Taboo subject on this forum? (Electrical queries)

[chrisp]

I'm amazed at the level of concern and fear that questions on electrical matters raise on this forum (or is it everywhere?). I work with electricity every day and while I consider electricity to be dangerous and treat it with a great deal of respect, I often feel that the forum tends to overreact to electrical questions. I get the impression from some of the replies to electrical questions that we must be dropping like flies due to the number of electrocutions:o. It raises an interesting question, what is the risk of dying due to electric shock? Just how great is the risk of dying from electrical shock and how does the risk compare to other activities? I’ve been search the web trying to find some useful and dependable data on this matter. This is your chance of dying from various causes:
Smoking 950 deaths per million per year
Road accident 82 deaths per million per year
Opioid related 31.3 deaths per million per year
Electrical (Australia) 1.8 deaths per million per year
Asteroid impact 1 death per million per year
Airplane crash 1 death per million per year
Electrical (UK) 0.5 death per million per year
I know there are members who are genuinely concerned about electrical advice, and they are free to provide, or withhold, advice as they see fit.

My view this that we should be able to openly discuss electrical matters and learn from the discussions. I think that the more we know on electrical matters the better we will be at understanding the dangers and the risks – and the better we will be at avoiding them.

My understanding is that doing your own non-fixed wiring is legal in Australia. (I’m happy to stand corrected if I’m wrong.) Therefore, why can’t we ask and discuss how to repair a (non-fixed wired) appliance?

BTW, I didn’t look up chainsaw deaths. I suspect that most of us accept that chainsaws are dangerous when used by the untrained or unknowledgeable. But I’m pleased that we are willing to discuss them and allow others (like me) to learn something about the danger of chainsaws. I don’t expect, or assume, that the discussion in the forum are going to tell me all there is to know about the dangers of chainsaws – but at least I’m aware of dangers that I might have been oblivious to before. This is why I like, and value, this forum.

At the moment I don't think I'd be allowed, or encouraged, to tell people how to use a multimeter to do some basic electrical tests; or how to wire up a extension cord; or how to replace a 3-pin plug; how to identify different types of motors; without someone accusing me of setting out to kill someone:~, or someone else stating "call an electrician" and then stating that they know nothing about electricity:?.

I think we could all benefit from open discussion of electrical matters - just as we do from non-electrical matters.

What do you think?

Chris

[ian]

I'm amazed at the level of concern and fear that questions on electrical matters raise on this forum (or is it everywhere?). I work with electricity every day and while I consider electricity to be dangerous and treat it with a great deal of respect, I often feel that the forum tends to overreact to electrical questions. I get the impression from some of the replies to electrical questions that we must be dropping like flies due to the number of electrocutions:o.

I know there are members who are genuinely concerned about electrical advice, and they are free to provide or without advice as they see fit.

My view this that we should be able to openly discuss electrical matters and learn from the discussions. I think that the more we know on electrical matters the better we will be at understanding the dangers and the risks – and the better we will be at avoiding them.

My understanding is that doing your own non-fixed wiring is legal in Australia. (I’m happy to stand corrected if I’m wrong.) Therefore, why can’t we ask and discuss how to repair a (non-fixed wired) appliance?

At the moment I don't think I'd be allowed, or encouraged, to tell people how to use a multimeter to do some basic electrical tests; or how to wire up a extension cord; or how to replace a 3-pin plug; how to identify different types of motors; without someone accusing me of setting out to kill someone:~, or someone else stating "call an electrician" and then stating that they know nothing about electricity:?.

I think we could all benefit from open discussion of electrical matters - just as we do from non-electrical matters.Chris

as I understand matters in NSW

there is legislation (or a Government regulation) stating that tap washers can only be changed by a licienced plumber, but the washers are freely available in Bunnings
there is legislation (or a Government regulation) stating that electrical work can only be done by a licienced electrician
there is some debate as to whether laying electrical conduit is "electrical" work or not — one view is that an electician has to lay the conduit, another is the electrician only has to supervise laying of the conduit. The reason has something to do with the radius of curvature where the conduit changes direction
but what I find most "amusing" is that there's two levels of electrical licience
the guys work on high voltage equipment are not allowed to touch low voltage wiring and vice versa (low to high I can understand, but the prohibition on high to low I find hard to fathom)yes I agree we would all benefit from some sensible discussion, but I can also understand the sparkie reluctance to become involved in other people's problems

perhaps we could discuss situations on the basis of what's wrong with this ... without specifically saying how to fix the problem


ian

[Ironwood]

I would probably benifit from such a discussion, but, I would be surprised if too many people (who would be qualified to give the advise) would be willing to post information and advise, that has the potential (if they make a mistake, or dont follow or understand the instructions properly) to kill someone.

There is a reason why it takes a 4 year apprenticeship to do a trade.

The old saying "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" would be very appropriate when it comes to electrical matters.

[silentC]

Electrical matters is a bit of an umbrella term. If you're referring to the discussion on electric motors in power tools elsewhere recently, then that falls into the "yes it's legal but mess with it at your own risk" basket. People giving advice on stuff like that do so at their own discretion, as do people following it. Like making your own tablesaw or jumping out of an aeroplane. No-one can stop you if that's what you want to do.

If you're talking about domestic wiring that is legal (apparently replacing a plug on a vacumm cleaner is OK but hard wiring your stove to the mains is not, and neither is replacing a powerpoint), then there's nothing to stop you giving advice, or following it, as long as you accept the risk. If you give advice then you should think about your obligation (legally or morally) when someone follows it. The person following it may not be the person who asked for it. This is a public forum.

If you're talking about domestic wiring that is not legally undertaken by a licensed person, then people should technically not give advice because the person asking for it is breaking the law. This is covered by the forum rules. I think liability and so on is a grey area and I for one would prefer not to go there - not that I'm qualified to give advice any way - but that is my opinion.

I'm not a sparky but I know which wires go where on a powerpoint and can understand lighting circuits. I'm not qualified to give advice on how to do it so I never would. You can look it up in a book if you really want to. I think the most sensible thing to do in those cases is to advise them to get a sparky. If a sparky wants to give advice to people here on a public forum, then that's his problem. Whenever I see someone asking how to add a new powerpoint, or mess with his lights, I will always say "get a sparky", regardless of how many times people complain about it. If it makes one person stop and think and maybe not do something dumb, then it's worth it.

It's up to you whether you give advice or not, Chris. I can't stop you. Neither can I make it a taboo subject. You simply have to live with my opinion on it, just as I have to live with yours :)

[dazzler]

Oh no, here we go again :D

[DavidG]

Quite simply.

If I say anything and someone gets hurt then I may be liable as it could be taken as professional advice.

If you need to ask, then get a pro.

It applies to all cases where liability can effect the situation.

[sundancewfs]

I find it interesting that people are so concerned about elctricity. Knowledge isn't dangerous, actions are. I'm assuming we all know not to get toast out of a toaster with a fork.......As far as legality goes, yes working on electrical circuits is illegal unless you are qualified, so get a sparky to do it for you... But if you don't know anything about the subject how are you supposed to know what to ask the qualified professional to do???

[Pulse]

Good post Chris,

The adage "a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing" is true.

...and is exactly the reason we all come to the forum, to share ideas and advice on things where we don't know all the answers.

It is stupid having to get a sparky to replace a powerpoint when the switch breaks, or replacing a light switch, or putting in a few downlights. Most people on this forum are DIYers and have probably committed most of these crimes.

I'd personally welcome a more open discussion of electrical stuff.

Cheers
Pulse

[q9]

The electrical industry is a protected industry. To be able to legally unplug and replug an internal motor into a washing machine you need a restricted electrical licence. Basically a licence that tells you Green/Yellow is earth, Black is neutral, and Red is active (and bites), and that metal conducts electricity.

But you can only get that restricted electrical licence if you already do that kind of work under an electrician. The ESB don't want just anyone getting that REL. I know, I've tried.

I don't find much about electricity hard or dangerous, having worked with electricians a fair bit. Funnily enough, some of the electricians I worked with would routinely work with live wires rather than throw the switch and "inconvenience" the customer.

Anyhow, it is probably the threat of litigation that keeps it taboo, which is a shame. I'd rather see people that are probably going to do it themselves anyway, have access to all the correct information. But there you go.:shutup2:

[Burnsy]

It is stupid having to get a sparky to replace a powerpoint when the switch breaks, or replacing a light switch, or putting in a few downlights. Most people on this forum are DIYers and have probably committed most of these crimes.


As someone who would sheepishly raise his hand when asked this it made me think about a section I had a giggle at in Scott Cam's book Home Maintenance for Knuckleheads (strange gift to be given - me a knucklehead:? )

Chapter Six - Electrical
"I'm not going to beat around the bush here. 240 volts can kill you. So get a sparky. Treat every wire you find as live - in other words, there are 240 volts running through it. Even if you think the powere could not possibly be on, treat it as if it is. This chapter is tiny, and for good reason. The knucklehead has virtually nothing in common with 240 volts. So if you have an electrical problem, call a sparky!"

I reckon there is good reason for that chapter and it all boils down to the increasingly litigeous society in which we live. As someone who was bitterly disappointed when another forum I subscribed to was shut down because of someone taking offence to something that another said I think it is best to be safe than sorry. I for one would hate to loose this great forum because someone got hurt because they misinterpreted advice or did something they shouldn't have. Having said that though it is a fine line, it is just as easy to hurt yourself using a home made chainsaw mill that you saw online.

[Ramps]

I agree Chris

As To silentc's suggestion of look it up in a book ... why not read it here in stead? :p

I cringe at some of the suggestions about modifying the cutting edge of power tools too but you're allowed to put your ideas forward. Those extensions for router bits still worry me but they're ok cos they're legal as are ANY modifications that you can possibly think of for a chainsaw :o ... hmm

That's my 2c worth ... all I can say is I'm with you Chris :2tsup:

[Wood Borer]

I think the Electrical Industry and Authorities are not particularly interested in safety but more concerned about their jobs.

They do not allow people outside their industry to sit for practical and theory exams.

I would study and sit their exams but because I don't wish to be a gopher (apprentice) for some sparky on minimal wages I am not permitted to gain a ticket.

I fail to see how having practical jokes played on me, purchasing lunch for some loud mouthed ignorant sparky and footing a ladder for four years in between doing a little bit of theory at trade school gives me the background to sit their exams. It sounds to me like a comfortable little arrangement to get very labour under the pretence of "on the job training".

I have both tertiary and trade qualifications in electronics and electrical work but the electrical authorities treat me the same as they treat anyone else outside their industry - threats, doom and gloom.

Like I have said before, I have trained hundreds of qualified sparkies and their knowledge of fundamantal electrical theory is virtually non existent. They know their regulations though.

I reckon I am smart enough to study their regulations and do the theory and practical exams, why don't they let me? If I'm not up to scratch then I would bomb out.

If safety was their prime concern then allowing people to gain their qualifications/ticket would be encouraged.

It is difficult to respect the electrical authorities when they take this stance so I will judge them by their actions.

[Wild Dingo]

Strange subject... but still never one to shy away from strange subjects I'll stick me foot in :;

Me? Im absofrigginlutely terrified of electricity... Im aslo severely colorblind... I rely on notations and other people for color things... electrical wiring is something I learnt many years ago that is a thing I personally should never touch... and dont.

Lucky for me... one of the future son in laws is a mature aged sparky apprentice :2tsup: however unlucky for him hes already done a DEGREE in lighting which is more indepth and more electrical intensive than the sparky trade qualifications hes now going for... but because its a degree outside of the electrical industry to get his ticket as an sparky he has to do the apprenticeship... thus meaning hes studied for 4 years at Uni to get his degree and now has to do the 4 year apprenticeship... given 12 months off for "prior learning" ala his degree :roll: however in another 2 years he will be a qualified lighting tech AND a qualified sparkie which is a good thing :2tsup:

One of the other future son in laws is a bush bunny who having lived on a remote farm all his life and as such had to do for themselves in all things... mechanics plumbing etc along with electricals his view is do it yourself... and he has wired his shed up himself sourcing all the stuff needed from electrical distributors and other places like bunnings.. and has no fear that its done "properly"... and to be honest its a good job from what I can see but I am not an sparkies earhole Ben is and he shivers and shudders whenever he goes into Daniels shed.. no bare wires or anything like that Ben just knows the cable is running just beyond that thin METAL rail and over the ones up the roof to the overhead lights... Bens problem is he knows TOO much and is concerned Dans problem is he knows to little and isnt concerned my problem is I dont know shyte about the stuff and everything about it scares the bejeezus outta me

No thats wrong... I just wont wire something up or attempt to do so although I have over the years changed plugs on extension leads

There are something where the old saying "life is just too damned short" really makes sence to me... electricals is one of them

God made some people mechanics... if you want to play with greese oil and muck become one
God made some people plumbers... if you want to play in shyte become one
God made some people electricians... if you want to play with extreme energy become one
God made some people colorblind... if you want to becoem an electrician... get your head belted with a sledge hammer and get over it PAY someone to do it.

But by all means have a long yarn about it... but make sure what your tellin people is ACURATE!! gawd help some poor fella that takes your word for something and you leave something out and they die because that little bit of info could have been that one thing that would have made the difference... just be REALLY SURE thats all.

[ozwinner]

Our son is in his final year at Uni studying Electrical Engineering.

He has already been told he cant touch any hard wired electrical stuff at all.:oo:

And yet he will be qualified to design the layout of power stations, sub stations, etc.etc. :?

So I think Rob is right about a closed shop as the boy would, and does know, more than any sparkie Ive ever met.

Al :)

[Fox3]

While there are indeed people that should not ever even consider messing with electricity this strikes me as protectionist BS.

I have no electrical license (I don't know the regs beyond those that are just common sense and a few more) but I have studied extensively and have the fear of God about the potential for NASTY things to happen. Seen it and rather than scaring me away from it what it did was to make me learn what to do / not to do and if in ANY doubt I will get an electrician (on this side of the pond :) - sparky to you).

240VAC is the most I am willing to mess with and I am VERY circumspect and I ALWAYS keep one hand in my pocket (don't ask how I learned that one :D ).

People who need something now WILL mess with it. People who can't afford a sparky WILL mess with it.

Leaving them ignorant will get someone killed or maimed (I really hate that word :) ).

Regulation by paid off pols for the "protection" of the masses and "safety" has already reached disgusting proportions. How long before we need a license to breathe?

Safety IS INDEED an issue here but common sense and education can take care of that problem.

There will always be some idiot doing something really stupid and no amount of protectionism for the minuscule percentage of those is ultimately going to make a damn bit of difference.

Educate the masses and make sure that information is available with the appropriate warnings. Fools will be fools no matter what we do or don't do. Crippling everyone for the sake of the idiots and fools is just so wrong. Real sparkies get killed and maimed too...

Also, on the edit, I just wanted to add that electricity at the end of an extension cord, the motor to a power tool, light bulb or anywhere else is no less dangerous than it is anywhere else.

[silentC]

See, again it turns into a debate about whether the laws are appropriate or not.

I've got a modern car that's capable of doing 200kmph - just. It has safety features and I know how to drive it, so why can't I drive at 200kmph everywhere? Why do I have to drive at 90kmph on the straight between Pambula and Merimbula? It used to be 100kmph but someone decided it was dangerous, so now it's 90. It doesn't mean I'm not capable of handling a car at 100kmph, but I can argue that point till I'm blue in the face (a bit like this topic) and Mr Plod will still book me for 10k over.

The question that is being raised is not whether or not people with no qualifications, or people with qualifications but not the right ones, should be allowed to do electrical work; it's whether, given the current situation, people should be asking for or giving advice on it.

I really can't comprehend why people can't see that and keep getting sidetracked into the "I know what I'm doing but it's a closed shop so I'm not allowed to" debate. I don't know of too many posters who have ever disagreed with that. It's not the point. Regardless of how capable you believe you are or what qualificatins you think you have, doing your own wiring is illegal. Can we agree on that?

So that being the case, should you be asking for or giving advice to people on a public forum, that could be read by anyone with a computer and an internet connection. That's the question that is being asked. If you say yes, well, that's a matter for your conscience. I say no, but that's just my opinion.

The reason I keep getting involved in this debate is because of the reaction people have when someone is told to get a sparky. I believe, and will continue to believe, that this is the best advice you can give anyone who is scratching their head over a wiring issue that, by law, they should not be getting into at all.

What some of you need to do is stop looking at it from your own point of view and try thinking about it from the point of view of someone you know who is absolutely clueless but thinks they'll give it a go anyway and ask on a forum, or down at Bunnings. I know some people like that.

[sundancewfs]

Being an Australian and living in the USA its interesting as to the different general education that is given regarding electricity. Growing up in Australia we had it drummed into us to always turn the power point switch off before plugging or unplugging a device and that the electricity in the power point is dangerous and WILL kill you. In the USA having talked to quite a few people, it seems they are taught that it will give you a shock, oh and their standard 120v power points (outlets) don't have switches at all. I build my own tube (valve) amplifiers for guitars and am constantly working with voltages @ 350v aside (700 volts AC peak to peak). If you are aware (read, educated) as to the risks and how to deal with them, you should be safe. Ignorance is not bliss when it comes to electricity, as a comsumer/enduser or as an electrician or technician.

[Iain]

I am inclined to agree with most on over regulation, ye Gods, we now need a certificate to pull a beer in a pub (Responsible Serving of Alcohol, wehatever that means), pay someone who just had a win on the pokies (Responsible Service of Gambling), work in retail (Cert II-III-IV Retail, are you being served with authority), it has become a joke.
I have a Cert IV in workplace training and didn't even know I had it, when I became a warranted leader with Scouts, and Scouts Australia being a recognised provider, I became qualified.
Question is though, what do I do with it???

[silentC]

Question is though, what do I do with it???
You can teach at TAFE, amongst other things...

[bpj1968]

Thought I would add my 2 cents worth.

Why can't we ask for general advice on anything electrical. Even if someone is going to do something illegal, they will probably do it anyway, so we may in fact save their life.

Or the advice giving may help with the economics of repair vs replace. It will also help to have an understanding of what is involved ao if they do geta sparky they will have a better idea of the price.

"If you have to ask how to do something, then you shouldn't do it"
That is crap. We wouldn't have a forum.

If I was to ask "How do iI sharpen my chisel" , I am pretty sure that I wouldn't get a reply of get someone else to do it, likewise "How do i put a ____ finish on my last project"

most posts are either

How do I do .........
Which ......... should I coose E.g. tool purchase
Look what I've doen and how I did it.All of these have a common link of educatining ourselves or others.

Any advice I read on this forum I way up it's merits and make any decisions thoughtfully. Otherwise I would have a shed full of 10 different tablesaws, other tools I wouldn't know how to use, but was told I had to have Tons of timber I will never have time to use, no room to do it and no money.

I got onto this thread from http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=51308
which was someone asking about the logistics of bring 120v tools and converting when he moves here from the USA. Being told sorry no advice is the best advice is rubbish. When you read teh entire thread there was some good and some dubious advice, and it should be left up to the person asking to decide.
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[chrisp]

I think the Electrical Industry and Authorities are not particularly interested in safety but more concerned about their jobs.

They do not allow people outside their industry to sit for practical and theory exams.


one of the future son in laws is a mature aged sparky apprentice :2tsup: however unlucky for him hes already done a DEGREE in lighting which is more indepth and more electrical intensive than the sparky trade qualifications hes now going for... but because its a degree outside of the electrical industry to get his ticket as an sparky he has to do the apprenticeship...


Our son is in his final year at Uni studying Electrical Engineering.

He has already been told he cant touch any hard wired electrical stuff at all.:oo:

And yet he will be qualified to design the layout of power stations, sub stations, etc.etc. :?

So I think Rob is right about a closed shop as the boy would, and does know, more than any sparkie Ive ever met.

Al :)

This is part of the reason I started this thread. I too have a degree in electrical engineering (and more), I work as an electrical engineer, I head an electrical engineering department in a major research establishment. I know my electrical stuff quite well.

I know there is need for rules and regulations, but someone such as myself (see examples quoted above) cannot get any reasonable wiring license without doing a four year apprenticeship - even a restricted license that limits me to working only on my own property . I suspect some won't believe me and think I may have it wrong, but I've been in contact with the regulatory authorities and it is one prerequisite before another and the only way is the do a four year apprenticeship (and be employed as one) - regardless of prior qualifications.

I'm not saying "send me a license in the post", but I cannot see why I cannot sit whatever theory and practical exams that are required to prove competency without doing a four year apprenticeship.

Is the regulatory concern all about safety or maintaining a closed industry?

So, yes silentC, I think it wouldn't hurt to question whether the laws are appropriate or not. Not all laws and regulations are good or beyond question.

Chris

[silentC]

I think it wouldn't hurt to question whether the laws are appropriate or not. Not all laws and regulations are good or beyond question.
Question away, no-one will have any problem with you conducting that debate, least of all me. I'd love to be able to get a permit or whatever to do my own wiring.

Once again, the question you raised was whether we should give or take advice on electrical matters here. If it's legal, then go for it, I say. If it's not, well, I think we should avoid it. If I sound like a broken record, it's because I keep saying this and you keep coming back with the "not all laws and regulations are good or beyond question" line. I agree with you, but that is not what I'm arguing about. Are any of my points hitting home, or am I just wasting my breath?

[jmk89]

SilentC

I think that to some extent there is deafness to your point of view.

Australia has some of the tightest (ie most limiting) rules on who can do what in matters electrical and yet a much higher rate of death by electrocution. I think that this is a perverse consequence of the "refusal to talk/get a sparky approach".

In Australia, people approach electricity on a strangely dualistic basis. On the one hand they worry about how dangerous it is and then on the other they say that because we have tight rules and everything must have been done by a qualified electrician, it must all be safe and so they take silly risks with using it.

Electricity is like lots of other natural phenomena (eg the ocean) - it can be quite safe to enjoy and it can be quite dangerous. The best way to deal with these situations is not to say that they are off-limits, but to educate and discuss. Encourage people to swim between the flags and not go jumping into shallow water, but don't restrict swimming to qualified swimmers... Transferring this approach to electricity would mean that people will approach electricity with a balanced, alert, cautious respect, not the weird attitude that we have at the moment.

So the present arrangements are bad both in policy terms and in their failing to encourage compliance with the standards they are supposed to support. This is not helped by the fact that the present arrangements keep peope who are better qualified to do the work out of the system and supports a job creation scheme for less qualified operatives.

But even if we are not going to change these laws, we should try to change our attitude - I for one take the consumer activist approach: I want to know so that I can try to work out whether what the "professional" is telling me makes sense. I want to understand whether what I am being asked to spend money on is worthwhile or necessary or is just a way for the contractor to make more money. For that reason I want to ask other people what they think and this forum is a great place for discussing precisely these issues.


:rantoff:

[silentC]

OK, one last post on this, then I'm opting out of the discussion.

Scenario 1: Joe Blow decides he wants to put another light fitting in his garage. He pulls the cover off the existing light to see if he can patch in another cable. He sees a number of red and black wires, some terminating in the light fitting, some apparently in a loop. Not sure which ones he should tap into, he comes on the forum and asks the question. What he says indicates that he doesn't really have any idea of electrical wiring, beyond the fact that the black and red wires carry power and the green is earth.

The first observation to make is that he doesn't know what he is doing (hence he has to ask). The second is that what he is trying to do is illegal anyway. The third is that he does not know, and so cannot effectively convey, how the existing wiring is configured, or even if it has been done safely according to current standards.

This is the type of question I am talking about. If you try to tell him what to do, you are making the assumption that a) you have understood him; b) he has understood you; c) he gave you enough info to allow you to give the correct advice; and d) the existing wiring is safe. Aside from that, what you are encouraging him to do is illegal.

My advice to him: get an electrician.

Scenario 2: A sparky has been to your house to fit an earth leakage switch and told you that your house needs re-wiring to bring it up to code because of x. You come on the forum and say "is this true, is he ripping me off". I see nothing wrong with answering that.

Enjoy the rest of the debate :)

[Iain]

The first observation to make is that he doesn't know what he is doing (hence he has to ask).


This is the type of question I am talking about. If you try to tell him what to do, you are making the assumption that a) you have understood him; b) he has understood you.

That is pretty much it in a nutshell:2tsup:

[Frank&Earnest]

My apologies from flogging this dying horse, but I believe that all this discussion has been based on a false premise (or urban mith, if you like this expression) at least here in SA (can't vouch for Australia, is it a real Nation yet? :D )

Happy to stand corrected and apologise profusely if I am wrong, though.

Being a potential sinner myself, I wanted to make sure I knew the Commandments, so I sourced and perused the relevant legislation.

To my understanding, there is no prohibition for an unlicensed person to do fixed wiring work. The law states that it is the responsibility of the owner of the premises to ensure that the place is safe (penalty: $250,000) and this responsibility is assumed to be fulfilled by getting a qualified electrician to do the job and issue the required certificate.

Wich I dutifully did, having all the house and shed rewired and certified, therefore obtaining absolution from the sins of two generations...:D

Now, if you are willing to risk killing yourself or others (like a professional electrician has to be, anyway) but your electrical work is found to be up to standard, to my understanding you have not broken the law. You would still be at the mercy of the expert witnesses, though...

ETA: apart this qualification, silentC absolutely nailed it.

[silentC]

NSW: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/hba1989128/s14.html
ACT: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/act/num_act/ea199452o1994265/s9.html

[chrisp]

The first observation to make is that he doesn't know what he is doing (hence he has to ask). The second is that what he is trying to do is illegal anyway. The third is that he does not know, and so cannot effectively convey, how the existing wiring is configured, or even if it has been done safely according to current standards.

I haven't checked recently, but from memory the "call an electrician" comment also appears in response to questions that are not illegal - such as how do I check/repair my (non-fixed wired) appliance.

BTW, I don't think you are comparing apples with apples when you use the example of speed restrictions - statistics will support the argument that slower limits save lives:wink:

[Capt. Zero]

Perhaps this is not the best thread to reply to as my first post on this site; but as one who is from the US and a Texan to boot, I couldn't leave it be.
From what I gather the regs concerning electricity in Austrailia are considerately tougher than here in south tx and a lot of people here are do it yourselfers. Now, I understand and would never suggest it appropriate to advise someone to break the regulations of their local area, one has to consider the idiot factor.
People frequently prefer to ask someone for advice (which they may or may not listen to) than to research a topic carefully prior to attempting to do it. When applying this attitude to activities that take a certain amount of knowlege and care to prevent dangerous consequences suggests an ignorance of the basic life rules necessary for anyone who chooses to do things onself rather than hiring a professional.
That being said, basic wiring is as simple as basic plumbing and certainly less complicated than say building a rolltop desk. This type of question might well have a place here, but as with any post, I at least can never be certain if the questioner has enough basic knowlege to safely preform that which is being asked.
I can suggest a great hammer to get, but cannot prevent you from smashing your thumb.


"Shoes for Industry"
Rev. Dr. Emilio Swartz IV

[sundancewfs]

Here is something to ponder.... you can't legally do your own house/shed wiring etc... But are you allowed to fix your TV,Stereo,washing machine,toaster,fan,reading lamp? How bout changing the brushes in a grinder,router,drill (they come supplied with most tools these days as replacement parts) If you can legally do these things, why couldn't advise be given on these things? TV CRT tubes act like giant capacitors and can have voltages of 20,000 volts or more. Is it OK if its legal and obviously dangerous, but not OK if it is illegal?

[munruben]

If it's legal, then go for it, I say. If it's not, well, I think we should avoid it.
Exactly,surely we cannot condone giving out advice on this forum or any other forum for that matter, telling someone to break the law .If we do, then where do we draw the line, do we start giving out advice on how to handle explosives. I should imagine there would be experts on this subject too but I wouldn't expect them to start giving advice on how to do it just because someone wants to blow up that old tree stump in the back yard safely. Its illegal to do that.
Some of the arguments in this thread are valid ones but nevertheless, the law is the law and we have to abide by that fact. Maybe some of the rules should be changed and some of the simple electrical tasks could be undertaken by less qualified by issuing permits to those who can demonstrate their capabilities and prepared to take the necessary exams to qualify tocarry out this kind of work.
If we want to change the laws, then by all means lets try and get them changed but in the meantime, lets not break them.
It was mentioned in one of the posts that we allow non swimmers to go out in the water so should we ban that activity.Most non swimmers are supervised in the water or at least, there are usually plenty of swimmers around to keep an eye out for someone getting into trouble in the water.It would be great if the novice electrician could be supervised while undertaking his project.

[silentC]

... the "call an electrician" comment also appears in response to questions that are not illegal - such as how do I check/repair my (non-fixed wired) appliance.
In which case, it's at the discretion of the individual whether to offer advice on how to fix it, or to just suggest they take it to a rewinding service or whatever. "Take it to a repairer" is every bit as legitimate a piece of advice as "pull it apart and tweak the framistan".


BTW, I don't think you are comparing apples with apples when you use the example of speed restrictions - statistics will support the argument that slower limits save lives
If my argument was that the legislation was effective, then I would agree with you. However my argument is simply that the legislation is, and therefore we should abide by it, just like we should abide by the speed limit, despite our belief that we are all expert drivers :wink:

Unless F&E comes back with something that proves it is legal to do your own wiring, in which case I will shut my mouth on the subject.

[Wongo]

I own an electrician and I think everyone should own one too.:cool:

[NCArcher]

I own an electrician and I think everyone should own one too.:cool:
I can be bought. But i'm not cheap. :cool:

I am a qualified electrician and i will give advice if i think it is safe to give.
I wont give advice on how to carry out illegal wiring but i will clarify something in a quote if someone doesn't understand it or thinks they may be getting ripped off. I'll happily explan how something works or offer maintenance tips for electrical equipment.
I would rather someone asked the question here on the forum rather than just forge ahead and have a go. They are seeking advice and if the advice is "call a sparkie" they may do just that instead of electrocuting themselves.
As far as engineers getting licences goes well I don't have a problem with that as long as they can pass the tests, both theory and prac. To be honest i've only ever met a couple of engineers who could pass the prac. I've met many who were brilliant at design and theory but i wouldn't trust em to hammer in a nail let alone carry out wiring.

Just my 2 volts worth.

[Ramps]

Thank-you NCA
that is the sort of answer we're after
I do wonder if the higher rate of electrocutions here in Oz are due to the fact the DIY's can't get good advice anywhere? so they just have a go cos apart from not really wanting to pay $140 for a sparky to come and change one pp it would take 6 months to find one as they're all out building houses and can't be bothered to come by to change one or 2 pp's.

Also we're on the www here the operative part is "world" as a number of posters to this thread have proven. Is it not possible to state the it is illegal to do so in Aus or NSW etc but this is how it's supposed to be done (by a sparky in this case) as there are people who read this forum who ARE allowed to wire up there own home.

Would you not give advice on how to lay sheet iron on a roof because it's illegal in Vic for a non-roof-drainage-qualified plumber to do so (even though I could lay tiles on the roof ... talk about jobs for the boys!!). :doh:

Where to draw the line? why should we not be giving/gathering advice across the globe? ...

[silentC]

Is it not possible to state the it is illegal to do so in Aus or NSW etc but this is how it's supposed to be done (by a sparky in this case) as there are people who read this forum who ARE allowed to wire up there own home.
Are you suggesting that someone in America or the UK might benefit from advice on home wiring from someone in Australia? That really is stretching things a bit.

[Frank&Earnest]

NSW: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/hba1989128/s14.html
ACT: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/act/num_act/ea199452o1994265/s9.html

Thanks silentC. At first glance I thought that you had proved my dig at the Australian States, but on closer examination you proved my point about the urban mith. After further checking of the SA legislation and your links, I believe that you have misinterpreted the Act. You can not misrepresent yourself and charge for electrical work if you are not licensed, but it is not illegal to do electrical work for yourself.
The safety aspect, as I said before, is covered by the liability of the owner (in SA section 60 of the Electricity Act). This legal technicality aside, and notwithstanding, I still totally agree with your approach about giving advice in this forum.

[Ramps]

SC
That's pretty short sighted!
for those that are allowed (and by the sounds of the previous post that sounds like all of us) to do their own wiring might well benefit from the experience from those others that are allowed to do their own wiring.

Is this forum not for everyone who cares to contribute?

[silentC]

I believe that you have misinterpreted the Act
This is the relevant bit from the NSW HOME BUILDING ACT:


An individual must not do any electrical wiring work (whether or not it is also residential building work), except:

(a) as a qualified supervisor (being the holder of an endorsed contractor licence, or a supervisor certificate, authorising its holder to do that work), or

(b) as the holder of a tradesperson certificate authorising its holder to do that work under supervision, but only if the work is done under the supervision and in accordance with the directions, if any, of such a qualified supervisor.

Looks pretty clear cut to me, did you find something else that I've missed?

[silentC]

SC
That's pretty short sighted!
for those that are allowed (and by the sounds of the previous post that sounds like all of us) to do their own wiring might well benefit from the experience from those others that are allowed to do their own wiring.

Is this forum not for everyone who cares to contribute?
Well, wiring standards and electricity supply are both quite different in the US and probably the UK as well, so I don't see how advice given on an Australian forum concerning wiring in an Australian home would be applicable, except at a very basic level.

Hmm, I thought I'd had enough of this earlier today. Why do I keep biting?

[ozwinner]

Hmm, I thought I'd had enough of this earlier today. Why do I keep biting?

:club:cause its nice when the pain stops.

Al :shakehands:

[Ramps]

Hmm, I thought I'd had enough of this earlier today. Why do I keep biting?

Don't stop I'm having fun :D

I said the same thing on page 1 so it's good to see others don't do as they said

Good on you silent (The prince of Diplomats) ... intelligent argument and persistent... a greenie for your efforts.

I still don't agree with your point of view :no: but I do appreciate your research and I now know where I stand ... I'd like to take it further over a beer sometime. :2tsup:

[joe greiner]

I'd make a distinction between why to do it, and how to do it. Why to do it (theory) is beneficial to all, and can enlighten discussion with the pro who actually does the work. How to do it would be a no-no, especially with modifications to existing construction, as the previous work might not be right.

Consider an elementary situation in plumbing. In USA anyway, hot's on the left and cold's on the right (seems to be all over the lot in EU). But not a good idea to assume this for extensions; in my house, some of them were connected wrong. Theory that "water goes downhill" is OK to discuss (I said it was elementary).

In my field of structural engineering, I can freely tell you that a simple beam has tension on the bottom and compression on the top (theory). But if you want actual beam dimensions, hire a local pro.

Joe

[Wood Borer]

I can see Silent C's point to a certain extent.

If someone asked the question "My 10 Amp fuse blew is it OK to replace it with a 20 Amp fuse?" How would you answer that question?

1. Would you tell them to employ the services of a qualified electrician because that is the law?

2. Would you tell them that like explosives and the black plague you have no knowledge of electricity and it scares you and you feel it should scare everyone else so leave it to a sparky who because he has limited training, a piece of paper and insurance he is immune to electric shocks?

3. Would you tell them that a 10 Amp fuse should only be replaced with a 10 amp fuse? BTW legally only a qualified sparky can do the job.

I agree with you Joe.

4. Would you tell them to identify what caused the fuse to blow, overcome that problem and then replace it with a fuse of the same rating? Start by unplugging all appliances on that circuit and then plugging them in one by one ...... BTW legally only a qualified sparky can do the job.

I have problems with the first three responses.

The first response is correct but offers only legal advice. Who is allowed to give legal advice anyway?

The second response is one typically given by someone who has no knowledge on the subject but feels they should post a response anyway.

The third response is correct but does nothing apart from tell the reader the obvious.

The fourth response I feel is the best because it is technically and legally correct plus it attempts to resolve the person's problem.

I think a few of us are debating this topic knocking the first three responses.

[Frank&Earnest]

This is the relevant bit from the NSW HOME BUILDING ACT:



Looks pretty clear cut to me, did you find something else that I've missed?

Sorry for not answering before, I got sidetracked by the parallel thread, then a stolen car has destroyed my front fence... I had better days.

It is indeed clear cut, but it specifically relates to building a house: it means that a builder can not employ people to do electrical work if they are not licensed. Anyway, the simplest way to clarify the matter is to call the licencing board in your state, like I did, and see what they tell you. I'll bet that it is the same as in SA. The legislation does appear consistent.

[Wild Dingo]

Okay enough of this bickering and muckin about!!! IVE GOT A FRIGGIN ISSUE HERE!! :~

So I bought a welder today right... right! so I got it home and its got a 15amp plug right... right! so I know I dont have any 15amp outlets right... right! so Im thinkin Im a right friggin wally this time right... right!

But there I am just starting to fret about having to try to get the fellas at Perth Tools and Machinery Sales here in Bunbury to swap it for something else that has a 10amp plug and get to thinking about what to aim for so I go to CIGs homepage and download the info/spec sheets on their arc welders

I find mine right there no worries transarc easywelder turbo "light industrial" no problems so I start to move down through the pages and I find myself in the "industrial welders" section and I find this little number Transarc 141VRD so I look at the plug setup and it says
"SUPPLY PLUG AND LEAD:
15 amp lead, 10 amp plug"

EH WHASSAT??... so theyre making a sodding INDUSTRIAL welder thats supposedly more industrially compatable than the transarc easywelder turbo in my shed that has a poxy 15amp plug that I cant use... that has a 15amp lead WITH a 10amp plug??? So does this mean I can simply change the sodding plug without affecting the supply or performance of the machine or what???

Damn this sorta thing is bloody riritating!!... sorry if I sound phissed of fellas but geeeeeeez give me a break! IF they make one with both a 15amp lead and a 10amp plug thats supposedly higher rated for use then surely its a given that a lower rating one can also have the 10amp plug on the 15amp lead???

Now to me thats the sorta question that SCREAMS to be asked!!

[sundancewfs]

Wild Dingo,
An interesting dilemma, with an obvious ,simple solution. As you have no 15 amp power point, I would assume you haven't used it. Return it and get the one with the 10 amp plug. If they are a customer orientated business they should be more than happy to oblige. (I was in Machinery and equipment retail in Western Australia once apon a time and I know I would have done it as customer service). Swapping out the plug is not a good idea as if the unit does drawn 15 amps it will trip your breaker/blow the fuse everytime you use it. Note: a power circuit rarely has just one thing attached so even if it doesn't draw the full 15 amps, any other items plugged into that circuit and drawing current at the same time contribute to the overall circuit load. Now.... as far as giving advise and this topic. This is the sort of advise that I see as sensible to give. It doesn't advise breaking any laws and doesn't say "call a licenced professional" hopefully it helps some.
Andrew

[silentC]

It is indeed clear cut, but it specifically relates to building a house: it means that a builder can not employ people to do electrical work if they are not licensed. Anyway, the simplest way to clarify the matter is to call the licencing board in your state, like I did, and see what they tell you. I'll bet that it is the same as in SA. The legislation does appear consistent.
I rang an inspector from the Dept of Fair Trading in NSW. He says that the Housing Act does indeed affect what you do in your own home and there is no way known that an unlicensed person would be allowed to do their own wiring under any circumstances. He also mentioned the insurance ramifications. I asked about SA but he said he could not comment on another state, although he would be surprised if that was the case.

I don't think we have a conclusive answer. What we would need to see is a case where someone has been fined for doing their own electricals.

[silentC]

If someone asked the question "My 10 Amp fuse blew is it OK to replace it with a 20 Amp fuse?" How would you answer that question?
I'd say "get your board upgraded to circuit breakers, then when it trips you wont need a sparky to come and fix it". :wink:

[Iain]

I used to have a chart somewhere showing the ratings of paper clips through to 6" nails.
If in doubt, use a 6" nail or a bridge spike:rolleyes:

[silentC]

A responsible person for an electrical installation in a place must, to the best of the person’s ability and knowledge, ensure that such parts of the electrical installation as may be prescribed by the regulations are maintained in accordance with the regulations while the electrical installation remains connected to the source of the supply of electricity.
I think you will find that this is the paragraph (http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/fragview/inforce/act+4+2004+pt.3-sec.32+0+N) on which it all hinges. The regulations state that all electrical work must be carried out or supervised by a licensed person, so you cannot maintain in accordance with the regulations if you do it yourself.

[silentC]

Here are the regulations (http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/fragview/inforce/subordleg+34+2006+ch.3-TOP+0+N).

So, in a nutshell, you can do the wiring yourself but it must be certified by a qualified person. So if you can get a sparky to certify your new light fittings, then you are OK. Otherwise, you can be fined.

[silentC]

And finally this:


Section 14 (Unqualified electrical wiring work) of the Home Building Act 1989 makes it an offence for a person to carry out electrical wiring work unless the person is authorised to do so under that Act.

[craigb]

What penalties does the act stipulate for unlicensed work silent?

(I'm too lazy to actually read it :- )

[silentC]

Maximum penalty: 500 penalty units (in the case of a corporation) and 150 penalty units (in any other case).

Whatever that translates to....

Edit: that's for failing to maintain your installation in accordance with the regs.

Maximum penalty: 1,000 penalty units in the case of a corporation and 200 penalty units in any other case.

That's for carrying out wiring work without a license. So they could probably get you for both.

[Honorary Bloke]

Maximum penalty: 500 penalty units (in the case of a corporation) and 150 penalty units (in any other case).

Whatever that translates to....

Edit: that's for failing to maintain your installation in accordance with the regs.

Maximum penalty: 1,000 penalty units in the case of a corporation and 200 penalty units in any other case.

That's for carrying out wiring work without a license. So they could probably get you for both.

So what the H is a penalty unit? :?

[Iain]

So what the H is a penalty unit? :?

IN Vic criminal law it was $10.00, corporate may be different.

[Sturdee]

So what the H is a penalty unit? :?

The current value of a penalty unit in all Commonwealth and NSW cases is $ 110 and in Victoria it is $ 100 for local government prosecutions and $ 106.43 for state prosecutions.

Peter.

[MurrayD99]

These DIY high voltage wiring seminars are sooooo interesting and everyone wants input. Maybe there could be an ice cave built for the freaks - next to the one for the drivel freaks. There's such a wealth of knowledge.:D :D :D

(Need to be able to post pictures of crispy black items though:2tsup: )

[Wild Dingo]

Wild Dingo,
An interesting dilemma, with an obvious ,simple solution. As you have no 15 amp power point, I would assume you haven't used it. Return it and get the one with the 10 amp plug.
Andrew

I just rang the bloke explained it to him "No worries mate bring it back in and we will sort you" So Im about to head off and change it over for something else probably a TIG/ARC welder but maybe a MIG if he can convince me I need it :U

[sundancewfs]

The current value of a penalty unit in all Commonwealth and NSW cases is $ 110 and in Victoria it is $ 100 for local government prosecutions and $ 106.43 for state prosecutions.

Peter.

Mate! thats cheaper than a Sparky! U beauty! Linesman pliers for everybody! Yaaaaaaayyyy:U

[MurrayD99]

Mate! thats cheaper than a Sparky! U beauty! Linesman pliers for everybody! Yaaaaaaayyyy:U

And big alligator clips.....

[silentC]

Ah but the electricity supply company will disconnect your supply until you get it certified and the re-connection fee is a killer.

[craigb]

So if you cop the maximum 150 penalty points it's a $15,000 fine? :oo:

Ouch!

[silentC]

Plus you would have to pay a sparky to come in and fix/test what you have done.

I asked that guy this morning if he knew of anyone ever being fined for it and he said that it happens all the time...

[Frank&Earnest]

Here are the regulations (http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/fragview/inforce/subordleg+34+2006+ch.3-TOP+0+N).

So, in a nutshell, you can do the wiring yourself but it must be certified by a qualified person. So if you can get a sparky to certify your new light fittings, then you are OK. Otherwise, you can be fined.

... which is what I have said since the beginning. Everybody happy now?:)

ETA: Keep in mind that you are always referring to building. Once the place has been certified, any further maintenance work wich is up to standard would not void the certification, because it should be indistinguishable from the previous work. The certifying body would have the onus of proof that such further work breaches the Act, whoever has done it.

[Frank&Earnest]

So if you cop the maximum 150 penalty points it's a $15,000 fine? :oo:

Ouch!

If you read back post #26, you will see that in SA the maximum penalty is $250,000.

[Schtoo]

I've said it before, I'll say it now and I am sure (dag-nab-it) that I will be saying it again in the future.

"If you need to ask, then maybe you shouldn't be doing it."

That doesn't apply to all things of course, but when it comes to fixed wiring, it does.


I had a long diatribe typed in here, then I figured why bother, it's been said before already.

So, I leave you with the above. I think that's all that's really required.

[Master Splinter]

Easy solution. Since New Zealand has the same wiring rules and fittings (but they allow homeowners to do some electrical work), all electrical advice is now given for the benefit of NZ'ers. Done!

[Frank&Earnest]

Easy solution. Since New Zealand has the same wiring rules and fittings (but they allow homeowners to do some electrical work), all electrical advice is now given for the benefit of NZ'ers. Done!

Is that your attempt at ethnic cleansing?

It is depressing that after 4 pages waffling about legality the real point about not helping people killing themselves or others is not sinking in. (Thanks Schtoo. Commiserations, silentC).

[rrich]

I always thought, DIY was OK. After yesterday I understand the reason for the requirement that a sparky do the work.

Yesterday, the neighbor from across the street knocks on the door. "Your house is the same as mine. I was changing switches in the bathroom (a.k.a. WC or Dunny) and now nothing works. Would you help?"

Side note, Here in the US we have two styles of switches, normal and decor. The decor switches are the retecangular rocker switches. We also have regular, three way and four way switches. The regular has one input and one output. The three way has one input and two outputs withn one or the other always on. Without drawing it out, I forget about the four way switches.

Back to the neighbor's bathroom. I grab my meter and go to look things over. No electricity coming into the switch. My neighbor is saying that he hates doing electrical work because he knows nothing about it. :o The problem appears to be that the wire is broken inside the insulation. So I grab some black wire and wire nuts from home and go back to the neighbors. That was easy. A short length of black wire and wire nut to splice in the wire and now correctly connected to the switch after moving the other wires.

This is a circuit using three way switches as the light is turned on/off from either side of the bathroom. It's wierd, the light only works if the other switch is in a particular position. OK, this switch is correct and I close things up before looking at the other switch.

The other switch is a regular switch in a three way circuit. :o :doh:) But there are THREE wires! How could you connect three wires to two terminals? :doh: :no: :doh:) Another oddity concerning the switches here. Some switches are quick connect and have a slip in, single use terminal in addition to the normal screw terminal. My neighbor, the electrical genius, used a slip in terminal and the two screw terminals. I reinstalled the old switch to make everything work normally. Then I explained that he needed to get a three way decor switch and move one wire at at a time to the new switch.

Today, I checked with my neighbor's wife to be sure that everything was working correctly.

Mates, after yesterday I fully understand the need for regulations regarding electrical work. We need those regulations here also!

[sundancewfs]

Here is a pic just for fun...... I think they do all their own electrical work.... I didn't see one grounded power point on Mexico....:)

[Master Splinter]

I think some people are missing the point.

Regulations are fine - the problem we have is how you can gain recognition that you have undertaken enough training to follow and interpret the Australian/New Zealand wiring rules so that you are able to undertake particular electrical tasks.

At the moment, the only way to gain electrical qualifications is to undertake a four year apprenticeship along with TAFE training. So unless you are willing to work for 'trainee' wages for four years, there is no way you can gain the qualifications.

Sounds like an unreasonably high barrier to entry, to me.

(and if anyone says "oh, but it gives invaluable hands on experience", I'll relate the story of an ex electrical apprentice friend who gave it up after spending 7 months of his apprenticeship as the person with the job of breaking the ceramic insulation off MIMS wire for fire installations. So yes, he was very good with a hammer after all that practice.)

[Schtoo]

Master Splinter, uhh, what ceramic sheath on MIMS cable?

Just curious since I have yet to see any ceramic coating on the stuff, and I think I might have installed enough of the ^&#37;$^%$ stuff to know.

It's painful stuff to work with, and it would be impossible if they added anything extra to deal with on it.

I can however relate to being stuck doing one thing for months/years in order to gain 'experience'. Not much short of slave labour really. For those poor sods, the 4 years is basically worthless.


But then you end up on the other end of the coin, I'll put myself up for examination since no-one else is offering.

If you take a full Clipsal catalogue, and a full Pirelli (used to be) cable catalogue, throw in a Pyrotenax catalogue and cross out maybe 5% of each catologue. What is left is what I have likely installed at one time or another. I remember telling someone from Clipsal how to install some of the gear they make. Hands on experience and all that, as worthless as it is sometimes claimed to be...

We used to do almost anything, and as a result there is very little electrical work I can't do due to lack of previous experience.

However, I have been away for over 5 years, and would not kid myself that I could step back in tomorrow. I'd take at least 6 months to get back in the groove of things.


Yes, I am a sparky.

Am I good one?

Probably, but that's not my call really.

Could some folks here do their own little electrical jobs with competence and in complete safety?

No doubt. But there would be just as many, if not more who could not do their own things without some element of risk that would be eliminated or at least reduced if a professional did the job.


I might not be particularly worried about the idea of someone with no qualifications doing electrical work, but since I know that some folks really shouldn't touch the stuff, and I have no way of identifying who should and should not, I tend to avoid saying anything.

[silentC]

Once the place has been certified, any further maintenance work wich is up to standard would not void the certification, because it should be indistinguishable from the previous work.
No, I thought I cleared that up with all those links to the Electrical Safety Act and Regulations and the call to that inspector from The Dept. of Fair Trading. You are responsible for maintaining your installation according to the regulations, and the regulations state quite clearly that an unqualified person cannot do electrical work, unless under direct supervision of a qualified supervisor. The work then needs to be tested and certified by a qualified person. The only loophole is that they probably wont ever know you did it.

This is the state of affairs in NSW. I find it hard to believe that SA would be any different.

[rat52]

One thing that has not yet been discussed is the testing and tagging of electrical tools on building sites.

As a carpenter I carried 20 or more items so being a tightass and not wanting to pay $10 per tool I did a course on in house testing.

It was the best course I have ever done as it explained the dangers very clearly and gave me a basic knowledge of electricity.

Even though the legislation say a competent person can change a plug end any thing more than that I leave to the experts.

Every three months it takes me about 2 hrs to check all my tools including a visual check for wear and tear. I also check that all safety guards are working smoothly.

I realise that this legislation does not apply to people working in their own sheds but I would strongly advise every one to get all electrical appliances checked at least once a yr for your own peace of mind as things do wear and wires can only flex so much before breaking.

[Frank&Earnest]

The only loophole is that they probably wont ever know you did it.



maintenance work wich is up to standard would not void the certification, because it should be indistinguishable from the previous work.

In practice, we are saying the same thing with different words.




the regulations state quite clearly that an unqualified person cannot do electrical work, unless under direct supervision of a qualified supervisor This is the state of affairs in NSW. I find it hard to believe that SA would be any different.

Indeed. But the essential qualification is missing: in a paid work context.

There is always the possibility that either of us has not asked the right question or has been given the wrong answer. I'll try to formulate the issue in the tightest possible form, as I have been assured applies in SA.

- A is an unlicensed individual who knows and applies the standards required for the job.
- B is an unlicensed individual who does not.

A does the job for himself. He does not break any law.

A does the job for others. He breaches consumer protection laws.

B does the job for himself. He breaches safety laws. (Certification or $250,000 fine)

B does the job for others. He breaches consumer protection laws. His client breaches safety laws.

The person I spoke with said that unpaid work "for family and friends is a grey area". In doubt, erring on the said of caution is always a good idea.

Makes sense to me. Hope this settles it.

[silentC]

A does the job for himself. He does not break any law.
Sorry but no, I can't agree with that.

I haven't read the SA legislation, but the Electricity (Consumer Safety) Act and Regulations of NSW, which apply to an existing Electrical Installation - ie. a house which has been built and is now being lived in by someone, state quite clearly that:


electrical installation means any fixed appliances, wires, fittings, apparatus or other electrical equipment used for (or for purposes incidental to) the conveyance, control and use of electricity in a particular place

(there are exclusions but none that affect this argument)


electrical wiring work means the actual physical work of installing, repairing, altering, removing or adding to an electrical installation or the supervising of that work.


A responsible person for an electrical installation in a place must, to the best of the person’s ability and knowledge, ensure that such parts of the electrical installation as may be prescribed by the regulations are maintained in accordance with the regulations while the electrical installation remains connected to the source of the supply of electricity.


Section 14 (Unqualified electrical wiring work) of the Home Building Act 1989 makes it an offence for a person to carry out electrical wiring work unless the person is authorised to do so under that Act.


An individual must not do any electrical wiring work (whether or not it is also residential building work), except:

(a) as a qualified supervisor (being the holder of an endorsed contractor licence, or a supervisor certificate, authorising its holder to do that work), or

(b) as the holder of a tradesperson certificate authorising its holder to do that work under supervision, but only if the work is done under the supervision and in accordance with the directions, if any, of such a qualified supervisor.

The requirement to have any electrical wiring work done by a qualified person (or under the direct supervision of a qualified supervisor) extends to an existing electrical installation, ie. your house. It is black and white in this state. There are no grey areas here. It does not cover only paid work, that phrase is not mentioned. There are regulations about who can contract for electrical work but that is covered elsewhere.

I can't speak for the situation in SA.

If you still don't believe me, then there's no more I can do to convince you, so I wish you well with your future electrical activities.

[NCArcher]

If you still don't believe me, then there's no more I can do to convince you, so I wish you well with your future electrical activities.

Your'e wasting your breath Silent.
It has been pointed out many times but he just cant grasp that it is illegal.

[Frank&Earnest]

Ok, I'll get it in writing. If my interpretation of the law has been incorrectly confirmed by the Office of Consumer and Business Affairs, which administers the licencing of electricians in SA, I will publicly apologise on their and my behalf. I trust that all those of you who think that I "just cant grasp that it is illegal" will extend to me the same courtesy if I am again proven correct.

silentC: when an Act refers to regulations, they are the regulations pertaining to that Act, not other Acts (eg the Building Act in this case). As I see it, and I could be wrong not having read both Acts in detail, you keep mixing their purposes and making a wrong inference from one to the other. Either that, or b) the law is actually different in NSW, or c) I am wrong about SA, as above. Once I have sorted it out this side of the border, if c) is excluded you might wish to satisfy yourself about whether it is a) or b).

[silentC]

I would just like to make it clear that I do not now, nor have I ever, professed to have any knowledge of "how they do things" in SA. I've been there twice in my life. If it's legal in SA, then maybe all the people who complain about not being allowed to do their own wiring can move there and wire away to their heart's content.


if I am again proven correct
You should have been a politician.

[silentC]

I'm also wondering if you've read any of the stuff above, because I honestly can't see how anyone could logically still argue that it's not illegal to do your own wiring in NSW.

[TEEJAY]

I'm also wondering if you've read any of the stuff above, because I honestly can't see how anyone could logically still argue that it's not illegal to do your own wiring in NSW.

Yeah well I'm pretty sure I can do my own wiring in Queensland :)

[Frank&Earnest]

No, I did not, I said it above, and the excerpts allowed my interpretation.

Ok, it has been quick. As life often goes, I was only partially right. And I could not possibly be a politician, because I always stick to my word. I hereby offer my sincere partial apologies and expect only partial apologies.

The misunderstanding with Consumer Affairs was around the word "licence". No licence is required if the work is unpaid. What is required in an urban area is a "worker registration", i.e. the qualification we were really talking about. Cockies are allowed to kill themselves :D.

I am going to repeat this in the other thread re maintenance of applications. On that count I was 100% correct. On this side of the power point it is a free country.

[TEEJAY]

Yep, this farm has it's own wiring SilentC :)

[silentC]

when an Act refers to regulations, they are the regulations pertaining to that Act, not other Acts (eg the Building Act in this case).
You need to read it properly. The Electricity (Consumer Safety) Act refers to the Electricity (Consumer Safety) Regulations and the Electricity (Consumer Safety) Regulations refer explicitly to the section of the Home Building Act where it makes reference to unqualified work.

This is from the Electricity (Consumer Safety) Regulations:

Section 14 (Unqualified electrical wiring work) of the Home Building Act 1989 makes it an offence for a person to carry out electrical wiring work unless the person is authorised to do so under that Act.

It is the author of the legislation making the cross-reference, not me. I simply quoted section 14 for your convenience.


Cockies are allowed to kill themselves
Not in NSW. At least, not in any loophole I've found. Glad I'm not a farmer in SA. :)

[silentC]

Cockies are allowed to kill themselves
Another thing the Inspector told me the other day was that the Electricity (Consumer Safety) Act also now makes it illegal to do your own wiring on stand alone installations. That would include people running a generator capable of producing more than 50 volts.

[TEEJAY]

Yep cockies are allowed to be killed here in Queensland - at least they were by the canetoads in the State of Origin :)

[silentC]

What is required in an urban area is a "worker registration"
OK, so a registered worker is an electrician, who has completed a trade certificate and is qualified to do electrical work under supervision. A licensee is (presumably) an electrician who has also jumped through the necessary hoops to become a supervisor or certified inspector. So both of these options leave Joe Blow out of the equation.

In that case, it is identical to NSW (except for the cockies bit), and the upshot is that a common or garden variety householder is not allowed to do his or her own wiring, unless under the direct supervision of a licensed person. So not even your mate Bill the sparky will do, unless he is licensed. And that's what I've been saying all along.

[chrisp]

My understanding is that doing your own non-fixed wiring is legal in Australia. (I’m happy to stand corrected if I’m wrong.) Therefore, why can’t we ask and discuss how to repair a (non-fixed wired) appliance?

I think Frank&Earnest have verified my original claim regarding the legal status of doing your own non-fixed wiring - i.e. wiring of your own plug-in appliances for your own use.

My understanding is that doing your own fixed wiring is illegal except when done under appropriate supervision.

I've found the discussion in this thread quite interesting, and it seems that there is some genuine, but well intentioned, confusion about the legality of electrical work. I hope that this thread will go someway to alleviating the confusion.

I have asked the OCEI in writing for clarification on this - I'm still awaiting a response. But my understanding from previous verbal contact with the OCEI is that they are only concerned with fixed wiring (and new appliances). In the meantime, I have not heard anything to suggest that the impact of the regulations has changed.

There are other interesting matters that have arose in this thread, such as:
The "closed shop" issue. The barriers to being about to sit the required tests to achieve a license.
The "indistinguishability" issue - if the work is done according to standard and done in a workmanship like manner, but by an unlicensed person, who would know, and who would have a prove the work was legal or illegal?

[silentC]

I've found the discussion in this thread quite interesting
Agreed, and I know a lot more about the legal side of it than I did before.

I think it would be a good idea to have some sort of statement or link to the legislation as a sticky on the forum so that we don't have to debate this all the time. People can then make up their own minds if they want to go ahead and do it any way or give advice on it, knowing what is and isn't legal.

And isn't that what we've been on about - access to information?

[Frank&Earnest]

Seconded. And now, NCArcher, can I have your half apology?

[DavidG]

NSW Electricity (Consumer Safety) Regulation 2006 (http://www.neca.asn.au/filelibrary/NSW/Legal/Electricty&#37;20Consumer%20Safety%20Regulation%202006.pdf)
NSW Home Building Act 1989 No 147 (http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/fullhtml/inforce/act+147+1989+FIRST+0+N#pt.2-div.2)


There is not much left that you can do.:C :~