Timber Driveway - How & what ?

[SteveAndBelle]

Hi,

Just looking at some 'green' alternatives for a few renovations to our house & yard and as one of the things we need to do is install a new driveway my first thought was 'why not timber?'.

I'd prefer not to use concrete or pavers as they're very 'unsustainable' (yes, that awful buzz word) and in fact we'll be ripping up a large thick slab of concrete the previous owners laid for the existing very poorly positioned garage on the other side of the house and I'm hoping to have it crushed & screened offsite and delivered back to us as 'gravel' for us to use on many other projects around the house (including bedding for under the possible timber driveway). Recycled timber would be perfect but I'm happy to settle for certified plantation timber of some description.

I've seen a few examples of this on the internet and I've even read an old thread on this forum (http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=1943) about it too so I know it's very possible but I have one question, what about Termites ?

The reason I ask is that when we originally moved into the house a couple of years ago one of the first jobs was to remove an old cubby house from the back yard. In the process of doing so I discovered termites right through the CCA treated Koppers logs & sleepers ! I was shocked but on asking a few people this seems to be a common misconception that CCA treated timber prevents termites from chewing away at it.

So, does anyone have any idea what timber to use to build a termite resistant timber driveway ?

PS. By the way, it's going to be quite a large area, about 20m in length and 3m wide. I'll hopefully be doing it all myself but that's OK, even if it's more effort & more expensive than concrete and lasts only 20-30 years I'm fine with that, I just want to explore ALL alternatives before settling for the standard concrete solution that's all.

[SteveAndBelle]

Just thought I'd throw this in too :

http://ourhouse.ninemsn.com.au/ourhouse/factsheets/db/makeovers/05/529.asp

It's a link to something someone else has done and includes a dodgy, small & low-res picture of the final product. The article mentions one method on how it's all put together but I'm just not comfortable with putting timber straight onto the ground for fear of it being eaten by termites within a matter of months instead of years or decades.

[dazzler]

I have seen one done in old railway sleepers. It worked, not my taste, but thats neither here nor there.

What about new 3m long treated pine ones and retreat them yourself perhaps before laying

[SteveAndBelle]

Yeah, double or even triple treated pine might be the only way I'll be able to get away with it. I was considering treating the treated pine before laying it all down and then re-treating it yet again once it had been installed just to be on the safe side plus that last treatment will be much easier to do as it'll just be a matter of rolling the treatment on ... so I may as well ;)

But is there anything else that can be done to avoid using all this nasty poison ? What about non-hardcore chemical based treatment like turps for instance ? Or, what about different timber types ?? Surely there's something that termites don't like or am I thinking of a mythical timber 'nirvana' ?

PS. Sleepers aren't the top choice for me either. I'd much prefer the 'cleaner' & sleeker look of the method used in the above link (ie. tough timber decking mounted slightly above the ground on close timber joists).

[dazzler]

I agree. Cost is all :)

[Wood Butcher]

CCA treatment does stop white ants and timber rot if done properly. The problem is if the treatment do not do it properly ...or if you cut the treated timber. If you talk to any of the treatment works (and yes I used to send timber to one to get treated regularly) they can do different levels of treatment and provide you with a certificate if you wish but rarely will they guarantee the treatment if you cut it, which is why there was white ants in that cubby house. You can can an end treatment for applying to treated timber after it is cut but there is still no guarantee.

If you want to go with a timber driveway by some hardwood sleepers and get them treated your self to at least treatment level H5 – suitable for use in H5 Hazard environments – ground contact, aggressive (eg posts in high water table areas, bridge piles). This will minimise the risk of decay.

However you will have the risk of the arsenic salts and copper leaching into the soil around your driveway which is something else that you will have to consider.

[rhancock]

We used recycled concrete for our drive - its not quite as big as yours! Apart from the price, and the environmental benefits I like the security of having a house surrounded by very crunchy gravel, its also better at soaking up rainwater - no runoff, and being from England, it makes me think I live in a stately home... most big old houses in Europe have very long gravel drives - have a look next time there's an ad showing a car pulling up in front of a big house.

We got the recycled concrete from QLD Recycling, next to the council tip at Nudgee. http://www.whitepages.com.au/wp/busSearch.do?subscriberName=Queensland+Recycling+Pty+Ltd&state=AU&bookID=Q00W&page=1&refinement=true

Is your drive level? I don't know how you'd go with gravel on a sloping drive.

[SteveAndBelle]

... arsenic salts and copper leaching into the soil ... H5 Hazard environments ....

Yeah, that's the problem hey. The better the timber is treated the more nasty stuff can leach out and for longer too ! 'H5 Hazard Environments', wow ! You know it's serious stuff if it has to be represented by a number code system :0 Gees.

Thanks for the info though. That's all good to know.



Is your drive level? I don't know how you'd go with gravel on a sloping drive.

Yes 'R', the driveway does take a dive down about 2m from the road but then flattens out down beside the lower level house slab (yet more concrete we're not responsible for :). That stuff looks great for your place but as you say I'm not sure how that will go down the slope.

Nice house too by the way, gotta love a QLD'er hey :) It's freezing cold in Winter as we don't want to waste energy on heaters or reverse cycle AC etc. (especially with 13ft ceilings) but wow what a ripper she is in Summer ! Oh so cool & breezy with only a few ceiling fans for when it gets super-hot ! They sure knew what they were doing 70+ years ago :)

Hmm, this timber driveway idea is sounding more and more like a 'not-so-good' idea :( Pity.

[echnidna]

Years ago the some of the very old streets in Melbourne were paved with wood blocks in exactly the same way we use paving stones these days.

Very vaguely seem to remember them being about 4" thick.

Up north I'd use 5" x 3" cypress (or 4"x4") and cut them into blocks and lay them.

[rat52]

A neighbour of mine used pine to make his front fence then soaked it in creosote.

It stunk for about 3 months but he has had no rotting or termite problems

[echnidna]

Creosote is carcinogenic so I wouldn't use it in an exposed situation

[Big Shed]

Quite correct, we used to make a creosote based wood stain/preservative and had to take it off the market some years ago.

Wikipedia has agood write up about creosote (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creosote).

The problem with wood preservatives is that if it is toxic to termites, it is almost invariable toxic to humans. The moral of the story? You can replace that piece of wood when it eventually rots, your body is another matter:oo:

[munruben]

Just a stupid question but if I don't ask, I wont know, wouldn't a timber drive be slippery in the wet weather compared to pavers or concrete?

[rhancock]

From your first post, I assume you're trying to reduce your environmental impact, which is always hard when it comes to treating timber. There are a few "envrionmentally sound" treatments, but the only one I know the name of is Cooee, and I've never used it. Your other option is Cypress which is supposed to be termite proof ( or just termite resistant?).

BTW, its good to hear someone who thinks that something which "only" last 20 or 30 years is a compromise!

CCA isn't used any more - anything you can find will be old left overs, the newer treatments are ACQ and something else. I'm not convinced that in 30 years time they won't be banning these treatments too, though. There's more information here: http://www.treatedpine.net/ and here: http://www.tpaa.com.au/index.htm although neither site is impartial as they're run by the manufacturers.

The other thing you could do is talk to your local timber yard and see what they say. Its worth remembering that some treatments are surface treatments too (CCA for example) whereas some are pressure treated, and theoretically the treatment is impregnated all the way throught the timber ( ACQ I think). The Irish guy at Endeavour timbers is very knowledgable. They're at Northgate. http://www.woodworkforums.com/archive/index.php/t-8404.html

You're right about the qlder - beautiful in summer. We have put gas heating as it worked out the most efficient, along with lots of ceiling insulation - if we could work out how to keep the heat from disappearing through the windows I'd be happier. But summers - beautiful and no aircon - fans in all the rooms, shut all the doors and windows at 9am and the house stays cool all day. Open her up at dusk to let in the mozzies, I mean the cool night air.

[weisyboy]

i have seen a few driveways made from railway sleepers but over the years they have becone rough from sinking and bits spliting off them. and the people are just driving over there once perfictly maintained lawn.

but if you are still keen on doing this a lot of hardwoods are ok as they are to hard for the termires to chew. these are the same ones that are used for fence posts. ironbark, stringybark, grey gum, qld bluegum, bloodwood, and tallow wood are all good.

[SteveAndBelle]

Just a stupid question but if I don't ask, I wont know, wouldn't a timber drive be slippery in the wet weather compared to pavers or concrete?

Yeah, it probably would be slippery in wet weather ... but hey, how many times has it rained in Brisbane in the last 2 years ? Kidding of course ;)

I would leave 20mm gaps in between each piece of timber so that in itself would hopefully provide a bit of grip but you're right, wet timber is very slippery plus over time those nice sharp edges would wear down.

Hmmmm, more food for thought anyway. Thanks for the input.

[SteveAndBelle]

From your first post, I assume you're trying to reduce your environmental impact ...

Yep, that's priority number one for all our house & garden renovations but WoW it's difficult as I'm sure a lot of you would know. It's so difficult weighing up the pros & cons of each & every material selected & descision made. It can really do your head in.

My favourite is the good ol' light bulb argument ... save energy buy changing all your lightbulbs to compact fluros which consume less energy but are problematic at disposal due to the mercury etc. contained within OR do you just stick to good ol' fashioned energy guzzling filament type lightbulbs knowing that when they're disposed of there's no real nasties to have to worry about ? Same goes for fossil fuel vs. electric powered cars or even cloth or disposable nappies where you're just transferring the problem to something else whichever method you choose.
Don't even get me started on Nuclear power ... oh boy :doh:

So yes, environmental impact is priority number one for us however there are times when it's just far too difficult (& ridiculously over-expensive) to go all the way. It's tough, but at least we're trying to do the so-called 'right thing'.

[rhancock]

Yep, that's priority number one for all our house & garden renovations but WoW it's difficult as I'm sure a lot of you would know. It's so difficult weighing up the pros & cons of each & every material selected & descision made. It can really do your head in.
...
So yes, environmental impact is priority number one for us however there are times when it's just far too difficult (& ridiculously over-expensive) to go all the way. It's tough, but at least we're trying to do the so-called 'right thing'.

That's why I went with recycled concrete - its already been produced and used, it will go into landfill if there's no recycling market, every extra ton recycled is another builder convinced that a big bin to throw everything in, regardless of potential reuse (how many of you risk a car crash peering into skips as you drive past, looking for that beautiful t&g flooring they've thrown out) is a crime against the planet....

The way I see it, anything you can do to help is a good thing, and don't forget it might persuade your friends, builder, real estate agent, etc when you tell them where the materials come from.

[SteveAndBelle]

... it might persuade your friends .. when you tell them where the materials come from.

Yeah right ! We've got two sets of good friends who think similarly but all our other friends are too busy striving to buy their concrete McMansion and fill it with as many energy guzzling appliances as they can not to mention the whopping great big full house AC systems they run during summer. Oh and a few of them are in the middle of buying large 4WD's along with boats and everything else that the Jones' have too.

Kinda disgusting really but hey we're all different so who am I to judge I s'pose. I'm looking at putting poisoned timber onto & into the ground to run our car over so I'm probably just as bad when it all boils down to it :-

[rhancock]

Yeah right ! We've got two sets of good friends who think similarly but all our other friends are too busy striving to buy their concrete McMansion and fill it with as many energy guzzling appliances as they can not to mention the whopping great big full house AC systems they run during summer. Oh and a few of them are in the middle of buying large 4WD's along with boats and everything else that the Jones' have too.

Kinda disgusting really but hey we're all different so who am I to judge I s'pose. I'm looking at putting poisoned timber onto & into the ground to run our car over so I'm probably just as bad when it all boils down to it :-

Shouldn't stop you trying though!

[SilentButDeadly]

Steve and Belle.........what you need is not timber.....it's this stuff.

Gravelpave http://www.landplan.com.au/gravelpave2_product_info.htm

Made from recycled plastic.....

Pull up your driveway and get it ground up on site. Lay the gravel pave on the prepared ground then way your crunched up concrete over the top.

[David L]

The timber will definitely become slippery when wet and mould if damp long enough such as in the shade.
No way I would use it with my experience.

[rhancock]

Steve and Belle.........what you need is not timber.....it's this stuff.

Gravelpave http://www.landplan.com.au/gravelpave2_product_info.htm

Made from recycled plastic.....

Pull up your driveway and get it ground up on site. Lay the gravel pave on the prepared ground then way your crunched up concrete over the top.

Gosh, what will they think of next... I think it looks interesting though, the gravel certainly wanders around a bit. You don't think it looks like you've buried all your empty stubbies under the drive, though???

I've seen a concrete version of "Grasspave" in the UK, but I'm not sure they can get away with describing it as "exciting"...

[SteveAndBelle]

Steve and Belle.........what you need is not timber.....it's this stuff.

Gravelpave http://www.landplan.com.au/gravelpave2_product_info.htm

Made from recycled plastic.....

Pull up your driveway and get it ground up on site. Lay the gravel pave on the prepared ground then way your crunched up concrete over the top.

Wow, what a fantastic idea ! I was concerned that it might not do too well on the slope however looking further into the info on the website it seems that if you add a bit of cement (7%) to the gravel on the sloped surface everything will be fine !

The fact that this product is 100% recycled plastic and the fact that we can crush up the concrete (onsite) from the existing driveway & garage to use as gravel with this stuff just makes complete sense.

Thanks you very much for the link Silent, I'm going to look further into it for sure as it just sounds too good to pass by. I just can't think of any cons with it either apart from the fact it may not be too good after 20+ years ;) They also have a few other very interesting products too including a similar plastic device you can stack together to create your own custom water retention or storage system and cover it with grass or concrete or even a road surface for a driveway ! Great stuff indeed.

I think I'm sold but does anyone else have any other solutions better than this for the application ? Bring 'em on.

[silentC]

I rang them about this stuff today. The girl I spoke to says they haven't actually sold any of it here yet (US product) but she is mailing me the product info. Said it is about $33 per square metre.

[SteveAndBelle]

... about $33 per square metre.

That's just under $2000 worth for the approx. area we need to cover (3mx22m) but of course I'll then need the gravel and the various other things to finish it off and I'm not sure if the slabs we can get crushed will be enough to do the entire job so we may need to find/buy more old concrete to get it done.

I have no idea how much concrete costs to process, especially onsite, however I'd say that even at this price I'm sure it'd still be cheaper than most other methods plus you get the benefits of everything being 100% recycled (except I doubt the geofabric layer is made from recycled materials).

Hmmm, wanna race to see who can be the first in Oz to install it ? :U

[silentC]

Given that I'd need about 210 sq. metres, which comes to around 7k just for the mat, and I've been quoted $6,600 for a finished crushed rock driveway, you wont have to rush to beat me :)

[SilentButDeadly]

There is always the grasscrete option from the UK http://enviroconcrete.com.au/

And it looks like these dudes http://www.invisiblestructures.com.au/ are the Oz distributor of the Gravel Pave product - based in Angelsea, Victoria.

And there's Turfpave http://www.elmich.com.au/turfpave/turfpave.html or http://www.denare.com.au/turfpave.htm

Or the Austral grass paver http://www.australbrick.com.au/vic/product.php?ID=3022 but I suspect they ain't available in Qld

Master Masonry in Taree, NSW do a similar concrete product too

[SteveAndBelle]

Given that I'd need about 210 sq. metres, which comes to around 7k just for the mat, and I've been quoted $6,600 for a finished crushed rock driveway, you wont have to rush to beat me :)

Yeah, I see your point.

[SteveAndBelle]

There is always the grasscrete option...

Yeah there is, but probably not the best for our application. My parents had that in their old house and used it to widen the double driveway so a car could be stored on the side without getting in the way of the main cars in & out of the garage. The driveway was on a fair slope and of course when the grass grew through the holes it meant that you wouldn't get much traction until your tyre 'burnt' through the grass and gripped onto the concrete bits.

All in all it was a good idea and a heck of a lot less visual impact that just a solid slab of plain concrete however as we also have a similar grade slope in a part of our driveway I'd hate to have to train up the wife in how to control a car on a slippery grassy slope just to get the car out. We don't really use our car much anyway but maybe we should just buy a big 4WD, that'd solve the problem ! We could easily get up slippery grass ;)

There's also the issue that where the driveway will go doesn't get a lot of sun so it can stay very damp for ages after rain plus I don't think the grass will grow too well there anyway so it's probably not a good combination.

Nah, I reckon the timber idea is awesome but probably isn't too good in practice for this application. The gravelpave system seems to best as it seems to be perfect for the job plus allows us to recycle the concrete from the curent dodgy garage & driveway to use as 'gravel' for the new driveway.

I'm sure there are a few other things we could do so please let me know if anyone else knows of anything but I'm keen on GravelPave so I'll look more seriously into it from here.

Thanks again !

[Terrian]

Yeah there is, but probably not the best for our application. My parents had that in their old house and used it to widen the double driveway so a car could be stored on the side without getting in the way of the main cars in & out of the garage. The driveway was on a fair slope and of course when the grass grew through the holes it meant that you wouldn't get much traction until your tyre 'burnt' through the grass and gripped onto the concrete bits.


So don't fill the squares with soil & grass, fill 'em with stones instead (works well in a few places up warburton way)

[Master Splinter]

Just remember that Australians move house every 5-7 years.

And if your driveway isn't too the taste of the next owner, it'll be likely to be the first thing ripped up and replaced with concrete. A timber and gravel driveway looks like it is 'easy' to remove so your ecologically friendly alternative may end up as landfill well before its payback period is up.

(I've seen a house have all its compact fluorescent bulbs replaced with normal bulbs as the new owner 'didn't like the funny shape'. I give up, I'm cranking my heating to 25 and wearing shorts and a tee shirt in winter!)

[rhancock]

Now where we would we be if the knights said that on their first crusade, or the womens libbers? You can't just give up at the first hurdle!

Set an example... Someone will walk past your house and think it looks great, and copy you, and everyone who asks, you can explain why you did it, and each time you move forward a little bit. You can even tell the next owner why you did it that way.

Don't be put off by naysayers.