A Different Perspective

[rrich]

I'm not a sparky and I don't have an axe to grind.

However, to me it's not a very big deal to do all types of single an double phase electrical work in my home. (I probably could do three phase, but I won't because of the lack of current knowlege.)

I just apply some of the things that I've learned in high school physics and a few electronics classes. I've observed sparkies working and talked to them.

At our BORGs we have layman's guides to the NEC (National Electrical Code). If there is any confusion I'll just pop the cover off of the breaker box and observe how things were done.

There was a recent post about down lights. Evidently, from the description provided, the poster was trying to add a non grounded fixture to a string of grounded down lights. To me, it is not a big mystery even without intimate knowlege of the color code standards in OZ. (If the fixture is non-conductive, the fixture can't be grounded and a 2 wire connection should be acceptable and to code.)

I sense that in OZ there is a general fear of electrons by home owners and as one gets near electrons in large numbers, the fear increases. I'm really surprised at the number of times that forum members suggest that a sparky be engaged. I guess what I'm asking, is this "engage a sparky" philosophy a regulatory thing or a union issue or just ordinary Mushroom theory? (Keep them in the dark and feed them cow pies.)

I keep thinking that if somebody sits down and writes an electricity book for the home owner, there could be a huge financial rewards. Like a lifetime supply of tools and timber.

[craigb]

It's illegal for a non qualified person to perform electrical work in Australia.

Not only that, but it can have serious insurance ramifications (ie you'll be uninsured) if your house burns down or somebody is injured due to illegally performed electrical work.

I realise that othe rcountries have looser standards , but that's just the way it is here.

Having said that, I'm sure that plenty of people do indeed wire up an extra power point/fitting on occasions.

[DavidG]

rrich
It's the law.

You are not supposed to touch electrical matters with out the proper training and license.

Even giving advice on how to do it could lead to you getting sued if some thing went wrong. :C

That is why those of us who have an electronics background or are licensed to touch the stuff duck for cover and advise the use of a sparky.

Dave...
If you have to ask then get a sparky....

[Wood Borer]

Rich,

Pretty much what the others said. We also use 240V which bites a bit more than your 110V.

Unfortunately some people think if they know the colour codes and wire them into the correct terminal everything will be OK.

However you know as well as I do that high resistance in a joint or a terminal with a bit of current flowing through it will heat up the joint/terminal. Proximity to other services and knowledge of how cables can be damaged are factors that cause more problems than getting the colour codes wrong.

Our insurance companies inspect all fires and if they see suspect cabling they will ask for a certificate form the sparky who did the job (so they can sue him) or they will refuse to pay out. If you have done the job yourself and even if it meets all regulations you are history if you haven't got a sparkies ticket.

Unfortunately over here, knowledge doesn't count just certificates. You can have a certificate and no knowledge and the law blesses you, however knowledge and no certificate gets you into hot water.

I have trained well over a hundred of sparkies in telecommunications and most of them have very little knowledge when it comes to basic electrical/electronic theory. They tend go on memory of regulations when it comes to current capacity of cables and circuits. That's what the regulatory people want and so the sparkies abide.

Sad isn't it.

[ozwinner]

but I won't because of the lack of current knowlege.

Thats Gold.....:U:roll:



At our BORGs

Whats a BORG?


Rich,

Pretty much what the others said. We also use 240V which bites a bit more than your 110V.



I thought the amp draw was bigger with 110v, and isnt it the amps that kill?

Al :)

[Wood Borer]

Whats a BORG?



I thought the amp draw was bigger with 110v, and isnt it the amps that kill?

Al :)

Al,

It is the current that flows through vital parts of your body that count and that current is only in the order of milliamps. The higher the voltage you apply to parts of your body the more current will flow through your body.

For example, a 240V circuit carrying 30 Amps will harm you just as much as a 240V circuit carrying 1 Amp.

You of all people should be extra careful wearing all that foil. The additional skin contact area will allow even more current to flow through your vital parts. :o :o :o

[zenwood]

Whats a BORG?
US-speak for Home Depot (=Bunnings), i.e. a huge hardware store franchise that define standardly available tools and fittings for the home. A take-off on the Star Trek 'Borg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg_%28Star_Trek%29)' species (a race of cyborgs, or cybernetic organisms) whose goal was to take over all other species and assimilate them into the Borg Collective. Individuals within the Borg lost all individuality, and became part of a 'hive'-mind. Their catch-cry is: 'resistance is futile'.

[ozwinner]

See, never too old to learn, ya young whipper snipper...

Al :U

[chrisp]

I sense that in OZ there is a general fear of electrons by home owners and as one gets near electrons in large numbers, the fear increases. I'm really surprised at the number of times that forum members suggest that a sparky be engaged. I guess what I'm asking, is this "engage a sparky" philosophy a regulatory thing or a union issue or just ordinary Mushroom theory? (Keep them in the dark and feed them cow pies.)

Rich,

It is great to hear an "outsiders" view on our electrical situation. It is also interesting to see how quickly other posters will support the "call an electrician" creed and quote its "the law" without question. I do think this forum (or is it Australia) has a hang up about electricity. People run scared - even those who know something about electricity - and state "call an electrician".

Yet ask a question about gas, water, storm water, sewage, roofing - all covered by just as strict laws in Oz - and the replies come flooding in!

I cannot see what is wrong with allowing people to discuss, and understand, electrical matters just like we discuss and learn about any other topic? I can see someone replying with the "electricity is dangerous" augment, but statistics don't validate their concern. The forum seems to be completely oblivious dangerous of the advice provided on this forum on non-electrical matters, but hypersensitive to the perceived danger of electrical advice.

I think the regulations are there to protect a closed shop - it's time to question the validity of the regulations.

[dazzler]

Its the law and is designed to protect everyone I guess.

As a non sparky I am happy to run wires through walls for the sparky to wire up, swap a bayonet fitting for a downlight by following the wiring diagrams on the packet, replace single powerpoints for double and stuff like that.

Anything more complicated and Ill pay for a sparky.

Just my 2volts. :)

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Yet ask a question about gas, water, storm water, sewage, roofing - all covered by just as strict laws in Oz - and the replies come flooding in!

Hmmm... no... I'll beg to disagree with that. Gas is another one very few of us will touch. Like electricity, it's usually "call a gas-fitter."

The rest will generally cause discomforts at worst, but gas and electrons can be killers with just the smallest mistake. I don't think it has anything to do with "the law" or that we're afraid of being sued,etc. etc. It's more like these are subjects that if someone has to ask basic questions, they really shouldn't be playing with it in the first place!

(Now, when a more complex question comes up when the person obviously knows what they're talking about, those threads can be rather more involved and interesting! :wink:)

[AlexS]

...if someone has to ask basic questions, they really shouldn't be playing with it in the first place!



Now that's wisdom.:2tsup:

I guess the difference between a qualified sparky and someone who reckons he knows how to wire his house is that the sparky has at least shown that he knows how to do the job, and has had some formal training. It may not be a universal safeguard, but it is hopefully some protection.

Just because a layman is confident that he knows how to do a job, and even if he has read the 'layman's guide', there's no guarantee that he is really capable. I've seen many things done by handymen who reckoned they knew how to do a job (and done them myself) that were either incompetent or downright dangerous.

[munruben]

I would never attempt to install complicated electrical fittings and I think this where commonsense should prevail and the laws are in place in this country for good reason, however, its not difficult to change a power point or change the plug on a kitchen appliance (illegal in Aus) so if we want to obey the laws of the land, we pay $45 to have a licensed sparky change the plug. Maybe the laws should allow us to do simple electrical tasks like that

[Harry72]

Where can we find out the statistics of electrocution/fires caused by non-qualified work, Oz Vs USA so to speak.

[joe greiner]

Hmmm... no... I'll beg to disagree with that. Gas is another one very few of us will touch. Like electricity, it's usually "call a gas-fitter."

The rest will generally cause discomforts at worst, but gas and electrons can be killers with just the smallest mistake. I don't think it has anything to do with "the law" or that we're afraid of being sued,etc. etc. It's more like these are subjects that if someone has to ask basic questions, they really shouldn't be playing with it in the first place!

(Now, when a more complex question comes up when the person obviously knows what they're talking about, those threads can be rather more involved and interesting! :wink:)

Ditto with structural engineering. That's why I never (or at least rarely) give any hard numbers; concepts OK.

Joe

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Where can we find out the statistics of electrocution/fires caused by non-qualified work, Oz Vs USA so to speak.


Ahhh... you want Facts! You're in the wrong section, that's three threads over, just after Drama, Drivel and Dingo, but before Fairy Tales, Fantasy and Fiction. This is Misinformation, Obfuscation and Speculation. :D

[rrich]

I understand now! Perfectly illogical.

[rat52]

One of the problems I have noticed is that it is very difficult to get all the information to give a informed answer to questions.

Unless you have a trade background, or at least knowledge of the subject, it is difficult to ask the right question in the first place.

[silentC]

There are two issues here: one is whether to give advice at all, the other is the disdain that some posters show towards the "call a sparky" response that inevitably follows these questions.

If you want to give advice, go for your life. I'm not going to stop you. Just be mindful of the forum rules in that regard. But when I say "call a sparky" I'm exercising my right not to give advice (which I might add I'm not qualified to give anyway) and implicit in that is my opinion that others should do the same. That's what it is: an opinion - which the laws of Australia happen to back up at present.

Whether you believe that people should be allowed to do their own electrical work or not is immaterial. The fact of the matter is that, at present, they are prohibited from doing so. It's clear cut. I don't care whether wrong advice might lead to death or injury or not, that isn't at issue. Doing your own wiring is illegal. No one can debate that.

[Daddles]

Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.

This was done by someone presumably who 'knew what he was doing' - A mate in Melbourne wanted to replace a power point but found that the wires to the existing power point were all the same colour ... and were seperate wires, not bundled. So he climbed into the roof and found where the wires came up into the ceiling, where he found where someone had joined the new run to an existing run ... by seperating the individual wires at one point, driving a nail through each wire, and then wrapping the bared end of the new wire around the nail :oo: Fair dinkum. Me mate had lived there for five years. He called a sparky straight away ... and needed to have so much of the house rewired (not all the 'fixes' were that dodgy) that he wound up getting the whole house done properly.

Okay, we're not all at that level, but in my last place, I had to replace a motion detector. When I pulled the old one off, the colour coding was all wrong. I wired the new one up according to the book ... and blew the fuse. Wired it up as done originally, and it worked. A year later, when the place was extended, I mentioned this to the sparky, who had kittens when he had a look - apparently colour blindness wasn't the only problem the 'expert' who'd done it suffered from ... and he probably thought he was doing the right thing too.

It's no flamin' wonder I'm scared of 'lectricity and stubbornly cling to the 'smoke theory'.

Richard

[wattlewemake]

Quite a few years ago now, I was on a construction job in townsville. A couple of new blokes started on the job. One was an aussie who had just returned from the states. He had a yank sparky with him. Cant remember but I think he was a rellie to the aussie.
We had just finished putting up a light circuit but we had made a blew and the circuit didnt work. ( happens sometimes) We had been telling the yank dont test like you do at home - ie dont wet your fingers and touch the wires to see if theres voltage, use a multimeter.
But this yank knew better and he touched the wires. A over t with a horribly stunned look on his face. We couldnt do anything but laugh and then give him an earful. He was a bit timid after that and used a meter from then on. Reckons it was his worst shock ever by a long shot.

The difference between oz and the yanks is mainly the frequency. Here it is 50 hertz and over there it is 60 hertz. 50 hertz is more in line with your hearts natural cycle and has a bad tendancy to mess it up where 60 hertz doesnt. 50 milli amps is enough to kill you they say. Thats why they set the safety switches to 30 milliamps. So you dont get enough to cause a fatal shock. And that only works if you are a heathly person btw.

[rat52]

1amp for 1sec is enough to send the heart into fibrilation where it just flutters and doesn't beat.

Min fuse is 10amp so do the math. It's nasty.

As an aside, I was talking to a lady owner while doing carpentry work on her house and she said I didn''t have to use my earth leakage power box as she had one installed in the fuse box 6mths ago.

I asked if she had ever checked it.

No, didn't know she had to so we went to check it and it wouldn't trip.

2days later she rang to thank me as the "tradesman" who had installed it had not checked the earthing which was connected to the water pipes. The problem was the water pipes were PVC (plastic) hence no earth.

There is probably a moral to this story:B

[pedro the swift]

probbaly not so much the frequency but the voltage. Yanks run at 120 volts compared to our 240 volts. It would drive twice as much current through him and he would certainly be A/T.

[silentC]

2days later she rang to thank me as the "tradesman" who had installed it had not checked the earthing which was connected to the water pipes. The problem was the water pipes were PVC (plastic) hence no earth.
I suspect there is more to that story. But if a licensed sparky installed an earth leakage detector and didn't test it, then he probably should have his license taken away.

We had RCDs installed in our place a few years ago and the sparky installed a new earth stake at the same time (it was earthed through the plumbing previously). He said that if he did any work on electricals at all, he had to upgrade it to current standards.

[rat52]

I agree Silent, there would have to be more to it, but that is all I know.

[rat52]

Call me pendantic but when it comes to things that bite I don't take anyones word. I prefer to check myself.

[Rossluck]

I had a rather telling lesson myself a few months ago. I bought a machine that I since learned pulls more power than my circuit breakers can handle. But in the course of discovering this, I had to run back through the wiring looking for the problem.

When I undid a three-phase outlet to check the wiring, I discovered an absolute debacle of pathetic electrical work. It then dawned on me that it was my own work of a few years ago. :oo: An electrican wired the shed, and all I had to do was to later add an outlet that I'd bought. It wasn't pretty, and I've now sworn off doing even the most basic stuff.

But the bottom line in all of this is that if you ask any (honest) electrician if he or she ever cops electric shocks, they'll say "yes, it's part of the job". Well if the professionals get them, what chance do we have of avoiding them?

[rrich]

Doing your own wiring is illegal. No one can debate that.

And the LAW is the LAW whether you agree with it or not.

[Pat]

Rich, I work for a large electricity distribution company as a clerk. I am friendly with a large number of sparkies, within the company. They all tell me to give them a call if I need anything done to my house, no matter how trivial. I also hear the stories of the "bites" they get. Having been bitten myself, in my younger, dumber days, I have an understanding of what they mean. I also talk to the inspectors, whom the police call when a "DIY" electrician gets a serious bite and the police need a report for the coroner!

[Honorary Bloke]

I will preface this by saying that I do a lot of my own (simple) electrical work, if I am comfortable with the task at hand. But . . .

You never know when someone else has done some dodgy work, especially in an older house. I removed a ceiling fan in our kitchen only to discover that the wires just poked through the gyprock and the base of the fan was simply screwed to a joist. :oo:

Then again, one of our baths had apparently been "renoed" at some point and a door from one bedroom into the bath closed off and a small closet built-in. Fine, except the overhead light was on a two-way switch and now one switch is in the closet which faces the bedroom! Just imagine you're a boofhead who works on the lights just by turning off the switch (which I used to do sometimes) instead of the breaker and someone else goes in the closet and flips the switch. :oo:

So I'm all for reasonable DIY electrical work, but be da*n sure you have cut the breaker and very sure what you are doing. And know the code! No cheating.

[This post should in no way be taken as advice to break any Australian law, federal, state, or local. :D :wink: ]

Also, had a sparky here last week to wire up the new A/C and asked about running more power to my shed. His first question was: "Will you be wanting it inspected?" Followed quickly by: "It will be done right, but if you are having it inspected, it will cost more." Go figure. I suppose he meant that they would have to pull a permit from the county (local council) and that would run up the cost.

[johnc]

Pure stupidity can get us zapped even when it is done properly. Working back late one night the cleaners asked if I'd change a globe in the loo oyster light. No worries, grabbed the ladder and globe removed the cover in the gloom and grabbed the bakalite with one hand to discover that most of the black had gone and it is not an good idea to close your hand over the live terminals (guess who didn't check the light switch). First time i've been thrown off a ladder, and the poor old heart was all over the place for a while. Since then we have put in a new fuse box with the earth leakage switches, and had the light fitting replaced at the same time.

Neither dodgy appliances nor dodgy work mix with power and like many I've heard some amazing stories from the odd sparky about handyman created death traps, it amazes me with some of the questions posted on the forum the extent some gormless fools will go to in putting not just themselves, but future occupants and tradesman at risk simply because they want to have a go.

[Toolin Around]

For what it's worth.

Australia is far quicker than North America, in general, to enact rules and regs to such subjects and situations. NA wide will eventually go the same route. But also... I lived the first 40 years of my life in Canada (same electrical as US) and when I got here I worked for an electical firm for the first 4 months. My experience was that the basics were much simpler in NA as compared to here. I was able to pick up the basics really quickly there which would allow me to do all wiring I needed. But after four months full time work here I still wasn't all that sure of what I needed to know. So for the most part I leave it along.

[rat52]

John,
just because a rcd unit is fitted does not mean the light circuit is protected as some electricians do not connect it

The reason for this is if the toaster trips it at night then you are left stumbling in the dark and for an elderly person this is a greater hazard than a risk of shock from light fittings.

Also for the rcd to work it has to detect a leakage to earth so if you are insulated ie; wearing rubber boots and standing on a wooden floor, then grab the active and neutral wires there is a good chance you will get shocked.

Never assume anything. As I said before, if it bites check it. Use a meter don't assume that some has not crossed the wires somewhere .