our job is to recognise them. a retired copper once told me that the only reason anyone ever gets conned is because ,deep down,they think they are actually putting one over on the con artist. the BCA and its other state equivelants were not put in place to protect you. They were put in place to siphon a tax upon the activity of the building industry. It has always been your job to sort the goodies from the baddies, and it always will be. There is nothing wrong with this; it is a major part of evolution. Is that a Tiger making the long grass move, or a vagrant puff of wind?:)

silentC

16th January 2009, 09:46 AM

The whole world is full of cowboys
You don't need to tell me that :)

The reason I started this thread (and it was a year and a half ago) was to get a reaction from some of the people in the building industry who frequented the forums back then. Since we've split off the building stuff into the renovation forums, most of them no longer come here.

Some of these guys were running a de facto building advisory service in which they would often tell people to ignore the installation instructions because they never followed them themselves. To my mind, that is bad advice to give and bad advice to follow. It led me to question the quality of the jobs being done by these guys themselves given the fact they seemed to feel you could ignore what the manufacturer said about their own products. I've seen nothing here to convince me otherwise.

It has nothing to do with the BCA or trade qualifications.

echnidna

16th January 2009, 09:49 AM

hey SC is retreating. :o

Geoff Dean

16th January 2009, 10:00 AM

hey SC is retreating. :o

Don't bet on it.
My guess is a small tactical retreat so as to regroup and push for an all out final assault. :D:D

Groggy

16th January 2009, 10:03 AM

hey SC is retreating. :oDon't believe it - it's a trap!

Lignin

16th January 2009, 10:23 AM

SC,
How can you assert that your Thread had nothing to do with trade qualifications when you constantly refer to "Trades" and "Tradies" as the people most likely NOT to follow the manufacturers' instructions.
At the risk of being accused of going back on my original rant, only well trained and experienced tradesmen would be selective enough to know WHICH instructions could be ignored, and, in the opinion of a lot of experienced (read "OLDER) tradesmen of my acquaintance, apprenticeships nowadays are to "Narrow and Shallow".
I ,as a practicing Luddite, am very aware that technology moves on, but most of the raw materials are still the same, and, if you understand them, you're half way there.
I cannot comment on the Building Codes.I'll leave that to someone with more experience!!!!

silentC

16th January 2009, 10:48 AM

echnidna

16th January 2009, 11:19 AM

I can assert that because I started the thread and I know what I was on about.

The reason that trades come into it is because they are the people doing the work. I would not walk into a pub and say to the drunk in the corner "hey would you like to come and do some plastering for me", would I? So it is natural to assume that the people I am referring to are (or consider themselves to be) trades.

It's not about whether or not a person has qualifications. It's about people who say things like "they're just covering their arses" as they throw the installation instructions in the bin.

But a tradie plasterer might walk into a pub and say to the drunk in the corner "hey would you like to come and do some plastering for me" when he needs someone with a weak mind and a strong back to hump the sheets sround and lift them up while the tradey fixes the sheets to the frame.

What's wrong with that?

silentC

16th January 2009, 11:25 AM

Nothing - but the plasterer is responsible for making sure the job is done to standards, not the drunk. You don't need a qualification to hang plaster, you don't even need one to run wires - anyone can do either. But you need a contractor's license to do both and it is under that license that the assumption is made you will follow standards and provide a warranty.

Answer me this: to use the example of the Duragal deck frame. Would you ignore the manufacturer's recommendation to not use screws?

echnidna

16th January 2009, 11:33 AM

Probably not as I haven't worked with duragal, so I cannot draw on practical experience.

silentC

16th January 2009, 11:58 AM

Even if you have worked with Duragal, the only way you're ever going to have personal experience regarding the use of decking screws with Duragal is if you have laid a deck that way, in which case you have ignored the manufacturer's recommendations for the use of their product without prior experience to back it up. Catch-22 :)

I suppose you could ask around and find someone who has done it that way. Maybe they laid the deck 5 years ago and there's no sign of rust on the joists. They might be lucky. Still, would you put your ar.se on the line over it? Most builders/carpenters I talked to reckoned it was BS and they would use decking screws if that's what the client wanted. But then how many of them have ever laid a deck over Duragal? My guess: none.

Or maybe you would call OneSteel and ask them why they don't recommend screws. That's what I did. But then I'm not a tradesman.

damian

16th January 2009, 12:06 PM

I find the building industry bizzarre. I know some people who are master craftsmen, but they are either retired altogether or out of the trade due the beaurocracy.

I am astounded at the utter stupidity of some of the people I find in building. Some examples:

My ladyfriends house is in part on a slab at the back. The bricklayer layed one wall about 1/3 brick off the slab.

She has just had a timber retaining wall rebuilt that collpased in last years storm. They went on all along about the uprights needing to be thick side perpendicular, but built the wall with the wide side to the horizontals, after weeks of condeming it being built that way before. They also managed to build it 1 horizontal too low, and dead vertical. Then they raked out the remaining fill instead of using it behind the wall, now I've got to rake it up again and backfill, and the wall is too short to properly retain the neighbours land.

The building industry has layered checking. This doesn't provide quality, it disperses blame so no one is accountable. The mining industry have learned the same trick. Decision by committee so it no ones fault, but costs twice as much. A licensed tradesman works for a licenced builder, with a licenced inspector looking over his shoulder, and a set of plans from a chartered engineer all overseen by council, state government and building authority. Absolute BS. Cunningly designed to discourage people who want to build good houses and effect a monopoly to the institutional building firms.

I'm bitter because I want to move, but every option is not easy.