How many of you have "mirror finish" tables...

[TomH]

Evening all,

I'm well impressed with the advice on the forum about finishing various bits and pieces. It seems we are all striving for a mirror finish. I was interested to know how many of you have actually used this finish on tables, compared to those who are satisfied with 3-4 coats and happy to have a bit of grain showing through. The reason for my question......

I'm in the process of finishing a coffee table. I've only ever used poly finishes before on big stuff (brush on, so not that good) or shellac + wax for small boxes. After some research I decided to use a combination of oil & EEE. I chose organoil danish oil as it was easier to buy compared to rustins. I am using recycled spotted gum.

I'm fairly satisfied with the organoil product - smells great, easy to put on and I can see the shine will be there with a bit of buffing. However, despite wet sanding a couple of coats I am still struggling to fill the grain. See photos. My process has been as follows:

1. Various grades of ROS up to 400 grit (then very worn 400 grit).
2. Brush on danish oil. Wait an hour, rub of excess then keep on checking every hour until no more seeps out grain (usually a couple of hours). Leave 24 hours.
3. Apply more danish oil. Wet sand using wet & dry (used wrong grade, 1200). Wait one hour then rub off etc etc. Wait 24 hours.
4. Apply another coat. This time use 800 w&d. Sand the table top hard for say 10-15 mins to attempt to build up a slurry. Minimal slurry present. Oil was soaking in, so left it and wiped off excess after one hour. Quick buff after a couple of hours with rag.

I note that various people have suggested 7-8 coats. However, on the back of the danish oil it clearly states "use 2 coats ONLY", so I was relucatant to use many more.

I have a few questions:

1. How many of you have the perfect mirror finish? Do you think it matters that a bit of the grain is showing?
2. Should I keep on going with the more coats and sanding - will this fill the grain? My process after I am happy is to use a lambswool buffer on the drill to shine the finish, then apply EEE and use a swansdown mop on the drill again to shine it up.

After spending a long time making it I'm not keen on stuffing it up in the last 5%, so your advice would be appreciated.

[ozwinner]

4 coats of shellac brushed on with a 100mm brush, rubbed down with Tradition wax and steel wool.

Cheap, easy, and suits my style. :2tsup:

Al :)

[martrix]

Evening all,

I'm well impressed with the advice on the forum about finishing various bits and pieces. It seems we are all striving for a mirror finish. I was interested to know how many of you have actually used this finish on tables, compared to those who are satisfied with 3-4 coats and happy to have a bit of grain showing through. The reason for my question......

I'm in the process of finishing a coffee table. I've only ever used poly finishes before on big stuff (brush on, so not that good) or shellac + wax for small boxes. After some research I decided to use a combination of oil & EEE. I chose organoil danish oil as it was easier to buy compared to rustins. I am using recycled spotted gum.

I'm fairly satisfied with the organoil product - smells great, easy to put on and I can see the shine will be there with a bit of buffing. However, despite wet sanding a couple of coats I am still struggling to fill the grain. See photos. My process has been as follows:

1. Various grades of ROS up to 400 grit (then very worn 400 grit).
2. Brush on danish oil. Wait an hour, rub of excess then keep on checking every hour until no more seeps out grain (usually a couple of hours). Leave 24 hours.
3. Apply more danish oil. Wet sand using wet & dry (used wrong grade, 1200). Wait one hour then rub off etc etc. Wait 24 hours.
4. Apply another coat. This time use 800 w&d. Sand the table top hard for say 10-15 mins to attempt to build up a slurry. Minimal slurry present. Oil was soaking in, so left it and wiped off excess after one hour. Quick buff after a couple of hours with rag.

I note that various people have suggested 7-8 coats. However, on the back of the danish oil it clearly states "use 2 coats ONLY", so I was relucatant to use many more.

I have a few questions:

1. How many of you have the perfect mirror finish? Do you think it matters that a bit of the grain is showing?
2. Should I keep on going with the more coats and sanding - will this fill the grain? My process after I am happy is to use a lambswool buffer on the drill to shine the finish, then apply EEE and use a swansdown mop on the drill again to shine it up.

After spending a long time making it I'm not keen on stuffing it up in the last 5%, so your advice would be appreciated.

I have done the mirror finish a few times using Mirotone 2-pac Poly and wouldn't attempt it with anything else as its the only finish that will successfully hold the polished surface over the years. The coffee table below was done around 2.5 years ago and pretty much still looks as good as the day I finished it. Its a lot of work though with filling the grain(many coats and rubbing back) and final compounding and polishing.

Just my opinion but I wouldn't bother trying to get a high sheen/gloss with Danish oil or Organoil as it would be unlikely to last anyway. Standard finish for me now is 3 coats of DO and if I want some extra gloss, a few coats of Minwax wipe on poly.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=6531

[Lignum]

Tom your problem is you are using danish oil and its crap. Dosnt matter how many coats and your effort, you wont get a flawless gloss finish.

Use Wattyl (only wattyl) Scandinavial oil and flood the top and wait half an hour to soak and flood it again, then wet sand it going through the grits from 400# up to 2000# or 4000#
Very Important NOT to wipe off excess inbetween grits as the slurry is the important part (also acts as a grain filler) Wait only a few minutes before moving to the next grit. And when you put a new grit on the ROS wet the paper before you start to sand. When you get up to the higher grits there isnt as much oil left and you will be buffing with friction/heat from the disc. After the highest grit you can buff with a clean soft rag or go one step further and use EEE and one of them swansong mops to polish to mirror finish.

Best part is it dosnt take long and dirty dusty conditions wont effect the final finish. I have seen tops done over 3 months ago and they still have there depth and shine like they were just done. And the best bit if it gets dammaged its just a simple matter of another coat of oil and a 2000 or 4000# and bingo, back to perfect.

This is a brilliant method of finishing shown to me by a former member of this forum, and in all the years of trying to come up with a simple method that is nearly perfect, this is the best method by far i have used, and will only be doing furniture this way in the future. :)

Forgot to add, im at an advatage as im ROSing with the worlds greatest ever finishing sander, the 150/3:wink:

[Lignum]

Also on a side note, the best way i have come across to compare and check the quality of your finishing is to have an incandescent (clear not pearl) light bulb above and look into the finished board to see how crisp the zig-zag of the filament is.

Its this way you will notice a massive difference between the various finishes and how well you have applied them. When you think you have a great finish do this and you might be surprised at how cloudy and flawed the finish is. Its funny how that simple light bulb makes you try harder to get it right.:)

[Harry72]

A good result can be achieved with single pack poly, just use a good brand poly (cabot's carbothane)and a decent spray gun.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v725/ST170ish/woodwork/3d0ec954.jpg

BTW, thats only finish sanded to 220g!

[JeffG.]

Lignum's advice on the finish is very interesting, similar to a french polish method I have done but using pumice to build the slurry.

For a mirror finish on a desk or table that will see some abuse I do different things depending on the final color I am after, but always the last coats are poly. In reading my post you have to keep in mind I did not own a HVLP gun until last week. I never wanted to spray because of the space requirement, but finally I broke down and bought one for laquer. Now I'm spraying everything but I still use a method similar to the following for all my 'high use' tops.

The desk below was done with 7 coats of General Finish Arm-R-Seal which is a wipe on oil/urethane. This was then sanded back to just above the wood surface and three full strength poly coats were applied with a brush. Then this was sanded back completely smooth finishing up with 320 grit.

Then I took the poly and cut it in half with mineral spirits. 5 coats were applied wiped on with pad made from wool wrapped in muslin. Steel wool was rubbed between each coat.

http://www.mindspear.com/woodworking/images/desk1.jpg

http://www.mindspear.com/woodworking/images/desk6.jpg

I did not buff this. After that much work you just want to put the thing together and go fishing for a week.

This finish is incredibly durable. This is my wife's desk, and she could tear up an anvil using a spoon. Yet today it still looks like the day I finished it.

[BobR]

TomH, Lignum is on the money with his suggestion. To add my two pence worth;

(then very worn 400 grit).

If this is to repalce a grit higher than 400, then forget it. Worn 400 is just that - worn 400. It will never do the work of a finer grit.

When I use Organoil products I usually sand up to 2000 before applying oil, then follow a process similar to that described by Lignum.

JeffG - love the desk and the finish :2tsup:

[rod1949]

I love mirror finishes and appreciate the work that has to go into them and dust control.

I've made and finished several tables, 2 of them being conference tables made from the timber of the Raintree. One table was for the Cabinet members of the Northern Territory government (comencement of Statehood) and the second was for Tammy Frasers Australiana collection (last I heard this table was to be used in Parliament (new) House.

For these tables I used the two-pack Estapol 7008. It took 15 coats (spraying and cutting back) before I achieved the blemish / dust free finish that I has happy with.

[TEEJAY]

I love mirror finishes and appreciate the work that has to go into them and dust control.

I've made and finished several tables, 2 of them being conference tables made from the timber of the Raintree. One table was for the Cabinet members of the Northern Territory government (comencement of Statehood) and the second was for Tammy Frasers Australiana collection (last I heard this table was to be used in Parliament (new) House.

For these tables I used the two-pack Estapol 7008. It took 15 coats (spraying and cutting back) before I achieved the blemish / dust free finish that I has happy with.


Hey Rod - any chance of posting photos?

[rod1949]

Hey Rod - any chance of posting photos?

Sorry TEEJAY it would be a bit complicated for a couple of reasons;-
1. the photos I have are Polaroids (remember that fad) and the quality isn't very good.
2. they're stacked away somewhere in storage whilst I'm building a new house.

[gabacus]

The desk below was done with 7 coats of General Finish Arm-R-Seal which is a wipe on oil/urethane. This was then sanded back to just above the wood surface and three full strength poly coats were applied with a brush. Then this was sanded back completely smooth finishing up with 320 grit.



Hey JeffG.

where did you pick up the "General Finish Arm-R-Seal"? I would love to get my hands on some!

Cheers,

gabacus

[dai sensei]

This is an old photo, and also taken quite a while after the table was finished. Don't look at the legs, they had std clear finish and the funny colours are mould (Darwin wet season) after a long holiday on which I bought the camera.

Anyway, the finish is Envirotech 2 part resin finish. Seal the timber with clear finish, then just pour it on, no sanding buffing or anything. It's been over 10 years and subject to 3 kids and still looks good.

http://www.dai-sensei.com/images/furniture/table2.jpg

[JeffG.]

Hey JeffG.

where did you pick up the "General Finish Arm-R-Seal"? I would love to get my hands on some!

Cheers,

gabacus

http://www.generalfinishes.com/

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=10928

You could make it. It might take some experimentation but well worth it. I bought a large amount or I probably would have tried it by now.

I tried spraying it a couple of times so far with less the optimum results. I'm giving it another try today. Thats the problem with getting a stupid gun. You try to spray everything. I'd spray the neighbors cat if I could slow him down long enough to step on his tail.

[Iain]

Forgot to add, im at an advatage as im ROSing with the worlds greatest ever finishing sander, the 150/3:wink:

I assume that you are in rotary and not ROS mode for the finish, I also use a 150 and use it for polishing and buffing, I have also used a buff and applied Shellawax to cabinets with success.
Before when I had a ROS only this was not possible, although the el cheapo GMC will spin up for you.

[gabacus]

http://www.generalfinishes.com/

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=10928

You could make it. It might take some experimentation but well worth it. I bought a large amount or I probably would have tried it by now.

I tried spraying it a couple of times so far with less the optimum results. I'm giving it another try today. Thats the problem with getting a stupid gun. You try to spray everything. I'd spray the neighbors cat if I could slow him down long enough to step on his tail.

Thanks for that JeffG. Unfortunately, I dont think there is any way to get this stuff to Australia :(( I would like to think I could make my own mix but not prepared to go there at this time. Im still new to woodworking so I am focusing more on the building rather than the finishing... from what I have heard about this product I would not have had to think much about it :U oh well...

Good luck catching that cat. Maybe you should dress up your spray gun as a bird...

[JeffG.]

I understand :U

If you get bored and want to give it a try I would probably go

1 Part- boiled linseed oil
1 Part- gloss urethane
1 Part- mineral spirits or naptha, whatever is hanging around.

You want to put in the last part carefully, you don't want that to be too thin. Getting a good pad goes a long ways to getting it applied correctly.

[BrettC]

Use Wattyl (only wattyl) Scandinavial oil and flood the top and wait half an hour to soak and flood it again, then wet sand it going through the grits from 400# up to 2000# or 4000#

Hey Lignum - was in the local Bunnies the other day and had a look for some Wattyl Scandinavian Oil thinking that I'll have a little play with your 'recipe'. I found Wattyl Scandinavian Oil - Teak Oil - Is that the same stuff you use??

[Colin Howkins]

This may be a bit out of left field.


Sand timber down to about 1200 grit
Apply enough coats of polyurethane sanded back between each coat to about 600 untill all depressions and grain is filled with the coating.
Leave if for about 4-6 weeks to harden up
Buff with a very fine cut automotive cutting compound
Buff up with good quality automotive polish The finish may not be true mirror finish, but it is very easy to bring back to a very high lustre - just more car polish

Colin Howkins
Graceville Qld:2tsup:

[JCCLARK]

I think nothing is easier to get a mirror finish with than lacquer.
I can finish an entire cabinet in a couple of hours, wait a couple
of days and rub out the top with some 2000 grit paper
followed with my car buffer. It's just to easy.:cool:

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f386/jcquack/Furniture/DSC03619.jpg

[waikune]

The secrete to a good 100% gloss finish is
1 A good sealer, then sanded
2 A good Top coat which has good film build
3 Then if required buff with buffing polish. Unles you have a spray booth then you will need to buff /sand 1200# to remove any fine dust that settles in drying.

The basic 3 options of spray coatings are NC Lacquer, Acid Cure (2 Pak) and Poluyrethane (2 Pak) Polyurethane is best as it provides best film build and gloss, and harder surface and excellent resistance to heat and chemicals unlike the others. There are importers in Melbourne who sell Polyurethane from IEurope regarded as the best.

Empradoor in Melbouren who paint all those High Gloss doors use Polyurethane and buff if required.

Hope this helps

[woodchisel]

Hi JCCLARK,

That's the way I like it, a degree in chemistry and dabbling in alchemy is not needed. If a decent mirror finish can be achieved without great fuss, and with an off the sheve product, just great.
I would be interested what type of product you use, 1 pack, 2 pack etc.

Cheers, woodchisel

[JCCLARK]

I use a local paint stores trade name lacquer.
I don't know who it's really made by, but the one in
the picture is just std furniture lacquer, not pre-cat.
A friend of mine just finished some cabinets with a
automotive urethane clear coat. That's an easier way to
get a rubbed out glossy finish and its a tougher finish.
It is expensive though.:cool:

[RichardL]

I have done the mirror finish a few times using Mirotone 2-pac Poly and wouldn't attempt it with anything else as its the only finish that will successfully hold the polished surface over the years. The coffee table below was done around 2.5 years ago and pretty much still looks as good as the day I finished it. Its a lot of work though with filling the grain(many coats and rubbing back) and final compounding and polishing.

Just my opinion but I wouldn't bother trying to get a high sheen/gloss with Danish oil or Organoil as it would be unlikely to last anyway. Standard finish for me now is 3 coats of DO and if I want some extra gloss, a few coats of Minwax wipe on poly.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=6531

Hi Matrix

love your tables, especially the top one. Are they of your own design? What is the timber? Is the inlay solid or veneer? What is the grey panel - it looks very smart.

[Jeff@G]

http://www.generalfinishes.com/

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=10928

You could make it. It might take some experimentation but well worth it. I bought a large amount or I probably would have tried it by now.

I tried spraying it a couple of times so far with less the optimum results. I'm giving it another try today. Thats the problem with getting a stupid gun. You try to spray everything. I'd spray the neighbors cat if I could slow him down long enough to step on his tail.
Whats the best finish to use on a cat?
I'd love to seal mine...
The little buggers fur floats into every form of finish I try.

[JCCLARK]

Shave him bald!!!!:D

[Iain]

Docking the tail works, about 1/4" behind the ears.
Our Corgi has a similar affiction, one good shake and there is hair floating around for the next week.

[LGS]

I'd suggest "Fur Seal", but leave the bark attached.

Seriously, how do you end up with cat fur all over the piece. Are you finishing in its basket or does it live in the shed?

[martrix]

Hi Matrix

love your tables, especially the top one. Are they of your own design? What is the timber? Is the inlay solid or veneer? What is the grey panel - it looks very smart.

Hi Richard, yes they are my own designs. I like the coffee table the most. The only thing I would change on that would be to use square stainless steel instead of round in the 10mm reveal between the top and the table frame. I think at the time I used round stainless because that was all I could find.

The hall table is a little chunky IMHO.

The timber used is Redgum with Tas oak burl veneer inlay on the hall table and solid curly Vic Ash on the coffee table.

The 'grey' panels in the coffee table are 6mm sandblasted glass which the back is then sprayed with a silver automotive lacquer.

cheers for the comments.:wink:

[BobL]

Hi Matrix

love your tables, especially the top one. Are they of your own design? What is the timber? Is the inlay solid or veneer? What is the grey panel - it looks very smart.

Richard, having seen a couple of Martix's tables in the flesh they look every bit as good (maybe more) than the pictures, cool design and real nice use of materials.

RE using car polish.
I did this once by a kind of accident. I have to admit is worked (nice hard shiny surface) but you really need to keep any silicone type out of your shed as it really stuffs up otehr finishes.

[RichardL]

Hi Richard, yes they are my own designs. I like the coffee table the most. The only thing I would change on that would be to use square stainless steel instead of round in the 10mm reveal between the top and the table frame. I think at the time I used round stainless because that was all I could find.

The hall table is a little chunky IMHO.

The timber used is Redgum with Tas oak burl veneer inlay on the hall table and solid curly Vic Ash on the coffee table.

The 'grey' panels in the coffee table are 6mm sandblasted glass which the back is then sprayed with a silver automotive lacquer.

cheers for the comments.:wink:

Hi Matrix
thanks. Cool use of different materials. I think the curly Ash also looks great. I wonderd if it was curly maple. In any case, I don't know if I can get either over here:no:

It is a bit hard to see the 'reveal' between the top and the frame. Is that just sitting in a routered channel between the 2?

[martrix]

Hi Matrix
thanks. Cool use of different materials. I think the curly Ash also looks great. I wonderd if it was curly maple. In any case, I don't know if I can get either over here:no:



Don't let living in NZ stop you from getting nice figured timber. I'm sure you have some cool native timbers there if you look hard enough. Probably also have a few Eucs.

You can get almost anything these days from anywhere and delivered to anywhere. To me its pretty much a global community now. The only difficulty's being with non-english speaking countries, only because my Mandarin, Spanish, Italian etc aint much chop.:doh: :U

Very easy to get nice wood from the U.S. through Ebay.com (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/www.ebay.com). You will have to check NZ customs/quarantine requirements though.



It is a bit hard to see the 'reveal' between the top and the frame. Is that just sitting in a routered channel between the 2?

Its actually just a rebate created by a build-up of timber strips over the entire frame that the top sits on. No routing. Clear as mud?:C :-

[jez]

Tom your problem is you are using danish oil and its crap. Dosnt matter how many coats and your effort, you wont get a flawless gloss finish.

Use Wattyl (only wattyl) Scandinavial oil and flood the top and wait half an hour to soak and flood it again, then wet sand it going through the grits from 400# up to 2000# or 4000#
Very Important NOT to wipe off excess inbetween grits as the slurry is the important part (also acts as a grain filler) Wait only a few minutes before moving to the next grit. And when you put a new grit on the ROS wet the paper before you start to sand. When you get up to the higher grits there isnt as much oil left and you will be buffing with friction/heat from the disc. After the highest grit you can buff with a clean soft rag or go one step further and use EEE and one of them swansong mops to polish to mirror finish.

Best part is it dosnt take long and dirty dusty conditions wont effect the final finish. I have seen tops done over 3 months ago and they still have there depth and shine like they were just done. And the best bit if it gets dammaged its just a simple matter of another coat of oil and a 2000 or 4000# and bingo, back to perfect.

This is a brilliant method of finishing shown to me by a former member of this forum, and in all the years of trying to come up with a simple method that is nearly perfect, this is the best method by far i have used, and will only be doing furniture this way in the future. :)

Forgot to add, im at an advatage as im ROSing with the worlds greatest ever finishing sander, the 150/3:wink:
Lignum (?)

Would you mind saying what the "worlds greatest finishing sander" is? I'm not sure what the 150/3 is?

Thanks

Jez

PS This is my first 'post', did I get it right?

[Groggy]

Lignum (?)

Would you mind saying what the "worlds greatest finishing sander" is? I'm not sure what the 150/3 is?

Thanks

Jez

PS This is my first 'post', did I get it right?The 150/3 (http://www.idealtools.com.au/category3412_1.htm) can be seen here.

PS - post is fine :wink: