Villaboard in Shower Area

[bazman]

I'm what you would call a novice DIY-er but am willing to give it a go! It's my first time at attempting to re-tile the walls of a shower area.

My question is regarding Villaboard - I have read conflicting reports as to whether this needs to be treated for moisture before applying tiles to - can some one confirm whether this is the case.

I have also heard that there is a 'green' cement sheet which is already treated so I assume that I can tile directly on to this - again has anyone heard of this?

Any recommendations for a good tile adhesive in a wet area?

Thanks in advance!

[wonderplumb]

Standard villa board is ok, but it has to be waterproofed in the 'wet' areas prior to tiling, eg, waterproof above the height of your shower (around 2m), the standard width of a shower is 900mm so waterproof that area to around 1100mm, then you waterproof your whole floor and up the walls about 300mm. Im no expert in this area but have seen many bathrooms prior to tiling and this is how they've all looked. There is sure to be a waterproofer somewhere on the forum that can either confirm this or shoot me down in flames!!!!!!!!

[arms]

I'm what you would call a novice DIY-er but am willing to give it a go! It's my first time at attempting to re-tile the walls of a shower area.

My question is regarding Villaboard - I have read conflicting reports as to whether this needs to be treated for moisture before applying tiles to - can some one confirm whether this is the case.

I have also heard that there is a 'green' cement sheet which is already treated so I assume that I can tile directly on to this - again has anyone heard of this?

Any recommendations for a good tile adhesive in a wet area?

Thanks in advance!


villaboard is a wonderful product ,in my bathroom installations ,i sheet ,i seal the corners with base coat and tape ,wait for it to dry then apply a coating of waterproofing membrane to all corners and joints ,and any edges that i thing will be affected by moisture ,coating the whole area is an overkill as the manufacturer of the tiling adhesive is looking for someone else to blame if their product fails :o

[silentC]

One of the great things about things about the Internet (apart from forums like these) is that a lot of manufacturers offer their product technical information online. Fortunately, James Hardie is one of them, so do yourself a favour and download and read these:

Villaboard Installation Manual (http://www.jameshardie.com.au/NR/rdonlyres/35BEF5AF-EA94-40CB-9A32-DCD0A709FD0A/0/VillaboardInstallationSeptember20055.pdf)
Wet Area Construction Design Manual (http://www.jameshardie.com.au/NR/rdonlyres/B18C4A73-79AE-4FE2-8C02-6A8512788437/0/WetAreaConstruction09_06.pdf)

[arms]

One of the great things about things about the Internet (apart from forums like these) is that a lot of manufacturers offer their product technical information online. Fortunately, James Hardie is one of them, so do yourself a favour and download and read these:

Villaboard Installation Manual (http://www.jameshardie.com.au/NR/rdonlyres/35BEF5AF-EA94-40CB-9A32-DCD0A709FD0A/0/VillaboardInstallationSeptember20055.pdf)
Wet Area Construction Design Manual (http://www.jameshardie.com.au/NR/rdonlyres/B18C4A73-79AE-4FE2-8C02-6A8512788437/0/WetAreaConstruction09_06.pdf)


yeah ,and i have read them all back to front and the manufacturers go to great lengths to cover their behind if their product fails ,btw if all contractors took notice of the recommended installation instructions for all things that make a house or a reno, would you pay at least a 50 percent premium over and above the cost of the reno/house i think not !!!!!!!!!!!!!,:no:

[silentC]

So your advice is to listen to a guy who makes flat pack kitchens and ignore the manufacturer's instructions?

I think not.

[arms]

So your advice is to listen to a guy who makes flat pack kitchens and ignore the manufacturer's instructions?

I think not.


no my advice is to read the manufacturers RECOMMENDATIONS and if you feel comfortable with them then go ahead and follow them ,what i am saying is that people in the trade KNOW what to do ,thats why we are tradies for goodness sake ,tradies (me included) know our business and KNOW what to do both legally and morally to get the job first accepted and then do it , i feel sorry for the weekend warrior sometimes because they treat all brochures with gospel and follow them to the letter then wonder why it cost more to do in time and money then the tradie quoted them .
as for the assumption that i am simply a flat pack kitchen manufacturer ,I have been wy own business for 26 years now and throughout that time i have done kitchens ,bathrooms,shopfits,and i believe that i have the experience to recommend to the proponents of this forum free advice,if they take me up on it then well and good ,if they dont then thats well and good still ,
an older person once told me that experience is a learned thing and the best thing you can recieve for free is someones experience and knowledge:2tsup:

think about it

[bitingmidge]

arms,

Not talking kitchens specifically, but if more subbies installed in accordance with manufacturer's instructions, there'd be a lot less spent on repairs and early replacement.

To talk specifically about villaboard, install STRICTLY in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations.

Having once instructed a builder to pull out over 200 fully tiled bathrooms with walls that developed a lovely wave effect after a few months use, I can assure you that not all subbies know better than the manufacturer!

cheers,

P

[arms]

arms,

Not talking kitchens specifically, but if more subbies installed in accordance with manufacturer's instructions, there'd be a lot less spent on repairs and early replacement.

To talk specifically about villaboard, install STRICTLY in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations.

Having once instructed a builder to pull out over 200 fully tiled bathrooms with walls that developed a lovely wave effect after a few months use, I can assure you that not all subbies know better than the manufacturer!

cheers,

and i agree with you but was the problem with the bathrooms you mention to do with the application of the menbrane coating or did the builder skimp on the structure that the villa board had to go on ,there is a big difference !
P

[silentC]

The specific question was this:


My question is regarding Villaboard - I have read conflicting reports as to whether this needs to be treated for moisture before applying tiles to - can some one confirm whether this is the case.

I replied with two links to James Hardie documentation stating how the product was to be installed and a general guide to wet areas. The answer to that question is addressed therein and I hoped it would carry more weight than an anonymous answer on a public forum would. However, you came along with:


i have read them all back to front and the manufacturers go to great lengths to cover their behind if their product fails
You imply that bazman can safely ignore the manufacturer's instructions because they're only covering their behinds. Then you go on to imply that most contractors take no notice of recommended installation instructions anyway. As far as I'm concerned, that's the definition of cowboy and the main reason that the building industry has a bad reputation.


what i am saying is that people in the trade KNOW what to do ,thats why we are tradies for goodness sake
I'm sorry but that sums up my point to a T. So many 'tradies' believe they know better. Now I'm not saying you're one of them, I've never seen your work. However, the insistence that they know better than the manufacturer of a product is what gets so many people into trouble.


i feel sorry for the weekend warrior sometimes because they treat all brochures with gospel and follow them to the letter then wonder why it cost more to do in time and money then the tradie quoted them
Yes I would wonder about that too. How can the tradie do it cheaper than me? Could it be because his attitude is that doing it the way the manufacturer recommends it is overkill?

I'm not saying you don't know what you are doing, but I think that implying to a new forum member that the manufacturer's instructions are overkill and can be ignored is a bit irresponsible to my way of thinking.

[Cliff Rogers]

You have to watch out for those brochures..... they'll tell you anything. :p

[bitingmidge]

and i agree with you but was the problem with the bathrooms you mention to do with the application of the menbrane coating or did the builder skimp on the structure that the villa board had to go on ,there is a big difference !

In that particular case, the specialist wall installation subcontractor installed the sheeting using glue and about a third of the screw fixings specified by the manufacturer.

The board absorbed a certain amount of moisture, as it was designed to do, the adhesive failed, and the board bowed under the load of the tiles, becauase it had inadequate fixing.

I can't think of how many millions of bathrooms have been built without problem, and the subbie "got away with it". In that particular case, the builder was a large public company and stood by their work, the subcontractor wasn't, and was bankrupted as a result. The builder was fortunate that no owner sued for damages due to lost income in their rental apartment, I suspect there was a bit of the Aussie "do the right thing" happening, but doubt that they'd get away with it now!

Cheers,

P

[arms]

The specific question was this:



I replied with two links to James Hardie documentation stating how the product was to be installed and a general guide to wet areas. The answer to that question is addressed therein and I hoped it would carry more weight than an anonymous answer on a public forum would. However, you came along with:


You imply that bazman can safely ignore the manufacturer's instructions because they're only covering their behinds. Then you go on to imply that most contractors take no notice of recommended installation instructions anyway. As far as I'm concerned, that's the definition of cowboy and the main reason that the building industry has a bad reputation.


I'm sorry but that sums up my point to a T. So many 'tradies' believe they know better. Now I'm not saying you're one of them, I've never seen your work. However, the insistence that they know better than the manufacturer of a product is what gets so many people into trouble.


Yes I would wonder about that too. How can the tradie do it cheaper than me? Could it be because his attitude is that doing it the way the manufacturer recommends it is overkill?

I'm not saying you don't know what you are doing, but I think that implying to a new forum member that the manufacturer's instructions are overkill and can be ignored is a bit irresponsible to my way of thinking.


Bless me lord for i have sinned :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:

[silentC]

So do you provide instructions with your flat pack kitchens?

[Cliff Rogers]

'The Code' says, & I quote....

6.2.1. Instruction manuals. Under no circumstances should a bloke ever completely read the instructions to anything. Ideally they shouldn't be read at all, but if absolutely necessary a casual flick through should be more than enough for any bloke to assemble and operate anything. A bloke with a new tool should regard its instruction manual in much the same light as he regards a road map when driving his car.

[silentC]

Do you mind, Cliff? I'm trying to have an argument here and there's few enough of them these days as it it.

[Cliff Rogers]

Sorry, argument hmm...
Mr. DeBakey's free, but he's a little bit conciliatory.
Ahh yes, Try Mr. Barnard; room 12.

[arms]

So do you provide instructions with your flat pack kitchens?


as a matter of fact i do ,i send all of my customers to a webpage behind the scenes for assembly ,now that i think about it i believe that i have published it here ,but then again the old mind isnt what it used to be ,but experience still seems to be here !!!!!!!!!!:2tsup:

[Metung]

Can't resist a healthy discussion. Seems to me the question is whether Villaboard needs to be sealed before sticking on tiles. The installations instructions for Villaboard are exactly that - the installation of the Villaboard. Whether it has to be sealed before sticking on tiles would surely depend upon the type of adhesive you use. I would rely on the advice of the adhesive manufacturer rather than the Villaboard installation instructions.

[ex-chippie]

Am i the only one this sounds like a cat fight to ????????????????????????? And for what it's worth, i've never sealed any wet area/villaboard over the years (other than over stopped-up areas) and haven't got any callbacks yet!

Be good,
Jason.:D

[arms]

Am i the only one this sounds like a cat fight to ????????????????????????? And for what it's worth, i've never sealed any wet area/villaboard over the years (other than over stopped-up areas) and haven't got any callbacks yet!

Be good,
Jason.:D


this is exactly what i posted in my original reply to this thread:doh:

[silentC]

as a matter of fact i do ,i send all of my customers to a webpage behind the scenes for assembly
So do you expect them to follow them, or just do it the way they think best? What would you do if a DIYer didn't follow your instructions and then rang you to say they had a problem?


Seems to me the question is whether Villaboard needs to be sealed before sticking on tiles
Correct. I think you'll find the answer is that Villaboard does not need to be sealed but that the relevant code needs to be adhered to with regard to waterproofing. That's what the manufacturer recommends:

"For walling applications, Villaboard lining covered with tiles and HardiGlaze
tile sheets are ideal as they meet the waterproofing requirements in
shower areas."

In other words, the board itself satisfies the waterproofing requirements. I've never heard of anyone sealing it first, in fact I think that it would be counter-productive to do it.


this is exactly what i posted in my original reply to this thread
I'm not objecting to your original advice, never said I was. James Hardie pretty much supports your method, and if you actually read the guides, you would know this. I'm objecting to this:


yeah ,and i have read them all back to front and the manufacturers go to great lengths to cover their behind if their product fails ,btw if all contractors took notice of the recommended installation instructions for all things that make a house or a reno, would you pay at least a 50 percent premium over and above the cost of the reno/house i think not

This is what you posted after I gave the links to those James Hardie doucments. It implies that they can be ignored and your advice is that doing it the way the manufacturer recommends is going to cost more for no benefit.

It's clear to me that you haven't even read it. It indicates to me that your objection to my posting those links was a knee-jerk reaction. Maybe you could go through and, using your wealth of experience, point out which aspects of the installation instructions and wet area design guide are unnecessary and over the top. They look quite reasonable to me, but then I'm not a 'tradie'. You might find you agree with 90% of it and don't even know it.

I think the areas you are most likely to vary are when it comes to corner flashings but this is the area where you are most likely to get leaks and it actually doesn't cost all that much more to do that bit right. Most of the cost of the job is in wall sheet and tiles. The membrane is needed anyway and only costs a couple of hundred to have installed. The few extra materials needed to do it properly wouldn't amount to much.


Am i the only one this sounds like a cat fight to
Not sure what you're implying. What it is is an objection to the attitude that exists amongst a lot of tradies (I say a lot because they're not all like this) who think that they can just do things in their own way and disregard the guidelines. Cowboys, the lot of 'em.

[arms]

This is what you posted after I gave the links to those James Hardie doucments. It implies that they can be ignored and your advice is that doing it the way the manufacturer recommends is going to cost more for no benefit.


could you please expand on your experience or knowledge on waterproofing and villa board ,i openly show my credentials but know nothing about yours ,perhaps you are just objecting to posts for arguments sake :oo: :oo: :oo:

[silentC]

could you please expand on your experience or knowledge on waterproofing and villa board
I don't have any, as I've already pointed out. Never said I have. I have Aquachek in my bathrooms and the waterproof membrane was installed by my tiler. I'm not offering advice, other than to refer to the manufacturer's instructions, nor am I contradicting yours. All I am doing is objecting to your attitude to the information I provided a link to. I'm not putting my experience and knowledge up against yours, I'm putting the experience and knowledge of James Hardie's engineering department up against yours.

So come on, seeing as you've read it from cover to cover, which specific parts of the installation manual and/or wet area design guide do you disagree with, and why, in your experience, are they unecessary. What steps do you take to mitigate the potential for failure that James Hardie, in their haste to cover their own backsides, are trying to prevent?


perhaps you are just objecting to posts for arguments sake
Now that would just be silly, wouldn't it? A bit like automatically rejecting manufacturer's installation instructions without even reading them because you've been 'doing it that way for years and never had a call back'.

[bitingmidge]

Tom,

I'm afraid I'm pretty much with Silent on this one. I'd like to remind you of your opening statement if I may:
yeah ,and i have read them all back to front and the manufacturers go to great lengths to cover their behind if their product fails ,btw if all contractors took notice of the recommended installation instructions for all things that make a house or a reno, would you pay at least a 50 percent premium over and above the cost of the reno/house i think not !!!!!!!!!!!!!,:no:

I do have a bit of experience with villaboard installation, and with failures from installations that didn't follow the manufacturer's recommendations, and I'd love to know what specifically tradies can do to save 50% of the villaboard installation cost, that won't impact on the work!

These sorts of claims are dangerous to say the least, but I'm happy to learn.


,coating the whole area is an overkill as the manufacturer of the tiling adhesive is looking for someone else to blame if their product fails
Again interesting. The villaboard instructions are not concerned with tiling adhesive, just keeping the sheets flat in the long term. IF your tiling adhesive manufacturer directs waterproofing behind the sheets, then I suggest you do it (or use a different brand adhesive).

You may recall a time in the eighties when every five year old shower lost its tiles?? Yep, glue failure due to moisture absorbtion..... Glues have improved and so have the instructions.

Has it occurred to you that if a the manufacturer recommends something, their product has been designed to work in that situation, and maybe not in another??? You may get away with ignoring the instructions, heaven knows I do all the time, but NOT when I'm doing work or giving advice to someone else!

I'd still like to hear how what shortcuts you recommend for the Villaboard installation.


Cheers,

P
:wink:

[arms]

,coating the whole area is an overkill as the manufacturer of the tiling adhesive is looking for someone else to blame if their product fails :o[/quote]


this was my origional reply to the question , if you read my response you will see that i am talking about coating the villa board entirely with waterproofing compound ,the tiling adhesives manufacturers recommend coating the entire surface before appling glue ,but heres the kicker ,they recommend only using their waterproofing compound to adhere their glue to ,now i dont know anyone that covers the entire sheet before tiling ,but if the weekend warrier were to read this advice then they would proceed with the purchase of the sealer and following manufacturers RECOMMENDATIONS end up paying an extra %50 over what it should cost in the real world :doh:

[Cliff Rogers]

The tiler who did our bathroom waterproofed the whole area to be tiled.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=41517&d=1173165477
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=41518&d=1173165477

[silentC]

If you go on and install a waterproof membrane to the entire sheet, it's not because James Hardie recommends it. But there's no way it adds 50% to the cost anyway. It uses what, half a litre more of the membrane, and about 15 minutes?

I don't think it's unusual for the glue manufacturer to recommend their own membrane. There are a few different types and if they are expected to warrant their glue, then they would want to specify the type of membrane it goes over. If the glue isn't compatible, then it could fail.

[bitingmidge]

the tiling adhesives manufacturers recommend coating the entire surface before appling glue ,but heres the kicker ,they recommend only using their waterproofing compound to adhere their glue to ,

Not all adhesive requires this, however the products that do require compatible product for a very good reason. If non-compatible product is used there can be a breakdown or complete loss of adhesion.

Having overseen the removal of all of the external paint on a 35 story building because an incompatible sealer was used, I can tell you I won't accept the use of materials from differing manufacturers on any job I'm involved with.

Three or four years ago, I had a builder replace artificial grass surfacing AND waterproofing on the roof decks of 24 apartments, after it bubbled off due to using glue and waterproofing from different manufacturers. This was despite clear warnings on the literature and the tins.

These are real projects, and while I won't name them online, I'll happily show you the files - makes very sobering reading. It may be that I see more of these issues because I work at a large scale, and therefore see many more projects than a typical house builder, certainly I'm not talking about shonky builders here. All the builders have been large companies with good solid reputations. Somewhere down the line, someone didn't read the instructions.


now i dont know anyone that covers the entire sheet before tiling ,but if the weekend warrier were to read this advice then they would proceed with the purchase of the sealer and following manufacturers RECOMMENDATIONS end up paying an extra %50 over what it should cost in the real world :doh:

Well, I've certainly seen it done on more than one occasion, and in my own places I make a point of wetsealing under all tiles in the wet parts - full shower recess rather than just the corners, bath to 600 and so on. This is because the cost of fixing a failure in five or six years, when it's likely to happen, will be 150% of the original cost.

On the other hand, there are adhesives on the market which do not require this. Are they better or cheaper? I don't know.

What I do know is that if a manufacturer says you should do something, they generally aren't kidding. The instance of failure may be small if you don't, but there will be failure.

Typical instances I see regularly are:

Sealants designed for use with primers, that people tell me "they've never used a primer in their life".

Epoxies designed for specifice proportional mixes, that people "slosh" together.

Paint and glue systems where different manufacturer's products are mixed.

Metals (specially zincalume) installed in non-recommended situations. I have mentioned previously that I currently have a builder replacing all the screws in the soffits and verandahs of a ninety unit complex...

The biggest problem I have, is that the subcontract companies are long gone when these problems occur. If the problems occur early, (like the screws, the carpet and the paint above) the company goes bust, but the guys that did the job live on, and never seem to learn, in fact they don't even get to know it happened, so go on repeating the mistake in ignorance.

The instances of failure may be small percentage wise, but they still cost.

Personally, I pay to insure my house in the hope I never have to make a claim, and read the instructions for the same reason.

And yes, I have been sworn at by subbies for insisting on doing things by the book!:p

Cheers,

P
:cool: :cool: :cool:

[silentC]

if the weekend warrier were to read this advice then they would proceed with the purchase of the sealer and following manufacturers RECOMMENDATIONS end up paying an extra %50 over what it should cost in the real world
I'm just at a loss as to what the alternative might be, Arms. Do we tell DIYers like the original poster (who appears to have beaten a hasty retreat) to not bother and get in a tradesman? Do we tell them to ignore the manufacturer and ask here? What warranty are you going to give on your advice if it contradicts the instructions on the tin? How does he know that you know what you are talking about? Are you going to go and help him fix it if following your advice causes the job to fail?

Sorry, but I think that the line or reasoning you are following is unsupportable.

[arms]

I'm just at a loss as to what the alternative might be, Arms. Do we tell DIYers like the original poster (who appears to have beaten a hasty retreat) to not bother and get in a tradesman? Do we tell them to ignore the manufacturer and ask here? What warranty are you going to give on your advice if it contradicts the instructions on the tin? How does he know that you know what you are talking about? Are you going to go and help him fix it if following your advice causes the job to fail?

Sorry, but I think that the line or reasoning you are following is unsupportable.


for gods sake !!! do what you want to do ,go where you want to be ,think for yourself ,fly be free !!!!!!

[bitingmidge]

fly be free !!!!!!

Isn't flying the most heavily regulated pastime there is?

Holy moley, last time I read the instructions on a plane they were equivalent to to the ones on about a thousand tins of paint!!

P (retreating to his padded cell)
:D :D :D

[Cliff Rogers]

....P (retreating to his padded cell)
:D :D :D
Aha! No, you want room 12A, next door. :2tsup:

[silentC]

for gods sake !!! do what you want to do ,go where you want to be ,think for yourself ,fly be free !!!!!!
It's not about what I do Armsy, it's about what someone else might. I'm very concerned that some impressionable young DIYer might come on here and actually listen to you and race off and make a hash of something because Armsy says you don't need to follow the directions. It's OK mate, Armsy says they're only covering their butts, we don't need to do all that! We can fly and be free! Yee hah!! Yippy-Yi-O-Ty-Ay!!

[arms]

It's not about what I do Armsy, it's about what someone else might. I'm very concerned that some impressionable young DIYer might come on here and actually listen to you and race off and make a hash of something because Armsy says you don't need to follow the directions. It's OK mate, Armsy says they're only covering their butts, we don't need to do all that! We can fly and be free! Yee hah!! Yippy-Yi-O-Ty-Ay!!


and this comes from a man ( i can only assume ) that lives in a stretch of forest somewhere between merrimbula and pambula ,:o :o :o

[bitingmidge]

and this comes from a man ( i can only assume ) that lives in a stretch of forest somewhere between merrimbula and pambula ,:o :o :o

Coming from a bloke who lives near Ipswich, that's a big call Tom!

After not actually providing real examples of the things you said, ie, save 50% of costs by ignoring manufacturer's instructions,you should have been happy that Cliff showed you picture evidence that some tradesmen do actually as the recommendations suggest. You might even have learned something after questioning me as to why the walls failed all those years ago, but no, now you're trying to distract us from the topic with Geography?

(There's only one "r" in Merimbula by the way):wink:

Not to worry, one thing about hanging round here is that we can have a robust debate and still be mates eh! Feel like a nice game of monopoly?

Cheers,
P
:D :D :D

[Cliff Rogers]

and this comes from a man ( i can only assume ) that lives in a ....
Who cares where he lives, play the ball, not the man. :((

[silentC]

and this comes from a man ( i can only assume ) that lives in a stretch of forest somewhere between merrimbula and pambula
Yes, definitely a male of the species last time I checked. But thanks for raising it because you never can be certain about the people you are talking to on the Internet can you?

Yes, I live in a stetch of forest, but not where Google told you, I'm afraid. I don't have the lat. and long. of my house, so I used the ones of the AWS at the Merimbula airport. But it's near enough for you and me, right? Don't need to get too fussy with these things, do we?

But mate, seriously, why don't you put your money where your mouth is and gives us the skinny on how to save 33%* on the next wet area job. I mean, if we don't waterproof the whole wall, that will save us a few bucks but what else can we do the Armsy way and save?

* See, I'm paying attention. You said it would cost another 50% to do it the manufacturer's way, so that means that we are saving a third of the cost by doing it yours.

[scooter]

OK, it's been fun & all, the original poster is lying in the foetal postion & even the bystanders are wandering off.

Genuine discussion - open a new thread - but please leave the niggle here.


' Night..............cheers...............Sean