Concrete Driveway - Sealing

[Tubby2]

Hi guys, I had my driveway poured 2 weeks ago, a colour thru oxide concrete and from the first day I noticed a couple of white patches have come thru. We have a broomed finish and the patches look like the concretor has dipped the broom in a watered down white paint and done a couple of lines. They start from the middle of the driveway and get fainter closer to the edge.

I have spoken to a couple of people about this. The original concretor offers no explaination for it and just says to colour seal it and it will be fine....of course it will, me covering up your dodgey work!..... I spoke to a couple of places that sells sealer and they recommend just putting clear sealer on it (which I had planned to do) and that will 'disolve' the white lines. Some one else descriped it as flouresence coming thru or salt from the sand coming up and to clean it with a light acid wash.
I bought some Hydrochloric acid diluted it and tried scrubbing the lines. The white pateches did not dissapear but I did start to notice the concrete starting to wash away and the aggregate coming through. I gave the acid idea away then.

I was told the clear sealer would make the driveway look the same as when its wet. Unfortunately when the driveway is wet the lines are still very much visable, not as much when dry, but still stick out like dogs balls.

Can anyone offer any solutions or will I have to colour seal it.
The olny problem I have with colour sealing is that firstly I have already bought the clear sealer and secondly putting a colour sealer on defeats the purpose of spending $600 on coloured oxide.

Any ideas?

Cheers

[dazzler]

Is it lime discolouration coming through similar to when you have new bricks laid :?

[Tubby2]

Not sure what it is, I do know that it doesn't come off with hydrochloric acid:U


I'll take a photo or two, Not sure if that will help at all but it cant hurt.

Cheers

[dazzler]

Photos good.

Tonight a concreter or brickie should be online so check back.

Maybe give it a few more weeks to completely dry and then see how it is. :?

best of luck

[Black Ned]

Whatever the problem - the tradesman should be made to fix it. He should have insurance to cover his work. Once you get involved with you own methods and try and fix it you are on your own. think carefully before attempting any more fix ups yourself.

[Bleedin Thumb]

It doesn't sound like salts to me because salt should scrub off when new - dont know who told you to give a coloured concrete slab an acid wash!:oo:

.. if the batching plant is real close to your home maybe it wasn't mixed well enough.. or did they add anything to the concrete to make it go off slower or quicker?

[Pulse]

http://www.dectech.com.au/PDF_Files/ColThru_guide.pdf
(http://www.dectech.com.au/PDF_Files/ColThru_guide.pdf)

They say an acid wash is OK, It surprised me too. Sounds like laitance then?


Cheers
Pulse

[patty]

so the oxide was mixed into the concrete when poured? Was it mixed prior to delivery? or was it "thrown on" and trowled in? I guess only being 2 weeks old it was not a hot day most likely windy? did they wet the area that is dis-colured to prevent it going off prior to finishing? If you have hit it with acid and it has come off it to me and I am no expert, but have done alot of concreting, is that the oxide has not bonded into the concrete surface when finishing, possibly because it was too dry , and you thinking it is someting else like salt leaching through to the surface, have basically bleached the surface with the acid removing the colour even further...

Now that you have tried to fix this with the acid I dont like your chances of "coming back at the concretor" and arguing the point about the initial poor work...

The sealer coat will definitley help with the overall colour appearance but with the area that you have taken back to exposed agg the oxide will have to be re-mixed and applied over the existing cement possibly through a spray on application and tried to blend as best as possible then finish with a colour seal over it... Just dont be too heavy handed with the sealer as I have seen some Diy Jobs that are absolutley terrible put on too much and you get this what i call " turtle shell finish on top" looks very crazed"

good luck

[Tubby2]

so the oxide was mixed into the concrete when poured? Was it mixed prior to delivery? or was it "thrown on" and trowled in? I guess only being 2 weeks old it was not a hot day most likely windy? did they wet the area that is dis-colured to prevent it going off prior to finishing? If you have hit it with acid and it has come off it to me and I am no expert, but have done alot of concreting, is that the oxide has not bonded into the concrete surface when finishing, possibly because it was too dry , and you thinking it is someting else like salt leaching through to the surface, have basically bleached the surface with the acid removing the colour even further...

Now that you have tried to fix this with the acid I dont like your chances of "coming back at the concretor" and arguing the point about the initial poor work..."

good luck

The oxide was mixed at the plant which is about 20mins away. Your right it was a friggin freezin day and no they didnt wet the area before putting the concrete down.
I was told to give the drive a 'light acid wash' by 2 people. The first was from CCS the people that supply the oxide and the other was from the guy at "Sydney Wholesale Concrete Supplies" or something like that at Wetherill Park.
The aggregate is only just coming thru and if you didnt get down on your knee's you would know about it. I stopped cleaning as soon as I saw it.

Photo's attached below

[MrFixIt]

Hi

After seeing those photos there is NO way that is salt or leaching or ANYTHING else other than poor workmanship. The colouring put on the top of the concrete has been "brushed" away and/or made MUCH to thin.

The guys doing the work SHOULD have been able to see the problem WHEN it occurred and they should have fixed it THEN.

It is unlikely that you will be able to "repair" this, AFAIK there is nothing other than completely PAINTING the driveway that can hide/remove the light marks.

Either the concretor has to redo the driveway OR at least pay (materials AND labour) to have the driveway painted. If the driveway IS painted, this means you will have to repaint it very few years to keep it looking good.

[Bleedin Thumb]

Yes I agree with Mr fix it as far as not salt, but I don't know if the problem is with the concretor or the concrete supplier.

If its the later I bet there is a disclaimer that says any additives that are requested by the client are not guaranteed etc etc..

The concretor will blame the concrete and oxide and the concrete supplier will blame the concretor or the oxide manufacturer which leaves you up a certain creek.

If you can't live with it.... I recon it will fade into insignificance within 2 years... try Nutech paints. I think there paving paint is guaranteed for 10 years.

Sorry I can't see you getting a result from the concretor...unfair as it may seem, unless you want to spend big bucks on lawyers.

[Tubby2]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I'll wet the driveway again and take another look at it to see if the clear sealer would lessen the mark (as I was told clear sealer looks similar to the concrete being wet). If all else fails colour sealer it is.



The colouring put on the top of the concrete has been "brushed" away and/or made MUCH to thin.

The oxide was not put on top after the pour, it was put in the mix at the concrete plant and was mixed in on the 20min drive to site. Apparently 20mins is more then enough to mix in the oxide.

The concretor did offer to seal it for me if I provide the sealer. I may just take him up on that.

[patty]

Now that i have seen the pictures it does look as though he has used a broom maybe with a light coat or residue of cement on the bottom of the bristles as everyone has said it certainly

[patty]

Now that i have seen the pictures it does look as though he has used a broom maybe with a light coat or dried residue of cement on the bottom of the bristles or maybe even the broom being too wet when finishing and it has taken that section of colour away on brooming it off...

Mate if he has offered to apply the seal coat let him go ahead and do it ask him does he think it will hide the imperfection in the slab before e applies it just to get an answer? And if it does not ask him how he is going to fix it throw it back on him!

[Bleedin Thumb]

I think Patty may be on the money there. It has something to do with the broom finish it would seem, maybe you do have a good case against the concretor.

[Tubby2]

Now that i have seen the pictures it does look as though he has used a broom maybe with a light coat or dried residue of cement on the bottom of the bristles or maybe even the broom being too wet when finishing and it has taken that section of colour away on brooming it off...

Mate if he has offered to apply the seal coat let him go ahead and do it ask him does he think it will hide the imperfection in the slab before e applies it just to get an answer? And if it does not ask him how he is going to fix it throw it back on him!

Roger that!

The funny thing is that these lines were done after the concretor had broomed finished more than half the driveway. He started on the left side and it wasn't until he got to the right side that the lines appeared. I would have thought that any residue would have come off first.
The amount of comments I have had here does convience me that I am not just a picky bastard and that everybody here thinks that the work is not up to scratch. It is clearly something to do with the finishing off and not the actual concrete or oxide so I will be taking the advice of you all and 'put it back on the concretor'.

I did project manage the job myself in as far as I organised the excavation, delivery of the concrete and mesh. I would think that would have no bearing in the fact that the concretor made a mistake.

I would still like to find out what the cause was and so I did phone Boral (the concrete supplier) , emailed them the photo's and they could not tell me what has happend and I also phoned CCS, the people that supplied Boral with the oxide and they are sending a rep around to check it out.

I'll post up the outcome.

Thanks for all your help guys

[MrFixIt]

Hi


The oxide was not put on top after the pour, it was put in the mix at the concrete plant and was mixed in on the 20min drive to site. Apparently 20mins is more then enough to mix in the oxide.

If THAT IS the case, then you should have colour ALL THE WAY THROUGH! Therefore you SHOULD have been able to clean off the light colour if it WAS something from the concretors broom.

However IF this was the case then the concretor SHOULD HAVE SEEN the light colour he "created" and as I said before he should have been able to fix it ON THE SPOT!

Can you be REALLY SURE that there was no application of oxide on the top surface?

If the broom did have some light cement/concrete on it, then WHERE did that LIGHT colour come from if the concrete was PREMIXED all the way through with the chosen colour? There is something not right here!

Anyway, if it is (though I think it unlikely) light coloured cement from the broom then it should wear away over time, or perhaps with a little assistance - though (based on the images) I don't see that happening.

[Tubby2]

If THAT IS the case, then you should have colour ALL THE WAY THROUGH! Therefore you SHOULD have been able to clean off the light colour if it WAS something from the concretors broom.

Agree, but as I said when I tried cleaning it off the concrete came off and exposed the aggregate. It'd be nice to be able to get the marks off without the aggregate being exposed.



However IF this was the case then the concretor SHOULD HAVE SEEN the light colour he "created" and as I said before he should have been able to fix it ON THE SPOT!

Agreed. I was there and I didnt see much of a mark when the broom finish was applied, it didnt really start to show up until it dried a bit but you would have thought with his '40 years experience' in the game he would have noticed any slight imperfections.




Can you be REALLY SURE that there was no application of oxide on the top surface?

Yep I can be. I was helping them shovel the concrete around when the truck was there. There was no oxide on site whatsoever except the stuff already in the mix.




If the broom did have some light cement/concrete on it, then WHERE did that LIGHT colour come from if the concrete was PREMIXED all the way through with the chosen colour? There is something not right here!

Anyway, if it is (though I think it unlikely) light coloured cement from the broom then it should wear away over time, or perhaps with a little assistance - though (based on the images) I don't see that happening.


There is something not right here.......mmmm..... right again!
The immediate area surrounding the drive is nothing but mud, no concrete, no sand, no white coloured stuff, just water and dirt nothing for the broom to be covered in.

I'm starting to think that the mix might not have been mixed thru enough and the mark is a small amount of grey concrete that has been smeared along. I'll wait and see what the CCS guy says.

Thanks again for you help

[MrFixIt]

I'm starting to think that the mix might not have been mixed thru enough and the mark is a small amount of grey concrete that has been smeared along. I'll wait and see what the CCS guy says.

That's what I thought yesterday. I rang my brother, a construction manager for a Perth Building Co. He said the only thing that he thought it could be was a "gluggy" mix, ie a little to dry and therefore the colour in the mix was NOT competely through the concrete.

Pesonally, if it was me, I would have SOMEBODY take responsibility for this. Either the concrete co for not getting the mix right, OR the concretor for not noticing/fixing the problem THERE AND THEN.

You would think that a 40years experience guy would SEE this colour problem at the time. It could have been rectified (or at least improved) if the concrete was still "wet" enough to mix with a shovel and re-screed.

My guess is though, that the mix has "gone off" too quick to fix it.

I don't see why YOU should be "lumbered" with the job of fixing it!

This...


I have spoken to a couple of people about this. The original concretor offers no explaination for it and just says to colour seal it and it will be fine

from the concretor is a sign of a problem! Why on earth should you PAY for coloured concrete THEN have to BUY COLOURED sealer.

I would contact the concrete supply co and have them check the job. Advise them that it requires REPLACING at THEIR COST or as an alternative, they refund you ALL the money you paid out for the concrete (and probably the labour or a portion of it) and THEN you could buy the coloured sealer.

Don't forget, "the squeaky wheel get the grease" so make a lot of noise about this until you get a result :2tsup:

[Burnsy]

That's what I thought yesterday. I rang my brother, a construction manager for a Perth Building Co. He said the only thing that he thought it could be was a "gluggy" mix, ie a little to dry and therefore the colour in the mix was NOT competely through the concrete.

Pesonally, if it was me, I would have SOMEBODY take responsibility for this. Either the concrete co for not getting the mix right, OR the concretor for not noticing/fixing the problem THERE AND THEN.

You would think that a 40years experience guy would SEE this colour problem at the time. It could have been rectified (or at least improved) if the concrete was still "wet" enough to mix with a shovel and re-screed.


I would think the blame lies with the suppier not the concretor but agree with Bleedin Thumb that most suppliers will not accept liability for concrete that has had colour put in it.

In all fairness I do not believe you can blame the concretor for this unless he has been the one that has caused the contamination. Concrete always changes colour as it dries and it would have been very easy to overlook this as colour change due to drying.

By all means be the squeaky wheel but as someone who has sat in front of the small claims tribunal with an unhappy client, take it from me that it needs to be black and white for you to win and pardon the pun but that looks and sounds very grey:wink:

[Tubby2]

Well after a few site meetings the general concensus is that the concretor has broomed the concrete too early. Apparently this is why the white lines appear.
I had the rep and the manager from CCS (Colour Concreting Systems) out, these are the people that supplied Boral with the coloured oxide.
So I'll be ringing the concretor to see what he is willing to do about. Apparently to colour match the sealer will cost about $350.

So moral of the story, If you get a dark oxide concrete make sure the concretor knows what he is doing.

The manager from CCS actually knew the concretor that did my job and said he's been doing it for that long he should have known better.

[pawnhead]

general concensus Not till you get the consensus of the concreter.
Sounds like the beginnings of a 'pass the buck' episode to me. :-

[Terrian]

Well after a few site meetings the general concensus is that the concretor has broomed the concrete too early. Apparently this is why the white lines appear.
I had the rep and the manager from CCS (Colour Concreting Systems) out, these are the people that supplied Boral with the coloured oxide.
So I'll be ringing the concretor to see what he is willing to do about. Apparently to colour match the sealer will cost about $350.

So moral of the story, If you get a dark oxide concrete make sure the concretor knows what he is doing.

The manager from CCS actually knew the concretor that did my job and said he's been doing it for that long he should have known better.

I would be getting that in writing from the CSS people, if they are not prepared to put it in writing then it is worth nothing, and the concretor will just throw the blame back at the supplier...