Stolen Generation

[Rossluck]

That this is a fairly contentious issue, I accept. Today I heard on ABC radio news that a section of the public protested when school children here in Queensland were taught something of the history of the "stolen generation" episode. (For overseas members: this was a period in our history when Aboriginal children were taken from their parents in the weird expectation that they would, well, become whitefellas, while their doomed black parents faded into the evolutionary past)

This illustrates very accurately the way national histories are "constructed" to present an ideal context for the present. I found it annoying that there are people who think that this episode should be hidden from our children. No wonder the indigenous people in this country are at such a low ebb.

From my point of view: we did it, we own it.

[ozwinner]

Here is a cartoon that appeared in the Melbourne Age last Saturday.
I kept it because it is so apt.

Al :(

[Black Ned]

About 10 years ago we visited the Apsley Gorge (Falls) near Walcha NSW. There was a huge information board erected telling of a massacre of aboriginals being herded over the cliffs. No such board exists today. No reference or information about this event is on websites. Brochures on the town do not mention any of this.
Seems like it might be embarrassment.

[bitingmidge]

[B]This illustrates very accurately the way national histories are "constructed" to present an ideal context for the present. I found it annoying that there are people who think that this episode should be hidden from our children.
And did we learn anything about the aboriginal history, or for that matter anything of Asia, or heaven forbid Germany in good old British Empirical post-war Oz?

Do the seppoes learn anything of anyone?

History is there to be discovered by those who are interested, the teaching of it has always been a mere vehicle for propoganda. A bit like reading a newspaper really....


From my point of view: we did it, we own it.
As long as we own all the other injustices you did and continue to do, then go for it.

I for one had nothing to do with it. I don't deny it happened. I question whether the motivation was exactly as you state or whether there wasn't at least a sniff of something more noble behind it all, however ill conceived it certainly was.

It doesn't mean that I'm not sympathetic, saddened or any other emotion you can count, but I'm saddened by the maltreatment of lots of other people as well, and I didn't do them either!

Cheers,

P
:cool:

[dazzler]

Hi Ross

Bit more info would be helpful.
Was it factual, was it unbiased, was it a guilt trip. :?

Were all sides of the story going to be presented :?

Got to remember these are impressionable kids were talking about who believe most of what adults tell them, as well intentioned as it may be.

[Gra]

Being devils advocate here....

Would the children have been taken if they were white kids...

From the stories I have heard mostly yes. If a white women was unmarried and living in "povety" (How that povety was caused is another argument) then the child would be likely to be taken.

Now it was enforced more rigorously with the aboriginal people, but it also happened to white children as well, in the same manner.

I tend to lean towards the fact that yes there were injustices done, but there were injustices done to all people in the name of the law, my mother waws almost taken by "welfare" a couple of times while my gandfather was working at the sawmills in the same era. Now he was employed, sober and they had a house. (Yes they were allowed to own a house, though they couldnt afford to, they were renting)

sorry lost my train of thought, but you get my drift.

[Jedo_03]

who's to say there isn't another stolen generation in the making with the fallout from the recently commenced investigations into the abuse of aboriginal children...
Abusing kids is wrong...
What's going to happen to those kids who test "positive"...
God forbid they'll be separated from their communities and families (or that their communities and families will be separated from them...)
That would be so wrong...
Which begs the question...
Do two wrongs make a right...
Jedo

[Sturdee]

This illustrates very accurately the way national histories are "constructed" to present an ideal context for the present.

Nothing new in that, from the earliest recollection of mankind national histories are written and then rewritten from a biased viewpoint.

Also racial genocide has existed since early times, tribes conquered other tribes and then killed the males and took the women as wives and with time the previous tribes disappeared.This is still going on in many parts of the world.

As to the wrongs done to the aboriginal people following the English settlement I'm sure there are many, but to paraphrase the words of Gough Whitlam " It's time to move on "and worry about rectifying the conditions they live in now.

As to the continuing saga of telling us to say sorry, they should demand it of the British Government and not the Australian people for most Aussies weren't there when the atrocities happened.

Peter.

[johnc]

I feel it is very important to acknowledge both the wrongs and the rights of the past, to ensure we do not repeat the worst but improve on the better. The local tribe where I live was rounded into the fork of a river and massacred, the few survivors apparently received shelter at a mission only to have flour laced with arsenic and blankets with smallpox delivered which served to wipe out the remainder.

Should we say sorry? I see little reason to get bogged down on that point, rather we should acknowledge the cruelties of the past and get on with finding some way of improving the present. I for one feel sorrow for those events and the evils perpetrated, and believe they should be taught in our history along with the ANZAC spirit and the more recent immigrant history that shows the structure of our society and the fact we have managed to live without major civil wars, famine and political and economic disaster. Other than those economic shifts brought on us by world events such as the great depression.

The PM refusing to offer an apology for the sins of the countries past is on shaky ground. It has been done in other parts of the world as a way to commence a reconciliation with the original inhabitants for the errors of the past.

John

[pawnhead]

We're not "constructing" history. As bitingmidge stated "History (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_generation) is there (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Australian_Aboriginal_massacres) to be discovered by those who are interested, the teaching of it has always been a mere vehicle for propoganda (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,22055456-1702,00.html)".
If having 8 year old schoolkids sing reconciliation "Sorry" songs isn't propaganda then I don't know what is. What have they got to be sorry for?

"It's time" to stop sulking about the past and focus on the problems of today. Whether the stolen generation forms part of a schools curiculum is entirely up to the school concerned, and people are allowed to protest against whatever they want. If there's enough of them then they may get there way, but there's no cover up going on here.

If we were talking about re-writing history and brainwashing kids with false information it would be a different matter.


About 10 years ago we visited the Apsley Gorge (Falls) near Walcha NSW. There was a huge information board erected telling of a massacre of aboriginals being herded over the cliffs. No such board exists today. No reference or information about this event is on websites. Brochures on the town do not mention any of this.
Seems like it might be embarrassment.There are a few vague references on the web about this massacre.
Who put the sign up and who took it down?
What is the history of this massacre, where's the evidence of a cover up, and why would you put it in town brochures even if it was well documented?
I'm not denying past atrocities against the Aboriginal people, and I'd have no interest in covering them up, because I've got nothing to be sorry for. And neither has our present Government.

[Sebastiaan56]

For those interested check out the podcast from the Adelaide Festival of Ideas titled "Indigenous Futures" Here is the url http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/ I believe that we need to listen more than talk when it comes to indigineous issues.

Years ago I did a weekend workshop with an elder from Fitzroy Crossing in Northern NSW. This man was intense, proud and very very smart. At one stage some local people came to formally welcome him to their land. They were rude, drunken and in two cases on bail. Their entreaty to us whities was to help this man get his land back, rudely, belligerantly. He had moved on, they hadnt. At that time I had just employed a vietnamese man whose wife had worked three jobs to raise the bribes necessary to get him out of jail in Vietman for protesting the war. He was physically broken but still one of the most kind and gentle men I have ever met. He was just happy to be alive.

We all have stuff to get over black, white, brindle. Only we can get over it. It can only happen at our own pace. An apology is a powerful healing statement and costs nothing.

Sebastiaan

[Zed]

at the risk of being controversial :

it happened. get over it. Move on, stop being part of the victim mentality and get with the program re the solution!!!!

U dont see people like Peris Kneebone, Mundine, Namitajira, Gooloagong and Mal Meninga bitching about how rooted it was, nor did it stop them from achiveing high results in thier fields. But of course its fair easier to bitch and moan how crap it was, ask for a perpetual handout, have a little drinkie poo til you cant move and complain about the evil white person... (Note i say person to not appear sexist)...

We run the risk of turning this great brown land into a place that has institutionalised refugee probs (look at palestine for instance) if this keeps up. STEP UP AND ACHIEVE!!!

I was taught that modern day humans (Including indigenious Aussies) are genetically SIMILAR to those humans who lived 40,000 yrs ago... In fact David Rabbitborough said if you took a baby from them and transplanted it here it would assimilate just like us, however it may not be as tall or as pretty as me. So saying indiginious Aussies "cant get used to the modern world" it stands to reason, is, in fact, inaccurate. Again I say STAND UP AND ACHIEVE!!!

Im not sorry, but im sorry it happened - at least it was SUPPOSED to be done to HELP (I think)!!!!!! That the fullness of time has shown that it didnt, in many cases is, irrelevant, unfortunately. Many things were done in the past and will be done again that are supposed to be benevolent but probably in the fullness of time arent/ weren't / wont be.

I AM sorry that my taxes support a rooted support system!!!

if u dont agree with me fair enough, but then, so what ?:U

[Iain]

When I was at Uni we had an Aboriginal sociologist who told us that indigenous Australians did not like drinking but it was forced upon them by white men.
I argued that in the mid 60's when I was in WA we had what was called the blackfellas act (I cannot quote the act but it was known to all as this) which strictly prohited the sale and consumption of alcohol by Aboriginals.
I received a counselling session from the head honcho.:((

[dazzler]

Zed for PM :2tsup:

[HappyHammer]

Being devils advocate here....

Would the children have been taken if they were white kids...

From the stories I have heard mostly yes. If a white women was unmarried and living in "povety" (How that povety was caused is another argument) then the child would be likely to be taken.

Now it was enforced more rigorously with the aboriginal people, but it also happened to white children as well, in the same manner.

I tend to lean towards the fact that yes there were injustices done, but there were injustices done to all people in the name of the law, my mother waws almost taken by "welfare" a couple of times while my gandfather was working at the sawmills in the same era. Now he was employed, sober and they had a house. (Yes they were allowed to own a house, though they couldnt afford to, they were renting)

sorry lost my train of thought, but you get my drift.
I think you'll find the removals were justified by a change in the law that enabled authorities to remove children, I don't believe the legislation applied to whites.


As to the continuing saga of telling us to say sorry, they should demand it of the British Government and not the Australian people for most Aussies weren't there when the atrocities happened.
Not sure there are any poms left who were either:q

HH.

[HappyHammer]

About 10 years ago we visited the Apsley Gorge (Falls) near Walcha NSW. There was a huge information board erected telling of a massacre of aboriginals being herded over the cliffs. No such board exists today. No reference or information about this event is on websites. Brochures on the town do not mention any of this.
Seems like it might be embarrassment.
I have a vague recollection that the sign was removed due to locals agreeing to move on rather than cover up. I think it was having a negative impact on the perception of current residents of the town who had nothing to do with it.

HH.

[HappyHammer]

..... and why would you put it in town brochures even if it was well documented?
Got to agree there I wouldn't be promoting it if I lived there like I won't promote the fact that Lantana was first introduced in the town where I live....:doh:

HH.

[munruben]

I think we have to move on and not dwell on the past, bad things happened all over the world. White children were sent to Australia from orphanages in England. Some of these children were placed in the orphanages temporarily by their parents.
The government of the day decided to send these children over to Australia and these young children were placed in homes and properties throughout Australia and treated poorly and many abused by the so called religious do gooders. Parents back in the old country couldn't find out what happened to their kids.They were just sent out here regardless if they wanted to or not and many of these children never saw their parents again.
Of course we are sorry the lost generation ever happened and it shouldn't have happened but it did along with a lot of other atrocities in the world. But we don't live in that era now, we are in the 21st century. We cannot change what happened and we should not forget our past history but lets move on and strive to build a better world for all our children, black or white.

[billbeee]

Good on you John, I agree entirely.

What are we rabbiting on about the stolen generation for, again and again. The kids rightly or wrongly were removed from their parents for reasons that at the time seemed logical. It was felt that children of mixed race would be stigamatised and even abused (sound familiar) if left in their communities.

Put the thing in perspective. Tragic as it was for many individuals, get over it!

It happened just after the Holocaust. It preceded the killing fields in Cambodia.

Who's asking Al Kaida to say sorry? Move on, life's too short. Address the real issues.

Bill.

[corbs]

Hindsight is always 20/20, how much of what we are doing today will be regarded in a similar way in 50-100 years. We can learn from the past but we cannot change it.

Corbs

[Rossluck]

It's not a matter of blame or remcriminations or wandering around feeling bad about what our predecessors might have done. I for one like to think that I would have behaved differently, but I'm not sure ....

For me it's about history, and getting it right, and presenting the whole picture rather than an attenuated and glorified version. While we shouldn't go around wringing our hands in despair because we've discovered some skeletons in the closet, we also shouldn't plunge our heads into the sand and loudly deny that these things happened (like some of the contributors to this thread have done).

This is because the indigenous people in this nation need these things to be acknowldeged by the white population so that they can find some closure. Maybe then they can rediscover their rich culture and build some self esteem and so on.

[HappyHammer]

Ross,

I don't want to get into an argument, just clarify, are you suggesting an apology from the government will make any significant difference to the issues being reported at the moment in a few indigenous communities?

HH.

[silentC]

This is because the indigenous people in this nation need these things to be acknowledged by the white population so that they can find some closure.
I'm afraid I have a quite cynical view on that. I don't think that our "acknowledgement" would make any difference. I think that formal acknowledgement of a bad policy came about when it was revoked anyway.

Usually when we acknowledge these things, it opens an avenue for somebody to take advantage. An example of that is the acknowledgement of 'sacred sites'. We had a few discoveries made locally of middens and canoe trees, so the land was turned over to the local tribe, who almost broke their necks in the rush to get the real estate agents in. That's how much they needed closure - we acknowledge that it belongs to them because of their sacred attachment to the site and they promptly sell it.

I'm not knocking it, they're just working the system, who can blame them. I just keep that in mind when one of the local elders writes to the paper about how the whitey is stuffing up the area in pursuit of the mighty dollar. A bit of context is helpful.

As for whether kids should be taught about it, I don't see an issue with it, as long as the context is in terms of how Australia has since attempted to right the wrongs. Our past governments have done a lot of wrong, either in the mistaken belief that they were helping, or the even more mistaken belief that we had the right to do what we want to 'savages'.

I'm happy for my kids to know about it, so long as it's not from the point of view that we need to do anything about it. Feel sympathetic but not responsible.

[Rossluck]

Ross,

I don't want to get into an argument, just clarify, are you suggesting an apology from the government will make any significant difference to the issues being reported at the moment in a few indigenous communities?

HH.


I've always had doubts about the apology thing. I'm not sure that a "demanded" apology is really of much use to anyone.

The problem as I see it with the indigenous communities is a disconnection with their own rich culture, and similarly a lack of appreciation by whites in this country of how rich and complex a society and culture the indigenous people had before we arrived.

I think that the best way to resolve these issues is to teach our children (black and white) an accurate version of history, and an appreciation of the indigenous culture. I'm happy enough with the way Howard is handling the problems at the moment.

[Sturdee]

The problem as I see it with the indigenous communities is a disconnection with their own rich culture, and similarly a lack of appreciation by whites in this country of how rich and complex a society and culture the indigenous people had before we arrived.


I may be wrong but I doubt if the various indigenous tribes and peoples had a very rich culture before the British settled in this country. Note the term British and not "whites" for any blame what may have happened because of settlement belongs to the British not whites in general.

As far as I'm aware there was not one group of people but many different tribes, each having different customs, languages and practices. Although neighbouring groups had contacts with each other, the people from say Arnhem land and Tasmania would not be able to speak to each other and had different customs etc. Very similar to the various tribes in Africa.

The trouble we have now is that there are descendants of these indigenous people who have been working at the business of being "Aboriginal" because it is a gravy ride for many at the expense of our collective conscience.

Examples that come to mind are :

The Aboriginal flag, the concept of a flag was not known to aboriginals, now some local aboriginals are demanding that our Council flies this flag on all council buildings.

The so called sacred sites, their eating garbage dumps also called middens are now considered sacred and is supposed to give them rights over other people. No doubt in future our tips will become sacred sites as well.

Their so called sacred fires in the botanical gardens during the Commonwealth games, giving them an excuse to camp in the gardens.

The millions of dollars given to uneconomic projects just because it was approved by ATSIC.

The clamour by them, for them not to be subject to the same laws and punishment as other citizens.

No doubt there are many more if we think about it, so their claim to need our "Sorry" statement for them to have closure is IMO utter rubbish.

Let them get over it and start living like all other citizens in this country and work for the good of themselves and our commonwealth.


Peter.

[Gra]

I may be wrong but I doubt if the various indigenous tribes and peoples had a very rich culture before the British settled in this country. Note the term British and not "whites" for any blame what may have happened because of settlement belongs to the British not whites in general.

Oy, Peter, not all of hte British had a choice..... Some of my rellos certainly didnt:U :U

[Sturdee]

Oy, Peter, not all of hte British had a choice..... Some of my rellos certainly didnt:U :U

I stand corrected, its the responsibility of the United Kingdom government, as the settlements were their colonies, even though some settlers came against their will.:D


Peter.

[Lignum]

Their so called sacred fires in the botanical gardens during the Commonwealth games, giving them an excuse to camp in the gardens.



And the same city council who paid out tens of thousands of dollars to move them on and clean up after them, have just given the same group $10.000 to stage a photo exhibition of that illegal event:?

[Edit - I just heard before it was over $300.000 to move them on, then give them back the $10.000]

[Groggy]

And the same city council who paid out tens of thousands of dollars to move them on and clean up after them, have just given the same group $10.000 to stage a photo exhibition of that illegal event:?:surprise:
:screwy::protest:

That's $10 innit? (please say yes)

[Lignum]

And here in Mordi the State Gov is widening the bridge over the Mordi creek. It cuts through 2 sq mt of "sacred site" on the side of the creek. That is to add an estimated 3 months and $500.000 to the project.:(

[Lignum]

:surprise:
:screwy::protest:

That's $10 innit? (please say yes)

Thats $310.000 of rate payers money:oo:

[pawnhead]

While we shouldn't go around wringing our hands in despair because we've discovered some skeletons in the closet, we also shouldn't plunge our heads into the sand and loudly deny that these things happened (like some of the contributors to this thread have done). .That's a strawman argument. I don't see anyone in this thread denying anything.
You might want our govt. to shout sorry from a rooftop, but how's that going to help the Aboriginals, unless of course it aids them in some sort of compo claim.

It's the 21st century, and they are afforded all the rights and priveliges that this country has to offer, and in a lot of cases, more priveliges than any non-Aboriginal. Certainly their current situation has a lot to do with the clash of cultures, and we do have a responsibility to aid them in whatever way we can. That's not an easy endeavour though.

Buckets of money and truckloads of appologies won't stop them getting drunk and mistreating their own wives and children though. Of course that's not an analogy of all Aboriginals, but it's undeniable that there are many Aboriginals who don't want to take responsibility for their own actions, whilst they want all other Australians to take responsibility for the actions of our forebears.

If they want to revive their rich cultural history, then they have every opportunuity to do so, and to be proud of it. If they want to dwell on past injustices, then they have every opportunity to do so, and every right to protest about it.

But it's time to bury the hatchet. If they want to live and succeed in 21st century, multicultural Australia, then they have every opportunuity to do so. Or to not do so, if they so choose.

And that is exactly what the problem is, as I see it. They could do everything, but they don't have to do anything.

[Rossluck]

As for whether kids should be taught about it, I don't see an issue with it, as long as the context is in terms of how Australia has since attempted to right the wrongs. Our past governments have done a lot of wrong, either in the mistaken belief that they were helping, or the even more mistaken belief that we had the right to do what we want to 'savages'.

I'm happy for my kids to know about it, so long as it's not from the point of view that we need to do anything about it. Feel sympathetic but not responsible.

Thanks Silent. One thing I've noticed about writing contentious stuff in this forum is that people quite often don't actually read what you've written and, then run a strong argument against what they think you're saying.

My initial statement was more or less along the lines of what you've said. I'm not asking for "sorry" or self flagellation or anything. I just like the idea of representations of history being relatively accurate, and not fairy stories that gloss over the bad bits.

We are righting a lot of the wrongs of the past in this country, and we can do this by acknowledging that they happened. This is where history is at it's most useful: learning from the past how to improve the present.

If you read any anthropological text books on Australia's indigenous people before the arrival of Europeans, it completely changes your view of them. Anthropologists see them as contemporaries, with a complex, rich, and extremely valuable culture and heritage. What worries me is that after 200 years of exposure to our culture, they've lost touch with, and respect for, their own. :(